**MERGED** Chris Jericho Suspended

[Rayne]

(I'm not even dignifying Rayne with a response)

Logic sucks when people use it against you. In your shoes, I wouldn't have a response either, because I didn't really leave you with any wiggle room. Don't ever try to pretend that freedom of speech is an absolute again, when you can't handle a demonstration of free speech that you don't like. Because...

We're never going to see eye to eye.

As a citizen of the planet Earth- yes, I'm completely allowed to question law. My opinion requires no position of authority. I think it's a stupid law. My "place" is perfectly sufficient for questioning any and all laws and legislation. Especially when that law conflicts with what most people in the first world would consider a human right.

"Because Freedom"

(You also felt the need to add a picture of an eagle backgrounded with a flag, but I thought I'd save people the bandwidth and irony.)

So I question the laws on public exposure. Isn't that my right as a citizen of the planet Earth? My opinion doesn't require a position of authority. What if I think it's a stupid law? My "place" would be perfectly sufficient for questioning any and all laws and legislation.

You're also superimposing your opinion onto "most people in the first world"; not just the idea of free speech, but absolute free speech. The oldest, lamest debate tactic in the world is to go "most people agree with me. Obviously." You don't understand that your conception of freedom of speech is boundary-based, like it is almost everywhere in the world.

You also don't seem to understand that you can question a law, but part of the compact of society is that we agree to follow laws, even those that we don't like, because laws are the rules that we agree to run a community by. (Civics 101. Go back to high school with your "I can question whatever I want without consequence" act.) If you're in Brazil, you don't have to like the laws, but you're expected to follow them. You understanding the rationale behind it is unnecessary to the equation.

 

[The Crock]

Yes. A code. Not a law.
Texas v. Johnson changed that.
I'm just trying to uphold a principle here. Not trying to be cool.

I'm not arguing code vs law, I'm pointing out that our country has something very similar and that it's not completely out of the ordinary.

The flag is a symbol. Desecrating that symbol is generally considered rude, impolite, and offensive. It does not harm anyone. Nor is it something that is sexually explicit. (I'm not even dignifying Rayne with a response)
Regardless of reason, whether to incite hatred, or to express an opinion- someone should not have be punished by the government for an act that brings no harm to no one. If you feel flags should be respected, I understand that ethic. But it's not something that should be upheld with the threat of jail time. Given the position Jericho was in- it was not the smartest move. Neither for business, nor for his image. Breaking the law is never a smart idea. I don't think breaking the law is immoral however, and I make no difference between calling people ugly, and disrespecting a symbol. (Especially when it's merely fictitious.) I'm merely criticizing the law itself- and those that would try to compare what he did to jacking it in public.

So, it's okay that he broke the law because he's "acting?" Would it be okay to beat down an innocent spectator because he's "acting?" No. A law is a law, as much disdain as you're showing for it, Jericho is completely in the wrong here. Brazil has every right to uphold this law, too. A flag has deep meaning, it's a symbol of pride, a representation of a people as a whole. It's tradition that you respect a flag -- in this case, it's a law -- but you don't go out and do what Jericho did. Moreover, WWE isn't exactly as established in the Brazilian market as it is in other places. For him to go out and do this is potentially harmful to WWE's business -- Brazil doesn't need WWE, Jericho got very close to starting quite the PR disaster here.

Look, I'm all for free speech, but the law is the law. Brazil has every right to defend their flag, just as we have the right to defend ours.

 

[Xemmy]

I'm not arguing code vs law, I'm pointing out that our country has something very similar and that it's not completely out of the ordinary.



So, it's okay that he broke the law because he's "acting?" Would it be okay to beat down an innocent spectator because he's "acting?" No. A law is a law, as much disdain as you're showing for it, Jericho is completely in the wrong here. Brazil has every right to uphold this law, too. A flag has deep meaning, it's a symbol of pride, a representation of a people as a whole. It's tradition that you respect a flag -- in this case, it's a law -- but you don't go out and do what Jericho did. Moreover, WWE isn't exactly as established in the Brazilian market as it is in other places. For him to go out and do this is potentially harmful to WWE's business -- Brazil doesn't need WWE, Jericho got very close to starting quite the PR disaster here.

Look, I'm all for free speech, but the law is the law. Brazil has every right to defend their flag, just as we have the right to defend ours.

I don't feel that breaking the law is automatically immoral. Acting does play a role in how one looks at the situation though. It's interactive- but it's still acting. Murder in a play isn't actual murder. Chris Irvine doesn't hate Brazil- Chris Jericho does. When you play the bad guy, you do bad things. Yes, Brazil does have every right to uphold this law. And I know that entering another country and desecrating it's flag is seen as a great sign of disrespect- perhaps even more so than your own country (being a guest and all). I'm not defending Jericho's actions. What he did was ignorant at best. Bad for business, and irresponsible. But I think calling it immoral is going too far.

 

[Xemmy]

Logic sucks when people use it against you. In your shoes, I wouldn't have a response either, because I didn't really leave you with any wiggle room. Don't ever try to pretend that freedom of speech is an absolute again, when you can't handle a demonstration of free speech that you don't like. Because...

You're have a lot of undeserved arrogance mon ami. I never said Freedom of Speech is absolute and without boundaries. But only in the instances of shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater or inciting violence. Chris Jericho did neither (#1 could be argued, because of riot worries, but even then it'd insult the intelligence of the fans in attendance)

(You also felt the need to add a picture of an eagle backgrounded with a flag, but I thought I'd save people the bandwidth and irony.)

I thought it was cute. And it was meant to be ironic (I don't have an ounce of patriotism in my body)

So I question the laws on public exposure. Isn't that my right as a citizen of the planet Earth? My opinion doesn't require a position of authority. What if I think it's a stupid law? My "place" would be perfectly sufficient for questioning any and all laws and legislation.

Please question them. Give a good reason for why it shouldn't be illegal and I'll listen.

You're also superimposing your opinion onto "most people in the first world"; not just the idea of free speech, but absolute free speech. The oldest, lamest debate tactic in the world is to go "most people agree with me. Obviously." You don't understand that your conception of freedom of speech is boundary-based, like it is almost everywhere in the world.

You don't understand that I have boundaries in Freedom of Speech. Just not yours. You're right- people agreeing with me is not an argument. Let's try again. Freedom of Speech is seen in the countries with the highest standard of living. It allows minority opinions to have a voice. This fights off oppression. And keeps people out of jail for having an opinion. Desecrating the symbol of something you don't agree with is defined as speech. In Jericho's case- petty hate speech. But speech none the less. It IS covered by our first amendment. Not by theirs. That's my criticism. I don't think anyone should be arrested for what they say as long is not with the intent of physical harm. (Riot Starters, Threats, Commands to Harm)

You also don't seem to understand that you can question a law, but part of the compact of society is that we agree to follow laws, even those that we don't like, because laws are the rules that we agree to run a community by. (Civics 101. Go back to high school with your "I can question whatever I want without consequence" act.) If you're in Brazil, you don't have to like the laws, but you're expected to follow them. You understanding the rationale behind it is unnecessary to the equation.

Um. This last one is really...when did I encourage law breaking? >.>
More importantly, since when has questioning the law been the same as breaking it?

I can question whatever I like without consequences. Breaking the law is not questioning the law. I don't condone what Chris did. I felt it was irresponsible and ignorant. But not immoral. I feel that he should not have to have been under the threat of arrest for what he did. Hence my issue with the Brazilian law.

 

[Rayne]

You're have a lot of undeserved arrogance mon ami. I never said Freedom of Speech is absolute and without boundaries. But only in the instances of shouting "Fire" in a crowded theater or inciting violence. Chris Jericho did neither (#1 could be argued, because of riot worries, but even then it'd insult the intelligence of the fans in attendance)

But not in the instances of public exposure? You're confusing a Supreme Court ruling with the broader concept of freedom of speech.

Also, my arrogance is completely earned and deserved.

Please question them. Give a good reason for why it shouldn't be illegal and I'll listen.

Flag desecration is illegal in Brazil. I'm not arguing about the legality of public exposure. I'm using an example to demonstrate that there is no such thing as absolute freedom of speech, and the limit on that is far greater than the "FIRE" example. If you're about "freedom of speech", then you have no problem with people exposing themselves in public- IF you believe that the only instances where freedom of speech should be limited are those which incite violence. Brazil has placed one of their limits as flag desecration. America has one of theirs as public exposure.

I really don't think you understand the boundaries that you have. By the way, the example would be any society which was comfortable with public nudity, of which there are, literally, tens of thousands across the globe. You're confusing cultural acceptance with natural law, and freedom of speech is tied right into cultural acceptance.

You don't understand that I have boundaries in Freedom of Speech. Just not yours. You're right- people agreeing with me is not an argument. Let's try again. Freedom of Speech is seen in the countries with the highest standard of living. It allows minority opinions to have a voice. This fights off oppression. And keeps people out of jail for having an opinion. Desecrating the symbol of something you don't agree with is defined as speech. In Jericho's case- petty hate speech. But speech none the less. It IS covered by our first amendment. Not by theirs. That's my criticism. I don't think anyone should be arrested for what they say as long is not with the intent of physical harm. (Riot Starters, Threats, Commands to Harm)

That's nice. Don't tell them how to run their house, they won't tell you how to run yours. I really don't give a shit what Brazil thinks about the 2nd Amendment.

I can question whatever I like without consequences. Breaking the law is not questioning the law. I don't condone what Chris did. I felt it was irresponsible and ignorant. But not immoral. I feel that he should not have to have been under the threat of arrest for what he did. Hence my issue with the Brazilian law.

You seem to realize that Brazilians, the people who have to worry about those laws, don't give a shit about your opinion, but you keep offering it. I don't live in Brazil, I agree to respect their laws while I'm there, but even my arrogance isn't enough to presume to tell other people how to live within their house. So long as they aren't saying anything to incite violence, of course.

 

[Honkey_Kong]

Yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that we have a flag code, which was my point. We handle ours differently than Brazil does, but it's still the right of a nation to govern what they deem can and cannot be done to their flag. There's nothing wrong with that. Xemmy's argument was based on free speech and all that, which is nice, but there's still a law in Brazil preventing the type of behavior Jericho exhibited. The Brazilian police had every right to step in and threaten Jericho with jail time -- he broke the law.

In the States, even with this Supreme Case, there would have been quite an outrage at Jericho disrespecting our flag. The police might not step in, but he'd still be forced to apologize.

I don't think too many people would get upset. TSN didn't threaten to stop airing RAW when HBK humped the Canadian flag and those guys up there are way more uptight than we are.

I really don't dispute Brazil's bullshit law there. It is what it is, but WWE shouldn't be suspending Jericho for this. If Brazil wanted to make him pay for it, they should've just taken him to jail. Obviously, the apology was good enough for them. And WWE wants Jericho to generate heat. It was something that happened in the spur of the moment got taken a little too far.

 

[LegendKilla101508]

I love how people are saying Brazil is so bad for this incident, and no one remembers how sensitive Christian America is. God forbid something interrupts the anthem or disrespects the flag. What happened to Finlay when he proposed for Miz to interrupt the national anthem. I thought that was a very good idea to garner heat, and I would do it in a heartbeat, but apparently the rednecks in the back didn't like it, so they simply fired Finlay. Even worse.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

You know the funniest thing about this thread?

While the moral authority is feigning outrage on behalf of the Brazilian people that Chris Jericho offended with his heelish dispicableness... there's actually been a couple Brazilians post in this thread, stating that they not only weren't even aware of this law, but that the whole thing didn't bother them at all. One of them was even at the show in question.

So funny

 

[HoHo]

That's all he did,lol.I mean he didn't wipe his butt with it, or spit on it, just stomp on it, if that was the case, the Iron Sheik would of been suspended every week.

 

[jacdnwarrior]

I hate the idea of disrespecting a country's flag. I can understand it as protest, but in a wrestling show in a country where you are trying to introduce your product to a wider audience, might not be the best move. If the American flag was being used as kleenex or mishandled in an American arena, I doubt it wouldn't trigger a negative response.

I like Jericho, and think he just made a bad choice and he shouldn't be punished too severely.

 

[DetectiveZelix]

http://www.tmz.com/videos/0_78o4h78p

There's the vid. Judge for yourself. he didnt sound too sincere in the apology but it seems fas still support him. i think all is forgiven

 

[Canadian Dragon]

I don't think too many people would get upset. TSN didn't threaten to stop airing RAW when HBK humped the Canadian flag and those guys up there are way more uptight than we are.

I really don't dispute Brazil's bullshit law there. It is what it is, but WWE shouldn't be suspending Jericho for this. If Brazil wanted to make him pay for it, they should've just taken him to jail. Obviously, the apology was good enough for them. And WWE wants Jericho to generate heat. It was something that happened in the spur of the moment got taken a little too far.

Canadians are "more uptight" than Americans about these things? I'm sorry but we aren't the nationalistic pricks who bomb or torture anyone who says they don't like us. No one in Canada gave a shit about HBK and the Canadian flag, just as no Brazilian citizens minded what Y2J did.
This is just another case of a ridiculously nationalistic, out of touch government trying to uphold a principle that no one else cares about.
The only reason WWE reacted to this is because its election season and Linda McMahon doesn't want people to say she is disrespectful to other countries. Jericho can give an empty apology, sit out one week so they can say he was "punished", and get back to business.

 

[Shining Mizard]

This is ridiculous. I feel sorry for Y2J, he wasn't going to be around for too much longer and a 30 day suspension is just a massive blow. Can't believe Brazil would have a law like that in this present day.

 

[The Eighties]

It's just been an unfortunate mistake, Jericho was just being an oldschool heel and didn't realize it was against the law in Brazil, he's accepted the suspension and WWE's position on this, he'll be back after the Fozzy tour.

 

[Danny310]

I don't understand whats the big deal. Don't the country knows its scripted? I mean, Getting suspended its taking it to far unless its a work. Didn't Shawn Michaels did something way worse to the Canadian flag?

 

[Mrs. Randy Orton]

I don't understand whats the big deal. Don't the country knows its scripted? I mean, Getting suspended its taking it to far unless its a work. Didn't Shawn Michaels did something way worse to the Canadian flag?

The law is the law.


There is no law against doing anything to the Canadian flag.


Scripted or not, as dumb as it sounds, Jericho still broke the law, regardless of it being a scripted wrestling event. Jericho obviously had no idea because laws are different all over the place and he was just being a heel but it cost him.

 

[Shotaro]

I don't understand whats the big deal. Don't the country knows its scripted? I mean, Getting suspended its taking it to far unless its a work. Didn't Shawn Michaels did something way worse to the Canadian flag?

He broke the law, scripted or not what he did was illegal and not in a way that can be justified as a normal part of wrestling. If it were televised then the WWE may have had an easier time justifying it.

Pretty sure if I turned up in america and burned the flag I'd go to prison, if I were doing it as part of a TV show id still get hate but it's at least in service of a story. ( even then I'd probably g fied pretty heavily)

 

[Rayne]

Pretty sure if I turned up in america and burned the flag I'd go to prison, if I were doing it as part of a TV show id still get hate but it's at least in service of a story. ( even then I'd probably g fied pretty heavily)

Well, you wouldn't go to prison, unless you burnt the flag in a fashion which put other people in physical danger. Our Supreme Court ruled in 1989 that burning the American flag was an act of speech protected under our First Amendment, so long as it is done with 'expressive intent'. Technically, burning flags because you're out of other firewood could be illegal, depending on which state you're in.

You would, however, absolutely enrage quite a few people. One or several of them might attempt to educate you on the finer points of flag care via the "fist/foot" method. While the old maxim "your right to free speech ends where your fist meets my nose" applies, it doesn't mean someone absolutely won't thump you in the face for exercising those rights. He'll just be committing a crime when he does it.

This is ridiculous. I feel sorry for Y2J, he wasn't going to be around for too much longer and a 30 day suspension is just a massive blow. Can't believe Brazil would have a law like that in this present day.

Mmmm. Really. In Germany, I can't suggest that the Holocaust didn't happen, or wasn't as bad as people say it is. Australia doesn't have any protections on freedom of speech. A person in South Korea can be imprisoned for promoting North Korea in a favorable light. "Hate speech" is illegal in most European countries; not just speech which threatens minority groups, but speech which insults or degrades those races.

And those are just the liberal democracies. I haven't even got into the dictatorships yet. Freedom of speech is an ideal; but cultural values have a tendency to trump. No one's ever been able to prove the harm caused by a child seeing a naked body, and yet I can't walk down Madison Avenue, naked, in a protest over consumerism.

 

[Shotaro]

Well, you wouldn't go to prison, unless you burnt the flag in a fashion which put other people in physical danger. Our Supreme Court ruled in 1989 that burning the American flag was an act of speech protected under our First Amendment, so long as it is done with 'expressive intent'. Technically, burning flags because you're out of other firewood could be illegal, depending on which state you're in.

You would, however, absolutely enrage quite a few people. One or several of them might attempt to educate you on the finer points of flag care via the "fist/foot" method. While the old maxim "your right to free speech ends where your fist meets my nose" applies, it doesn't mean someone absolutely won't thump you in the face for exercising those rights. He'll just be committing a crime when he does it.

heh. Indeed and that was what I was driving at. Brazil is nuts about it's flag (I'm not opining over that since its irrelevant) and so if any form of denegration is illegal regardless of artistic intent then Jericho is right to be forced to apologise and be suspended and in fact he is probably lucky to have gotten away so lightly.

Mmmm. Really. In Germany, I can't suggest that the Holocaust didn't happen, or wasn't as bad as people say it is. Australia doesn't have any protections on freedom of speech. A person in South Korea can be imprisoned for promoting North Korea in a favorable light. "Hate speech" is illegal in most European countries; not just speech which threatens minority groups, but speech which insults or degrades those races.

And those are just the liberal democracies. I haven't even got into the dictatorships yet. Freedom of speech is an ideal; but cultural values have a tendency to trump. No one's ever been able to prove the harm caused by a child seeing a naked body, and yet I can't walk down Madison Avenue, naked, in a protest over consumerism.

It's true, sadly free speech is just an illusion. It always has been and always will be, you're right to say what ever you like (free speech as in freedom to speak) but for some things there are bound to be consequences. (In the UK for example, you can go to prison if what you say could be considered as "inciting violence")

 

[H33LTurn]

Plain and simple, I would not appreciate a foreign artist doing that to my flag, and I'm not even patriotic. There are better ways to get heat and while I disagree with suspension or incarceration of anyone who breaks a flag desecration law, it was an immense lapse of judgement on Jericho's behalf. It also didnt help that Punk was parading the flag in the ring without being Brazilian in the first place, leaving no alternative to Jericho as the heel to interact with it in some way. Leave the flag play to those who are from that specific country and you avoid issues like this.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

I think a lot of you guys forget that the WWE is an actual company, not just one on TV. If you do something like this, you get suspended. It's only 30 days. It was probably in some policy like "if you break the law of a certain degree, you get suspended". This isn't some under the counter mom and pop liquor store. This is a publicly traded company worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

Personally, I think that patriotism to an extreme is stupid. You're just as likely to have been born French or Chinese or whatever. Also, if you're going to be overly proud of your country, are you also overly proud of the state/province, city, or street you grew up on? Or are you overly proud of the continent or the hemisphere you were born on? I understand supporting it, but if you think logically about it, you shouldn't fight someone or throw a hissy fit if they make fun of....the place you were born in.

My opinion doesn't matter. Like I said, it was likely a procedural thing that's in a policy somewhere about suspensions and breaking the law.

 

[rge2010]

I dont think WWE Programming will miss Jericho. Hopefully he is done with the company. What an anti climatic return this has been. Boring come back, nothing of what he said came through true and he is always jobbing. No impact whatsoever...

I had no interest in Orton vs Jericho at all.

 

[ZexImmortal]

we all NOW know Miz is taking on Orton. NOW i know im no WWE guy so i dont need anyone telling me, this is just me wondering what you all think:


Miz has been fussing for sometime now about not being a major player anymore, it all started when Mr. Excitement took over. (Mind you he won the pin that made Johnny GM of both Raw and SD)


IF Miz losses; Johnny SHOULD come out and tell Miz he has not been impressed with Miz and the next time he losses a match he will be fired (Much like Teddy and Drew)

NOW here's the kicker: Cena locks horns with Johnny and is seemingly in the advantage spot, Otunga blinds sides Cena, Miz shows up and BAM chair to Otunga.


Why do this?

Miz could easily say he is the man responsible for his downfall, he was the one that put Johnny in power and created this People Power...now he will destroy it. cause at least when Teddy was in charge he had matches. then Miz will be on the hunt to get Teddy his power back from Johnny.


Enter Y2J


Jericho returns with a surprise Code Breaker to Miz, Y2J has a grudge with Miz, "no one replaces Y...2...J" type of thing (He did take his spot against Orton)

Johnny picks Y2J to represent him while Miz represents Teddy. Miz vs Y2J can be a golden match mainly with "People Power" on the line. it would DEFIANTLY put Miz over with everyone and the transition from heel to face is believable.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

If Miz Wins against Orton at No Way Out...next night dont book him and have him complain the same way, Johnny comes out and just tells Miz to get out of the ring, like these people i am sick and tired of you trying to claim credit for my glory.

Miz attacks Otunga during a Cena beat down (I mean what better way to get over then helping Cena these days) and boom everything else i stated.



Well???


(Its also best, yes i admit i was all in for the end of brand split. but i see how the new guys suffer from it and unique stories as well. I feel the Extension should some what die, Only have both brands on one show during the last week or so before the big PPV event. Plus with the Draft coming up...someone has to rep. SD! or its all just pointless. if anything...ONLY CHAMPIONS can appear on both shows)

 

[The Wolf]

I dont think the WWE will do that but I think it will be a great change up. I have heard numerous people say The Miz should turn FACE & your plan would do just that & still let him be The Miz.

Miz vs Jericho would be a great match & should draw alot plus this would be the time to start planning for Summer Slam that match with Brock vs HHH also from what I hear The Rock will be there it might pull as much as Mania

I hope they do it but dought it

 

[AwesomeRko]

Excellent idea man. I think Miz should definently take issue with Johnny over his lack of oppurtunity since securing the WM win and this would be the perfect way to turn him face and rejuvenate his character. A Miz/Y2J fued would be great, they are both very good on the mic and are often viewed as similar, I would be all for it.