John Cena or Hulk Hogan?

[oldhamandy1]

I love how angry people are getting, this thread is sheer opinion. I was brought up in the Attitude era in England, so I don't know that much about Hogan in his heyday. What I have seen of him I don't like, so for me Cena wins, does this make me a moran? I'd like to think it not, being a non-relgious Englishman Hogan's past bits (would) never apeal to me. He is a loudmouthed relic, who has talked himself out of many people's hearts.
There is still time for Cena to do that, but in 30 years time we will perhaps be having a similar discussion focused around Cena and whoever is big at the time.

 

[RicoLen]

You're comparing the man who made wrestling mainstream to some guy in the 2000s who just happened to become the Face because he had a fake thug gimmick and was needed after Lesnar left.

It was more than that man. The entire industry was going down the crapper thanks to Chris Benoit, and even (I hate to say it but) Eddie Guerrero. People dying because they live the wrestler life style and even worse, main eventers that pull a double murder suicide because they lived the life style, believe it or not are bad for business. Stocks plummeted, sponsors dropped out, casual fans lost interest, and ratings dipped lower than ever.

The PG-Era is a direct response to Chris Benoit's actions, or perhaps more accurately a direct response to federal investigations on the companies drug policy, which was a direct response to Benoit's actions, and Cena is the guy that brought the company back from the brink of destruction. John Cena has done more for the industry than anyone save for Hulk Hogan and Steve Austin and maybe a small handful of others. WWE being on TV in 2008, 2009, 2010, & 2011? You owe that to John Cena.

40% of WWE demographic is comprised of woman and children, and among these fans (the less vocal and slight minority of the two major demographics) John Cena reigns supreme.

Sorry to say it but Cena haters had better get used to the idea that they owe him for keeping WWE on TV. That's nothing to scoff at.

 

[LynchCats]

It was more than that man. The entire industry was going down the crapper thanks to Chris Benoit, and even (I hate to say it but) Eddie Guerrero. People dying because they live the wrestler life style and even worse, main eventers that pull a double murder suicide because they lived the life style, believe it or not are bad for business. Stocks plummeted, sponsors dropped out, casual fans lost interest, and ratings dipped lower than ever.

The PG-Era is a direct response to Chris Benoit's actions, or perhaps more accurately a direct response to federal investigations on the companies drug policy, which was a direct response to Benoit's actions, and Cena is the guy that brought the company back from the brink of destruction. John Cena has done more for the industry than anyone save for Hulk Hogan and Steve Austin and maybe a small handful of others. WWE being on TV in 2008, 2009, 2010, & 2011? You owe that to John Cena.

40% of WWE demographic is comprised of woman and children, and among these fans (the less vocal and slight minority of the two major demographics) John Cena reigns supreme.

Sorry to say it but Cena haters had better get used to the idea that they owe him for keeping WWE on TV. That's nothing to scoff at.

The industry was going down the crapper the minute Vince bought WCW. Once Vince turned up the T-n-A (not to be confused with the minor league promotion down in Orlando) in the early 2000s, the sponsors started to leave the company and Vince was losing money. That's when the PG era started, not in 2007. Casual fans lost interest because there wasn't a competing company to turn to when the WWE got boring. And ratings have gone down because cable TV has exploded in the last 10 years so there are more options. (By and by I hold absolutely ZERO credence to television ratings because they use a formula based on a sampling of viewers. Actual viewership could be much higher or much lower than the numbers suggest.)

 

[RicoLen]

The industry was going down the crapper the minute Vince bought WCW. Once Vince turned up the T-n-A (not to be confused with the minor league promotion down in Orlando) in the early 2000s, the sponsors started to leave the company and Vince was losing money. That's when the PG era started, not in 2007. Casual fans lost interest because there wasn't a competing company to turn to when the WWE got boring. And ratings have gone down because cable TV has exploded in the last 10 years so there are more options. (By and by I hold absolutely ZERO credence to television ratings because they use a formula based on a sampling of viewers. Actual viewership could be much higher or much lower than the numbers suggest.)

There's definitely some credibility to what you're saying. I was one of those guys that left because The Rock left, and because of the T&A. But at the same time you can't deny that Benoit wasn't the catalyst to the start of the PG-era, which in fact started July 22 2008, when WWE.com released a statement that they had officially gone back to the PG rating.

http://www.wwe.com/inside/industrynews/7706710

Benoit ruined pro-wrestling as a whole, and it's still trying to recover from the damage he did. And the endless stream of wrestlers dying of heart attacks isn't helping in the least bit either. The reason we're just starting to see things go the other way is because both MVP & Edge have essentially had their lives saved by the wellness program instituted after Benoit's actions.

These are facts. I know it was headed in that direction already, but it wasn't official and it wasn't made a serious point until after the backlash caused by Benoit's double murder suicide.

It doesn't matter what you think about TV ratings, networks DO care about TV ratings, and because of that they have the power to cancel MNR at any time if the ratings get too low.

I can't convince anyone that doesn't have an open mind to the subject. If you're convinced you know the whole story, so be it. I respect your right to it, but I DO have an open mind, and am willing to accept that I was wrong if proven so. I've seen nothing more compelling than the explanation that "Chris Benoit did it."

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

The industry was going down the crapper the minute Vince bought WCW. Once Vince turned up the T-n-A (not to be confused with the minor league promotion down in Orlando) in the early 2000s, the sponsors started to leave the company and Vince was losing money. That's when the PG era started, not in 2007. Casual fans lost interest because there wasn't a competing company to turn to when the WWE got boring. And ratings have gone down because cable TV has exploded in the last 10 years so there are more options. (By and by I hold absolutely ZERO credence to television ratings because they use a formula based on a sampling of viewers. Actual viewership could be much higher or much lower than the numbers suggest.)

Actually the ratings work fairly well. You don't need to eat the whole cake to know how it tastes. Same concept. That said, the reason you shouldn't use ratings is because it's outdated. For example, I don't even have cable. I watch every WWE show on youtube or somewhere else. I'm paying 15/month for high speed internet so I can watch what I want instead of paying 40/month for about 6 channels I actually watch and 45 channels of garbage.

You have to look at twitter followers, facebook likes, google searches, internet hits, etc also, which WWE kicks ass in.

The guy before you is right. Benoit killed wrestling and whether people like it or not (or are to stupid to even think this deep about the situation), Cena is saving it. He MUST be the all american good guy as a character and in real life.

 

[Nas pins jay-z]

For me it's hogan. Even though I'm not a cena fan, I respect him, especially for getting himself over in an era that's constantly being compared to the AE characters. That said, without hogan, cena might not have had the chance to shine. Hogan and vince together took wrestling to a whole new level. As far as people saying cena's better because he's a superior human being, ask yourselves this. Do you really know cena? Did we really know hogan during the prayers and vitamin years? Wasn't we happy benoit finally won cause he was a great guy and hard worker? The point is we don't know any of these guys good or bad. We go by what we hear, not see. I'm not saying cena's a bad person but i sad the same thing about benoit too.

 

[Bigrog25]

@twjc, everyone cena works with is elevated? HAHAHAHAHA cena buries EVERYONE he works with, how on earth can you say he puts everybody over? He just beat r-truth with a water bottle for gosh sakes... Any wrestler will tell you they made more money in a program with hogan than at any other time. Even those wrestlers who don't get along with hogan will tell ya he's the biggest name ever. Look at the greatest stats of the 90s DVD, even Arn Anderson said that, and it's no secret he and hogan don't get along to say the least. Hogan is bigger than all you named, wrestling will never be as big as the mid- late 80s, the most watched wrestling show ever on NBC, the biggest crowd ever, and so on. There's a reason these records that happened during the hulkamania heyday have never been broken by those you named, while they were all great in their own right, there is only one who captivated the world to the point that even celebrities had to wait in line to see I they could get tickets(unlike now where they pay them to attend) and that would be Hulk Hogan.

 

[Trill Co$by]

@twjc, everyone cena works with is elevated? HAHAHAHAHA cena buries EVERYONE he works with, how on earth can you say he puts everybody over? He just beat r-truth with a water bottle for gosh sakes... Any wrestler will tell you they made more money in a program with hogan than at any other time. Even those wrestlers who don't get along with hogan will tell ya he's the biggest name ever. Look at the greatest stats of the 90s DVD, even Arn Anderson said that, and it's no secret he and hogan don't get along to say the least. Hogan is bigger than all you named, wrestling will never be as big as the mid- late 80s, the most watched wrestling show ever on NBC, the biggest crowd ever, and so on. There's a reason these records that happened during the hulkamania heyday have never been broken by those you named, while they were all great in their own right, there is only one who captivated the world to the point that even celebrities had to wait in line to see I they could get tickets(unlike now where they pay them to attend) and that would be Hulk Hogan.

Actually whoever says Hogan was the best is dead wrong. At his best, Hogan topped out at around 4 million in merchandise sales whereas Cena nearly doubles that yearly.

As far as putting someone over, they don't have to win the damn program to be considered over. In the end, Miz lost his program with Cena, but he's still considered the top or second top heel on Raw right now. R-Truth was just put into not one, not two, but three big time matches all of which have dealt with the WWE title picture... thus keeping him relevant and giving him more benefits. Sheamus worked two programs with Cena two years in a row and went over him in both occasions. Wade Barrett was without a doubt one of the most talked about newcomers after his rivalry with Cena, it was Smackdown's booking that shuffled him to the bottom.

People claim Cena and even Triple H never put someone over, but fail to realize that accept for a select few people, Hogan never dropped the title and never put people over.

 

[RicoLen]

Here's the thing people always throw at Hogan... They always say Austin made the company more money than Hogan, but that's simply BS, if you look at the grand scheme of things Hulkamania is still paying off big, and has been since the mid-80's Austin may have peaked higher, but that's building off the architecture that Hogan built 15 years earlier. Cena is no Hogan, period. Give him 25 years, and then yeah, I bet maybe he will be comparable, until then... absolutely no way in hell.

If you worked with Hogan you were made rich, everyone that worked with him got rich. Hogan made more people rich than Austin or Cena likely ever will, and Hogan is still at it, if at a lesser level than in his prime or during the nWo days. Hogan wrote the forward to Bobby The Brain Heenan's book and because of that Hogan agreed to show up to book signings and do some publicity for Heenan, and it sold like crazy because people just wanted to meet the Hulkster.

In that respect, Cena, and not even Austin are even in the same league as Hulk. Hulkamania will live forever, and it won't be stopped.

 

[ralphie9181]

I prefer Hogan, he's my childhood hero, have to go with him. I'm not gonna get into who has meant more to the business and who is more popular worldwide because if you aren't stupid and just trying to be contrarion you know the answer to that. All you have to know is that without one guy, the other guy wouldn't have a business to be a star in and no company to work for.

 

[Bigrog25]

4million in sales? Seeing as how he's sold nearly 2 million alone on the original hulkamania shirt, that number can't be remotely close, I'm willing to bet these shirts weren't sold for 2 bucks a pop... Google it, highest selling shirts Austin 3:16 2.3 million shirts sold as of today hulkamania 1.9 million shirts sold to date. At $20 a shirt that comes to 38 million on that one shirt alone, so try and look shit up before you start throwing numbers around like you know WTF you're talking about.

Not to mention the millions of nWo shirts that were sold...

 

[SomeAreSet]

Everyone saying that Cena has little to no wrestling skills clearly didn't see MITB,or even his title match with Miz on Raw after Extreme Rules,or that one hour match he had with Shawn Michaels in 2007.Makes me wonder how many of them actually watch WWE shows.He's following the script he was given and very often,it involves him doing his 5 moves and getting the win.He's not the first guy to do it.Nip up,reverse atomic drop,clothesline,body slam,elbow drop from the top rope,Sweet Chin Music.Sounds familiar?Many guys have their finishing series of moves.Bret Hart had his 5 moves too.

Also,he wins because it's written in the script for him to win.Why would Cena lose to upper-mid card guys like R-Truth or Dolph Ziggler?He's jobbed to guys like Miz and Barrett,but let's conveniently forget about all that.It's like hating on Tom Cruise because he saves the world at the end of every Mission: Impossible movie.

Personally,I hate Terry Bollea.He's way more overrated than Cena will ever be.When he was popular,there was no Internet,there were no wrestling forums.There's just the odd show on TV every few weeks and few people knew that wrestling was fake or scripted and even if they did,they didn't care because they weren't watching the show,most of his audience were kids and they truly believed that Hogan was Captain America reincarnated into a yellow Hulk.Try creating a Hulk Hogan gimmick in 2011 and see how far that gets you.The fans will boo the crap out of him.He worked with Hall of Famers,way more than Cena would ever get to work with.Hogan never made The Iron Shiek,he never made Flair,he never made Sting,nor Goldberg,nor Randy Savage,nor Andre The Giant,nor Sgt. Slaughter.

Cena can wrestle,he can talk and when he does talk he doesn't repeat the same 4-5 catchphrases.He doesn't yell,he doesn't talk about killing his opponents and tearing them apart.Despite all of that,he's still a charismatic SOB.Yeah,I hate parts of him too.His corniness to his refusal to get mad to his same 5 moves of doom he performs more often than not.God damn it,Cena can put on a clinic if he wanted to,but he doesn't.It pisses Chavo off and it pisses us off too.

Secondly,Cena's an actual nice guy.He's helped more guys in the back than Hogan's ever helped in his 30-40 year career.Zack Ryder on TV?Cena supported the idea.The feud with CM Punk?Also at Cena's suggestion.Cena's willing to work with whomever in the business as long as it helps the company.Hell,he even wrestled and LOST to Kevin Federline.You know what Hogan did?He made Kevin Nash lay down for him.Guys like Cena and Orton are known to be leaders in the locker room and they get bad reps because everyone thinks they're hogging the spotlight.You wanna know the real reason they've been the top 2 guys since 2007?Because they make the most money,you dumb fucking *****.

So,in summary:

In ring skills: Cena hands down.Terry doesn't even compare.

On the mic: Terry's definitely more successful on the mic,but fans would cheer for anyone with a catchphrase.I'd say if you wanted someone to come up with a good promo with no catchphrases,Cena would be better.

Charisma: Ok,I'll give Terry this one.Cena's good,but he'll never match Terry in this department.Well,now that Terry's like 60-70 years old and everyone knows he's a scumbag,Cena does seem to be the more charismatic one these days.

Personality: Cena has personality.Terry?Ehh.Maybe he does,but it sure as hell isn't a likeable one.

Maybe I'm just jaded,but really,I never liked Terry,even when I was younger and he came back.I cheered The Rock on when they feuded,I cheered heel Shawn Michaels on when they had a feud.I cheered a heel Undertaker on when they were feuding.Nothing Terry did ever impressed me,even as a child.

Here's the main difference between Terry and Cena:

Terry: "I fight for every single one of my Hulkamaniacs out there!" * rambunctious cheers from millions of kids.

Cena: "I do this because I love it." Chorus of boos from men between the ages of 15-38 who go to WWE shows to boo Cena and crap on Divas matches (I don't blame you,some of those Divas matches are boring as shit) and then going home,logging on to the forum of their choosing and spewing even more hate on Cena.I don't want to tell them what they could be doing with their time,but you can get a lot of work done with the time you spend telling people how much Cena sucks and doesn't deserve anything.

 

[RicoLen]

Terry: "I fight for every single one of my Hulkamaniacs out there!" * rambunctious cheers from millions of kids.

Listen, I get that everyone has their differences in opinions. Mine is waaaay different than yours in regards to The Hulkster, but so be it. You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine. However, you're dead wrong about this little quote I have above. The kids barely even know who Hulk Hogan is. The KIDS you must be talking about? They're the 30-40 year old life long fans that grew up as a kid or a young teen watching this guy in the 80's.

Hollywood Hogan was garbage, it was an outrageous gimmick to make the aging legend relevant again, that paid off big time.

When you hear rambunctious cheers for Hogan that is on the scale you're talking about it's from one of the oldest demographics the show currently draws. The vets.

Also? Prime Time Wrestling, the precursor to Monday Night Raw was on Monday Nights from 9-11 on USA every week from 1985 to 1993 when it was rebranded and overhauled and renamed as Monday Night Raw. When you refer to wrestling being shown on tv periodically was Saturday Night's Main Event on NBC, which is more akin to Smackdown before it was made a regular show.

 

[tenguninja]

you cant compare the two of them
if it wasnt for hulk hogan the wrestling business wouldnt be as successful as it is today
he made wrestling, every single fan who saw hulk wrestle in his prime in the 80s will know this to be true
this is how important hogan is, he is still a major major player in wrestling and if ur gonna say im wrong, then y is it according to RATINGS in the uk tna is more watched than smackdown and equal to raw, ( i know this for a fact ) i have a friend who works for sky and have access to there database,
cena is nothing but a tool for vince to use to make money from children and there parents, in the days of hogan there was no cammed cheering or cutting to the crowd where u cant see the wrestler to fool u into thinking the people are cheering for cena, in a hogan match NO1 was sitting NO1, hogan did amazing matches in his prime, and he will always be the most famous wrestler

 

[Taker Sucks]

hahahahah REALLLY....... at the end of the day HULK HOGAN is in a HOLE fuckin different level!!!!!! just comparing these 2 is sooo disrespectful to wrestling alone.. hulk hogan made wrestling period.... John cena came in and picked at the bones and took over and got shoved down our throats as the person to cheer for!!!!!! AND who really cheers for him??????????



HOGAN MADE WRESTLING
HOGAN MADE WRESTLEMANIA
HOGAN VS ANDRA THE GIANT, HOGAN VS MACHO MAN, HOGAN VS WARRIOR, HOGAN VS THE ROCK ALONE KILL CENA CAREER
HOGAN MADE WWE
HOGAN TOOK WCW TO NUMBER 1 OVER WWE

JOHN CENA WAS BROCK LESNARS LEFT OVER
JOHN CENA GETS BOOED WEEKLY
JOHN CENA IS A WANNABE HULK HOGAN


jonh cenas best feud is with edge n that is so forgetful!!!!!!!
THIS THREAD ALONE SHOULD BE A LAUGHING STOCK....... U CANT COMPARE HOGAN TO JOHN CEAN..

You should try uploading a spell check on your internet browser -_______-

The choice is simple if you pic the better overall wrestler it is John Cena if you pick who made the impact in this business then Hulkmania. John Cena is better on the mic, amazingly ahead of Hogan in the ring, Has more Charisma, Even if he get booed half the time the pops cover it up most of the time... Cena is not the Hogan of today... He is the John Cena of today and most smarks will say JC can't wrestle worth a damn but that is a ignorance at its core. John Cena wrestles better than the legend that empowered the movement which pushed wrestling to the brink in the 80's and made it a WORLD WIDE pastime.

John Cena > Hulk Hogan

 

[Poop Master Flex]

My honest opinion is Cena isn't even in Hogan's league in any way, shape or form, its not even a competition.

Hogan was a better wrestler (my ballsack he can only do 4 moves), Hogan as many great matches on his resume (he won Match of the year 3 times and carried each match he won it), his crowd reaction absolutely buries anything Cena has ever had, did more for the business and was better on the mic even though Cena is also very good on the mic.

When it comes to passion and overall personality I would definitely give the nod to Cena. Although Hogan did more there were many times he tried to quit, was in the business because he had people constantly trying to talk him into it whereas Cena did it because he loved it. Personality I would also have to give to Cena just on the simple fact I think I would much rather hang out with Cena than Hogan. He just comes off as a more approachable guy where Hogan can often come off as an insecure asshole.

Even if Cena has a better personality and more passion for the business than Hogan it doesn't matter at the end of the day. Hogans resume speaks for itself and is the reason alot of us started watching wrestling in the first place. Just because he was often looking out for himself doesn't change all he did for the business. He was a great wrestler (sometimes people look at skill over storytelling which is silly), better on the mic, did more for the business, had more charisma, drew a HELL of a lot more and will always be remembered for his contributions (even if he is tarnishing his image these days) and was also in my all time favorite match in Rock vs. Hogan at WM18.

Hogan is miles ahead of Cena in every facet and frankly this shouldn't even be a debate. Hogan by a landslide.

 

[briancostello]

Cena...

Hogan didn't do alot when he was in his prime...leg drop? I liked him, but he would not and could not take the chances Cena does.

Also...Cena lives and breathes WWE...Hogan did, until he was not considered the top dog anymore.

 

[RJJ]

Oh god....Cena or Hogan?! Really?!Cena or THE Hulk Hogan?! I don't know what to say....I mean you're talking about the biggest icon in wrestling history, the biggest name, the biggest draw. The man that put wrestling on the map, the man that sold out more arenas than any other wrestler, the man whos the reason why we are wrestling fans in this day. And some young fans here claiming that he never had a match as big as cena vs batista??!!WTF?! Hogan-Andre(93,000 strong), Hogan-Savage, Hogan-Taker, Hogan-Rock, Hogan-Goldberg and the list goes on and on, and for those who are knocking his in-ring ability, all I got to say is watch his matches in japan. Yes cena maybe the better all around in the ring, but there is no way he's better technically, or as a showman for that matters.


This thread is pathetic and need to be closed immediatley.

 

[TheHitMark-SirJoseOle]

As long as you have stupid fucks like SomeAreSet threads like this will only continue to breath the life they have. However it's a free speech deal you can't stop these sorts of discussions from being created, however I have to once again interject the personal lives of entertainers of any medium be it pro wrestling or Hollywood and so on, should not be predicated upon their standing in their chosen entertainment field. I mean seriously who the hell do most fans think they are? The Moral Police?

Seriously, if we were basing the out of character behavior on every wrestling figure to measure their greatness then people like Steve Austin should also be docked several points like all you fucking idiots such as SomeAreSet are doing in accordance to your feelings about Hulk Hogan.

After all, Austin has gone to court TWICE over domestic violence charges.

Steve Austin Domestic Abuse Issues...Click Here.

So please, let's abstain from John Cena is such A GREATTTTT guy outside of the ring and therefore is light years above Hogan, when realistically that's the last reason most people really watch something as fantasy based as wrestling and other entertainment mediums.

If you fucking idiots really care that much about morality, then the last thing you should really be doing is wrapping yourselves up into the world of entertainment. Because that's the last place you're going to find any saints. Like I've told other fucking idiot posters here *cough cough* SomeAreSet...go join habitat for humanity or find your closest Big Brothers/Big Sisters chapter if morality is all that important to you.

Next thread I bet I am going to see on this forum is that "Chris Benoit Was A Better Human Being Than Hulk Hogan Despite Offing Himself And His Family"...hell who knows maybe someone like SomeAreSet will post it. If you do SomeAreSet.....PLEASEEEEE hook me up. Asshole.

Cena...

Hogan didn't do alot when he was in his prime...leg drop? I liked him, but he would not and could not take the chances Cena does.

Also...Cena lives and breathes WWE...Hogan did, until he was not considered the top dog anymore.

HA! Could you do any better. you mark? Sure I'll give Cena his due, he has worked some great matches, but fuck it, Hogan had a successful formula that he and the WWF didn't want to mess with. Let's not act like Hulk Hogan was the only formulaic wrestler on the planet.

I mean think of every single Ric Flair match you've ever seen, how many times has he been body slammed off the top rope or fallen flat on his face like a flopping fish taken out of the water? Seriously.

Also how many Rey Mysterio matches DON'T involve him getting his ass utterly handed to him by some titanically big and plodding individual and then somehow he pulls it all together and hits the 619. (People say the leg drop is stupid and granted the 619 is athletic and impressive as hell, but seriously you stupid marks will bitch about Hogan dropping his leg on a prone opponent and say it's not realistic but won't say anything about how Rey Mysterio pulling off the 619...what a double standard. Stupid fuck marks)

When Hogan's had to though he's worked matches outside of his comfort zone, all you have to do is watch WrestleManias 5, 6 and 18 to name just a few instances. So just because Hogan didn't always change up his formula doesn't he mean couldn't. Trust me, I am sure Hogan could outwrestle an outspoken mark like you any day of the week. Because most people who bitch about Hogan's capabilities probably eat Doritos and drink Pepsi 24/7 and can't even lift their finger let alone wrestle a match if their life depended on it.

Give John Cena another decade or so, see how he ages and see how he reacts to new talent coming up to take his place. I am sure if you were living in the year 1990 you'd be saying the same thing about Hogan living and breathing WWF till the end of time. Let's not kiss Cena's ass just yet until he reaches the same phase of his career that Hogan did when he jumped to WCW.

 

[Bigrog25]

To everyone saying cena is just such a good person and doesn't hold people down, I suggest you read the new article at wrestlezone.com where target talks about how cena really is when it comes to his spot and people possibly competing for that spot, yeah he's just such a good guy, break tarvers arm on purpose and than laugh in his face about it in the back, get people fired he thinks could be a threat to him, and so forth. Face it, ALL people who get into that top spot don't want to relinquish it, from Bruno all the way to cena, there isn't one single top guy who hasn't held people back, it just seems like hogan is the only one who gets flack for it when it was happening way before him and continues today.