*MERGED* Randy Orton Face Turn Discussion

[newteenforbb]

Do what?

....face turn.

Is it time for the WWE to just go ahead and do it? Let us look at exactly what is going down right now. Of course, this post includes -spoilers- for the Elimination Chamber PPV.

Obviously, Orton got some huge cheers tonight because the PPV was in St. Louis. I would have been shocked to see him not receive a decent pop from his hometown. That being said, the cheers/chants/signs have been going for a few weeks now. And not just against Sheamus (which results in cheers automatically) but against other opponents as well. Anyone who watches RAW can see the audience shifting more and more with each passing week toward cheering for Orton.

Now, we have the situation with Legacy. The early rumor going around the net was to have an Orton/Ted/Cody feud with Orton as the heel. However, it doesn't seem as though Ted and/or Cody can go over right now as a face. All they might need to do is have Orton do something absolutely horrible to one of them and it could work but it might just be easier to keep Ted/Cody as bad guys at this point. At least as heels, they do get some heat from the audience. Also, Ted's rumored face turn was due to the release of his direct to DVD film and the time has come and gone with that, so it is not really necessary to turn him now if you are concerned about DVD sales.

The other issue is where you see future prospects for Orton. If he remains heel (especially on RAW), you have this immediate feud with Legacy. Once that ends though, you are basically back to square one with feuds. You have HHH, Cena... I don't see the "face" side of RAW changing anytime soon. However, if Randy was a face, things could get interesting.

All of that changes if they decide to move Orton to SD following WrestleMania. If he goes, I imagine staying heel is vital because faces on SD (Taker, Edge, Mysterio) would all provide fresh feuds for Orton.

So...while lots of questions remain and nothing is as easy as just doing it, what do you guys think? Should WWE just do it now and see where it goes or wait and continue things as they are?

 

[Papa Shango]

I honestly don't see why not. Orton's had a fanbase for quite awhile now. And following Legacy's actions at the PPV, it seems as though they might be heading towards turning Orton face and keeping Legacy as a heel tag team. Honestly, I just don't think the major audience is ready to accept either Rhodes OR Dibiase as a top singles competitor.

They could just make Orton a tweener, which he pretty much is right now, willing to fight heel or face. It works for him. Of course, nowadays "tweener" is just a way to say "face" without having to put a real label on it. The tweener role fits Orton perfectly, and it allows him to keep his fans from turning on him. Because:

Fact: The IWC hates top babyfaces
Fact: The IWC loves douchy heelish tweeners
Fact: If Orton turns face, the IWC will start to hate him.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

The WWE doesn't need to do a damn thing with Randy Orton. They should just leave him be, and let the crowd react the way they want to. I don't want the WWE creative team messing this guy up. He is on a serious roll right now, and I don't see a ceiling in sight for him.

I think they just need to put him into some fresh feuds, and let the crowd decide. His gimmick doesn't need to change at all. Let him be the "bad guy" and if the crowd likes that, good. We don't need Vince, or whoever is in charge of characters over there now-a-days, screwing this up. If they turn him "face" like Cena or Mysterio, it won't work. He needs to have an edge.

I didn't think so at first, but he shares a lot of similiarities with Steve Austin, and what I mean by that is how the crowd reacts to the things he does. Orton is a bit more on the evil, sadistic side than Austin was, but the crowd (mostly the 15 and over crowd) seems to be into it. Just let him roll with it. Put him in feuds with whoever, I don't think it really matters. I mean, if you put him in a feud with Cena, of course the kids are going to hate him, but adults are going to love him.

So, I really hope they don't turn him into a "face" character. Don't mess with his character, just leave it alone, he's perfect where he is.

 

[jason305]

I agree with Nickb03 don't touch him, Orton is by far my favourite in the WWE and has been for a long time now and they should just let him be himself, if they turn him fully face then what's going to happen? well ask MVP, ask Morrison, and ask D-X. I know it's all about the kids nowadays but the WWE must remember that they have a adult fan base aswell. Just let Orton be himself and let his character be the guy that just does whatever benefits him and let the crowd decide whether they want to cheer or boo him. I really like though what they doing with him, Orton doesn't need the title and keeping him out of it for now freshens things up, I also think that is why he is staying over with the crowds too. I hope on Raw he punts the hell out of Cody or Dibiase haha

 

[xxdef25xx]

I also agree with nickb03..and i say this from the very very bottom of my heart when i say screw all the little kiddies and they're future wet dreams..i mean seriously we all complain and make suggestions are how to "FIX" someones character or style but honestly lets face it there is nothing and i mean nothing to change about Randy his style is perfect for him and this PG era for the simple fact he's pretty much anti PG..i mean think about it the man should be the poster boy for when the E decides to move back into TV-14 because he is just that...a wrestler for the adults, can you think of anyone else DDT'ing a woman and kissing her afterwards or even throwning a fit with profainty after a botch(Kofi on Raw, by the way i didn't agree with).who's do adult really have on a entertainment level? Y2J? sure if he can channel himself back to his pre undisputed champion days..Edge? ok ya got me there deff a closeee 2nd..Cena? well honestly i just don't think Vinnie Mack will ever let is golden boy go heel and be what he was when he came up plus every1 else after him is either to green or to old and won't be around by the time the era is upon us..So lets us all enjoy the man that is RKO

 

[Davi323]

Randy Orton's cheers over the last few weeks may be more telling about the fans acceptance of Sheamus as champ than it does Orton's popularity. Orton has been cheered lately...but who has been feuding with? A guy that very few people accepted as a world level champion. I suspect that other than last night (of course he gets cheered in St. Louis) part of the reason he was getting cheered is because fans really, really, don't like Sheamus as champ, and would cheer anyone going after him. The problem with an Orton face turn, is how the hell do you make it believable? With all of the crap Orton has done to people, with all the devious manipulations, etc, how can you convince ANYONE that Orton has suddenly decided to be more of a good guy than a bad guy? Orton is nothing but a bully, who runs away like a good heel when the odds turn against him. Doing that, he is brilliant. As a face? I just don't see it. They are clearly building up an Orton/Legacy or Orton/DiBiase match at WM26, but, how could he possibly be the face in that situation, after the way he treats both Cody and Ted?

Basically, an Orton face turn would not only make no sense, it would be completely unbelievable.

 

[Mustang Sally]

I'm liking Orton as a 'tweener. When he was squaring off against Sheamus, I honestly didn't know who to root for.... and that's a refreshing change from the good guy/bad guy scenarios we've been watching all these years.

At this point, no one knows which way Randy is going to go and I think the writers are doing a great job with his character. For a long time, even as we knew that Orton was going to eventually break with Rhodes and DiBiase, who could foresee that the two of them might end up heels while Orton might become a face?

Through all his "punts" and sneak attacks, I've always wanted to root for Orton. He just kept giving me multiple reasons not to.

Keep us guessing, WWE.

 

[sevastra82]

Orton is definately teetering on the "tweener" aspect. He gets serious heat (of course, due to his feuds with Cena etc), but I've started to notice that he was getting more and more face pops with his mini feud with Sheamus. He's really starting to take on that "rogue" persona, where he's neither face nor heel. Thats a very tough role to pull off, but Orton can definately do it.

Now, with Legacy being his next feud...is Legacy face or heel? They are in the same boat. I think they should keep Legacy heel (DiBiase/Rhodes are actually helping eachother out IMO by staying together), and Orton feuding with them would keep his heel persona, but also give him a sprinkle of face persona.

Just goes to show you how damn good Orton is. Very few wrestlers could pull this off and be legit at it. Its going to be fun to see what they do with Ortons character.

 

[Theo Mays]

Orton has had a huge following for a good amount of years now and it seems to have been brought out in full stream as of late. I for one would love to see an Orton face turn, as I think his first one wasn't great due to the fact that he was Triple H's whopping boy and just a step stool for Trips to get another World Title. I think this one would be much more successful now that Orton has flourished into a star. Plus it is fresh and something we haven't seen in a good while.

However I think Orton may be suited best as a tweener. Keep the heel attitude and stuff and let the crowd or his opponent dictate whether he is heel or face. I think this is what we could see creative lean towards, as it is obvious the audience enjoys Orton. I say get him into the tweener role and slowly develop him into a face.

 

[WhyTravisFelt]

Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is; there have been plenty of face turns in the past that did not take away a characters "Edge", most recently being, well, Edge. Triple H when he returned from injury at the rumble (forget what year) was essentially the same A-hole (although, he went down bad humor road again with HBK later), and Austin (96-97) was even "edgier" AFTER his face turn, and in fact, lost that edge when he turned heel in 2001 (anyone remember Austin and Angle fighting for Vinnie Mac's affection?

You don't have to automatically switch to "drink you milk and take your vitamins" like Cena did when he turned face from his heel rapper gimmick. And, yeah, alot of time that generic "good guy" stuff ruined otherwise good heel runs for Matt Hardy and MVP and countless others, but Orton's "viper" persona is so solidified at this point, I really have a hard time thinking they are planning on going anywhere but the Austin-esque anti-hero route.

I for one am enjoying it, as I really have been kind of neutral on Orton ever since he joined Evolution and this is one of the VERY RARE times in which I actually am interested in him (or any alumni of Evolution for that matter) and without the long-teased face turn/legacy feud, I'd still be stuck in neutral. Here's a nifty mania idea (will only happen if there's no MITB): Randy Orton and Kofi Kingston vs. Dibiase and Rhodes.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

The WWE doesn't need to do a damn thing with Randy Orton. They should just leave him be, and let the crowd react the way they want to. I don't want the WWE creative team messing this guy up. He is on a serious roll right now, and I don't see a ceiling in sight for him.

This. 1000x this.

Nick is spot on. Orton doesn't need anything to be forced right now. The crowd seems really into the heat amongst the members of Legacy, and I am one of them. Just continue creating intregue and allow the live crowds and TV segment ratings to tell WWE what to do. With a star as big as Orton, forcing a turn either way would turn the fans off. There's been a terrific build up here - make sure the payoff is worth it.

 

[D-Man]

This. 1000x this.

Nick is spot on. Orton doesn't need anything to be forced right now. The crowd seems really into the heat amongst the members of Legacy, and I am one of them. Just continue creating intregue and allow the live crowds and TV segment ratings to tell WWE what to do. With a star as big as Orton, forcing a turn either way would turn the fans off. There's been a terrific build up here - make sure the payoff is worth it.

This is one of the biggest problems that the WWE has been having with turning their competitors face or heel... they're unable to fully change the audience's emotions towards a wrestlers during the process of the turn. Therefore, the audience is left a bit confused. In time, they adapt, but they never feel the same about the guy. Perfect examples of this are MVP and Matt Hardy.

As far as Randy Orton is concerned, he's getting face pops based on his natural idiosyncrasies (lol, IC). Instead of forcing him in an opposite direction and going against the grain of the audience's natural emotions, they should let nature take it's course in the same way that it occurred during the Attitude Era. This played a huge part in the success of wrestlers such as The Rock, Austin, Undertaker, and Triple H. The people used their natural emotion and chose who they cheered and booed based on their gut feeling instead of having their hands forced. Randy Orton needs to follow this formula. Once he does, he'll not only turn babyface, but he'll become a MONSTER babyface, since the audience will geniunely love him.

 

[healyz84]

When I look at Wrestlemania, I see a triple threat match between Orton, Rhodes, and Dibiase. Should Legacy be faces for this match? Should Orton turn face for the match? I think the answer to this is that no one should turn face. Legacy clearly have not gotten over as faces, and quite frankly I think Rhodes is depised above all else. I don't know what it is about this guy, but I just generally hate him. If I met him on the street, I would probably punch him in the face. And I knew I could take him, cuz im bigger and probably stronger than him

Dibiase had his big chance a few months ago when Orton was on the top of his heelish character to turn face. Instead, Dibiase got punked out by Orton, and the fans I still think have no respect for him. I think Dibiase is better off being a Randy Orton 2.0, not a legend killer mind you but someone who is sneaky, diabolical, and ruthless.

This leads to Orton, who probably has the best chance of the 3 to become a face. He has been receiving a positive reaction ever since he returned from injury like a year and a half ago and seemingly saved Raw. Orton then was the best thing going for the wwe for the first half of 2009, until tailing off somewhat with his tiring feud with Cena. Orton now is at a, pardon the pun, crossroads at his career. Does he turn face, maybe one of the last opportunites he can truly turn, or does he remain a hated heel. In my belief, Orton should become a tweener. He should be able to feud with heels and faces, and be hated in some instances and revered in others. Since his feud with Cena, I think this is how Orton has been built. Hated in the Cena feud (well except for the Cena-haters). He was hated in the Kofi feud (though I still heard a spattering of cheers). He was revered with his match against Sheamus (cuz everyone hates Sheamus) and he will be the favorite against Legacy.

Being a tweener will give Orton a lot of possibilites. If he would turn face, then he would be severly limited. He just faced Sheamus, and would only put a good match on Raw with Miz. Besides that there is no one really on Raw. If he turned face and went to SD!, there is already a plethora of faces. He could feud with Batista (already done, boring), with Jericho and Punk (both would be interesting). As a heel, he would be stuck in the same feuds he always in. I think being a tweener will allow for a new level to Orton's character.

 

[Notorious718]

I didn't start watching WWE until well after his face run after being booted out of Evolution. That said, I can't say I would like seeing him make a face turn. True, it would freshen up his otherwise monotone character (man, I miss his Legend Killer gimmick) but he's really good at what he's doing and that's being a heel. Don't get me wrong, a face turn for Orton would be interesting but I just don't think the timing is right yet.

As far as Ted and Cody are concerned, I think Ted would make a great face. Months ago, there was an episode of Raw where Orton beat the shit out of Ted and Ted wasn't allowed to fight back. The crowd cheered Ted very loudly and I thought he'd make a great face. As for Cody, I don't care for him. He comes off as generic and boring. I didn't care for him on his first face run and I don't care for him now.

 

[mister_b1LL]

Orton is fine the way he is. Just leave him heel and if fans cheer him that's fine and if they boo him that's even better. I believe that if Orton ever officially turns face he's going to have or need a major character overhaul. His style right now just screams heel. And when that overhaul comes I'm pretty sure that fans won't be as into his face role simply because of the character change. The fans may just be cheering for him because of his character and when you take that away, the fans will be disappointed, thus people won't be into him anymore, thus negating the objective of the face turn.

 

[SaveUs_Y2J]

I gotta say iam a true Randy Orton fan face or heel hes still my faveourite why? cause hes the best but iam crying out for a face turn lets face it as the question says Ted just isnt working on winning over the crowd so change the script make Orton the face he can do it we've all seen it before make it work and when its ready turn Ted but for now make Orton face

 

[XgringolocoX]

You're not supposed to answer a question with a question, but fuck it.

If Orton is gaining popularity and fan base doing what he's doing, why change what ain't broke?

If fans watch cause of what he's doing, and more n more fans are liking it DON"T FUCKING CHANGE IT!!!!!!

 

[Bats]

HHH was WWE's mega heel of the Attitude Era, I swear at the time a heel could go no lower than HHH, yet he's one of the biggest babyfaces in the company at the moment (even though everyone knows he works MUCH BETTER as a heel), one look at the history of HHH's character should kill the notion that Randy couldn't be a face because of his past. (Hell HBK, Taker, even The Rock have done some pretty 'dastardly' shit in their times, yet still remain over as faces)

What is a heel's job? To make us hate him. The problem is, ppl get the face's job confused. A face's job isn't suppose to be to MAKE us love them, we're suppose to love them naturally and this is the reason why MVP, Matt Hardy, and even John Cena to an extent have such a hard time getting legit love from the crowd. The reason Randy will get over as a face, is because the crowd, much like Rock, Austin and Taker, is falling in love with the character.

This doesn't mean that Randy has to start kissing babies, he should just stay who he is and that will be face enough. That will be HIS character being accepted, moreso than trying to be FACE. Once the crowd gets behind you, as Steve Austin learned, you can attack an old lady (Linda) and still be beloved.

And please, let's eliminate this "tweener" bullshit, "tweeners" don't exist in the WWE world, a "tweener" is an antihero, which in the WWE world = face. Once the crowd starts cheering for a wrestler, buying his merchandise and all that, the company won't just keep flipflopping the wrestler's actions depending on the feud. You won't see Randy beating the hell out of Cena's father one month cuz of that feud, then saving Evan Bourne from a Sheamus beatdown to solidfy that feud...nope....once the change is made, its made. Much like CM Punk's decent into heel, came so naturally...the same will be done w/ Randy, or should be done...let it build, let the character grow...just realize that Randy is Randy and not Cena....

sidebar- isn't it crazy the dynamic we see w/ Orton and Cena, a face and a heel whose followers and naysayers are pretty much even...i can't wait to see them feuding probably years from now with Orton as the face and Cena as the heel, now THATS money...but shouldn't be executed ANYTIME SOON



o yea, first post...wutup!!

 

[Jonnie Walker]

Orton should stay the way he is. He's quickly turning into an Austin-like character and he got a tremendous pop last night. But, I think Vince is trying to force him to be more heelish. After what I saw him do to everyone in the chamber match last night, especially Kofi and Trips, I realized that Vince is trying to make him seem more sadistic. I always thought Orton could make a good face, but since everything he's done over the last few years, I realize he'll never play to the crowd. He'll be cheered, but he won't be a kissass. Also, something unrelated, I always thought Orton and Cena would make a great team. They've teamed up before. It worked pretty well. And as for Kofi and Orton vs. Dibiase and Rhodes, I HIGHLY doubt that. What I think will happen is Orton will punt Cody, and feud with Ted.

 

[Morpheus101]

Unless WWE are planning to turn Cena heel, they should NOT turn Orton face! Randy Orton is a great heel and an effective heel, in terms of putting up and coming faces over (just like Triple H when he was a heel). Turning Orton face would be a disaster as he is the best heel in the company right now (with CM Punk coming in a close second).

Leave Orton exactly how he is, i.e. have him beat heels and faces. Orton is the kind of heel that is over with the crowd anyway, so WWE really don't need to make him an ass-kissing babyface of the PG era, like John Cena (yuck!).

 

[Morpheus101]

Orton should stay the way he is. He's quickly turning into an Austin-like character and he got a tremendous pop last night. But, I think Vince is trying to force him to be more heelish. After what I saw him do to everyone in the chamber match last night, especially Kofi and Trips, I realized that Vince is trying to make him seem more sadistic. I always thought Orton could make a good face, but since everything he's done over the last few years, I realize he'll never play to the crowd. He'll be cheered, but he won't be a kissass. Also, something unrelated, I always thought Orton and Cena would make a great team. They've teamed up before. It worked pretty well. And as for Kofi and Orton vs. Dibiase and Rhodes, I HIGHLY doubt that. What I think will happen is Orton will punt Cody, and feud with Ted.

A face Orton might have worked during the "Attitude" era as he could have been the next Stone Cold, but it wouldn't work in the "PG" era. Turning Orton face in this day and age would take Orton's edge away and would leave us with a rather weak face that people would quickly tire of, if Orton weren't up to his usual devious, snake-like tricks that he can get away with so well as a heel.

 

[RVDgurl]

Randy Orton is already a face. It just happened naturally. The WWE may still be booking him as a heel, but the crowd's not buying it anymore. Orton has always had his loyal followers who cheer him through anything, but the past couple of weeks has seen a large majority of the crowd joining in the cheers.

At this point, it looks like the breakup of Legacy is finally upon us. I think most people assumed that DiBiase would be the one turning face. Obviously, we have no idea how this is actually being booked, but the WWE may need to do some serious renovations to that fued. People are loving Randy Orton right now- I hope the WWE is apying attention.

 

[Morpheus101]

Randy Orton is already a face. It just happened naturally. The WWE may still be booking him as a heel, but the crowd's not buying it anymore. Orton has always had his loyal followers who cheer him through anything, but the past couple of weeks has seen a large majority of the crowd joining in the cheers.

At this point, it looks like the breakup of Legacy is finally upon us. I think most people assumed that DiBiase would be the one turning face. Obviously, we have no idea how this is actually being booked, but the WWE may need to do some serious renovations to that fued. People are loving Randy Orton right now- I hope the WWE is apying attention.

I think the plan was to turn DiBiase face and have Orton remain as heel to feud with him. It didn't work out that way though -- Orton has become too popular and DiBiase hasn't really established himself as a major player, so they'll have him feud with Orton as a heel, rather than the other way around.

I still don't want Orton turned babyface though -- not in today's "PG" era. I guess that Orton has simply become liked regardless of whether he's heel or face, in the same way that HHH, Undertaker and Jericho are. Kudos to Randy for achieving that in a relatively short space of time.

 

[Persona]

There's no reason to turn Orton face because he's been getting his current reaction for a long time. I went to Backlash 08, where Orton got the biggest pop of the night and Cena got the most heat. The "Cena Sucks" chant was deafening when he came out, I can only imagine what he was thinking. Probably the first crowd that almost the entire arena was chanting "Cena Sucks" since the second One Night Stand.

 

[Serious Mozzarella]

Creative seemed to be so goddamned confused in trying to determine what the fan's reaction was to Orton v. Sheamus. Creative is playing it safe right now to break up Legacy in the aftermath of this thread, because I don't think even they know who is a face or a heel right now. Sheamus got cheers, Orton got cheers, DiBiase was getting cheers, because everyone was certain he would turn, and now, nobody knows what's going on anymore.

And it's awesome. I love this gray area-type of angles. The fans are cheering for who they want to cheer for, and it keeps everyone interested in what's going to happen in the coming weeks.

They're doing this well, but as like most in this thread, I have a feeling Creative will fuck this up for everyone, by trying to create clear faces and heels within this angle by using character retcons. All of a sudden, one of these guys is going to care about what the audience thinks, or have some kind of sympathy for other people, or some characteristic that wasn't in their character before.