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Let's constructively criticize Dagger's crap game, as long as it's to his liking.

I agree with everything else you've said, but I've always felt that the above is one of the worst pieces of literary advice ever handed out. It's not quite as bas as 'write what you know', but then in my view neither is genocide. I gave lectures on the creative writing process for a while, and one of the first things I tried to convey to people what not to obey the above rule, which they have all had drilled into their heads by Stephen King's 'On Writing'. I am not generally in favour of banning books, but for that one I might make an exception.

If everything in a story (of any form, be it novel, film, game or other) is devoted to advancing the narrative then what you end up with is a bloated plot that is unlikely to convince a reader/viewer/listener to care about it. Plot is ultimately derivative, and whether you believe Gozzi that there are thirty-six, Tobias that there are twenty or Aristotle that there are only three, it is commonly accepted that narrative is finite, and since it is finite it is ultimately derivative, and because it is ultimately derivative it is seldom engaging.

I struggle to put my finger upon a single text that I enjoy for the story alone. Outside of modernist work narrative is the critical trunk around which most fiction is built, but a trunk that is not adorned with branches and leaves is pretty fucking boring to look at. This is not to say that plot cannot be entertaining, but a plot can ultimately only be as entertaining as the environment in which is transpires. This is why 'Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolfe' and 'Twelve Angry Men' are works of deep and moving artistic genius, but me simply recounting the plots of those plays is something that nobody cound possibly be persuaded to care about.

What engages a reader is precisely those elements of a text that do not advance the narrative. Characterization, description, imagery, summarization and exposition ( maybe not so much). Do you have any idea how long Midnight's Children would be if you cut out every paragraph that could justifiably be considered to be purple? You'd be axing a majority of the book, and turning one of the seminal works on magic realism into an extremely average story about post partition India.

Yann Martel's Life of Pie doesn't bother trying to advance the narrative at all until one third of the way into the book. The opening chapters are almost all anecdotes about the practice of zoo keeping. This is the same for a great deal of quality fiction, which to a greater or lesser extent prioritises world building and character development ahead of pushing forward the plot. If the reader has not been drawn to care about the characters and their world then the plot is not going to hold their attention. It's why nobody reads those incredibly dense spy novels despite them having narratives that make the Booker Prize short list look simplistic.

And then of course there is the fact that writing for its own sake is an essential part of any text. The era of realist fiction ended a few hundred years ago. We've had Virginia Wolfe and her fellows teach us about modernism, and we've transcended quite some distance from that in the past forty years. It is now widely recognised that an extract from a text can exist entirely for its own sake. Ian McEwen can spend six pages talking about strangers by the side of the road, and the reader will lap up every irrelevance detail for no other reason than because it's masterfully written. Hell, a lot of modernist material issues a gigantic 'fuck you' to the concept of advancing a narrative at all, and whilst it's not to my taste one cannot reject its success as a means of expression.

Obviously things become somewhat more complicated when dealing with film and television where a far more stringent time constraint is imposed and the writer's hand is forced to contain a set amount of narrative in a set timespan. There's also the fact that, since one is dealing with a visual medium, almost everything can justifiably be presented as narrative in it's own way. Even there however it is recognised that not everything need advance the plot. Find me a film that doesn't contain at least half a dozen scenes that could be shaved without a single person in the audience noticing and I'll consider you to have done very well for yourself.

The beauty of unlimited mediums such as novels, or in this case video games, is that they don't have and kind of real time constraint placed upon them. The creator has almost total freedom to present the characters, world and story however they feel best, and as such there is absolutely no need for every word to be advancing the narrative. Hell, I'd even go so far as to say with a video game (which usually live or die based on immersion, which is closely tied to world building) advancing the narrative is even less important. There's a good reason for the hundreds of utterly pointless NPC's who litter each and every JRPG ever produced.

So yeah... those ten worlds you typed... they're wrong.

I should have been more specific. I'm a screenwriter, not a novelist (And there goes any respect Gelgarin may have had for me). So my medium is not unlimited, it generally lasts no more than two hours, and while there is time for things like character development, I'd still say that falls under the umbrella of advancing the narrative, as we need to know what made Charles Foster Kane die alone, what made Rick willing to tell Ilsa to get on that plane, and gosh darn it, why did Freddy get fingered?

To stick with Citizen Kane as an example, the whole movie is a beautiful example of tying together advancement of the narrative with character development as the story is the character.

Now as you say writing for the sake of writing exists and can be wildly entertaining, I suppose one could argue filming for the sake of filming can exist, but it's far less financially successful (and I'd argue less interesting, but that's an issue of taste) than narrative storytelling. With the invention of YouTube it's become easier for those sorts of movies to be made, but they still rarely are.

I suppose in Dagger's video game you are right in that not EVERYTHING needs to advance the narrative, but at least I think we can agree that the majority of the protagonist's journey across the world should advance his narrative. Maybe not every NPC or random battle or random sign needs to advance the narrative, but the necessary events do. I can't comment on specifics, but with a minimum of 90 hours to complete the story, I would be willing to wager that his protagonist is running around doing unnecessary tasks.

While I mostly disagree with you for my particular genre of writing, I will keep what you said in mind when writing from here out. I usually try to let it flow, but sometimes when editing myself I go back and delete things that I find unnecessary, as it's easier to shoot a short film than a longer one at this stage in my life. From now on, though, I'll see what non-narrative advancing work does for me.
 
I'm trying to get Doc to post a screenshot of one of our interior buildings, in case we feel like comparing a feast to a piss sandwich.

Please do.

Please note that we're using a newer version of RPG Maker so the graphics looking better in general should be disregarded. Just look at details/style.

Inside your bedroom at the start of the game:
room.jpg


The downstairs.
kitchen.jpg


Outside your house.
outsidethehouse.jpg


Another part of town.
outsideshop.jpg


Haven't yet set where West leads.
dialogue.jpg


Inside the main hall of the government building (WIP)
insidegbuilding.jpg

And now, Division Blade.
Part of the town of Wotamyne, whose claim to fame is that they have a "water mine".
wotamyne.jpg


Another part of Wotamyne.
wotamyne2.jpg


Inside the tiny house.
HAMMERSPACE.jpg

I'm not trying to point and say "HEY GUYS LOOK WHAT I DID, SOOO MUCH BETTER". I'm just trying to give a few comparisons here and point out how important detail can be. These screenshots don't do either game the justice of seeing them in motion. I could go on and on about how all of Dagger's NPCs move at the same rate of speed and don't even seem to have set paths. However, that'd be another word fort, and I'm just not feeling like doing one right now.
 
BTW, is it really 90 hours? I mean Pokemon takes like 36-40 hours at the maximum and that is more or less the standard by which an RPG is measured these days. Division Blade is 3 times longer than Pokemon. Let that sink in for a second.
 
I refuse to play a video game that hasn't been created by a reputable company. Especially one with SNes-type graphics... sorry.
 
Maybe Dagger didn't realize that Jose was making a joke (which is on him), but this thread is uncalled for. Dagger put a lot of effort into making a game (even including some of you in it) and gave it to people here for free. You should never openly bash a man's passion project, regardless of what you think of it. Posting about video games you haven't played, on the other hand...
 
Maybe Dagger didn't realize that Jose was making a joke (which is on him), but this thread is uncalled for. Dagger put a lot of effort into making a game (even including some of you in it) and gave it to people here for free. You should never openly bash a man's passion project, regardless of what you think of it. Posting about video games you haven't played, on the other hand...

Hey man there's some really good advice in my post. I gotta respect Dagger for making a game and sticking with it, which is more than you can say for many of my projects, but no one is above constructive criticism just because "it's his passion" and "he worked for so long on it". Length and passion are not indicative of quality. Look at Avatar, or North.

If Dagger really wants to get into making videogames he needs to learn some basic geometry and style tips. When he first released it he said he wanted some constructive feedback, and when he got it he flew off the handle at Jose.
 
Hey, I'm not knocking Dagger. I respect the work he put into the game. That shit can't be easy to do. But I wouldn't be excited to watch a black and white TV just because someone built another one out of things you can find around your kitchen, you know?
 
Hey, I'm not knocking Dagger. I respect the work he put into the game. That shit can't be easy to do. But I wouldn't be excited to watch a black and white TV just because someone built another one out of things you can find around your kitchen, you know?

I know that much, just one of my pet projects for my gaming blog is finding those hidden gems by the smaller companies and giving them due praise.
 
I know that much, just one of my pet projects for my gaming blog is finding those hidden gems by the smaller companies and giving them due praise.

There are times when I wished I had the interest, patience, and time for that stuff.
 
The problem is my particular city has a 12% unemployment rate, I get what I can but sadly that's temp job for a month here, temp job for a couple there.

I may as well keep a focus during that time.
 
http://www.mediafire.com/?ll7j195scumtwi5

DIVISION BLADE!

OK, this is an extracting zip file with a shitton of files so be sure to unzip it into a new folder. After it's done, go to the folder where you unzipped it and click the icon which I believe is named "RPG_RT" in order to run it. Pressing F4 turns it to Windowed Mode.
 

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