Fat Jokes and Ugly Jokes

[Eyebrows]

I'd like to know if you guys think I should lighten up in regards to this or if you somewhat agree with me. I can take humour on Raw. Some of it is pretty good, some of it misses the mark but I don't sit there humorlessly like Eberneezer Scrooge. But I can't agree with Lawler and Cena making fat and ugly jokes at Vickie Guerrero.

Vickie's lost a lot of weight recently. So she's not size 0, not many are. I don't think she's particularly ugly either. But having the top babyface make fun of her sets a bad example for the kids that follow Cena and make that sort of thing seem acceptable. I bet there's a load of Cena fans out there who believe themselves to be overweight. In high school I was overweight myself and worked hard to drop it so I find it hard to cheer for a face in this instance. I know that male wrestlers have called Big Show and Mark Henry fat at various times but a male-male dynamic isn't the same as a male-female dynamic. Last night was like a heel bullying routine.

Surely there's a better way to get face pops than this. As someone put in another thread, Vickie gets tremendous heat so it doesn't exactly take much. The WWE did a whole 'Piggy James' storyline with Laycool as the HEELS and now ask us to cheer for faces when they do pretty much the same thing.

Chauvinism in the WWE isn't exactly anything new but they don't make any attempt to change. Am I just being a Scrooge or do you agree that there's no place for this kind of thing in the WWE?

 

[Layorz]

Lighten up. Everyone should laugh at themselves once in a while. I've got red hair, I don't get worked up over Sheamus and Wendy getting shit every week. People will poke fun at everything and anything. Hair color, weight, race. You really need to realise that it's just that: poking fun. It's a joke. It's not a serious insult, it's just something funny. Cena gets his fair share, so does everyone really. Every other week you'll hear Cole or Striker rip Lawler about hanging around younger girls. The jokes aren't made with malicious intent, so there's no reason to take them like they were.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

I'm going to come to Eyebrows' aid here. I don't think he needs to lighten up.

I was watching last night's segment (albeit half asleep in a Melatonin induced coma) and though it was cute, I also thought it was cheap. Poking fun at Vicki's weight like its an episode of the Dirty Dozens on In Living Color is a little juvenile.

Now don't get me wrong - I laughed. As long as it doesn't become a week-in, week out habit, I'll be ok with it. Cena was happy, and they needed to manufacture some heat between he and Ziggler. Why Lawler got involved is beyond me.

But while I'm not offended by what was said, I hope WWE doesn't use this as the entry into low-grade humor as a weekly occurance.

 

[rkoshouldvewon]

I know I don't think any of the fat or ugly jokes are funny. Setting aside how juvenile it is to make fun of one's weight (much less a woman's weight which is another discussion), these are just one-liners. I don't find one liners funny in general unless it's an insider reference (Punk's Beautiful People comment to LayCool).

Maybe it's cause she's doing her job, but I don't like the Vickie character. It's go away heat for me. Having said that, what heels are Cena and King. IDC how 'evil' Vickie is, you have some of your top babyfaces calling a 50-something year old woman fat. Setting aside, it's factually incorrect. She isn't fat. Never was -- she was the average sized woman. Now she lost weight.

If you want to expand your female demos, and continue to target kids as your primary viewing audience... this is an awful strategy. You already have babes like Kelly, Maryse, and Layla who are size -2383893. And in promos they've had LayCool hint at Natty and Beth being manly because of bone structure and muscle mass. You can try to defend this by saying well they are the heels and are hated. To me that's not good enough. Either you bring this stuff up, and then have Natty or Beth cut a babyface promo saying that woman in all shapes, sizes, and colors are gorgeous OR you just don't do this type of stuff.

 

[VinnieSunshine]

In a time where the world is trying to protect kids from being bullied...Id say last nights segment set a bad example. Last week when King made a joke it was funny. The first joke last night was funny...it went on too long. Especially after a few weeks ago where Morrison gave his anti-bully speech to Sheamus.

 

[brandogg]

I think it was pretty stupid actually. It was just like the stuff they did do Mickie James (as has been mentioned) and was completely unnecessary. I know she goes along with it, but I think it's incredibly insulting not only to Vicki, but to Eddie Guerrero as well. She has no problem drawing heat on her own, and it just showed a complete lack of class. When Vince was doing stuff like making Trish Stratus bark like a dog - that worked, because it was showing that Vince is an asshole, but making fun of a woman because she's overweight (even if she agrees with the angle), especially a woman with children and who is the widow of a deceased wrestler, does absolutely nothing to elevate anyone involved, except for maybe Dolph Ziggler.

 

[Tired0FthePeople]

Vince had stated many times that his company pokes fun at everything and everyone. You got JTG now playing up the 'ignorant, ghetto, black dude' role. Crime Time has been doing this for a while now. WWE is a show, and like all sitcoms, there will be fat jokes, racial jokes...all KINDS of jokes. The E cant affort to cherry pick what topics are cool to joke around with and what topics arent. I mean, they're just fat jokes. Im pretty sure that most kids in grade 5-12 are in class telling "yo moma so fat" or 'yo moma so stupid' jokes.

Plus, Vicky herself is an actress. I would find it hard to believe if she herself has a problem with being the butt of script written fat jokes. I believe she enjoys her job and feels blessed to have the opportunity.

 

[legendkiller1979]

Normally I would agree with you. I hate the cheap way the WWE has tried to get their wrestlers over through the years. The reason I don't have a problem with last night is it was so over the top. At no point were Cena and Lawler were mean. Baby pictures taken by satellite? That's such an extreme exaggeration that it couldn't possible be taken seriously. Notice Cena called Sheamus a human jar of mayonnaise and not ginger. The mayonnaise joke is clever and funny and best of all it's not offensive. There is a fine line but I don't think last night crossed it.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I laughed when the jokes were told and I've got no problem with it as long as it's not something that becomes a regular thing. Sure it was juvenile but, c'mon people, most jokes in and of themselves are on the juvenile side as it is.

Sure it was also low brow but, quite honestly, so the fuck what? I honestly do believe that people need to lighten up a little. In this day and age, everything it seems gets made into a federal case. In this particular sense, as it was part of a wrestling storyline, I've got no problem with what happened. It's not as if John Cena just went out into the audience and started making fun of some overweight fan, now that's something I can see anyone having a problem with, but that's not what happened.

We've become a society obsessed with being politically correct. Sometimes, it's just fun to kick back and just enjoy something without weighing all the various ramifications that it might have on society. If this had taken place on Saturday Night Live or if some comedian did a bunch of fat & ugly jokes as part of his routine, we wouldn't give it a second thought.

 

[NWannabe]

Puh lease. SHe's not hot in King's eyes (the demographic) so she can be mocked mericlessly. That's the way the world works, entertainment works, and wwe works.

 

[Tired0FthePeople]

. When Vince was doing stuff like making Trish Stratus bark like a dog - that worked, because it was showing that Vince is an asshole,

This is where the problem comes in to play for me. A man in a position of power makes a woman who is 'beneath' him get on all fours and bark like a dog. This is acceptable because it does something for the heel character. Never mind the example it sets for boys not treating or viewing women as equals...why bring that in to when we are talking about storie lines here. But Vicky is a super heel. And super heals get poked at by the faces. Jericho and Rock humiliated Stephanie at every opportunity. Steph also got enough heat and Rock and Jericho didnt need to do it for the pops. To me its just cherry picking. Either its all ok because it all falls under the same umbrella or none of it is ok. Honestly I dont see how the Trish example is cool but the Vicky example isnt....those two examples fall under the same umbrella.

 

[Mekanik Kommandoh]

I think the segment worked well because of the extreme heat Vickie gets. Had it been anyone else, it probably would have looked mean-spirited and low brow. However, the crowd was so into it and Vickie is so over as a hated heel, it's hard to complain. Plus, I could tell she was trying to hold back laughter during the promo, so I highly doubt she has an issue with it. That being said, I agree that it shouldn't become too common of a thing, as you run the risk of making your top star look like a dick. It was a great segment in any case and it obviously built up great heat for the Ziggler/Cena match.

 

[blackmetalbuick]

It's a pretty stupid move on WWE's part with all these controversies popping up about young kids committing suicide from being teased for their sexuality or other reasons. Here they are boring us all to death with this PG stuff, and it would all end up being for nothing anyway when they find themselves wrapped up in a lawsuit when an overweight girl gets teased to death by a classmate, and then the media exposes the kid as a fan of the WWE.

 

[Mindshatter]

I thought it was a fantastic segment. It wasn't over the top and even Vickie was trying hard not to laugh. I certainly raised a smile but that was more to do with the way the crowd would never let her speak. If anything I think the segment was a monument to how well Vickie has played her heel character with the way the crowd was so into it.

As long as it isn't done every week then there is nothing wrong with it. All I think it shows is that yes people in the world make fun of others; deal with it. Lighten up people. Remember this is the company who had one of its workers have sex with a fake corpse on live TV.

 

[JDX]

It got a little nasty at the end. You want to talk about pack mentality, Cena Lawler and the universe put Nexus to shame. It is just the double standard that faces get. Can you image the hate Batista would have gotten if he had used the duct tape? I love that USA has a stop the hate campaign going on right. I wonder if Vince is going to get a call about that. But Vickie is tough she would left long ago if she couldn't take it. Maybe that was what the break was for a while back.

As to the Mickie James story on screen it was okay but if it is true that it done to get her to lose weight I say fuck them. Just tell her and she'll do it or at least try to.

 

[TUFFY54]

The thing that bugs me about the Vicki jokes is the fact that she isn't a Diva. She is a women in her forties that Vince gave a job to so she could feed her family after he husband died. She isn't a wrestler or a performer, she was a housewife. Granted she's done a hell of a job getting into the role of an annoying bitch. She probably gets more heat than any other woman in WWE history.

People making fun of Big Show or Mark Henry for being overweight is totally different because they always end up beating the shit out of the people mocking them. Also, it's a totally different dynamic when a guy is making fun of another guy.

It just went on too damn long. Have King crack a joke, then Cena says one. After that, Dolph sticks up for her and you have a match. C M Punk had a really pissed off look on his face during the whole ordeal when they would show the anounce table, and I think he personally echoed some of the same feeling people have here.

A lot of people have pointed out the Trish Stratus thing, but I had no problem with that. Trish was a fitness model who got her start modeling bikinis and a total knockout. Every guy watching RAW was drooling when she had to strip for Vince. Vickie is a middle aged woman with kids who is overweight. It was just pointless to have the biggest star in the company and a completely over hall of famer spend 5 minutes making fun of an older lady.

 

[Undertaker the 5th]

I think the WWE should stop making any type of jokes overall...0_0..but seriously WTF!!

A few weeks ago they made some gay jokes and people complained. Now they make fat and ugly jokes and you complain. Where is comedy going if people are going to fucking hate every minute of it and not laugh. I am not going to tell you to lighten up because it is your opinion, but I will recommend it.

 

[LSN80]

I seem to remember the Raw after Extreme Rules 2009, and Edge came to the ring and hurled the same sort of remarks at her. He basically noted that he married her for her power, found her worthless, and called her a she-beast. Similar to what Cena and Lawler said last night. The link for it is here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn6n2ipNsKI

I dont understand the rationale for WWE doing this. It was somewhat acceptable for Edge doing this, because he was a heel. But this was an embarrassment to John Cena and the entire WWE. There is no room for this. I don’t get what the fascination is with picking on Vickie like this. Sure, she's not a Diva, but this is over the top.

Cena is your top draw. Even moreso, he's booked to be a role model to kids. Making the comparison between a stand-up comedian making these jokes and Cena doing so doesn't hold water here because that's the norm for a stand-up comedian. Ive never been to a stand-up show and expected anything less. But the standard here is different, and needs to be examined in that manner. As WWE has gone PG, its hard to condone your top babyface ridiculing someone for her looks and weight alongside your most tenured broadcaster.

Look, I may seem uptight about this, but Im not. I laughed upon first airing, but as a friend, my wife, and I discussed the show afterwards, I noted this to be both funny, as well as the low point of the show for me. It's always been Cena's M.O. to make fun of people, virtually since the day he got a gimmick. But as someone whose portrayed as standing up for "Hustle, Loyalty, and Respect", there wasn't a whole lot of the latter in this exchange. I dont think youre being uptight whatsoever. Was it funny? Sure. Was it honorable? Hell no.

 

[WWEdomination4Life]

C'mon. Some are taking this way too seriously. I don't know how many people saw it, but Cena was visibly laughing his ass off and people said at times Vickie was even struggling not to laugh herself.

 

[I Suck Ass]

I've got to say that the Vickie getting the hell booed out of her, and the fat jokes, that moment should be in the top 50 RAW moments of all time. It was just gold, and I loved it. I don't think that they went to far with it. If anything, it helped get King even more over with the crowd, and help put Cena over with the fairly tough crowd tonight.

 

[martymcfly]

I just wanted to add a couple comments in response to some of the posters above me. First, a couple people have said the segment must have been ok because vickie was "trying hard not to laugh." You are incorrect. She was trying hard not to laugh during the times that she was trying to speak and the crowd became so loud that she could not. She was NOT trying hard not to laugh during the fat joke segments. Just because that happened earlier in the skit does not mean that she spent the whole time trying not to laugh. So that is not a valid argument.

Second, others have said that it must have been okay because she wouldn't have done it otherwise. Um, no. Pretty much if you are under contract you do what you are told if you want to keep your job. JR is a classic example. Another example was Tiger ali singh, who begged vince to not have to wear a turban because he and his family found it offensive, but vince made him do it anyway. Other wrestlers have on occasion hated their personas or story angles but given no choice in the matter. So no, that is not a valid argument either.

I'm not going to touch the trish stratus dog thing because that was absolutely horrible, typical classless mcmahon fare and should be forgotten.

I think overall I agree that the skit last night was in poor taste. While I do see where some of the posters are coming from with their "lighten up" comments, as I don't think anyone was really hurt by that whole bit in real life. On the other hand what it boiled down to was 2 people ganging up on and embarrassing and humiliating a middle aged woman who had no way to defend herself or fight back. And if that is what we really have here, I don't see how anyone can condone it, "good natured" or not. As someone else said above, at least if wrestlers get teased they can fight back.

Finally, we have to consider that John Cena is a role model to kids, and kids don't ever need much incentive to tease other kids, especially overweight ones. Not I'm certainly not saying that kids are going to tease only because they saw Cena doing it but I don't think that having one of the top faces and biggest role model for kids really sets a good example.

 

[Mreastbay414]

Ok......I enjoyed Raw Last night. No doubt, it felt pretty fresh......except The Vickie Guererro segment. Ive heard arguements that they did it to produce heat. Well, from the second Vickie stepped out to the ring last night, she had MASSIVE heat. This insulting banter was........just pointless. It made Cena look stupid. Yeah having the Make-A-Wish guy trade insults over a 40 yr old woman with a 60 year old with a crown......I dont see how anyone who gets paid to entertain us would consider this GOLDEN.

But none of it matters. WWE got the reaction they wanted, Vickie gets paid, and we are left to explain to, not only or kids why teasing someone is wrong. But try to explain to some one who isnt a wrestling fan why the hell we watch this. Segments like that make people not stick around for the good stuff (Like the Cena/Ziggler match......). After a time, they give up and change the channel, or walk out of the room (Like my g/f did, she is sticking to ROH from here on.) Why taint a really enjoyable RaW with some unneeded bull like that, Ill never have an explaination for.

 

[RendarSelin]

I'm going to have to agree with the posters saying that this was a little unnecessary. I was absolutely loving the segment up until the point John Cena and Jerry "The King" Lawler started exchanging the fat jokes, and have to admit, I chuckled during a couple of them. She couldn't keep a straight face when the crowd wouldn't even let her get her opening lines in, and that made the segment that much better in my opinion.

However, when we have such a heavy focus on anti-bullying in the media and there's campaigns even on the USA Network to "accept all characters" (or whatever it is), is it really a smart move on WWE's part to have their top babyface, the man who's the single largest wish granter with the Make-A-Wish Foundation, and truly a great role model for young kids with his "Never Give Up!" slogan, take part in bullying a woman that isn't a size 0? Hell Vickie Guerrero isn't even fat. Sure she's not a twig like Kelly Kelly, but I would by no means qualify her as a fat woman.

Now, I'm not too surprised King was involved in the segment. After all, even though he's a face, he has long been regarded as a chauvinistic pig (whether drooling over the Divas or screaming for puppies). However, I felt like this was completely out of character for John Cena. It would have been different had Cena target Ziggler, as I'm sure there's plenty that Cena could have poked fun at with Ziggler and gotten a great reaction from the crowd and set up the wonderful Cena/Ziggler match we had last night.

The segment sure did one thing: it got me interested in the rematch tonight.

 

[Tired0FthePeople]

We seem to be mixing kayfabe and real life reasoning here as to why the segment was in bad taste. Cena setting a bad example for kids and Vicky being 40 years (real life) and wrestlers being able to fight back (kayfabe) if they are being made fun of.

Wrestling is probably not the best place for kids to get real life role models. Sooner or later Cena will be a heel, and he's going to definately talk about Vicky's weight and probably hit her in the back with a steel chair. Then what? Either kids look at the entirety of wrestling from a kayfabe point of view or none of it. Being OK with heels doing horrible 'heel things' because its helps the heel character but thinking kids will get the wrong idea if a face tells fat jokes seems strange to me.

Just an opinion though.

 

[CaptainZaltan]

I don't watch WWE often, and this segment reminded me of one of the reasons why. I don't get the WWE's 'humor'. Generally, it seems like it's written by a very immature 12 year old bully, and this segment was no different. Name one other form of media or employment where it would be acceptable to require that an employee submit to having her weight and appearance criticized by her co-workers in a public forum? On a childrens show, no less. It just wouldn't happen. It's not even as though Vickie is an unattractive woman. She looks great for her age considering she's had several children. The message being portrayed is therefore that it's unacceptable for women to look like anything less than a WWE Diva, a standard which is difficult for young women and near impossible for middle aged ones. That's great PR for the WWE with bullying being such a hot-button issue at the moment.

But lets just skip past the ethical issues, as I'm sure the general response is just going to be "lighten up." In addition to being disgusting, the segment just wasn't funny. Nothing the WWE does is funny. When wrestlers were allowed to come up with their own promos and speak with their own voices, wrestling was often hilarious. Nowadays, every characters attempts at 'humor' just seem like the same tired antics of the same emotionally disturbed 12 year old writer. And worst of all, the 'comedy' is more prevalent than ever. If someone could come up with some sort of Tivo like device that could filter out every single 'comedy' segment from WWE programming, I might actually start watching again. Until that time, I think I'm done.