The relevance here is that you are trying to pass off Alex Riley as a legit opponent while totally disregarding Bad News Brown and his achievements. But then you have already conceded the Cage match to Hart which is perhaps the reason why you are doing so.
No, Ive never done that. I simply said its "revisitionist history" when you try to cover for the fact that you've made numerous factual errors with the "Well, Alex Riley doesn't count" logic. Why doesn't he? First Cena was 0-1 in cage matches, then 1-1, because beating Alex Riley doesn't count.
The reason I conceded the cage match, if you would bother reading, is that i think this would go to a third fall, and I dont see Hart winning the Street Fight. Would you rather I reversed the order and gave Cena the Cage match? It doesn't matter to me, this is a close matchp going to three stages. Period.
And Bret Hart has also defeated Shawn Michaels in a ladder match. I like it how you try to paint the picture that he has only defeated Bad News Brown in a ladder match.
Nooooo. I said several times that he defeated a "before his prime" HBK in a ladder match. It was HBK's first ladder match, and he was in the early stages of his career as a single's competitor, while Hart was in his prime. I was quite clear about that. Again, dont let the facts get in the way of your argument.
So Edge defeats Cena and Bret Hart defeats Bad News Brown and HBK in a ladder match.
Again, where are yu getting your facts from? Dude, you know NOTHING about wrestling history. Cena WON that match. How many matches are you going to screw up here. Cena FU'd Edge through 2 tables to win the match!
OH WAIT! I almost forgot to add that Cena has defeated Edge in a TLC match. Now I checked some ladder matches and I saw that you can only use the ladder as a weapon in a ladder match. So technically Cena has never competed in a ladder match.
Since when? Ive seen multiple ladder matches where tables and chairs were involved! Take E&C vs. the Dudley's vs the Hardys. What did the Dudley's use? Tables. What did E&C use? Chairs. It was a triangle ladder match. There are NO DQ's in a ladder match. Again, dont let facts get in the way. Ive seen plenty of ladder matches in my day and Ive never seen a DQ, a restart, and Ive seen plenty of interference and other weapons used. Get out of here with that bullcrap. Your arguments just keep getting weaker.
He has competed in a TLC in which while you have to climb the ladder to win the match, you have a hell lot of weapons at your disposal to allow you to win the match.
So what youre saying is he fought in a HARDER environment then Hart ever did? Got it. Again, No DQ's in a ladder match, so Cena would have the advantage in using other weapons in a ladder match, where Hart never did.
So Hart is 2-0 in singles ladder matches while Cena is 0-0.
No, hes not, and now you're just embarasing yourself. He won his only ladder match, in a tougher environment.
Cannot believe I missed this but Edge is great at TLC matches which are quite a bit different from ladder matches. You cannot use a chair or a table in a ladder match.
Since when? How did the HHH/HBK 3 stages of Hell LADDER match end? With HBK going through a TABLE. There's precedence in just those two matches and many more. There are no DQ's in a ladder match. Find me one.
Oh for fuck's sake I am not talking about what Cena did in the midcard. This is about Hart making a main eventer who never taps out, tap out. That is what Hart accomplished when he made Undertaker tap out. He can make Cena tap whether you like it or not.
Ummm...then where did the "Cena tapped plenty of times" come from in your last post? That was in the midcard. I love the "whether you like it or not" argument, because it means you have nothing to back it up. Cena hasn't tapped in his prime, and he won't to Hart. Cena, being the stronger of the two, would be more likely to make Hart tap.
Cena is yet to tap out but he has not faced anyone like Hart when Hart was in his prime. Hart never lost in his prime and made even the toughest of guys tap to the Sharpshooter. Who has Cena faced who can make him tap out? A midcard version of Benoit, a past his prime Kurt Angle.
The "past his prime" Kurt Angle that chased Cena for half a year, then immediately went to Smackdown and WON the World Title, then defended it multiple times against the friggin Undertaker? Got it. How is that past his prime, pray tell?
Oh Wait maybe you will talk about Chris Jericho who last made a main eventer tap out in 2003!
The Jericho that won 3 World Titles since his return is the one Im talking about. Just so were clear. Another man in his prime.
How many times has Hart tapped out in his career? Yep Zero. How many guys defeated Hart from 1993 to 1996 ie in his prime. Yep as few as the guys who defeated Cena.
Ive never called Hart a weak opponent, have I? That would be no.
And for one final time this is not about Cena and what he did in the midcard. Try not to misinterpret what I say. This is about Bret and him making a guy as invincible, if not more, as Cena tap out.
You made the claim that Cena "tapped out a handful of times." I pointed out that it was when he was in the midcard. That's all. There's never been anyone as invincible in their prime as Cena. Until you show me Cena tapping in his prime, this is speculation on your part, and nothing more. I like facts. Fact: Cena has never tapped, or quit in his prime. Prove me wrong.
He clicked the handcuffs open with a key. Seriously this is your big arguement? That he got lucky and found the key to handcuffs and that is why he is going to break the sharpshooter. Honestly I hope you are joking or else this arguement is just dumb.
Dude, are you really that dense? I never said he broke the handucuffs off. Remember that pesky thing called facts I keep talking about that keeps eluding you? Were there again.
If Cena didnt quit while handcuffed, why would he quit to a HUMAN hold?
And my argument is that Cena would be able to power out of the sharpshooter, or that he wouldnt let Bret put it on him. Cena does have the strength advantage and all. Seeing how all the greats of his generation from Angle to Edge to Jericho to Orton to HHH to HBK tapped to Cena's STFU, Id say the chaces of Hart tapping to Cena are greater.
He did not escape the handcuffs by just forcing them open. He merely capitalised on a mistake by Orton and found the key.
Never said that. Again, youre being rediculous. He was in the handcuffs for approximately five minutes while Orton wailed away on him. I didnt say he broke them, I said he "didnt quit". Notice the difference. Again, sorry to be so pesky with actual facts.
Um yes, and applying a sharpshooter for 10 minutes would do absolutely no damage to Cena's legs with which he would try to escape.
Which would never happen. One of two things would. Either Cena would overpower Hart like he has EVERYONE else, or he wouldn't get caught in the hold to begin with. Youre assuming som ething would happen although any and all evidence says that he won't.
Well that is merely shortsigtedness on your behalf. I cannot help it if you refuse to acknowledge facts. Then let me ask you why "Superman Cena" could not defeat HBK even after an hour when no stoppage happened in that match unlike what happened in the Iron man match?
What facts have you presented? Theres no shame in losing to one of the all time greats. Both Hart and Cena lost to HBK. Th difference? Cena made HBK tap out weeks earlier. Hart didn't. Those are what we call facts. Cena would make Hart tap to the STFU sooner then the other way around.
Angle may be the best example but it is still not close.
Yes, it is. Theyre different wrestlers but Angle is as tehnical as it gets. Angle was more of a suplex machine but he picks body parts apart, same as Hart. He also made HBK tap out, when Hart couldn't. Notice the trend?
As for Austin, he broke the sharpshooter for a brief moment before Hart applied it once again. It is also worth noting that this was so because Hart had already subjected Austin to a hellacious beating in a hardcore environment. Which means that he can very well dish out a hellacious beating in a hardcore environment.
It was a hellacious beating BOTH ways, and still Austin broke the hold. Someone has. Noone has broken the STFU, other then by getting to the ropes. And this was an upper mid-card Austin who broke the sharpshooter, which is worth noting.I never said that Hart couldnt fight in a hardcore environment. I simply said Cena was better, then provided proof.
Angle has been in the main event picture is surely a good achievement. However Bret Hart was THE MAIN EVENT for three years. Angle has been a main eventer while Hart was THE main eventer. There is a difference here.
Angle was the main event as well. He won his first World Title in 2000, and his last in 2006. Thats SEVEN years, last time I checked. The difference is Angle was in the main event picture longer. Youre right, theres a big difference.
And Benoit? He had fallen to the midcard by then. He wrestled in the US Championship match at WrestleMania did he not? Not relevant here.
He's far more relevant then Bad News Brown. Thats the man you want to use as a testament to Hart's big ladder match prowess, and Benoits not relevant? Please. There was noone tougher then Benoit, certainly not Bad News Brown.
Why getting to the ropes is surely a counter but it is not one in a hardcore match in which there are no rope breaks. You have to either force open the move or counter it. The sharpshooter has never ever been countered even by the strongest of men like Diesel and Undertaker. I do not think Cena will be able to do the same.
That's where youre just plain wrong. Cena has countered EVERY submission move he's ever been in, to one of his own most times. I was simply pointing out that noone has done that to Cena. Cena would pick Hart up the same way he has with everyone else whose applied a submission to his legs, and once again, we'd hear about the great strength of John Cena.
If I had to pick one man to just counter any move on the planet, that would be Bret Hart. Remember how he countered the sleeper hold into a pin? He can find a counter to the STF that might be unimaginable to you and me.
And Cena, as Ive said, has countered every submission he's ever been in. Thats the thing with John. He's never needed the ropes for a break. Hes powered out of every submission hold. You might be right that Hart would know a counter, but could he outmuscle Cena? The sleeper isnt exactly the STFU, it works over far more of the body. I know what youre saying, and Hart knew counters for most. But Cena has, in the end, outmuscled everyone he's wrestled. Men much bigger. He made Big Show tap, twice, to the STFU.
Hart might know a counter, but all the counters in the world dont matter when youre in the STFU. Noone has ever broken it. Hart's sharpshooter has been broken. Advantage: Cena.
Undertaker has always been in his prime. He is a character that has been designed never to tap out. Also how do you explain the fact that Undertaker has never tapped out EVER again? No shortsighted arguement of yours can explain thaat phenomena.
There's nothing shortsighted about 7 years of being in the main event and never tapping out, and generally reversing every submission hold he's ever been in to one of his own. 7 years is a long time.
And yes so why hasn't Undertaker ever tapped out again? Has Cena faced anyone like Bret Hart? You are not taking every point into consideration.
Ive answered these questions time and again. No two wrestlers are the same. Ive taken Bret Hart into consideration, time and again. That's why I've noted this to be a close matchup, which you idiotically dismissed as "two straight falls for Hart."
Have you taken into consideration John Cena? Has Hart faced anyone the likes of Cena? Heck no. Austin and Diesel aren't Cena, and they certainly weren't booked that way. They were much more beatable. The closest comparison to Hart, for the fifteenth time, is Angle, who is a great technical wrestler. If you dont like the answer, say so, but stop with asking the same questions 15 times when Ive answered them over and over. I dont care about Taker here,Ive addressed the point, you simply don't like the answer because you have no response. Hes NOT in this match, nor is he John Cena.
OH should I forget about Survivor Series 1992 when Hart made HBK tap? Or should I forget about the hour long match that HBK won against Cena as Cena was UNABLE to make HBK tap for over an hour?
Big advantage to Cena here. This was the early days of HBK, before his prime. Cena beat him in the main event of Wrestlemania, where HBK beat Hart in the main event of Wrestlemania. You see that? Cena over HBK, in his prime, by submission. HBK over Hart, on the same stage. Cena beat him the month before by submission. You've said this once before about HBK. Stop repeating yourself, it makes you sound weak.
No but he can do a hell lot of damage to the legs of Mr Cena by applying the Sharpshooter and the figure four around the ring post. Like I said Cena can't exactly fly.
And how exactly is he going to ground Cena long enough to apply the Sharpshooter? Cena has a better chance of grounding Hart and applying the STFU then Hart does the SS or the Figure Four. Cena's not just going to "lay down" and let Hart apply the move. Get out of here with this crap. Cena wouldn't be trapped in the move for long, if at all. He never is.
Yeah and Hart has not been outlasted as well. Hart lost to HBK in an Ironman match whom even Cena could not defeat in an hour on one occasion.
How is that not being outlasted when he...lost the Ironman match? Thats the definition of being outlasted! The difference is Cena and HBK's match wasn't an Ironman match. Hart and HBK's was. Different match type= different strategy.
The recent precedent was, (emphasis on recent so ypou dont try to pull out an event 3-5 years prior), was Cena beat HBK THREE WEEKS earlier by submission, on a bigger stage, for a bigger prize. A Non-title match means alot less then a title match. Again, facts getting in the way of your flawed logic.
Yeah and Cena is going to do what no man has ever done? That is beat the piss out of Hart. And FYI no one lets you conserve energy. You do that by planning well beforehand and thinking on your feet in the match. Something that Bret can certainly do..
It would take a substantial beating to win the street fight. Neither man is going down easy. How many times do I have to say it? Man, you are thick. It would take a substantial beating for either to go down, except Cena is the better brawler. Im not saying its not an environment that Hart hasn't, and couldn't, thrive in. I just think its a scenario that favors Cena.
HBK did not break Hart's hold. Hart let go. Not the same thing at all. And yes HBK escaped the STF quite a few times before it got applied. He has not done the same with the Sharpshooter.
You can't escape a hold before its been applied. And yes, several times in the IronMan match Hart tried to apply the sharpshooter before he was finally able to at the 59:00 minute or so mark. He escaped having the STFU applied, but not the hold itself. There's a big difference between escaping having a hold applied, and escaping one on you.
I already admitted that mistake. Cena lost to JBL in a New York Parking Lot Brawl. That was against a past his prime JBL mind you not that his prime was exactly wort noting.
You made that assertion in your last post, how could you have acknowledged it? Unless someone else pointed it out to you as well. Like I said, all brawls are difficult, and everyone comes out of it beat up. There's no shame in losing to a an who was nothing but a brawler in JBL in that environment.
Bret is not going to use power at all. He is going make judicious use of the environment and defeat Cena. It is not that he hasn't done it earlier.
You know what Hart is going to use? Wow. Hart brawled as well. You don't think Cena has made judicious use of the environment before? How about the pipe to JBL? Using the handcuffs on Orton with the STFU? Using the ring ropes on Umaga with the STFU? Even tying Batista down with duct tape? Cena is a smart brawler, and Ive just shown several environmental examples of how Cena defeated opponents. He'ld do the same to Bret.
This is false. Hart has faced a brawler in a ladder match. That is the experience that he needs. Has Cena faced the likes of Hart in a ladder match. A guy who can weaken your legs and other body parts by a methodical attack and leave you unable to climb a ladder.
If you seriously want to compare Bad News Brown to John Cena in terms of ability, theres no help for you. Cena has faced a better ladder match competitor in Edge in a ladder match, and he beat him, despite interference. The fact that its simply a ladder match favors Cena more because he's been in the most hardcore of ladder matches, and come out on top. That's more then sufficient. Can Hart say the same? No. There's no dq's in a ladder match, no restarts, etc. Theres been plenty of interference, as well as chairs and tables.
It's not always about power. Some times it is about technique and Hart is more technically proficient and not to mention much smarter than Batista.
So smart then instead of focusing on winning his Ironman match against Shawn Michaels, he let himself get caught of guard because he lost focus due to anger? Id say thats not very smart. Youre right, its not always about power, but thats what Cena has used to reverse holds and apply his own. Its what he would use here, if he got caught at all.
This shows how much you read my posts. I mentioned it very clearly that those were the people Edge beat BEFORE Cena beat him. AT THAT POINT, if we are to go by who Edge defeated Edge was not the best ladder match competitor of all time.
No, you just said those were some of the people Edge had beaten. Do you remember how the match was billed. It was Edge's match, he never loses! Cena is out of his element! Yet Cena adapted quickly, in his first ever ladder match, and won the match at that. Ill take that over Hart beating a before his prime HBK and Bad News Brown.
Experience is a non factor as both men have experience. Hart has faced and defeated powerful men in a streetfight.
Experience is a factor in that Cena, as Ive shown, has used the element over and again to win street fights and matches like it. He's 2-1 in cage matches, and only lost 1 because SEVEN men interfered. And he beat the best ladder match competitor of all time in his hometown with his career and the title on the line. It doesnt get more meaningful then that.
No offense, because I like you, but your facts are getting more misconstrued and your arguments weaker in the same way Hart's lead is slippng.
