Glass Ass: The OFFICIAL JGlass Thread
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Thriller Ant
Beep Bop Boop
What he said
Poor Hannibal, defeated by his own pride and the fact that while the Romans were probably arrogant enough to eat their own semen and think it tastes nice they weren't ashamed to steal other peoples ideas and learn from them, we call that adapting now.
If your teacher wants to talk about overated historical losers then the name 'Atilla the Hun' springs to mind. Although I think betrayal did play a part in his major losses.
Just rode my bike for the first time in at least two years. Went a whole 3.6 miles, because I might as well be Lance Armstrong, or that one bike rider that never used any PEDs. Needless to say, I am exhausted. I think I have a bit of work to do if I want to get back in shape. That doesn't sound like fun, but I might as well do it now before I have to work 40+ hours a week.
ÐаÑбоÑа
doesn't know REAL wrestling...
31st July
Hannibal defeated by his own pride? Hmmm.
I think he failed to win the war due to the strength of the Roman alliance system in Italy and the vast amounts of resources and manpower it supplied them. Once victories like Cannae failed to completely break that system and Quintus Fabius Maximus initiated the Fabian strategy of shadowing Hannibal but not fighting him, victory was take from his grasp.
However, you are quite right about the Roman ability to integrate, adapt and expand upon the ideas of others being the reason why the Romans won the war. Scipio Africanus took on a lot of the proactive, manipulative style of leadership and tactics that Hannibal had shown - the Battle of Illipa is a great example of that manipulation.
The halting of Atilla's advance into Gaul was more to do with the alliance that Aetius was able to cobble together - Romans, Franks, Goths etc - while his death came about basically because he enjoyed the drink too much and ended up drowning in his own blood during the consummation of the last of his marriages.
Барбоса;4444673 said:
Also, the Mongols invaded Russia in winter successfully. Seriously, if you ever go back in time, don't fuck with Subotai. Probably the greatest military commander in history. And by probably, I mean good luck trying to find someone more who had more successes than him.
Supposedly there were plans for the Mongols to exploit the divide between the Holy Roman Empire and the papacy. They probably would have been successful, given that nobody else managed to put a stop to them (until Kublai, but he's a generation or two removed from the ones that built his empire). But that falls into speculative fiction for obvious reasons.
Барбоса;4445553 said:
Didnt he have multiple opportunities to sack Rome but instead kept demanding their surrender? Which in turn prolonged the war long enough for the Romans to adapt and survive?
I always thought of him as a glorified raider who when he was finally tested was sent packing with his tail between his legs.
justinsayne
Cody Rhodes is an excellant
Mass Effect 1 is now on my PS3, I can start the whole saga from the beginning now, YAY & such!
I also got PS All star Battle Royle, so that should be fun too
I also got PS All star Battle Royle, so that should be fun too
ÐаÑбоÑа
doesn't know REAL wrestling...
Actually, there is a rather amusing anecdote about the Mongol interaction with the Russian Princes. Apparently the latter surrendered to the Mongols before they were even invaded.
Gutless or sensible? Probably both.
Subutai is definitely up there in terms of the world's greatest cavalry commanders, probably alongside the likes of Khalid b. al-Walid, but amongst the greatest ever? I have my doubts.
There are many ideas about what the Mongols planned to do in Europe. I have read about them exploiting the weakness of the Holy Roman Empire but I have also heard of attempts to convert them to Christianity.
What was more likely to happen, had the Mongol commanders not bee distracted by the death of the Khan, is that the Mongols likely would have established a full time base on the grasslands of the Alfold of Hungary and then issued demands for surrender to all and sundry and when those surrenders did not come, they would have gone on the warpath again into central and eventually western Europe as there was no one able to stop them.
There is some truth to the idea that Hannibal's failure to force a decision in the war contributed to giving Rome time to make good on their manpower resources. However, I tend to ask "what more could Hannibal have really done?" Between 218 and 216, he inflicted three defeats on the Romans - Trebia, Lake Trasimene and Cannae - that cost them up to 120,000 men (and that does not even take into account the other skirmishes in Italy and the victories of Hannibal's brothers in Spain). If a pre-industrial state was not going to capitulate after such casualties, I tend to think that there was nothing more Hannibal could have done.
However, you would not be alone in thinking that Hannibal 'blew it.' There is a very famous quotation from one of Hannibal's commanders, Maharbal - ""Hannibal, you know how to gain a victory, but not how to use one" - basically slagging him off for not marching against Rome in the aftermath of Cannae.
That is rather simplistic for while he had several opportunities to march on Rome itself, his chances of sacking it were not good as Hannibal had virtually no siege engines and he could not afford the exposure that a full blockade of Rome would have entailed, especially when there were still some Roman forces in the field.
At one stage, Hannibal did march on Rome and camped outside its walls but there is a famous story about the Roman reaction to his presence. The land he was camping on came up for auction but still managed to make as much money as it normally would instead of a cut price, so confident were the Romans of their ultimate victory.
It was a lot more complicated than that. His predecessors had been glorified raiders but Attila wanted something more and once he honed the Huns and their German vassals into an army, he was a major threat to Europe. The Eastern Roman Empire bought him off with monstrous amounts of gold, while the Western Roman Empire had to fight him. Check out the Battle of Chalons/Catalaunian Plains (the wiki page is really good) where the Roman general, Aetius, and his coalition of Romans, Franks, Goths, Burgundians, Alans, Saxons and other Germans forced Attila to withdraw without inflicting a defeat on him.
There is plenty of academic discussion about the importance of Chalons for while it prevented the Hunnic invasion of Gaul, it did not prevent Attila from returning the following year to invade Italy.
Don't even bother playing All Stars, you have much catching up to do with Mass Effect.
CripplerBenoitFan
Occasional Pre-Show
Yeah man don't even BOTHER dude. You have some much Mass Effecting to do.
justinsayne
Cody Rhodes is an excellant
Probably start in on it later, I don't want to dive into a game like Mass Effect while I have a headache.
I imagine ME is gonna take me awhile since I rarely play video games much during the week.
I imagine ME is gonna take me awhile since I rarely play video games much during the week.
Uncle Phatso
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Hey guys! It says down at the bottom all the mods are offline! WOOOOO, party in J's thread!
Oh, goodie. Let me get my popcorn GIFs.
Барбоса;4445665 said:
When you conquer more territory than any other commander in human history and coordinate armies hundreds of miles apart in the 13th century (culminating in wiping out Polish and Hungarian armies within two days of one another and separated by over 200 miles) you should earn a pretty high ranking on the "greatest ever generals" list.
Also, he was one of the first people in the west to use siege engines outside of siege warfare, which he did at Mohi to great success. His primary force was cavalry, but he could effectively use other things too.
The Mongols were remarkably indifferent to religion, so I'm not sure how converting them to Christianity would have helped. Well, not remarkably. Under Genghis and his immediate successors, at least they had the same attitude to religions as Cyrus the Great. But some of the Khanates did later convert to Islam, so there's that.
I'm sure that they'd have tried, in the hopes that a Christian Mongol empire would be less likely to do to Europe what they did to most of China, Iran and eastern Europe. Probably wouldn't have worked though.
That sounds in character for them; give or take some healthy paranoia (the Mongols spent a decade spying on the parts of Europe they invaded and had spies as far away as England). Giving people the option of surrender was something they did. It saved them the time and effort required to kill most of the population and destroy the city.
Uncle Phatso
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Tell him Uncle Phatso thinks he's a massive ass hat. I see him in here from time to time reading our shit. Fucking creeper...
I love how I act like J's thread should be members only. The dudes club. Rule one: No Dagger Dias, Rule two: Talk as much shit about him as possible.
justinsayne
Cody Rhodes is an excellant
Uncle Phatso
Mid-Card Championship Winner
A bunny..... eating pop corn. My day has been made, I love bunnys man. They are just so chill, and soft, and have huge ass ears.
justinsayne
Cody Rhodes is an excellant
May I recommend you bring a floss pick with you next time you go to the movies?
ÐаÑбоÑа
doesn't know REAL wrestling...
I find giving him the credit for such territory gains (a large section of it was empty land) and victories a little too much like whitewashing. He might have been the actual (if not overall) commander but he did not win all of the battles themselves, although his strategic planning must be admired.
I would also say that the quality of his opposition outside of China is another thing that holds me back from putting Subutai into the highest echelons of commanders.
The use of catapults and the like in battle was a long used tactic in Europe, including by the likes of Alexander the Great. Of course, it depends what you mean by 'siege engines' as it is possible that the Mongols brought gunpowder with them to Europe.
There is evidence of high religious types being able to dissuade 'barbarian pagans' from destructive war - I think one of the popes convinced Attila not to sack Rome - so they will almost certainly will have tried. In the Middle East, the Christians definitely saw the coming of the Mongols as a positive as it distracted the Muslims from the Crusader States.
I would say though that even if the Papacy was able to convince some Mongols to not destroy religious buildings or sites, that would not have stopped them raiding the rest of the countryside and cities.
Certainly in the early campaigns, the Mongols were quite a respectful bunch and only went on the rampage when they felt they had been wronged - the Khwarizmian Shah was only attacked after he executed a handful of Mongol ambassadors. Of course, much like the Romans and the Muslims, once they got the taste for conquest, their ideas of 'defensive imperialism' or 'national unification' were severely put to the test with increasingly flimsy excuses being used.
Mighty NorCal
SHALL WE BEGIN?
Барбоса;4445915 said:
uh, well, that and one of the most massive droughts in that time period. Had he pressed further into Italy his army most likely would have collapsed upon itself.
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