New Head of Creative is...

[The Butcher]

People keep saying Jim Ross. I know he has a great eye for talent, and no doubt he'd be an asset to TNA, but has he got any creative experience whatsoever?

He could always just re-hash the shit out of everything he saw in Mid-South during his years there. Most fans wouldn't know any better.

 

[BrianFNPillman]

He could always just re-hash the shit out of everything he saw in Mid-South during his years there. Most fans wouldn't know any better.

Hey if that meant a return for Dark Journey I'll take it.

I've never really got the whole 'Russo is better with a filter' argument... I mean there's a degree of truth to it - but there's a degree of truth to it for everyone, and almost everyone demands a filter considerably more than Russo.

I think that stems entirely from a lot of the "shock TV" angles that he wrote during the Attitude Era. Granted one can argue that maybe somebody higher up should have gone "...this isn't a good idea" but at the time everyone was getting TV time regardless of how terrible the ideas were so to some degree you can't argue that he does get results. It's just his sort of signature "Russo Style" gimmicks he's lumped with (*object* on a Pole matches and so on and so forth) but again, you could argue he's the idea man, they want content for a TV show and he's giving it to them. Maybe somebody else higher up, booking agents etc should have said "well, do you really think fans want to see this?"

But then, TNA's management system is the reason we're so pissed at them isn't it?

I can't argue with your point about 2006 - 2011, it was my favorite period of time for TNA mostly because it caused a complete Jarrett de-push and he wasn't ruining every aspect of programming by convincing himself he and he alone was the reason people tuned into TNA. But you are right, post-Born Again Russo was far better than pre-Born Again Russo, even if some of the same problems did occur, like I said, maybe somebody higher up should have taken action.

This doesn't make me a Russo fan by any stretch, I still have my reservations about him. But I see where you're coming from, it is solid facts after all.

 

[The Butcher]

Even fewer people have undertaken such a challenge and been successful; again, Vince Russo has. Vince Russo wrote TNA pretty much by himself between the years of 2006 and 2011; otherwise known as the most successful years in TNA's history. Russo worked for TNA from 2006, where the average rating was a 0.89 and left in 2011 when the rating was at an all time high of 1.16.

Cornette was there as well from '06 to '09, and Hogan and Bischoff arrived in early 2010. Russo didn't do anything anywhere by himself in regards to booking.

 

[Gelgarin]

I'm pretty sure Cornette never held an actual creative position backstage - he was an on air talent. All the noises coming out of the company - both positive and negative - where that Russo was booking the show more or less by himself.

 

[The Butcher]

I'm pretty sure Cornette never held an actual creative position backstage - he was an on air talent. All the noises coming out of the company - both positive and negative - where that Russo was booking the show more or less by himself.

I don't buy that Jim Cornette and Jeff Jarrett just sat there and offered nothing. Maybe they didn't, but I'm sure you can understand my skepticism.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

I've never really got the whole 'Russo is better with a filter' argument... I mean there's a degree of truth to it - but there's a degree of truth to it for everyone, and almost everyone demands a filter considerably more than Russo.

Once again you have to put aside anecdotes and subjective assessments and simply look at records and experience. Very few people out there have booked a weekly wrestling broadcast single handedly for an extended length of time - Vince Russo has.

Even fewer people have undertaken such a challenge and been successful; again, Vince Russo has. Vince Russo wrote TNA pretty much by himself between the years of 2006 and 2011; otherwise known as the most successful years in TNA's history. Russo worked for TNA from 2006, where the average rating was a 0.89 and left in 2011 when the rating was at an all time high of 1.16.

Now obviously this is a child like assessment of the ratings, and attributing everything to Russo is ludicrous, but the point I am making is that Vince Russo has booked a highly successful wrestling broadcast by him self, which is something that almost nobody else has done.

Paul Heymon couldn't do it. Jim Ross wouldn't know where to start. Jim Cornett couldn't even book Ring of Honour, and most of this forum could book Ring of Honour.

Russo has the credentials and the experience; your favorite booker doesn't.

Dutch Mantel did a shoot interview with Kayfabe Commentaries and went through the process of how he built the Knockouts division in the early days. Cornette was still there and Jarrett still had power, they both entrusted him with a budget to find some female wrestlers, assign characters, determine their place in the roster and book the matches. He'd complete control.

Vince Russo on the other hand would hand up the scripts a week before each taping, Jeff Jarrett would spend hours picking through them and removing certain parts, hand the scripts back to Russo a couple days before tapings with notes on what he removed and why, plus an example of what could meet better. They'd have a meeting the day the scripts were to be finalized with several others present and run through everything, removing certain parts and adding others.

Now, there is a big difference between how Mantel's booking of the women's division and Russo's of the entire show were handled.

He could always just re-hash the shit out of everything he saw in Mid-South during his years there. Most fans wouldn't know any better.

Jim Cornette re-hashed Smokey Mountain Wrestling in ROH, yano where its left him? To the point none of the top three promotions will probably never have a thing to do with him again. He preached on how wrestling was being done wrong and it needed other ideoligies, was brought into a company just after it had been acquired by a multi-million dollar broadcasting company and still had a pretty large roster and shit all over it.

In the age of the Internet if someone notices a re-hash soon enough everyone does.

 

[The Butcher]

Jim Cornette re-hashed Smokey Mountain Wrestling in ROH, yano where its left him? To the point none of the top three promotions will probably never have a thing to do with him again. He preached on how wrestling was being done wrong and it needed other ideoligies, was brought into a company just after it had been acquired by a multi-million dollar broadcasting company and still had a pretty large roster and shit all over it.

In the age of the Internet if someone notices a re-hash soon enough everyone does.

That's not completely fair. For one thing, Jim Cornette lost his cotton-picking mind at some point over the last 5 years. So far as I can tell, J.R. still has all of his marbles. For another, Mid-South was better than Smokey Mountain.

I'll concede to being facetious in that post you quoted, though. Like I said initially regarding this, Jim Ross is a creative non-entity as far as I'm concerned. Speculating about him running TNA is moot.

 

[BrianFNPillman]

Slightly off subject to what we've been discussing. But if Jeff Jarrett acted as a filter of sorts for Russo's ideas, making amendments and changes and what not...Who is going to play that part with Bischoff?

 

[Starkist]

Slightly off subject to what we've been discussing. But if Jeff Jarrett acted as a filter of sorts for Russo's ideas, making amendments and changes and what not...Who is going to play that part with Bischoff?

Probably Hogan.

 

[Dirk]

Take this question for the ignorant cynicism it is, but by the looks of it, Bischoff, JR, Russo, Cornette, Jarrett and Heyman are the only people ever writing promotions? If one of those names gets fired, another takes his place, sort of like a horrible, unbeatable HYDRA tag-team? Surely in a country as great as America, these names can't be all the best of the rest? I'll go sit in the corner now...

 

[Harthan]

Take this question for the ignorant cynicism it is, but by the looks of it, Bischoff, JR, Russo, Cornette, Jarrett and Heyman are the only people ever writing promotions? If one of those names gets fired, another takes his place, sort of like a horrible, unbeatable HYDRA tag-team? Surely in a country as great as America, these names can't be all the best of the rest? I'll go sit in the corner now...

The "problem" is that promoting successful independent wrestling companies has become a relatively comfortable paying job. The people who really have the talent to head up a creative department not among those six you listed are mostly the people running the better indy feds right now, and none of them are showing much inclination they want any more than what they've got. So the only other recourse is to wait for someone on somebody's writing staff to show enough brilliance and ability to lead that they can take over that role. Until Vince or Dixie decides such a person has emerged, though, they won't get an opportunity.

 

[BrianFNPillman]

Probably Hogan.

Well then may God have mercy on us all.

I jest, but I really don't think in any situation it should be like that. No on-air talent should be in charge of the overall product, it's the same reason they shouldn't have complete creative control, they can't be responsible with it.

 

[shattered dreams]

I used to be in the could JR really book a show crowd but after hearing him on Austin's podcast I was impressed enough that I think he could if he wanted to. Do I think he wants to? Probably not. Even if he did there are still plenty of reasons to question if his affinity for the old ways would be a hindrance.

The Russo filter parrots are exactly what I am talking about when I mention faux experts. If you think Russo killed WCW then you might be a redneck but you are definitely as smart as one.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Trouble is Russo did need a filter. His asinine stories in WCW didn't help their product. Sure oversized contracts were the arrow through the heart, but his convulsed sense of where wrestling was going made it hard.

No I haven't just seen the Monday Night Wars.




I've read his book too. Therefore I'm the Gareth Brooks on this now.

 

[Nate DaMac]

For the record, I think Jim Cornette's a fucking tool. I've been watching his shoots and whatnot recently and while he's pretty entertaining, his desire for wrestling to be exactly how it was in the 70s and 80s really gets annoying. I see why no one wants to fuck with him anymore.

 

[shattered dreams]

Trouble is Russo did need a filter. His asinine stories in WCW didn't help their product. Sure oversized contracts were the arrow through the heart, but his convulsed sense of where wrestling was going made it hard.

Most people have little to no understanding of when Russo was in charge of what in WCW. People just like to repeat what wrestlers say because they think that makes them smart, the only problem is that most wrestlers are stupid. Russo had one of the better grasps on where wrestling needed to go that I ever heard but the boys in the back didn't seem interested in it and that was a large part of the first decline after the attitude era. Not the diminishing effects of shock tv but the failure to make the necessary transitions until it was too late. That and not trying harder to preserve the WCW fanbase. Something that Russo wanted to try again but Vince wouldn't listen. Which Vince did history vindicate on that topic? Sure seems like it was Russo, not the "business genius."

 

[BrianFNPillman]

Most people have little to no understanding of when Russo was in charge of what in WCW. People just like to repeat what wrestlers say because they think that makes them smart, the only problem is that most wrestlers are stupid.

Right, here's the thing though. The majority of us here, or I'd like to think the majority of us anyway, don't think Russo killed WCW. The Time Warner merger killed WCW...that and spending 60 million dollars in a year, but that's just poor mismanagement.

I will argue with you to the end of time about Russo needing a filter. He does need somebody above him to explain why certain aspects of his writing style don't work or won't transfer over to TV, because at the core of things (and this is why, in my opinion it didn't go over in WCW) was because the audience still want wrestling. WWF fans at the time were used to "Crash TV." They had been slowly conditioned to Russos faced pace "soap opera for guys" approach to programming, the loyal WCW fanbase were not. And with management breathing down his neck to get results like he did with WWF things just went insane.

That being said, I've also heard the stories about Russo coming back to WWE in 2002 and proposing to Vince a restarting of the InVasion now they had top tier WCW talent under contract and Vince immediately demoting him, clearly you can write what you want creatively in WWE, so long as you don't think you can do it better than the boss.

Russo had one of the better grasps on where wrestling needed to go that I ever heard but the boys in the back didn't seem interested in it and that was a large part of the first decline after the attitude era. Not the diminishing effects of shock tv but the failure to make the necessary transitions until it was too late.

I genuinely want to know where you think the business needed to go? Not to be a dick or anything, but the whole idea that it needed to become more "drama orientated" is ridiculous. I mean for Gods sake it's that kind of logic that turned Smackdown into the Jeremy Kyle Show with Rey and Eddie fighting over the paternity of Rey's son Dominic.

That and not trying harder to preserve the WCW fanbase.
Something that Russo wanted to try again but Vince wouldn't listen. Which Vince did history vindicate on that topic? Sure seems like it was Russo, not the "business genius."

Nobody is going to argue with that, Vince buying out all the competition and then making them look like utter jokes in comparison to the WWF roster at the time was petty and probably did alienate a lot of WCW/ECW fans. Hell, that's the sole reason the Jarretts banded together to form TNA in the first place.

 

[shattered dreams]

Right, here's the thing though. The majority of us here, or I'd like to think the majority of us anyway, don't think Russo killed WCW. The Time Warner merger killed WCW...that and spending 60 million dollars in a year, but that's just poor mismanagement.

In my experience here the majority do not believe the merger was the main cause.

I will argue with you to the end of time about Russo needing a filter. He does need somebody above him to explain why certain aspects of his writing style don't work or won't transfer over to TV, because at the core of things (and this is why, in my opinion it didn't go over in WCW) was because the audience still want wrestling. WWF fans at the time were used to "Crash TV." They had been slowly conditioned to Russos faced pace "soap opera for guys" approach to programming, the loyal WCW fanbase were not. And with management breathing down his neck to get results like he did with WWF things just went insane.

So when do you think Russo was in charge of what and then tell me the results he produced?

I genuinely want to know where you think the business needed to go? Not to be a dick or anything, but the whole idea that it needed to become more "drama orientated" is ridiculous. I mean for Gods sake it's that kind of logic that turned Smackdown into the Jeremy Kyle Show with Rey and Eddie fighting over the paternity of Rey's son Dominic.

It isn't ridiculous. Wrasslin failed. In the current WWE product they don't even say wrestling, yet this "disdain" for the business aka knowing what was necessary is the type of thing wrestlers hated Russo for. Almost everything Russo was saying needed to change about the product WWE eventually did. Just because he occasionally did something that didn't work as well doesn't mean he needs a filter more than anyone else. McMahon has taken it too far and made mistakes himself.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

I've got to admit, for a second there I was crapping myself when I read the title.

 

[Harthan]

I've got to admit, for a second there I was crapping myself when I read the title.

I also very briefly thought this was in reference to WZCW.

Don't worry, you'd be a far superior HOC to Bischoff. Although I'd be very legitimately interested in what Bischoff would say if we could get him to examine WZCW for an hour...

 

[Viola Moonlight]

Considering his character rep has "less" authority than Evan Bourne, it would be interesting.

 

[Miko]

I also very briefly thought this was in reference to WZCW.

Don't worry, you'd be a far superior HOC to Bischoff. Although I'd be very legitimately interested in what Bischoff would say if we could get him to examine WZCW for an hour...

*Insert Bischoff putting the title on Joseph Rios joke here* right... Right?

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Most people have little to no understanding of when Russo was in charge of what in WCW. People just like to repeat what wrestlers say because they think that makes them smart, the only problem is that most wrestlers are stupid. Russo had one of the better grasps on where wrestling needed to go that I ever heard but the boys in the back didn't seem interested in it and that was a large part of the first decline after the attitude era. Not the diminishing effects of shock tv but the failure to make the necessary transitions until it was too late. That and not trying harder to preserve the WCW fanbase. Something that Russo wanted to try again but Vince wouldn't listen. Which Vince did history vindicate on that topic? Sure seems like it was Russo, not the "business genius."

Well then none of our info holds then coz its ALL heresay. Interviews, shoots, documentaries; and calling wrestlers' stupid makes you look stupid. Stop trying to act cool you!

The thing is I do think Russo was a good mind, but he needed someone to bounce his ideas off. Shock TV will never go out of fashion buddy, its just he was oversaturating it and he started catering to smarks with his 'break the 4th wall' refrences.


It was always an uphill task to save WCW when Russo and Bischoff were brought in. Goldberg had lost, nWo was bloated as shit, no new break through star were really developed, he was dealt a difficult hand for sure; but what he did to counter that, just sucked harder.

 

[BrianFNPillman]

It was always an uphill task to save WCW when Russo and Bischoff were brought in. Goldberg had lost, nWo was bloated as shit, no new break through star were really developed, he was dealt a difficult hand for sure; but what he did to counter that, just sucked harder.

I love how the nWo revolutionised WCW and then basically brought it to it's knees all in the space of about 4 years. Goldberg as a character was on borrowed time anyway, I mean honestly, for how long would his undefeated streak have lasted? How long can you watch a dude come in and beat someone with 3 moves then leave? I mean Goldberg is basically John Cena without all the foreplay. And that's not a knock on Cena either. I don't like the way he's booked but at least you get your money's worth with him.

Also, the New Blood/Millionaires Club had legs. It's just a shame the New Blood were the heels; illogical booking or what. But again, I put that on Hogan wanting to continue his "cool dad" gimmick or whatever.

So when do you think Russo was in charge of what and then tell me the results he produced?

Russo was in charge creatively for most of 1999, sent home, then brought back for 2000 where he did the only sensible thing anyone could do for WCW which was piss off Hogan enough to leave because he wasn't the ratings God he thought he was anymore.

But off the top of my head I remember around that time; him booking himself to win the World Title as a fluke, ridiculous stipulation matches, G.I Bro, downright stupid swerve/screwjob finishes (that being said, it was a staple of WCW since the nWo so you could scrap that), Halloween Havoc 2000, Vampiro actually getting a push, Juvi getting a push, Scott Steiner being about as in control as a pissed off King Kong, Tank Abbott (not necessarily a bad thing) Goldberg turning Bret Hart into a slobbering mess (goodnight, sweet prince) and Jeff Jarrett being on the top of the card.

Now, I'm not saying all those things were Russo, but that's what I remember from 1999/200-ish era when he was notably (or meant to be) running the ship. I'm not saying they're all bad ideas either. Some of them had merit, some not so much (mostly Jeff Jarrett, fuck that guy) what I'm saying is, he did try clearly, but I think chucking all the shit at the wall you can to see what sticks is a terrible way to book. It's what led to the WWF's downfall early on in the 90's.

It isn't ridiculous. Wrasslin failed. In the current WWE product they don't even say wrestling, yet this "disdain" for the business aka knowing what was necessary is the type of thing wrestlers hated Russo for. Almost everything Russo was saying needed to change about the product WWE eventually did. Just because he occasionally did something that didn't work as well doesn't mean he needs a filter more than anyone else. McMahon has taken it too far and made mistakes himself.

I never said he needed a filter more than anyone else. I think pretty much the best writing is done when there's someone to bounce ideas off in all walks of life. In face I'd agree that Vince basically having final say on everything and having a creative team of Yes Men is what's dragged the product down over the past few years with it's stop-start booking of performers and bi-polar quality in episodes of RAW.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

The only issues I really ever had with Russo were that he rarely wrote for long-term arcs, and his propensity to suspend objects (titles, contracts, brief cases, etc) from a pole in the corner. But mostly the non long-term writing thing.

Most of his feuds and main stories would take you from post-PPV through three to six weeks, roughly, to the next PPV, or through it to a second. After that, it was onto another thing. I really can't recall many feuds of any type — stable wars, heel/face, whatever — that broke the two month mark in his story-telling.