Houston Region, Fourth Round: 3 Stages of Hell: (2) The Rock vs. (3) Randy Savage

[klunderbunker]

The following contest is a fourth round match in the Houston Region.

This match takes place in the Astrodome in Houston, Texas.

It is a 3 Stages of Hell match.

Rules: This is a 2/3 Falls match. The first fall will be a street fight match. The second fall will be inside a steel cage. The third fall will be a ladder match.

#2 The Rock

Vs.

#3 Randy Savage

This contest is one fall with a 60 minute time limit. The match will take place in a 16 x 16 ring with no ramp leading to it. Any traditional managers for either competitor will be allowed at ringside.

As for voting, vote for who you think would win this match based on the criteria you choose. Some suggestions would be (not limited to): in ring ability, overall skill, their level of influence at the highest point in their career, ability to connect with the crowd, experience in major matches or simply personal preference etc.

The most votes in the voting period wins and in the case of a tie, the most written votes wins. There is one written vote per user, meaning if a poster make ten posts saying Bret should win that will count as a single vote. In the event of a second tie, both men are ELIMINATED, no questions asked. Only winners advance.

Voting will open in 48 hours and will be open for five days and all posts must be non-spam. You may use the 48 hours to present your cases as to why either competitor should/should not win.​

 

[PsychoBlack]

Holy shit, this is a slobberknocker if i have ever seen one. These two are really evenly matched. I see Rock winning the street fight while Savage takes it in the Cage. A ladder match between these two could be fun because both of them have a ice blend of speed and strength, however, I see Rock taking it because of his experience in ladder matches, and even though he lost, he proved to me that he understood the proper psychology to win in those types of matches. Rock gets my vote here

 

[The Brain]

I'm thinkng this should go to Savage. He has more of a killer instinct than Rock which will benefit him in the streetfight. I could see Rock winning the cage match and forcing the ladder match. I know Rock has experience in ladder matches and Savage doesn't. I don't see that being an issue. Savage always looked comfortable on the top rope so I don't think he would be the least bit intimidated by a ladder. I bet if Bret Hart brought the idea of the ladder match to Vince a few years earlier Savage would have been the guinea pig. I could just picture Savage excelling at the ladder match. The Rock could save face a bit by getting a win in the second fall but ultimately Savage goes over.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Man, there are some real head scratchers for me in the fourth round and this is yet another.

The first fall, in my opinion, goes to The Rock. The Rock generally isn't someone that comes across as vicious but he does have that vicious streak inside him. Remember what he did to Mick Foley in that I Quit match way back when. The Rock unleashed sheer brutality on Foley and I have no trouble whatsoever believing that he could do the same thing to Savage.

I'm giving the second fall to Savage. In order for Rock to beat Savage in the street fight, he'd have to beat him damn near to death and I just think Savage would be in pretty rough shape. However, I think The Rock would probably get a little overconfident here. He'd have several opportunities to get the win but his ego would get the best of him. He'd dick around and give Savage enough time to make a comeback and he'd be able to escape the cage.

In the third fall, I think Rock would ultimately take it. Both guys would be in pretty rough shape by now but I just see Savage as ultimately having taken the worst of it. The Rock is an intelligent guy and would know how comfortable Savage is climbing up high places. Rock does a lot of work on Savage's knee during the match and that'd most definitely slow up some of Savage's best offense and reduce his mobility.

 

[SavageTaker]

The Rock may have been the most electrifying wrestler of his era, or maybe even ever, however he is no “Macho Man.” Randy Savage is one of the best wrestlers to have ever lived and not many, including Rocky, can compare to his wrestling ability and how savvy he was. He was quick, agile and had impeccable wrestling psychology, something Rocky seemed to be missing for a lot of his career.

Randy put on some of the most memorable wrestling matches ever, we call them classics. Aside from putting on classics with the likes of Ricky Steamboat, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan and many other men, he is also a multiple time world champion having held it six times and only losing it to two men in every occasion, Flair and Hogan. Aside from holding the world titles and having a nice year long at one point, he also held the Intercontinental Champion when it was full of prestige and honor. He held that title for over a year and at that time it was one of the longest reigns the title had ever seen.

Many people see Savage as the man who was able to put on amazing matches with just about anyone, including The Ultimate Warrior, but many don't remember he had a hardcore side in him. He competed in multiple gimmick matches such as Lumberjack matches, falls count anywhere, steel cage matches and those are just off the top of my head. So Rocky would definitely not be a problem in the street fight portion of the match seeing as how Randy has experience in hardcore matches and has actually won many of those type of matches. Therefore, I don't see Randy losing this match at all since he is way quicker and more agile than The Rock and would probably escape an attack from The Rock with a weapon.

After the street fight we have a steel cage match, another match Randy has experience in and actually benefits. Like mentioned above, Randy is quicker and more agile but he's also the more intelligent wrestler. Randy is no pushover so don't expect for him to have the match in the bag and all of a sudden losing it all by jumping off the cage onto The Rock like Jeff Hardy would do. Randy was not a wrestler that made simple mistakes like that so don't expect for it to happen here. Once he has The Rock down and out he will climb out of the cage as fast as possible and not look back. He has experience in these matches and has won in them so I don't see why he wouldn't be able to beat Rocky here.

And the last match (if we do get to this point) is the Ladder match. While he may not have a lot of experience here he can still pull out the win. So let's get real folks, a ladder match is not as hard to win as some people would like you to believe. Randy doesn't need to have wrestled in a ladder match in order to know how to climb a ladder. If he's able to climb steel cages and whatnot then he can certainly climb the ladder here and win the match. Furthermore, He is known for being able to go for long amounts of time in a match and not get tired which will work for him here. He came from an era in which men would regularly wrestle 60-minute matches all week long and still have a lot more fuel left in tank. So will Randy be tired once we enter the third match? Very doubtful. So I would award him the win after tiring out Rocky a little bit more and climbing that ladder with absolutely no problem.

Ladies and gentlemen I have presented you with my case for why Randy Savage should go over the Rock and while it may not be as good as why Lou Thesz goes over Sting, I can assure you that a man who has defeated multiple legends like Bret Hart, Ric Flar, Ricky Steamboat and many more could easily go over someone who was never able to reach their full potential. So I urge to vote for the better wrestler here who was able to show everything he's got in all types of matches throughout his illustrious career.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

I can see voting either way. It's definitely going to the third fall. I think Savage would get too macho and do something too high risk in one of the first two falls.

I'm leaning towards The Rock...but I will wait to see more arguments for both.

 

[The Crock]

I'm voting for The Rock. This would be a very close contest, needing the third fall, no doubt. These two men have different styles, but both are legends in the business. I honestly just don't know how Savage would be able to beat Rock in the ladder match. Sure, Savage is more comfortable as a high flier, but he would also take some unnecessary risks and Rock would exploit that. Also, Rock has much more experience in ladder matches, that is always a valuable factor in any match type. He would feel more comfortable, Savage would be in unknown territory.

First fall (street fight): I see no reason that The Rock doesn't win this. Rock is very brutal and he likes to brawl. He has been in tons of matches where weapons have come into play and where he has had to brawl all over the arena, why wouldn't he be able to come out on top versus Savage? This man has participated in Hell in a Cell matches,in that WrestleMania Fatal Four Way match, and in many other brutal matches, he has a mean streak. Don't forget, he took out the entire McMahon-Helmsley faction. He will destroy Savage, absolutely pick him apart.

Second fall (cage match): Like Jack-Hammer said, Rock would probably get overconfident. Savage would be able to build up a comeback, he'd eventually find enough strength to escape the cage. That's not to say it would be easy though, Rock would still beat down Savage quite a bit, leaving him in worse condition for the third fall.

Third fall (ladder match): The Rock would win this. I mean, after all, The Rock won his third WWF Championship in a ladder match against Mankind. Experience means everything here. Savage would undoubtedly make the mistake of doing something way too high risk, and Rock would capitalize on that, and climb the ladder to win the match. The Rock is just too intelligent to lose this third fall.

Vote Rocky!

 

[SavageTaker]

I'm voting for The Rock. This would be a very close contest, needing the third fall, no doubt. These two men have different styles, but both are legends in the business. I honestly just don't know how Savage would be able to beat Rock in the ladder match. Sure, Savage is more comfortable as a high flier, but he would also take some unnecessary risks and Rock would exploit that.

I was with you until you said you don't know how Savage would be able to beat The Rock in a ladder match. Also, Savage would NOT take any unnecessary risks here. He wasn't anything like Jeff Hardy or Mick Foley, two men who have made their careers be known because they took those unnecessary risks. Savage was much more calculating and much more intelligent and he knew when it was the right time to go to the top rope and when it wasn't. Anyways, Savage wasn't the type of wrestler that had all sorts of high flying moves and with the few he had, he executed them perfectly and very rarely did he mess up. As a matter of fact I don't ever remember seeing a Randy Savage match where he messed up. So the chances of Randy taking an unnecessary risk are slim to none.

Also, Rock has much more experience in ladder matches, that is always a valuable factor in any match type. He would feel more comfortable, Savage would be in unknown territory.

Here is the same bullshit argument someone brings up every year in this tournament. So and so has more experience in this type of match so they would win. No, just because The Rock has some more experience in ladder matches it doesn't mean he would win. It's not like Randy doesn't know how to climb. He has defeated other people in cage matches by climbing out of a cage so climbing a ladder is no challenge.

First fall (street fight): I see no reason that The Rock doesn't win this. Rock is very brutal and he likes to brawl. He has been in tons of matches where weapons have come into play and where he has had to brawl all over the arena, why wouldn't he be able to come out on top versus Savage? This man has participated in Hell in a Cell matches,in that WrestleMania Fatal Four Way match, and in many other brutal matches, he has a mean streak. Don't forget, he took out the entire McMahon-Helmsley faction. He will destroy Savage, absolutely pick him apart.

You act as though Savage has never wrestled in a hardcore environment before. He has wrestled in falls count anywhere matches, cage matches, e.t.c. So he too definitely is not afraid to get hardcore and dish out pain to his opponents. Just ask DDP and the other men he defeated in hardcore environments.

Second fall (cage match): Like Jack-Hammer said, Rock would probably get overconfident. Savage would be able to build up a comeback, he'd eventually find enough strength to escape the cage. That's not to say it would be easy though, Rock would still beat down Savage quite a bit, leaving him in worse condition for the third fall.

Here is the thing though, Rock wouldn't leave him in worse condition for the next match. Savage is agile and quick. He could escape anything the Rock throws at him easily. Randy could use his stamina to tire out The Rock and give him the final blow which would allow for him to climb out the case with ease and win this match without using his energy and without much damage being inflicted on him since he can dodge just about anything the Rock throws at him.

Third fall (ladder match): The Rock would win this. I mean, after all, The Rock won his third WWF Championship in a ladder match against Mankind. Experience means everything here. Savage would undoubtedly make the mistake of doing something way too high risk, and Rock would capitalize on that, and climb the ladder to win the match. The Rock is just too intelligent to lose this third fall.

Please tell me Crock, how hard is it to climb a ladder? I've done it several times and I'm no professional wrestler so I don't see why Randy needs experience in a ladder match to win it. He is a much more versatile wrestler and he's wrestled in several types of environment so this match would not cause any trouble for him.

And also, tell me what mistake that is “way too high risk” would Savage make? As mentioned earlier, he doesn't make mistakes that would cost him matches. So he definitely wouldn't start now.

Vote Rocky!

No. Vote for the better wrestler that has given us many more memorable moments throughout wrestling history, the “Macho Man” Randy Savage.

 

[The Crock]

I was with you until you said you don't know how Savage would be able to beat The Rock in a ladder match. Also, Savage would NOT take any unnecessary risks here. He wasn't anything like Jeff Hardy or Mick Foley, two men who have made their careers be known because they took those unnecessary risks. Savage was much more calculating and much more intelligent and he knew when it was the right time to go to the top rope and when it wasn't. Anyways, Savage wasn't the type of wrestler that had all sorts of high flying moves and with the few he had, he executed them perfectly and very rarely did he mess up. As a matter of fact I don't ever remember seeing a Randy Savage match where he messed up. So the chances of Randy taking an unnecessary risk are slim to none.

Yes, but it would take something huge to put Rock away. Savage would inevitably try to do something big and it would bite him in the ass. I understand he wasn't a "high flier" but he did use some top rope moves, and ANY top rope move is risky. Any one of them can make or break a match, so when Savage goes up to the top, Rock can roll out of the way, put his knees up, a variety of things that would hurt Savage greatly.

Here is the same bullshit argument someone brings up every year in this tournament. So and so has more experience in this type of match so they would win. No, just because The Rock has some more experience in ladder matches it doesn't mean he would win. It's not like Randy doesn't know how to climb. He has defeated other people in cage matches by climbing out of a cage so climbing a ladder is no challenge.

So what you're trying to say is that experience doesn't matter, how foolish. Tell me, do you think Savage would be prepared for that first shot of the ladder? Hell no he wouldn't. I mean, it would hurt Rocky too, but at least he knows what to expect. Savage would be in different territory. I never said the man didn't know how to climb, much more goes into a ladder match, not just climbing.

You act as though Savage has never wrestled in a hardcore environment before. He has wrestled in falls count anywhere matches, cage matches, e.t.c. So he too definitely is not afraid to get hardcore and dish out pain to his opponents. Just ask DDP and the other men he defeated in hardcore environments.

I never said he hasn't wrestled in hardcore matches, just nowhere near the amount that Rock has... and he is nowhere near as good at them as The Rock is. Hell, Rocky used to be in matches that included weapons on a nearly weekly basis, this is the Attitude Era we're talking about after all. Rocky knows what he's doing out there, and while Savage does as well, he isn't as good as Rock.

Here is the thing though, Rock wouldn't leave him in worse condition for the next match. Savage is agile and quick. He could escape anything the Rock throws at him easily. Randy could use his stamina to tire out The Rock and give him the final blow which would allow for him to climb out the case with ease and win this match without using his energy and without much damage being inflicted on him since he can dodge just about anything the Rock throws at him.

Oh so Rock isn't quick? Please, spare me of this argument. Rocky isn't Andre The Giant, he could easily land shots on Andre. If you're denying that, then God help you. Also, you make it look like Rock has no stamina at all. A battered Savage does not have the same amount of energy left in the tank that Rocky does, so after that first match I don't think he'd have much over Rock in that department.

Please tell me Crock, how hard is it to climb a ladder? I've done it several times and I'm no professional wrestler so I don't see why Randy needs experience in a ladder match to win it. He is a much more versatile wrestler and he's wrestled in several types of environment so this match would not cause any trouble for him.

And also, tell me what mistake that is “way too high risk” would Savage make? As mentioned earlier, he doesn't make mistakes that would cost him matches. So he definitely wouldn't start now.

Did I ever say it is hard to climb a ladder? Nope. Not once. So maybe you should stop twisting my words, eh? He needs experience, just like he needs experience in every match. He would definitely need to get into the swing of it and like I said before, he would definitely not be accustomed to being smacked with a ladder.

Okay, think about it this way, Savage tries to hit an elbow off the ladder and Rock rolls out of the way. That would be one hell of a mistake, and a realistic one in this match.

No. Vote for the better wrestler that has given us many more memorable moments throughout wrestling history, the “Macho Man” Randy Savage.

Yup, Rocky!

 

[SavageTaker]

Yes, but it would take something huge to put Rock away. Savage would inevitably try to do something big and it would bite him in the ass. I understand he wasn't a "high flier" but he did use some top rope moves, and ANY top rope move is risky.

What part of Savage doesn't take unnecessary risks don't you understand? He is an intelligent wrestler. He knows when something will work and when something won't in a match. Therefore, he wouldn't take any risks that he knows just wouldn't work and at the end come back to bite him. And you might be right about any top rope move being risky. But here is the thing, Savage executed all of his moves with perfection so any risks would be eliminated since he never had any problems nor did he struggle when he was at the top of those ropes.

Any one of them can make or break a match, so when Savage goes up to the top, Rock can roll out of the way, put his knees up, a variety of things that would hurt Savage greatly.

When Savage used the flying elbow he knew that his opponents wouldn't magically roll out of the way. Why? Because that was Savage's finisher and by the time he attempted to go to the top rope he knew he had done enough damage to keep his opponents down long enough for him to deliver the elbow drop. So it's not like he would randomly go up and attempt his finisher. So he would only do it when he knew he would hit it with no problem. And as far as The Rock putting his knees up, I don't know how flexible he is, but I doubt he can get his knees to be on top of his neck; the place where Savage usually hit when he did the flying elbow drop.

So what you're trying to say is that experience doesn't matter, how foolish. Tell me, do you think Savage would be prepared for that first shot of the ladder? Hell no he wouldn't. I mean, it would hurt Rocky too, but at least he knows what to expect. Savage would be in different territory. I never said the man didn't know how to climb, much more goes into a ladder match, not just climbing.

So you're telling me that Savage wouldn't know what to expect when he is hit by a ladder? Is that really your argument?

Any human, pro wrestle or not, knows what to expect when they get hit by a metal object. Pain. Savage is not some dumb hillbilly Crock. He knows that if he gets hit by a ladder it's going to hurt, anyone knows that. Also, you act as though Savage has never been hit with other metal objects. I'm sure he has been hit with chairs and what not so really that argument is invalid.

I never said he hasn't wrestled in hardcore matches, just nowhere near the amount that Rock has... and he is nowhere near as good at them as The Rock is. Hell, Rocky used to be in matches that included weapons on a nearly weekly basis, this is the Attitude Era we're talking about after all. Rocky knows what he's doing out there, and while Savage does as well, he isn't as good as Rock.

So just because The Rock wrestled in many more matches that were hardcore he is better? So we are just going to ignore that Savage has been in many matches that had hardcore environments as well and actually won in a lot of them? Yet another invalid argument in your case for The Rock since Savage has been in many hardcore matches too and has won a vast majority of them. I could easily find you 5 matches in which The Rock wrestled in a hardcore environment and lost. As a matter of fact, I will do that:

Wrestlemania 15: He lost to Stone Cold in a No DQ match.
Backlash: In Your House: Lost to Stone Cold again this time in a No Hold Barred Match.
Fully Loaded: Lost to Triple H in a a Strap match.
I'm not sure when this happened, but it was an empty arena match in which he lost to Mankind.
SummerSlam 1998: Lost to Triple again this time in a ladder match.

And those are just a few matches which he lost, I could easily go and find more matches.

Oh so Rock isn't quick? Please, spare me of this argument.

I never said he wasn't. He is, he just isn't as quick and agile as Randy Savage.

Rocky isn't Andre The Giant, he could easily land shots on Andre. If you're denying that, then God help you.

Who cares if he can land shots on Andre, he's wrestling Savage here not Andre.

Also, you make it look like Rock has no stamina at all. A battered Savage does not have the same amount of energy left in the tank that Rocky does, so after that first match I don't think he'd have much over Rock in that department.

I never claimed Rocky had not stamina at all so don't misinterpret what I say. However, Savage wrestled in an era where men would regularly go on for 60 minutes a night for 7 days a week and not be tired at the end. I definitely think Savage has Rocky beat in the stamina department and would definitely have much more of it after this match.

Did I ever say it is hard to climb a ladder? Nope. Not once. So maybe you should stop twisting my words, eh? He needs experience, just like he needs experience in every match. He would definitely need to get into the swing of it and like I said before, he would definitely not be accustomed to being smacked with a ladder.

Then what experience does he really need here? He doesn't need to learn how to climb since he has done that many a times and he doesn't need to know what to expect when he gets hit by a ladder since he has been hit with other objects and as mentioned earlier, it's common sense that if you get hit by a ladder it will hurt, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that. So please tell me exactly what experience Savage needs to have in order to win this match?

Ladder matches are much more simple than you make them seem. Savage was a skillful wrestler and he knows that if you want to go up that ladder with no one stopping you then he needs to beat his opponent to the point they stay down long enough for him to climb the ladder and win. He would definitely have no problem doing that, they call him savage for a reason you know.

Okay, think about it this way, Savage tries to hit an elbow off the ladder and Rock rolls out of the way. That would be one hell of a mistake, and a realistic one in this match.

You're just thinking of scenarios that would never happen because Savage just doesn't take those sorts of risks where they'll end up biting him in the ass at the end of the match. As a matter of fact, the veteran in Randy Savage would most likely catch The Rock in a lot more mistakes than you think and capitalize in each and every single one of them.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

I'm plumping for Macho here, I think Rock would have the edge in the Streetfight as the bigger guy but Randy's natural ability are glove fits for Cage and Ladder matches.

The Macho Man to come back to win 2-1 after incapacitating Rocky with the Elbow from the top of the ladder.

 

[The Crock]

What part of Savage doesn't take unnecessary risks don't you understand? He is an intelligent wrestler. He knows when something will work and when something won't in a match. Therefore, he wouldn't take any risks that he knows just wouldn't work and at the end come back to bite him. And you might be right about any top rope move being risky. But here is the thing, Savage executed all of his moves with perfection so any risks would be eliminated since he never had any problems nor did he struggle when he was at the top of those ropes.

You make it seem as if Savage has never made a mistake, he most certainly has. The Rock would give him a stiff amount of competition, he wouldn't be able to think through what's going on clearly, he would have to make a brash decision at some point. He wouldn't have the time to calculate what would work and what wouldn't.

When Savage used the flying elbow he knew that his opponents wouldn't magically roll out of the way. Why? Because that was Savage's finisher and by the time he attempted to go to the top rope he knew he had done enough damage to keep his opponents down long enough for him to deliver the elbow drop. So it's not like he would randomly go up and attempt his finisher. So he would only do it when he knew he would hit it with no problem. And as far as The Rock putting his knees up, I don't know how flexible he is, but I doubt he can get his knees to be on top of his neck; the place where Savage usually hit when he did the flying elbow drop.

I've seen him hit it lower, or from a different angle, so the knees could work in certain scenarios. Savage could weaken him as much as he wants, but Rock can still roll out of the way. As a matter of fact, I was just reading a review of an old WWF show, and Savage was facing Ted DiBiase. He went up to the top rope and... MISSED the elbow. So that right there proves that it's possible for Rock to roll out of the way, doesn't it?

So you're telling me that Savage wouldn't know what to expect when he is hit by a ladder? Is that really your argument?

Any human, pro wrestle or not, knows what to expect when they get hit by a metal object. Pain. Savage is not some dumb hillbilly Crock. He knows that if he gets hit by a ladder it's going to hurt, anyone knows that. Also, you act as though Savage has never been hit with other metal objects. I'm sure he has been hit with chairs and what not so really that argument is invalid.

He knows it will hurt, but I don't he knows how bad it will hurt. It would be something totally new to his body, a total shock for his system. It would take him a bit to shake it off, no doubt. Well, of course he's been hit by chairs, but chairs are nowhere as bad as ladders. Totally different ball game in a ladder match.

So just because The Rock wrestled in many more matches that were hardcore he is better? So we are just going to ignore that Savage has been in many matches that had hardcore environments as well and actually won in a lot of them? Yet another invalid argument in your case for The Rock since Savage has been in many hardcore matches too and has won a vast majority of them. I could easily find you 5 matches in which The Rock wrestled in a hardcore environment and lost. As a matter of fact, I will do that:

Wrestlemania 15: He lost to Stone Cold in a No DQ match.
Backlash: In Your House: Lost to Stone Cold again this time in a No Hold Barred Match.
Fully Loaded: Lost to Triple H in a a Strap match.
I'm not sure when this happened, but it was an empty arena match in which he lost to Mankind.
SummerSlam 1998: Lost to Triple again this time in a ladder match.

And those are just a few matches which he lost, I could easily go and find more matches.

Rock lost?! OH NO! Who cares? He's still been in way more, and faced better guys than Savage did. Mankind, who made his career off of hardcore matches, beat Rocky. Oh my, that must be so terrible, losing to a hardcore legend! Then again, Rock also beat him, so it doesn't matter.

I never said he wasn't. He is, he just isn't as quick and agile as Randy Savage.

Not that big of a difference either.

Who cares if he can land shots on Andre, he's wrestling Savage here not Andre.

That was a typo, supposed to say Savage.

I never claimed Rocky had not stamina at all so don't misinterpret what I say. However, Savage wrestled in an era where men would regularly go on for 60 minutes a night for 7 days a week and not be tired at the end. I definitely think Savage has Rocky beat in the stamina department and would definitely have much more of it after this match.

Not fun when someone misinterprets what you're saying, I know. He does have MORE stamina than Rock, but after getting his ass handed to him in the first stage (which he would) the field would be totally level, actually it would be in Rock's favor. But let's not forget, Rock had the ability to go 60 minutes too. He put on one hell of an iron man match with Triple H, with some big time brutality throughout.

Then what experience does he really need here? He doesn't need to learn how to climb since he has done that many a times and he doesn't need to know what to expect when he gets hit by a ladder since he has been hit with other objects and as mentioned earlier, it's common sense that if you get hit by a ladder it will hurt, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that. So please tell me exactly what experience Savage needs to have in order to win this match?

Ladder matches are much more simple than you make them seem. Savage was a skillful wrestler and he knows that if you want to go up that ladder with no one stopping you then he needs to beat his opponent to the point they stay down long enough for him to climb the ladder and win. He would definitely have no problem doing that, they call him savage for a reason you know.

Like I said earlier, a chair does not equal a ladder. Think about it this way, you know a ladder hurts like hell, but you would not be ready to get hit by one. No matter how much pain you're expecting, you'll still be in shock after that shot, especially since you've never been hit by a ladder before. Sure, he could beat on Rock for as much as he wants, but the big flaw with that is the fact that I can't see him dishing out enough punishment to keep Rock down for long enough to climb that ladder. Not only would Rock take whatever Savage would throw at him, but he would dish it out too. Rock has showed his resiliency before. Against Austin at 'Mania 17, although he lost, it took what... 23 chair shots to keep him down? And that was after being blindsided by Mr. McMahon. Without anybody to blindside Rock, Austin couldn't have taken advantage, and neither could Savage.

You're just thinking of scenarios that would never happen because Savage just doesn't take those sorts of risks where they'll end up biting him in the ass at the end of the match. As a matter of fact, the veteran in Randy Savage would most likely catch The Rock in a lot more mistakes than you think and capitalize in each and every single one of them.

Yes, Savage has NEVER made a mistake, you're so right. In a flat out brawl like this one, Rock has the advantage. He won't make a mistake that will cost him the match, whereas while executing the elbow Savage COULD make a mistake or Rock COULD take advantage.

Now, you'll probably say "Savage doesn't make mistakes," but that's bullshit.

 

[SavageTaker]

You make it seem as if Savage has never made a mistake, he most certainly has. The Rock would give him a stiff amount of competition, he wouldn't be able to think through what's going on clearly, he would have to make a brash decision at some point. He wouldn't have the time to calculate what would work and what wouldn't.

I never said Savage doesn't make mistakes. We are all humans here, we all make mistakes. However, Savage was just the type of wrestler that very rarely made mistakes and was well versed in several different types of environments. Also, The Rock is not Dean Malenko or Chris Jericho, he doesn't have 1,000 or 1,004 moves in Jericho's case in his moveset. So don't think the Rock is suddenly going to pull out some game changing maneuver that Savage has never seen in his life. It's very doubtful The Rock would do that and I don't think it would get to a point where Savage is going to be confused and won't know what to do. He knew what do in order to defeat Bret Hart, Ric Flair, DDP and many others. I'm sure he would know what to do in order to defeat the Rock in any environment.

I've seen him hit it lower, or from a different angle, so the knees could work in certain scenarios. Savage could weaken him as much as he wants, but Rock can still roll out of the way. As a matter of fact, I was just reading a review of an old WWF show, and Savage was facing Ted DiBiase. He went up to the top rope and... MISSED the elbow. So that right there proves that it's possible for Rock to roll out of the way, doesn't it?

I guess the knee's could work in certain scenarios but if we step out of the kayfabe bubble for a minute then it would probably never work. Why? Because if you put your knees up when a wrestler is jumping off the top rope then they can get injured severely once they hit your knees which something wrestlers are supposed to avoid (injuring each other).

He knows it will hurt, but I don't he knows how bad it will hurt. It would be something totally new to his body, a total shock for his system. It would take him a bit to shake it off, no doubt. Well, of course he's been hit by chairs, but chairs are nowhere as bad as ladders. Totally different ball game in a ladder match.

Like I said earlier, I will still consider this argument invalid and I think you're grasping at straws here. Even I know if I get hit by a ladder it's going to hurt, a lot. I'm sure Savage, a man that is much more smarter than you and me when it comes to wrestling, will know it's going to hurt a lot and will prepare himself adequately for a shot from a ladder.

But let's just say for the sake of argument here that Savage is hit by a ladder and wasn't prepared for it. Let's say he now needs some time to recuperate. Guess what? Heel Savage was known for stepping out of the ring when he knew he might be in trouble or to escape his opponents wrath. I'm sure he could easily do that here, shake off the shot from the ladder and get back into this match with no problem.

Rock lost?! OH NO! Who cares? He's still been in way more, and faced better guys than Savage did. Mankind, who made his career off of hardcore matches, beat Rocky. Oh my, that must be so terrible, losing to a hardcore legend! Then again, Rock also beat him, so it doesn't matter.

The point wasn't that The Rock lost, the point was that he doesn't seem to have a very good record in winning hardcore matches where as Savage has actually won most of the matches he's been in that involved being in a hardcore environment when they were just singles matches with a hardcore gimmick.

And did you really claim The Rock has faced better guys than Savage? Really?

Savage faced some of the biggest wrestlers the western hemisphere has ever seen ranging from Hulk Hogan to Ric Flair to even Bruno Sammartino to Bret Hart and many more. So yeah, I don't think The Rock has faced has better wrestlers than Savage.

Not fun when someone misinterprets what you're saying, I know. He does have MORE stamina than Rock, but after getting his ass handed to him in the first stage (which he would) the field would be totally level, actually it would be in Rock's favor. But let's not forget, Rock had the ability to go 60 minutes too. He put on one hell of an iron man match with Triple H, with some big time brutality throughout.

What makes you think Savage would get his ass handed here? He's not some Brooklyn Brawler or any other jobber. He is a multiple time world champion and one of the biggest legends in not only WWE history, but in wrestling history. I can guarantee you that Savage is not going to get his handed at any point in any of his matches.

Like I said earlier, a chair does not equal a ladder. Think about it this way, you know a ladder hurts like hell, but you would not be ready to get hit by one. No matter how much pain you're expecting, you'll still be in shock after that shot, especially since you've never been hit by a ladder before. Sure, he could beat on Rock for as much as he wants, but the big flaw with that is the fact that I can't see him dishing out enough punishment to keep Rock down for long enough to climb that ladder. Not only would Rock take whatever Savage would throw at him, but he would dish it out too. Rock has showed his resiliency before. Against Austin at 'Mania 17, although he lost, it took what... 23 chair shots to keep him down? And that was after being blindsided by Mr. McMahon. Without anybody to blindside Rock, Austin couldn't have taken advantage, and neither could Savage.

Whoever said a chair equals a ladder? I merely pointed out the fact that Savage has been hit by other metal objects and does know they cause pain but like I mentioned already, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know a ladder is going to hurt a lot. That's why if Savage was to ever be struck by one and couldn't dodge it, he could easily slip out the ring, avoid Rocky if he came chasing after him and shake it off.

And you don't see Savage dishing out enough punishment to keep the Rock down? Really? You're talking about a man who had absolutely no problem crushing Ricky Steamboat's larynx (storyline wise) and was so wild he would attack or threaten anyone who dared glance at his valet, Miss. Elizabeth. I am more than confident in knowing Savage would beat the living hell out of The Rock with absolutely no remorse.

Yes, Savage has NEVER made a mistake, you're so right. In a flat out brawl like this one, Rock has the advantage. He won't make a mistake that will cost him the match, whereas while executing the elbow Savage COULD make a mistake or Rock COULD take advantage.

Now, you'll probably say "Savage doesn't make mistakes," but that's bullshit.

I never claimed Savage never made mistakes so stop putting words in my mouth. However, the chances of him making one, especially in a high profile match, are slim to none. He perfected his craft and took pride in knowing just about everything he did was executed to perfection. So can Savage make a mistake? Yes. Will it actually happen? Very doubtful.

 

[JGlass]

I'm backing The Macho Man in this one. Both of these guys are two of my all time favorites, but Macho Man may very well be the reason Rocky was able to shine. In addition to being one of the all time greatest in the ring, Randy Savage helped revolutionize the promo. He brought energy, passion, catchphrases, smack talk... he brought it all to the table. I'm not saying he was the first one to do it, but he helped perfect it.

It's funny, The Rock and Randy Savage are similar in many ways. Both very talented in the ring but primarily remembered for their personalities, both involved in the biggest feuds of their time, both played second fiddle to the number one star, Savage to Hogan and Rocky to Stone Cold, and despite being the second biggest stars in the company, both managed to live outside of the number one guy's shadow.

However, Randy Savage managed to hold the title belt at a time when A) the WWF Championship belt was wildly important and sought after and B) Hogan was wrestling. He was so popular that the WWF decided that it was a good idea to put the belt on the Macho Man.

Sure, The Rock held the belt during his time too, but that belt was around many different waists during the attitude era, including Mick Foley, Stone Cold, Triple H, Big Show, Kurt Angle, The Undertaker, Chris Jericho, Vince McMahon, and... Hulk Hogan. In the 80s it went from Hulk Hogan to Andre the Giant (kind of) to Randy Savage back to Hulk Hogan.

The stipulation doesn't favor either man in my opinion. None of the matches are that strange, and both men should be comfortable in each of these environments.

I see Savage winning the street fight, Rocky winning the steel cage, and then Savage winning the ladder match.

Vote Savage.

 

[The Crock]

I never said Savage doesn't make mistakes. We are all humans here, we all make mistakes. However, Savage was just the type of wrestler that very rarely made mistakes and was well versed in several different types of environments. Also, The Rock is not Dean Malenko or Chris Jericho, he doesn't have 1,000 or 1,004 moves in Jericho's case in his moveset. So don't think the Rock is suddenly going to pull out some game changing maneuver that Savage has never seen in his life. It's very doubtful The Rock would do that and I don't think it would get to a point where Savage is going to be confused and won't know what to do. He knew what do in order to defeat Bret Hart, Ric Flair, DDP and many others. I'm sure he would know what to do in order to defeat the Rock in any environment.

Then again, Rock isn't a 4 or 5 type of move guy either. When he needed to, he could expand his moveset and have plethora of different moves. He adjusted to each opponent and to each environment, much like you're saying Savage did. While I'm not denying that Savage could adjust, so would Rock. He wouldn't have the time, in any of these match types, to really think it through. He'd relentlessly be attacked.

I guess the knee's could work in certain scenarios but if we step out of the kayfabe bubble for a minute then it would probably never work. Why? Because if you put your knees up when a wrestler is jumping off the top rope then they can get injured severely once they hit your knees which something wrestlers are supposed to avoid (injuring each other).

Well yeah, but we're keeping this in the kayfabe bubble. If we were to go outside the kayfabe bubble then a lot of these arguments wouldn't make any sense.

Like I said earlier, I will still consider this argument invalid and I think you're grasping at straws here. Even I know if I get hit by a ladder it's going to hurt, a lot. I'm sure Savage, a man that is much more smarter than you and me when it comes to wrestling, will know it's going to hurt a lot and will prepare himself adequately for a shot from a ladder.

But let's just say for the sake of argument here that Savage is hit by a ladder and wasn't prepared for it. Let's say he now needs some time to recuperate. Guess what? Heel Savage was known for stepping out of the ring when he knew he might be in trouble or to escape his opponents wrath. I'm sure he could easily do that here, shake off the shot from the ladder and get back into this match with no problem.

Okay, so Savage leaves the ring but Rock follows. The Rock is tenacious, he won't give Savage that time to recover. You know, The Rock has some of those very tricks in his repertoire, he would more than likely be able to counteract them. It would take quite some time to recover from a ladder shot anyway, so Savage would definitely be feeling the affects for a while.

The point wasn't that The Rock lost, the point was that he doesn't seem to have a very good record in winning hardcore matches where as Savage has actually won most of the matches he's been in that involved being in a hardcore environment when they were just singles matches with a hardcore gimmick.

And did you really claim The Rock has faced better guys than Savage? Really?

Savage faced some of the biggest wrestlers the western hemisphere has ever seen ranging from Hulk Hogan to Ric Flair to even Bruno Sammartino to Bret Hart and many more. So yeah, I don't think The Rock has faced has better wrestlers than Savage.

Not better guys in general, but in a hardcore setting. Rock faced the likes of Stone Cold, Triple H, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Mankind, Big Show, and many more, now while that list isn't as impressive outright, in a hardcore setting it's more impressive than any list you could find for Savage.

What makes you think Savage would get his ass handed here? He's not some Brooklyn Brawler or any other jobber. He is a multiple time world champion and one of the biggest legends in not only WWE history, but in wrestling history. I can guarantee you that Savage is not going to get his handed at any point in any of his matches.

The match types favor Rocky. I just don't see Savage adjusting to how good Rock is in these types of matches to overcome that and win the match. I mean, I was probably exaggerating because he would put up a fight, but in the end I see The Rock with his hand raised.

Whoever said a chair equals a ladder? I merely pointed out the fact that Savage has been hit by other metal objects and does know they cause pain but like I mentioned already, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know a ladder is going to hurt a lot. That's why if Savage was to ever be struck by one and couldn't dodge it, he could easily slip out the ring, avoid Rocky if he came chasing after him and shake it off.

And you don't see Savage dishing out enough punishment to keep the Rock down? Really? You're talking about a man who had absolutely no problem crushing Ricky Steamboat's larynx (storyline wise) and was so wild he would attack or threaten anyone who dared glance at his valet, Miss. Elizabeth. I am more than confident in knowing Savage would beat the living hell out of The Rock with absolutely no remorse.

The Rock wouldn't have any remorse either. Remember, this is the guy who hired Rikishi to run Stone Cold Steve Austin over with a car. He didn't just want to injure him, he wanted to end his career, he tried to kill him! Savage could pull out all he has, but Rock can withstand that. He has shown on multiple occasions that he can take copious amounts of punishment and still pull out a win.

I never claimed Savage never made mistakes so stop putting words in my mouth. However, the chances of him making one, especially in a high profile match, are slim to none. He perfected his craft and took pride in knowing just about everything he did was executed to perfection. So can Savage make a mistake? Yes. Will it actually happen? Very doubtful.

Sure, he was all about excellence but you said it yourself... Even if it is "very doubtful" that Savage would make a mistake, Rock could still capitalize on any little minor thing. Hell, he could FORCE a mistake out of Savage.

 

[SavageTaker]

Then again, Rock isn't a 4 or 5 type of move guy either. When he needed to, he could expand his moveset and have plethora of different moves. He adjusted to each opponent and to each environment, much like you're saying Savage did. While I'm not denying that Savage could adjust, so would Rock. He wouldn't have the time, in any of these match types, to really think it through. He'd relentlessly be attacked.

It really doesn't matter if he would be relentlessly be attacked because Savage was quick on his feet. He could think of things to do, even if he was injured, to still pull out wins or at least get the upperhand on his opponents. So let me present you exhibit A:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z976fLWo3lc [/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXDcus9CrIA&feature=related [/youtube]

If you watched that match then you'll see that Savage doesn't need a lot of time to analyze the situation he is in. Like I mentioned, he is quick on his feet so if somehow The Rock could dominate in this match, Savage could and would quickly reverse any move The Rock throws at him and get the win just like he did to Bret Hart in that match.

Another point I would like to bring, which Jesse Ventura mentioned in that match, Savage is a resilient wrestler. He got injured about halfway through the match and yet he continued. You may try to twist that into a negative thing, but I see it more as a positive that he was still able to get the win against one of the best ever even when he had an injured ankle. So I don't see how The Rock could defeat a healthy, not injured Randy Savage.

Okay, so Savage leaves the ring but Rock follows. The Rock is tenacious, he won't give Savage that time to recover. You know, The Rock has some of those very tricks in his repertoire, he would more than likely be able to counteract them. It would take quite some time to recover from a ladder shot anyway, so Savage would definitely be feeling the affects for a while.

Savage as a heel doesn't just leave the ring and run away. No sir. You seem to have forgotten about Miss. Elizabeth here. She would be a vital part in any match where Savage needed to recuperate. You see, Savage doesn't just leave the ring, he also hides behind his valet who accompanied him in every match. Now you tell me, would The Rock be willing to attack the beautiful Miss. Elizabeth to get Mr. Savage?

Not better guys in general, but in a hardcore setting. Rock faced the likes of Stone Cold, Triple H, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Mankind, Big Show, and many more, now while that list isn't as impressive outright, in a hardcore setting it's more impressive than any list you could find for Savage.

But Savage was able to beat better wrestlers overall, not just wrestlers that had one or a few specialties. Savage beat wrestlers that were brawlers, high flyers, submission specialists, e.t.c. So I don't see how he would lose in a hardcore environment since every weapon is just as available to him as they are to The Rock. It's not like Savage wouldn't know what to do with a chair or a ladder. People seem to forget Randy could be a crazy, wild egomaniac at times and that definitely works to his advantage here. He wouldn't just get a chair and hit you with it, he would try to injure you with it just because. If you dared even glance at his valet, Elizabeth, he wouldn’t be afraid to beat the crap out of you.

The match types favor Rocky. I just don't see Savage adjusting to how good Rock is in these types of matches to overcome that and win the match. I mean, I was probably exaggerating because he would put up a fight, but in the end I see The Rock with his hand raised.

Exactly how do the match types favor Rocky? They've both fought in steel cage matches and hardcore type matches and a ladder match isn't as complex as some would like to think. I mean, if this was an inferno match or some sort of deathmatch that Rocky has been in and won then I might agree with you, but it's not so it doesn't matter.

The Rock wouldn't have any remorse either. Remember, this is the guy who hired Rikishi to run Stone Cold Steve Austin over with a car. He didn't just want to injure him, he wanted to end his career, he tried to kill him! Savage could pull out all he has, but Rock can withstand that. He has shown on multiple occasions that he can take copious amounts of punishment and still pull out a win.

You bring up an excellent point except for one thing, Rocky wasn't man enough to get into that car and do the deed himself. He had to hire someone to do his dirty work because of whatever reason that we can only speculate about. So no, we can't just say the Rock wouldn't have any remorse either because he hasn't done anything himself to be remorseful about. Savage on the other hand had the guts and cohones, if you will, to do his own dirty work and not feel remorseful about it.

Sure, he was all about excellence but you said it yourself... Even if it is "very doubtful" that Savage would make a mistake, Rock could still capitalize on any little minor thing. Hell, he could FORCE a mistake out of Savage.

When has The Rock ever been known to do that? Please show me evidence of The Rock ever being the type of wrestler that would catch someone in a minor thing as you put it and capitalize on it for the rest of the match or until it got him the win.

 

[The Crock]

It really doesn't matter if he would be relentlessly be attacked because Savage was quick on his feet. He could think of things to do, even if he was injured, to still pull out wins or at least get the upperhand on his opponents. So let me present you exhibit A:

[youtube]Z976fLWo3lc [/youtube]

[youtube]=mXDcus9CrIA&feature=related [/youtube]

If you watched that match then you'll see that Savage doesn't need a lot of time to analyze the situation he is in. Like I mentioned, he is quick on his feet so if somehow The Rock could dominate in this match, Savage could and would quickly reverse any move The Rock throws at him and get the win just like he did to Bret Hart in that match.

Another point I would like to bring, which Jesse Ventura mentioned in that match, Savage is a resilient wrestler. He got injured about halfway through the match and yet he continued. You may try to twist that into a negative thing, but I see it more as a positive that he was still able to get the win against one of the best ever even when he had an injured ankle. So I don't see how The Rock could defeat a healthy, not injured Randy Savage.

The fact that Rock has defeated Austin, who is in the top three guys all time (depending on how you put Hogan, HBK, Austin) leads me to believe that he could do the same to Savage. It doesn't matter if Savage was at the peak of his health, Rocky could still pull out a win. Rock fought injured before, he fought off numerous interferences, and he still won. He's proven himself to be just as resilient as Randy Savage.

Savage as a heel doesn't just leave the ring and run away. No sir. You seem to have forgotten about Miss. Elizabeth here. She would be a vital part in any match where Savage needed to recuperate. You see, Savage doesn't just leave the ring, he also hides behind his valet who accompanied him in every match. Now you tell me, would The Rock be willing to attack the beautiful Miss. Elizabeth to get Mr. Savage?

...And? You seem to be forgetting that The Rock doesn't give a shit about who he has to hit to get to his opponent. Shall I remind you of how Rocky hit the Rock Bottom on Stephanie McMahon? Because that is certainly relevant here. He wouldn't think twice about destroying Miss Elizabeth. As a matter of fact, he would enjoy it. He would try to actually hurt her, had Angle not saved Stephanie McMahon, she would have gotten the People's Elbow to go along with her Rock Bottom.

But Savage was able to beat better wrestlers overall, not just wrestlers that had one or a few specialties. Savage beat wrestlers that were brawlers, high flyers, submission specialists, e.t.c. So I don't see how he would lose in a hardcore environment since every weapon is just as available to him as they are to The Rock. It's not like Savage wouldn't know what to do with a chair or a ladder. People seem to forget Randy could be a crazy, wild egomaniac at times and that definitely works to his advantage here. He wouldn't just get a chair and hit you with it, he would try to injure you with it just because. If you dared even glance at his valet, Elizabeth, he wouldn’t be afraid to beat the crap out of you.

Yes, because Rock only beat specialized wrestlers. Ha. Rock beat some of the most versatile competition ever, Jericho, Angle, Undertaker, Triple H, Kane, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Hulk Hogan, Big Show, Booker T, Chris Benoit, Mick Foley, the list goes on and on. So there's no reason he wouldn't be just as well versed, if not better, than Savage.

That being said, Rock has been out there with the two most insane guys I can think of, Stone Cold and Mankind. He'd be perfectly fine with whatever "onslaught" Randy Savage could bring to the table.

Exactly how do the match types favor Rocky? They've both fought in steel cage matches and hardcore type matches and a ladder match isn't as complex as some would like to think. I mean, if this was an inferno match or some sort of deathmatch that Rocky has been in and won then I might agree with you, but it's not so it doesn't matter.

Think about this, even though you dismiss the ladder match experience, Rock has beaten Mankind in a ladder match for the title, he beat Mankind and Ken Shamrock in a cage match to become number one contender, won a cage match against Triple H... He's been VERY successful in these types of matches. He rarely loses and he's faced competition on par with Savage in a lot of them.

You bring up an excellent point except for one thing, Rocky wasn't man enough to get into that car and do the deed himself. He had to hire someone to do his dirty work because of whatever reason that we can only speculate about. So no, we can't just say the Rock wouldn't have any remorse either because he hasn't done anything himself to be remorseful about. Savage on the other hand had the guts and cohones, if you will, to do his own dirty work and not feel remorseful about it.

Rock was smart enough to let someone else do it for him, while he was in his pursuit of the title. It's a killer instinct, he looks out for himself. He'd be able to come up with some kind of a plan in advance to neutralize Savage. He had the balls to do it, but he had the brains to have someone else do it.

When has The Rock ever been known to do that? Please show me evidence of The Rock ever being the type of wrestler that would catch someone in a minor thing as you put it and capitalize on it for the rest of the match or until it got him the win.

Right now something a bit unorthodox comes to mind, but I vaguely remember him threatening Stephanie McMahon multiple times in a match once and using it to distract Triple H I believe and picking up the win. Another one would be when he worked Benoit's knees with the Sharpshooter after injuring his knees early. It's little things like that that make Rocky the better choice.

 

[SavageTaker]

The fact that Rock has defeated Austin, who is in the top three guys all time (depending on how you put Hogan, HBK, Austin) leads me to believe that he could do the same to Savage. It doesn't matter if Savage was at the peak of his health, Rocky could still pull out a win. Rock fought injured before, he fought off numerous interferences, and he still won. He's proven himself to be just as resilient as Randy Savage.

So what if The Rock has defeated Stone Cold? Randy Savage managed to defeat (aside from the ones I've already mentioned) guys like Hulk Hogan and The Ultimate Warrior during their primes in some MSG shows. So yet again, you're grasping as straws because I can easily bring up bigger names Randy has faced AND defeated during their primes yet you decided to completely ignore/counter my argument about Randy Savage being quick on his feet and would not have any problem reanalyzing the match or situation he is in if something game changing were to happen.

Also, Rocky is nowhere near as resilient as Randy Savage. Randy fought in and won the first ever World War 3 match. He had to be the last man standing out of 60 men and was capable of doing so with absolutely no problem. Aside from that he too has had to deal with “injuries” during matches and interferences. So both men are resilient, I'm not denying that, but Savage has more resiliency.

...And? You seem to be forgetting that The Rock doesn't give a shit about who he has to hit to get to his opponent. Shall I remind you of how Rocky hit the Rock Bottom on Stephanie McMahon? Because that is certainly relevant here. He wouldn't think twice about destroying Miss Elizabeth. As a matter of fact, he would enjoy it. He would try to actually hurt her, had Angle not saved Stephanie McMahon, she would have gotten the People's Elbow to go along with her Rock Bottom.

You saw why The Rock attacked Stephanie? Right? Because she decided to get right up in his face and tried to slap him. There is a huge difference between Steph and Elizabeth and that's the fact that Elizabeth didn't get herself physically involved in matches like that. So what reason would Rocky have to attack an innocent Elizabeth who has done absolutely nothing wrong? If you can show me evidence that The Rock would attack an innocent woman who didn't involve herself in matches like Stephanie did then I will change my stance on this matter. But for the time remaining, no, Rocky would not attack Elizabeth just because Randy would use her as a shield.

Yes, because Rock only beat specialized wrestlers. Ha. Rock beat some of the most versatile competition ever, Jericho, Angle, Undertaker, Triple H, Kane, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Hulk Hogan, Big Show, Booker T, Chris Benoit, Mick Foley, the list goes on and on. So there's no reason he wouldn't be just as well versed, if not better, than Savage.

Did I ever claim The Rock only beat specialized wrestler? I didn't think so. And Randy Savage not only beat some of the most versatile wrestlers of his time too but he also beat wrestlers that were overall better than the ones in Rocky's such as Ricky Steamboat, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Bret Hart, Sting, Chris Benoit, Jushin Liger and many more.

That being said, Rock has been out there with the two most insane guys I can think of, Stone Cold and Mankind. He'd be perfectly fine with whatever "onslaught" Randy Savage could bring to the table.

I'm sure the “crazy” or “insane” wrestlers Randy has fought and defeated are much more crazier than Stone Cold and Mankind. Some of them include Jake Roberts, George Steele, Meng, Doink the Clown and there many more as well.

Think about this, even though you dismiss the ladder match experience, Rock has beaten Mankind in a ladder match for the title, he beat Mankind and Ken Shamrock in a cage match to become number one contender, won a cage match against Triple H... He's been VERY successful in these types of matches. He rarely loses and he's faced competition on par with Savage in a lot of them.

I never claimed he wasn't successful in those type of matches, but so was Savage when it came to Steel Cage matches. So the fact that both were successful in cage matches is something I can't argue, however I can argue that the much faster and agile wrestler would win the match. He has been able to keep wrestlers better than the Rock down long enough so I don't see why he wouldn't do the same here and climb out as fast as possible.


And in ladder matches you really don't need that much experience to begin with and it's not like The Rock is some ladder match expert so this match can go to either one of them. I personally think it would go to Randy Savage because although he hasn't been in a ladder match that I know of, it's not a complex type of match. He knows he needs to keep his opponents down long enough and would do so here. He also doesn't have the extra body weight that The Rock has to slow him down so that is also an advantage for him in the speed factor.

Rock was smart enough to let someone else do it for him, while he was in his pursuit of the title. It's a killer instinct, he looks out for himself. He'd be able to come up with some kind of a plan in advance to neutralize Savage. He had the balls to do it, but he had the brains to have someone else do it.

Or he wasn't man enough to do his own dirty work. While The Rock wasn't man enough to take out a man himself, Savage wasn't afraid of any consequences. He did what he had to do in order to beat a man and would do the same to Rocky, even if meant taking him out of action.

Right now something a bit unorthodox comes to mind, but I vaguely remember him threatening Stephanie McMahon multiple times in a match once and using it to distract Triple H I believe and picking up the win. Another one would be when he worked Benoit's knees with the Sharpshooter after injuring his knees early. It's little things like that that make Rocky the better choice.

How exactly is that capitalizing on a mistake his opponent made? Yet again you fail to address the question with something completely unrelated to what I'm talking about.

Those things, such as working on a certain body part like the knee are called having psychology in a match, something Savage had as much of if not more than The Rock.

 

[UltimateHitman]

I'm going with Savage, and I'll keep the reasoning short and to the point.

What is Savage remembered for? His matches. Yes, his promos and mic skills were phenomenal, too, but it goes matches/awesome wrestling ability first, promos second.

Rocky? Mic work. That's his bigger claim to fame. Running his mouth. Yeah, he had a "5 knuckle shuffle move" (People's elbow) and he might snag ONE fall w/a Rock Bottom (maybe) but he's more noted for his mouth than his in-ring ability.

Logically, the rub goes to Macho Man. It's the only way to go.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

Another incredibly tough choice in this match, both Savage and Rock are very well matched.

Looking at the type of matches in this 3 stages of hell contest, I am leaning towards The Rock getting the win in the street fight. I have not seen Savage in many of these types of contests and one of my biggest memories of The Rock is his brutal "I Quit" match against Mankind in which is went over the top and absolutely decimated Foley with the steel chair. I see no reason why he would not be able to do the same to Savage, especially in fall 1, where both men would be fresh.

Match 2 in the cage is alot closer. I am going to give this fall to Savage as I do not think The Rock would be able to beat him in 2 falls, and The Macho Man deserves better than a 2-0 defeat. This would again be a really tough match, but after a Macho Elbow, Savage would be able to escape the cage, although Rock managed to get to his feet and neaaaaaarly pull Savage down.

Match 3. The decider. The Ladder Match. Both men are fairly inexperienced in this type of match, although The Rock had a classic against Triple H back in 1998. Conditioning would not come into play, as both men are tremendous athletes. This would be another back and forth contest, with Savage managing to nail an elbow from the ladder on The Rock, and taking a Rock Bottom from the great one but both men are still alive and kicking at the end, with the 2 of them battling it on on the ladder. A Rock Bottom from the ladder later, and Savage is done.

Rock recovers to re-climb the ladder and take the 3rd fall. 2-1 win for The Rock

 

[SavageTaker]

Looking at the type of matches in this 3 stages of hell contest, I am leaning towards The Rock getting the win in the street fight. I have not seen Savage in many of these types of contests and one of my biggest memories of The Rock is his brutal "I Quit" match against Mankind in which is went over the top and absolutely decimated Foley with the steel chair. I see no reason why he would not be able to do the same to Savage, especially in fall 1, where both men would be fresh.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D62vDTOMhwU [/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-2d8I7ByVg [/youtube]

In that match alone Savage, who was already past his prime, displayed excellent psychology throughout the entire match by capitalizing on the injured ribs of DDP and he would do the same to The Rock if he was to injure him somehow. Aside from showing us excellent psychology, he also showed how ruthless he could be by taking out 4 referees, almost took out one camera man, and nearly attacked Kimberly until Nick Patrick stopped him. He truly doesn't care who you are as long as he gets what he wants; which is having his hand raised in victory at the end of a match. Furthermore, he also showed everyone he can get just as dirty and the dirtiest player in the game by low blowing DDP and throwing some type of unknown powder in his face. I'm sure that if given the opportunity, Savage could and would use those same tactics to get the win here.

Match 3. The decider. The Ladder Match. Both men are fairly inexperienced in this type of match, although The Rock had a classic against Triple H back in 1998. Conditioning would not come into play, as both men are tremendous athletes. This would be another back and forth contest, with Savage managing to nail an elbow from the ladder on The Rock, and taking a Rock Bottom from the great one but both men are still alive and kicking at the end, with the 2 of them battling it on on the ladder. A Rock Bottom from the ladder later, and Savage is done.

Rock recovers to re-climb the ladder and take the 3rd fall. 2-1 win for The Rock

So...why would The Rock win a ladder match? You failed at actually giving a reason as to why Rocky would win. Simply put, Savage could easily win here. Like I've mentioned earlier many times, ladder matches are not as complex as some make them out to be and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know it's going to hurt if you're hit by a ladder. Additionally, Savage is the more quicker and agile athlete of the two so he would have no problem climbing the ladder as fast as possible or if he sees The Rock climbing running to him to knock him down. I could definitely see Savage winning this match just as much, if not more, as the Rocky could.

 

[The Crock]

So what if The Rock has defeated Stone Cold? Randy Savage managed to defeat (aside from the ones I've already mentioned) guys like Hulk Hogan and The Ultimate Warrior during their primes in some MSG shows. So yet again, you're grasping as straws because I can easily bring up bigger names Randy has faced AND defeated during their primes yet you decided to completely ignore/counter my argument about Randy Savage being quick on his feet and would not have any problem reanalyzing the match or situation he is in if something game changing were to happen.

Also, Rocky is nowhere near as resilient as Randy Savage. Randy fought in and won the first ever World War 3 match. He had to be the last man standing out of 60 men and was capable of doing so with absolutely no problem. Aside from that he too has had to deal with “injuries” during matches and interferences. So both men are resilient, I'm not denying that, but Savage has more resiliency.

You mean the match he wouldn't have won if not for The Giant? You mean THAT World War 3? On top of that, there were I'd say about 40 jobbers in that match, so it doesn't make the feat all that impressive either. Savage survived the attacks of people like the almighty Dave Sullivan, The Yeti, Super Assassins 1 and 2, Bobby Walker, Buddy Lee Walker, Scott and Steve Armstrong, Big Train Bart, Cobra (Fake Sting), Bunkhouse Buck, Joey Maggs, Maxx Muscle, Scott Norton, Sgt. Craig Pittman, Fidel Sierra, Dick Slater, Mark Starr, Pez Whatley, and James Earl Wright. That right there is 21 people and I could have gone on. I don't see why it is such a feat that he destroyed some simple jobbers.

What about The Rock's (match of the year winning) "I Quit" Match against Mankind? How about that for resilience? Low blows, Mandible Claws, weapons, you name it, Rocky survived it.

You saw why The Rock attacked Stephanie? Right? Because she decided to get right up in his face and tried to slap him. There is a huge difference between Steph and Elizabeth and that's the fact that Elizabeth didn't get herself physically involved in matches like that. So what reason would Rocky have to attack an innocent Elizabeth who has done absolutely nothing wrong? If you can show me evidence that The Rock would attack an innocent woman who didn't involve herself in matches like Stephanie did then I will change my stance on this matter. But for the time remaining, no, Rocky would not attack Elizabeth just because Randy would use her as a shield.

Yes, because that's the only time Rock has ever hit a woman.

[YOUTUBE]mNDRTwhRptk[/YOUTUBE]

Tries to get her multiple times in that match.

[YOUTUBE]BtvNIbDdkMM[/YOUTUBE]

There's that one.

[YOUTUBE]QxrhOanPfmI[/YOUTUBE]

Rock hits Chyna.

3 more times for you. In the first one, he didn't have to hit Stephanie, but he wanted to pull her in and impose his will on her. Same scenario with Chyna. She got in his grill, but he still hit her. You seem to be forgetting that Rocky made his millions during the Attitude Era, this kind of stuff was the norm.

Did I ever claim The Rock only beat specialized wrestler? I didn't think so. And Randy Savage not only beat some of the most versatile wrestlers of his time too but he also beat wrestlers that were overall better than the ones in Rocky's such as Ricky Steamboat, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Bret Hart, Sting, Chris Benoit, Jushin Liger and many more.


I'm sure the “crazy” or “insane” wrestlers Randy has fought and defeated are much more crazier than Stone Cold and Mankind. Some of them include Jake Roberts, George Steele, Meng, Doink the Clown and there many more as well.

Rock beat some of the guys on that list, and then in his own right beat some legends of this business as well. Hogan, Benoit, Austin, 'Taker, Triple H, the list goes on. Sure, Savage went against guys like Flair, Hart, Sting, and Steamboat that Rocky never faced, but who's to say he would have had as much success as Rock did against the people Rock had to face?

For one, none were crazier than Mankind. Do you remember his old boiler room promos and the bumps that guy took? Yeah, he was bat shit insane. Randy's list isn't as impressive as Rocky's, Doink and Meng, again, you're bringing up JOBBERS.

I never claimed he wasn't successful in those type of matches, but so was Savage when it came to Steel Cage matches. So the fact that both were successful in cage matches is something I can't argue, however I can argue that the much faster and agile wrestler would win the match. He has been able to keep wrestlers better than the Rock down long enough so I don't see why he wouldn't do the same here and climb out as fast as possible.


And in ladder matches you really don't need that much experience to begin with and it's not like The Rock is some ladder match expert so this match can go to either one of them. I personally think it would go to Randy Savage because although he hasn't been in a ladder match that I know of, it's not a complex type of match. He knows he needs to keep his opponents down long enough and would do so here. He also doesn't have the extra body weight that The Rock has to slow him down so that is also an advantage for him in the speed factor.

The faster and more agile wrestler doesn't necessarily have to be at an advantage. What about how Yokozuna beat Bret Hart in a cage match? He's definitely not faster or more agile than Bret Hart. The winner of the cage match would be the man who could inflict more pain on there opponent and I personally believe Rock could inflict more pain on Randy.

Again, size doesn't matter in a ladder match. Edge is a big guy, 6'5", yet he's had success in TLC/Ladder matches. 'Taker won a TLC match (basically the same concept) against Jeff Hardy, a speedy little goon. The extra body weight won't hurt Rock, that's just more weight to put behind his strikes.

Or he wasn't man enough to do his own dirty work. While The Rock wasn't man enough to take out a man himself, Savage wasn't afraid of any consequences. He did what he had to do in order to beat a man and would do the same to Rocky, even if meant taking him out of action.

No, that's called intelligence. Just because Savage would be reckless and stupid enough to do that doesn't mean Rocky has to be. The fact that he'd be willing to do anything and not fear the consequences would hurt him, it would make it easier for him to make a mistake. He'd be more reckless and more willing to do high risk maneuvers, not always a smart thing.

How exactly is that capitalizing on a mistake his opponent made? Yet again you fail to address the question with something completely unrelated to what I'm talking about.

Those things, such as working on a certain body part like the knee are called having psychology in a match, something Savage had as much of if not more than The Rock.

I remember the specific scenario, cannot find a video though. Benoit got reckless and missed a move injuring his knee. For the rest of that match, Rock picked him apart. If that doesn't count as capitalizing, then you're just being unreasonable. The psychology is wrapped in with that.

 

[SavageTaker]

You mean the match he wouldn't have won if not for The Giant? You mean THAT World War 3?

He still won, didn't he?

On top of that, there were I'd say about 40 jobbers in that match, so it doesn't make the feat all that impressive either. Savage survived the attacks of people like the almighty Dave Sullivan, The Yeti, Super Assassins 1 and 2, Bobby Walker, Buddy Lee Walker, Scott and Steve Armstrong, Big Train Bart, Cobra (Fake Sting), Bunkhouse Buck, Joey Maggs, Maxx Muscle, Scott Norton, Sgt. Craig Pittman, Fidel Sierra, Dick Slater, Mark Starr, Pez Whatley, and James Earl Wright. That right there is 21 people and I could have gone on. I don't see why it is such a feat that he destroyed some simple jobbers.

I never claimed it was hard to defeat some jobbers (which most of the people in the list weren't, I'll get to that later though), however when it's a whole bunch of them I'm sure it's a tough thing to accomplish. Also, there were some pretty big names in there too like Hogan, Flair, Sting, DDP and many others that weren't such big names.

What about The Rock's (match of the year winning) "I Quit" Match against Mankind? How about that for resilience? Low blows, Mandible Claws, weapons, you name it, Rocky survived it.

I think you're misinterpreting things yet again. I never claimed Rocky didn't have any resiliency, which you seem to think I said. I did however say, that while both men are very resilient, I think (as in my opinion) that Savage was the more resilient of the two. So we can keep debating that, but at the end I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this particular point.

Yes, because that's the only time Rock has ever hit a woman.

Never said it wasn't.

[YOUTUBE]mNDRTwhRptk[/YOUTUBE]

Tries to get her multiple times in that match.

[YOUTUBE]BtvNIbDdkMM[/YOUTUBE]

There's that one.

[YOUTUBE]QxrhOanPfmI[/YOUTUBE]

Rock hits Chyna.

3 more times for you. In the first one, he didn't have to hit Stephanie, but he wanted to pull her in and impose his will on her. Same scenario with Chyna. She got in his grill, but he still hit her. You seem to be forgetting that Rocky made his millions during the Attitude Era, this kind of stuff was the norm.

I personally still don't see him hitting Elizabeth. Just because of the fact that she was never a wrestler or intervened in the ways that Stephanie did. And Chyna...she's just something else.

Rock beat some of the guys on that list, and then in his own right beat some legends of this business as well. Hogan, Benoit, Austin, 'Taker, Triple H, the list goes on.

I'll give you all of them except Hogan just because he was by that time way past his prime. But other than him, I still think the names that Savage faced were much bigger. They were all, if not most, better wrestlers and much more accomplished than the guys Rocky faced during his era.

Sure, Savage went against guys like Flair, Hart, Sting, and Steamboat that Rocky never faced, but who's to say he would have had as much success as Rock did against the people Rock had to face?

Unfortunately we can't say how much success Randy could have had since he never faced the guys Rocky had to face, but the same could go for The Rock. Can we claim that he would be able to defeat guys like Ultimate Warrior, Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair during their respective primes? The world will never know.

For one, none were crazier than Mankind. Do you remember his old boiler room promos and the bumps that guy took? Yeah, he was bat shit insane. Randy's list isn't as impressive as Rocky's, Doink and Meng, again, you're bringing up JOBBERS.

I'll admit it, I was exaggerating when I said they were crazier than Mankind himself, but they were still pretty damn crazy and were definitely not jobbers. Jobbers are meant to lose matches and make their opponents look good while doing so. So by that definition, neither man was a jobber because although they had their fair amount of losses, they still won plenty of matches. The best example of a jobber is the Brooklyn Brawler. That's a true jobber.

The faster and more agile wrestler doesn't necessarily have to be at an advantage. What about how Yokozuna beat Bret Hart in a cage match? He's definitely not faster or more agile than Bret Hart. The winner of the cage match would be the man who could inflict more pain on there opponent and I personally believe Rock could inflict more pain on Randy.

You're right, it doesn't have to be an advantage but it can be. So I'm going with the latter since there isn't a huge weight difference between the two like there was with Hart and and Yoko. But like you said, if we go by your way of winning a cage match, the man that deals the more damage will probably be the winner at the end. So yet again, it's going to be something we'll just have to agree to disagree on since I personally think Savage would inflict more pain since he's more relentless and has more stamina so he can go on longer.

No, that's called intelligence. Just because Savage would be reckless and stupid enough to do that doesn't mean Rocky has to be. The fact that he'd be willing to do anything and not fear the consequences would hurt him, it would make it easier for him to make a mistake. He'd be more reckless and more willing to do high risk maneuvers, not always a smart thing.

Sorry to break the news to you but Savage wasn't stupid nor reckless. I think you misunderstood what I meant by consequences which would be something like getting stripped of a title. So I don't see how the consequences would hurt him and make him do a mistake, something we already went over. Also, how does him facing the consequences make him do more high risk maneuvers? He's not reckless nor stupid so I don't see what makes you think he would put himself at a position where he knows he could be in trouble.

I remember the specific scenario, cannot find a video though. Benoit got reckless and missed a move injuring his knee. For the rest of that match, Rock picked him apart. If that doesn't count as capitalizing, then you're just being unreasonable. The psychology is wrapped in with that.

So Benoit got reckless and injured himself, two things Savage just doesn't do, and The Rock capitalized on Benoit's own stupidity. So since Savage and Benoit are two completely different type of wrestlers, tell me again how The Rock would capitalize on Savage's mistakes when he very rarely made any. He was known for perfecting his craft and paying a lot of attention to every little detail in a match, so mistakes happening were very unlikely.

 

[El Rev sXe]

Savage wins this one.
1st fall, Street fight: I have to give it to Rocky. I think everyone has already metioned it, but it is important the "I quit" match against Mankind. This matche showed how vicious can be The Rock.

2nd fall, Cage match: El Macho man has this one. I don't know why, but I can totally see Savage knocking Rocky from the top of the cage, and instead of escaping the cage, he thorws an elbow from the top of it, that way ending the match with the 1,2,3.

3rd fall, Ladder match: this is where it is harder. However, I have to give it to Randy Savage. Not sure why, I'm basing in the fact that Rocky has lost the only ladder match (I remember), I don't remember Savage being part of a ladder match, however, he is almost a flyer wrestler, something that benefits in a ladder match. I can see again Savage doing his elbow from the top of the ladder this way putting down Rocky and being able to climb the ladder and grab the title.

 

[ThUnDeRpHoEnIx]

He still won, didn't he?

So basically what your saying is it doesnt matter if people interefered?So in a hypothetical situation when Zach Ryder versed Sheamus in that 11 second match for the WWE title,that if Randy Orton or Cena came down and beat the shit out of Sheamus and Zach Ryder pinned him and became the new WWE Champion,it doesnt matter how he won it just that he won it?