ECW Region, Calgary Subregion, Round 1: (6) Chris Jericho vs. (27) Samoa Joe

[Con T.]

Samoe Joe hasn't put people over? You do realise he has lost matches to the likes of Crimson, Gunner, D'Angelo Dinero, Devon, Kazarian but to name a few. At least Jericho puts credible people over; ignoring Heath Slater in the argument, that was during a time WWE were attempting to put some of the NXT rookies over some pros, hence why they allowed Danielson to stick with Jericho for so long on the debut episode of NXT. Heath Slater has a victory over Jericho, Samoa Joe has taken a loss to Rob Terry. May be bigger but also much lesser of a professional wrestler than Heath Slater, therefore we can make the Jericho loss to Joe null-and-void.

And even on those losses, he was still booked as a threat, someone who could snap at a moment's notice. Joe managed to still look like a threat, even with the losing streak angle. Do you know how hard that is for a wrestler to still look dangerous during a losing streak angle? See; MVP, Drew McIntyre, Zack Ryder. If anything, you're giving me a plus that Joe still looked credible, in that losing streak, because wrestlers can't normally pull that off.

Once again, look at where Samoa Joe is to where Chris Jericho is. Someone in a random tag team to somebody who competed for the WWE Championship and had the best wrestling match on the show only three weeks ago at Wrestlemania. Yeah, Chris Jericho still prevails as superior to Samoa
Joe.

Riddle me this; if John Cena was actually in the title scene, And that all of the part timers that are more over than Jericho would come back, that Jericho would be getting into that title scene? Even now, the WWE title isn't the main thing to watch for on Raw; that'd be Cena and the like. If anything, Punk and Jericho are mid to upper mid card, depending on Vince's mood for the day. Pointing out he's around the WWE belt ain't all thy great when you realize no one's watching for the WWE title

 

[Big Sexy]

Samoa Joe's dominant period in TNA also happens to be the same period where TNA's talent pool was at its worse. As the talent pool in TNA has grown, Samoa Joe has started to lose more and more to the point where he hasn't been anywhere near the main event in a while.

 

[JGlass]

Samoe Joe hasn't put people over? You do realise he has lost matches to the likes of Crimson, Gunner, D'Angelo Dinero, Devon, Kazarian but to name a few. At least Jericho puts credible people over; ignoring Heath Slater in the argument, that was during a time WWE were attempting to put some of the NXT rookies over some pros, hence why they allowed Danielson to stick with Jericho for so long on the debut episode of NXT. Heath Slater has a victory over Jericho, Samoa Joe has taken a loss to Rob Terry. May be bigger but also much lesser of a professional wrestler than Heath Slater, therefore we can make the Jericho loss to Joe null-and-void.

Comparing the booking of TNA to that of WWE is a little unfair. WWE has a very clear hierarchy of undercard, lower-midcard, midcard, upper-midcard, main event. TNA has a much looser system where one month someone can be in the upper-midcard area, and the next month they could not be on TV altogether. In fact, Joe's ability to stay on TNA and be a major player as long as he has indicated that he's got serious ability and staying power.

Once again, look at where Samoa Joe is to where Chris Jericho is. Someone in a random tag team to somebody who competed for the WWE Championship and had the best wrestling match on the show only three weeks ago at Wrestlemania. Yeah, Chris Jericho still prevails as superior to Samoa Joe.

I think you'll find that comparing where wrestlers are today is the absolute worst argument you can make in this tournament. If that's the direction you want to go with, I can't wait to see you argue why Chono should go over Savage.

Of course, I assume this is supposed to contribute to some sort of "longevity" argument, but I would argue that that's irrelevant in a tournament like this. When it comes down wrestler to wrestler, each at their peak, it doesn't matter who has had the longer, more prosperous career. What matters is who the better wrestler is, and that's Samoa Joe, the man that's put on more entertaining matches, and has been more dominant than Jericho ever has.

 

[Con T.]

You can examine my above post. Jericho doesn't do the job to the likes of Devon Dudley. And bringing Five Star Matches into it does you no favors. Dave Meltzer, a guy with a great knowledge of pro-wrestling and all is as biased as they come. He'd rate the lower card of a Ring of Honor pay-per-view higher than he would a show stealing match at a Wrestlemania; I've heard interviews with him, he has even stated previously he enjoys the pure wrestling style more.

Ok, then let's figure this out; Jericho wrestled that pure style in Japan a lot, now didn't he? He wrestled against all of the best light heavyweights that Japan had to offer. He wrestled Benoit, Liger, Sasuke, all of them. So then, why couldn't he pull a five star math, there as well? I mean, you make it out to be that wrestling that style grants you a pass to that distinction, but Jericho never did it. And it wasn't from a lack of good workers to work with, either. He actually had better workers to work with than Samoa Joe.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Samoe Joe hasn't put people over? You do realise he has lost matches to the likes of Crimson, Gunner, D'Angelo Dinero, Devon, Kazarian but to name a few. At least Jericho puts credible people over; ignoring Heath Slater in the argument, that was during a time WWE were attempting to put some of the NXT rookies over some pros, hence why they allowed Danielson to stick with Jericho for so long on the debut episode of NXT. Heath Slater has a victory over Jericho, Samoa Joe has taken a loss to Rob Terry. May be bigger but also much lesser of a professional wrestler than Heath Slater, therefore we can make the Jericho loss to Joe null-and-void.

Once again, look at where Samoa Joe is to where Chris Jericho is. Someone in a random tag team to somebody who competed for the WWE Championship and had the best wrestling match on the show only three weeks ago at Wrestlemania. Yeah, Chris Jericho still prevails as superior to Samoa Joe.

When Joe was at his most dominant, where was Jericho? Losing to Cena and getting "fired."

Can't blame you for trying though.



I'd say the biggest reason I can't get into these arguments for Joe is that to me that means Joe would beat Edge as well. Are you prepared to endorse that implication?

Also, am I the only one that noticed this match is in Calgary? Seems like that might give Jericho a little boost.

Jericho's lost in Calgary.

 

[Con T.]

Samoa Joe's dominant period in TNA also happens to be the same period where TNA's talent pool was at its worse. As the talent pool in TNA has grown, Samoa Joe has started to lose more and more to the point where he hasn't been anywhere near the main event in a while.

The only differences, at least in the main event scene, is that Jeff Hardy and RVD are in the main event, and Anderson somewhat. Other than that, let's see here;

Angle? Check
Sting? Check
Styles? Still there, yep.
Daniels? Still around
Storm and Roode? Up the card

If anything, TNA lost names like Christian and Booker T, who Joe has beaten, and are pretty damn solid names. Joe's being booked for shit right now, but all those names that Joe beat are still around. He'll, some of them are booked worse than Joe. See; Daniels, Styles

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Samoa Joe's dominant period in TNA also happens to be the same period where TNA's talent pool was at its worse. As the talent pool in TNA has grown, Samoa Joe has started to lose more and more to the point where he hasn't been anywhere near the main event in a while.

When Joe was dominant, TNA had Shelley, Sabin, Styles, Daniels, Christian, Angle, Jarrett, and Sting. Now you have Roode, Storm, Angle, Hardy, and Bully Ray. I would suffice to say the top of TNA was stronger back then than it is now.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

At his best, Joe put on better matches than Jericho. At his best, Joe was more dominant than Jericho.

I disagree. Look at the people that Joe has had some of his best matches with. Kenta Kobashi, Bryan Danielson, AJ Styles and Christopher Daniels. Chris Jericho has had some excellent matches with the likes of Triple H, Juve Guerrera, Rey Mysterio, Dean Malenko, Lance Storm, Rob Van Dam; guys who people recognize as talents but don't place on a pedestill like they do the likes of Danielson, Kobashi and Styles. Triple H wouldn't out-wrestle Kenta to save his life. Jericho isn't recognised as good of a wrestler as he should be but it is known worldwide that the guy is an excellent in-ring talent, and again, when you wish to look at the past, while Joe was the TNA World Heavyweight Champion, Jericho was the World Heavyweight Champion. While Joe was the ROH Pure Champion, Jericho was one of the most over guys in the business and was only holding the World Tag Team Championship.

Once again, I love Samoa Joe, but I'm not dellusional, he doesn't hold a candle stick to Chris Jericho in the realms of performance, ability now or ability in the past. Sure Joe was a beast when he was in Ring of Honor... yet again, in Ring of Honor, and in TNA for his early days. Take that away from him and what did you get? Someone who they barely see use for.

Jericho took away everything that made him who he was. Took away his personality, his charisma, his look and his style and still people recognised him as one of the top talents in the industry and in the world. It takes skill to stay on top after you reinvent yourself, something Joe has had little success in doing. Or should we mention the Nation of Violence?

At his best, Joe was the most dominant wrestler not only in TNA, but in American professional wrestling. At Jericho's best, he was using sleazy tactics to beat WWF's best to win titles.

At Jericho's best in-terms of stature within a company, sure. Within Jericho's best in-terms of an overall wrestler he was the most over person in both Mexico during his tenure there and in WCW when he originally showed up there. Jericho helped revolutionise the type of product that brought guys like Rey Mysterio to an American stage to begin with, in the light heavyweight days of WCW, the most over person was easily Chris Jericho and anybody who attempts to deny that is a moron.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

And even on those losses, he was still booked as a threat, someone who could snap at a moment's notice. Joe managed to still look like a threat, even with the losing streak angle. Do you know how hard that is for a wrestler to still look dangerous during a losing streak angle? See; MVP, Drew McIntyre, Zack Ryder. If anything, you're giving me a plus that Joe still looked credible, in that losing streak, because wrestlers can't normally pull that off.

Samoa Joe wasn't looking like a threat, he went into said losses with people knowing he was going to lose, hence why very few people cared. Joe didn't appear on a pay-per-view event for two months. When you appear almost weekly on television and can't make a pay-per-view you know something is wrong. Chris Jericho has never had a losing streak probably because nobody would take it realistically and because it would be non-sensical, Joe has, because at the time TNA didn't barely recognise him as a viable talent and denying that is idiotic and I welcome it.

Riddle me this; if John Cena was actually in the title scene, And that all of the part timers that are more over than Jericho would come back, that Jericho would be getting into that title scene? Even now, the WWE title isn't the main thing to watch for on Raw; that'd be Cena and the like. If anything, Punk and Jericho are mid to upper mid card, depending on Vince's mood for the day. Pointing out he's around the WWE belt ain't all thy great when you realize no one's watching for the WWE title

WWE Championship is still what most recognise as the top title in the promotion. No matter whose challenging for it or where it is placed on the card; is Jericho more over than a Rock or Brock Lesnar? Probably not. Is Samoa Joe currently more over than either The Rock, Jericho or Lesnar? In no way, shape or form, not. Jericho is still competing for the WWE Championship where Joe is holding the TNA World Tag Team Championship; a deminishing division may I add, in a thrown together tag team. Look upon it as you will, Jericho currently holds a much better standing than Samoa Joe.

 

[JGlass]

Can't blame you for trying though.

During Joe's run? 18 months of being undefeated between 2005-2006. Who was more dominant during that time? Cena was good, but he wasn't super Cena yet.

I'd say the biggest reason I can't get into these arguments for Joe is that to me that means Joe would beat Edge as well. Are you prepared to endorse that implication?

In a tournament like this? I don't see why not, especially if we're talking about dominant Joe. The only guys I see beating him are the real superstars, or guys like Thesz, Lewis, Andre, and other hookers. And Rey Mysterio, naturally.

Also, am I the only one that noticed this match is in Calgary? Seems like that might give Jericho a little boost.

I did notice this, but let's not forget Jericho has thrown enough shit at Canada to negate that advantage. Jericho would probably cut a promo before the match denouncing Canada.

I disagree. Look at the people that Joe has had some of his best matches with. Kenta Kobashi, Bryan Danielson, AJ Styles and Christopher Daniels. Chris Jericho has had some excellent matches with the likes of Triple H, Juve Guerrera, Rey Mysterio, Dean Malenko, Lance Storm, Rob Van Dam; guys who people recognize as talents but don't place on a pedestill like they do the likes of Danielson, Kobashi and Styles.

You're kidding, right? Rey Mysterio is easily better than any of the other guys you named, and Dean Malenko could get a great match out of a plastic bag.

Triple H wouldn't out-wrestle Kenta to save his life. Jericho isn't recognised as good of a wrestler as he should be but it is known worldwide that the guy is an excellent in-ring talent, and again, when you wish to look at the past, while Joe was the TNA World Heavyweight Champion, Jericho was the World Heavyweight Champion. While Joe was the ROH Pure Champion, Jericho was one of the most over guys in the business and was only holding the World Tag Team Championship.

No, Jericho gets way more credit than he deserves. Those great matches he put on with the likes of Rey and Malenko? He couldn't have put those matches on without a buttload of help from those guys.

Once again, I love Samoa Joe, but I'm not dellusional, he doesn't hold a candle stick to Chris Jericho in the realms of performance, ability now or ability in the past. Sure Joe was a beast when he was in Ring of Honor... yet again, in Ring of Honor, and in TNA for his early days. Take that away from him and what did you get? Someone who they barely see use for.

What a horrible argument. Take away the best parts of him, and he sucks. You can say that about Jericho too, let's not act like the guy was solid gold throughout his career. And let's also not forget that there was a time when his gimmick was that he was a loser...

Jericho took away everything that made him who he was. Took away his personality, his charisma, his look and his style and still people recognised him as one of the top talents in the industry and in the world. It takes skill to stay on top after you reinvent yourself, something Joe has had little success in doing. Or should we mention the Nation of Violence?

Great, Jericho reinvented his character once! How does that help in a one on one wrestling match?

I once again cite KB saying that we're voting on who the better wrestler is, as in: who would win in a wrestling match.

At Jericho's best in-terms of stature within a company, sure. Within Jericho's best in-terms of an overall wrestler he was the most over person in both Mexico during his tenure there and in WCW when he originally showed up there. Jericho helped revolutionise the type of product that brought guys like Rey Mysterio to an American stage to begin with, in the light heavyweight days of WCW, the most over person was easily Chris Jericho and anybody who attempts to deny that is a moron.

And Samoa Joe showed that fat men could fly in in the 21st century. We can talk about what they did for the product all we want, but that doesn't change anything when it comes down to two men in a ring. The Ultimate Warrior was a horrible person and a horrible employee, but he ran through the WWF with ease, and you'll see him make it far in this tournament because of it.

Likewise, Samoa Joe should make it past Chris Jericho, because when push comes to shove, Samoa Joe was an absolute beast in the ring, capable of excelling in every aspect of wrestling. At his best, Chris Jericho needed to cheat to win.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

When Joe was at his most dominant, where was Jericho? Losing to Cena and getting "fired."

He was taking a hiatus from the industry. When Jericho was having the feud of the year with Shawn Michaels, where was Joe? Dressing in face paint, making a lacklustre return and not achieving anything under the Nation of Violence gimmick. Before slipping further-and-further down the card.

 

[JJYanks121]

Boy, this one is fun. Well, let's take a crack at this.

There have been some compelling arguments against Jericho. He loses to a lot of people, he might be a tad overrated, and he was never THE guy. All fair and valid points and I'm not disagreeing with any of them. However, there are some actually trying to argue that of all people, Samoa Joe is the guy to beat him?

First off, let me dispute some of the main arguments before getting to the main point.

1) The Rock was notorious for putting people over including the freakin Hurricane! Does that make Rock any less of a wrestler because he was willing to do that? By this logic, Hogan is the best, especially in WCW because of douchiness. Doesn't seem like a very good reason to support someone in a tournament.

2) Comparing debuts is dumb. Jericho had been given nothing in WCW due to old men taking a massive dump on the main event in that company. The kid is given a true platform on his first night in WWF and it made an impact. He himself felt he messed up but fans remember it to this day. Yes, it took him time after the debut to regain steam but his first Mania match was against Benoit and Angle. I'd say he did ok for himself to be in that match. Now Joe debuted in a much smaller company and he debuted small(ish). He had an undefeated streak and it worked pretty well but the guys he was beating weren't so great. Plus, he didn't win his 1 title shot as Styles won though Joe wasn't pinned.

3) Jericho was never THE MAN in WWE but Joe hasn't been THE MAN in TNA either. That company is always looking for someone who is more established and more known so call the booking team idiots all you want but Joe was never the guy. However, Jericho has remained around the top for a long time and I'd think that does hold some water. If Joe is as good as people say he is, you'd think he'd be held in higher regard to TNA than a no talent hack like Crimson.

Joe to me is like so many before him. He compares to Khali, Koslov, even Lord Tensai today. These are men who are powerful dudes that get pushed as "badasses" until they get beat and they never reach the same level of importance afterwords. I know that Joe is a better wrestler than the aforementioned names (though A-Train in his prime was pretty good) but that's what he is and was. He got the big push, though it took forever to get him the title, but after that, he's been nowhere near that level. Internet fans force the hand of TNA every now and again to involve him in stuff but he's not a believable threat and hasn't been for years. Jericho is 40 and still finds reason to be relevant. Jericho needs no help in being featured on television as he does that himself.

Now, as for the match itself. Joe can wrestle just fine but Jericho's immense world experince (this is the International Region after all) helps him find a way to win. That's all he needs to do. If either of these guys needs to outsmart the other, it's clearly Jericho.

For me, this was pretty easy. Flash in the pan or a guy who has proven his worth for years. I'll go with the guy who continues to find ways over the guy who, much like the Proclaiimers, was a One Hit Wonder on a major stage.

That song is awesome though (I'm Gonna Be).........

 

[Big Sexy]

The only differences, at least in the main event scene, is that Jeff Hardy and RVD are in the main event, and Anderson somewhat. Other than that, let's see here;

Angle? Check
Sting? Check
Styles? Still there, yep.
Daniels? Still around
Storm and Roode? Up the card

If anything, TNA lost names like Christian and Booker T, who Joe has beaten, and are pretty damn solid names. Joe's being booked for shit right now, but all those names that Joe beat are still around. He'll, some of them are booked worse than Joe. See; Daniels, Styles

I think the additions of Hardy, RVD, Anderson, Bully Ray, and Crimson plus the promotions of guys like Storm and Roode makes the roster a lot better then it was.

TNA's roster as a whole is better now and the number of main event caliber guys is also up. Throughout 2006-2008 you had Christian, Jarrett, Sting, and Angle for the most part with one reign from Abyss and one from Joe. From 2009-2011 you had 9 different guys win the world title and you have even more that are ready to take that next step.

Go back from Joe's dominant period and what huge names did he actually dominate? Did he beat Kurt Angle? Yes but he also lost to him just as many times. Did he beat Sting? Yes but he also lost to him. The same arguments you are using against Jericho can be applied to Joe.

 

[Con T.]

Chris Jericho has never had a losing streak probably because nobody would take it realistically and because it would be non-sensical, Joe has, because at the time TNA didn't barely recognise him as a viable talent and denying that is idiotic and I welcome it.




WWE Championship is still what most recognise as the top title in the promotion. No matter whose challenging for it or where it is placed on the card; is Jericho more over than a Rock or Brock Lesnar? Probably not. Is Samoa Joe currently more over than either The Rock, Jericho or Lesnar? In no way, shape or form, not. Jericho is still competing for the WWE Championship where Joe is holding the TNA World Tag Team Championship; a deminishing division may I add, in a thrown together tag team. Look upon it as you will, Jericho currently holds a much better standing than Samoa Joe.

Actually, just so you know, Jericho did have the losing streak gimmick in his career. Twice actually, first time he turned heel in WCW, and a second time when he was just about to leave WWE a couple years ago, when he lost to, in no order,

Evan Bourne
John Morrison
Kofi Kingston
Before finally getting punted out by Randy Orton.

So yes, let's add some more jobbers that Chris has lost to in his career.

You're missing my point, by the way. Rather, you're skirting it. You want to know if Joe and Magnus are getting the tag belts over? Yeah, I'd say they are, in a division with so few teams, they've been getting tv time, and getting the belts over. they saved the belts from the drizzling shuts of Morgan-Son, and are making them relevant. Now tell me, has the WWE title meant more or less in the WWE since Jericho has been in the title picture?

 

[Big Sexy]

When Joe was dominant, TNA had Shelley, Sabin, Styles, Daniels, Christian, Angle, Jarrett, and Sting. Now you have Roode, Storm, Angle, Hardy, and Bully Ray. I would suffice to say the top of TNA was stronger back then than it is now.

TNA still has Shelley, Sabin, and Styles as well they are just down the card. Not to mention Anderson, RVD, Crimson. The fact that guys like Styles and Daniels are down the card along with Joe shows that the talent now is better.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

You're kidding, right? Rey Mysterio is easily better than any of the other guys you named, and Dean Malenko could get a great match out of a plastic bag.

Mysterio is not better than Kenta Kobashi nor is he better than Danielson when Bryan was at the peak of his independent career. Truth is when it comes down to it, although Mysterio is entertaining to watch and all he has never been all as he has been hyped up to be. Malenko could make a great match out of wrestling a twig, but when you paired him and Jericho together they made a better match than anybody can dispute.

No, Jericho gets way more credit than he deserves. Those great matches he put on with the likes of Rey and Malenko? He couldn't have put those matches on without a buttload of help from those guys.

Can be said for anybody, takes two to tango after all, but where has the almighty Samoa Joe been the past three years while Jericho claimed himself as the "The Best In The World..." without many disagreeing. Hell, ask a casual fan which they prefer as an in-ring performer, Jericho will come out on top nine times out of ten, because he is much more diverse and much more entertaining than Samoa Joe.

What a horrible argument. Take away the best parts of him, and he sucks. You can say that about Jericho too, let's not act like the guy was solid gold throughout his career. And let's also not forget that there was a time when his gimmick was that he was a loser...

Once again, you take away the best part of anybodies career and they suck, same was as I approached the it takes to two to tango comment above. And no, Jericho hasn't been solid gold throughout his career, which makes him all that much better, because when Jericho was being placed on the shit side of the card in WCW he was still churning out the best matches on the card each and every night. While Jericho was being a lower card talent he was still getting more over than some main event talent at time in WCW. Hell, even in WWE, case in point when he won the WWE Championship from Triple H.

Great, Jericho reinvented his character once! How does that help in a one on one wrestling match?

I once again cite KB saying that we're voting on who the better wrestler is, as in: who would win in a wrestling match.

Jericho's character is a basis of how he wrestles. Jericho under the Y2J monicker, could lose to Samoa Joe, but Jericho under his narcissist gimmick I fail to see losing a one-on-one match to Samoa Joe, especially considering Jericho even in his weakest form is arguabley at the strength of Joe in his most dominant. Joe beat a whole host of nobodies during his streak until the talent started coming at him, and once he lost to one he began to decline. Jericho never had that because Jericho has always either gotten better or stayed the same.

And Samoa Joe showed that fat men could fly in in the 21st century. We can talk about what they did for the product all we want, but that doesn't change anything when it comes down to two men in a ring. The Ultimate Warrior was a horrible person and a horrible employee, but he ran through the WWF with ease, and you'll see him make it far in this tournament because of it.

Likewise, Samoa Joe should make it past Chris Jericho, because when push comes to shove, Samoa Joe was an absolute beast in the ring, capable of excelling in every aspect of wrestling. At his best, Chris Jericho needed to cheat to win.

Was an absolute beast in the ring. Currently he doesn't hold anything against Chris Jericho. It is like me debating Kane/Regal, Kane was a beast in the ring but a lot of people will debate Regal ought to make it past based off his wrestling skills and due to his experience in the industry. Difference is here, Jericho has the accolades and talent to back up any argument people attempt to hurl towards this debate.

Resistance is futile as is me arguing it. Jericho takes a victory, once again, with ease. I await the debates of Jerry Lawler in the next round and as a small scope as to how I plan to defend that... Lawler contributed massively towards the industry, too bad he did damn all outside of Memphis.

 

[The Brain]

Dragon Saga, one thing you seem to be overlooking is that we are supposed to judge these guys based on their prime. You continue to mention that Jericho is in a program with the WWE champion whlie Joe is floundering. Imagine the Samoa Joe from around 2004-2007 against Jericho. That is a much more compelling match. To be honest I'm not even completely sure who I'm going to vote for. I'm definitely leaning toward Joe but the truth is I didn't see much of him during his prime, or ever for that matter. I do know he received very high praise from PWI during the mid 00s and while they may not be regarded as a credible source for the most part the feature articles were reserved for WWE stars. For Joe to get as much attention as he did stood out to me back then. The fact that Joe was the obvious first opponent for Kurt Angle upon his entrance into TNA also stood out. Ultimately Jericho will probably win this fairly easily. It's fun to post but when the polls open I'm sure Jericho will receive the majority of the support. I'll wait a couple days to make up my mind.

 

[PsychoBlack]

Jericho is great but so overated it's not even funny. He's the guy that you have there to be World Champion when you have no one else, he's the guy that comes in to cut great promos against a champion to make it seem as if there facing adversity and overcome it by defeating him. I'm not sure when his prime was either seeing as how he was at his best during the times when he was no where near a world title. Joe on the other hand is a wrecking machine. Whether he had the title or not everyone knew he was the best wrestler on the planet for about 4 years. He had great matches with Styles Angle Jarrett Danielson and even Kenta Kobashi. This guy proved more in 4 years than most do in entire careers Joe goes over in what should be a pretty good match.

 

[Johnny Scumm]

Don't vote Joe. He's great, but he's not Jericho. Sorry, but he's not.

I'm going to say it, but Joe hasn't beaten Stone Cold & The Rock in one night, has he? He wasn't the first Undisputed Champion and just hasn't been on the same level as Jericho. Joe possibly gets stuck back a bit, being in TNA because the guys he has beaten just don't really hit the same notes as Jericho. Reaction-wise, Jericho wins it day in, day out.

Not to mention that the match takes place in Canada, where Jericho hails from. Jericho's always been on a bigger stage & level than Samoe Joe so;

JS votes Jericho

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Very well then, let's go ahead and call that loss a learning experience. What do we call that loss to RVD in his first match of the 2002 KOTR?

Or, are we arguing that isn't his prime again?

Nope, that was his prime. He lost matches, and for the 334th time, I get that. I'm not saying Jericho isn't a part-time jobber. He is. However, he has been dominant, and he has beaten guys Joe hasn't even been important enough to face. Those are facts.

The main basis of your argument is that TNA is a smaller promotion

Actually, that's not the basis of my argument. I'm dealing in reality here. I know Jericho is capable of winning this thing, given his wins over Rock and Austin in the same night. Joe, on the other hand, hasn't proven that.

and therefore I should take Joe beating pretty much all the same names as Jericho has, and have them mean less. Sure, Joe hasn't beaten Rock, Austin, or Cena. Not like Jericho's beaten Cena either, but it seems we're still back to Jericho beat Rock and Austin on the same night.

We're back to that because that's what's important here.

And, from there, if I may move out of kayfabe for a second... Do you really think that if Triple H wasn't out with his quad injury, we'd be discussing this momentous night for Chris? I'd theorize that Jericho was a placeholder for Triple H, someone to keep the title, until Triple H came back.

Good for Jericho. Shows his ability to move up and down a card with ease. He's credible even though he loses as often as he wins. That's a positive, not a negative.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

Man this is tough. One thing I'd like to know is as we are comparing these guys when in their primes, do we take into consideration the condition of the guys they faced at that time too? For instance, Jericho has a win over Cena, but it was when Cena was a rookie. Joe holds a victory over Booker T, but it was in the twilight of Booker's in-ring career.

When Jericho was facing Rock through late 01-early 02, Rock was surely close to his prime then, but was Austin? (Thinking about his neck problems here.)
When Joe was facing Bryan Danielson and AJ Styles, would those guys be considered in their prime too? I fear I'm maybe opening a can of worms here.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I have to give this one to Jericho. Personally, I think Joe is pretty overrated. Not that he doesn't have talent and can't do in the ring, but in the time I've watched TNA, I've never seen this unstoppable human juggernaut that Joe fans have made him out to be. Maybe he was at one time or another, but I've just never seen it in the roughly 6 years I've watched TNA.

From an overall perspective, not only do I enjoy Jericho much more but he's a much better wrestler in my eyes. He won't just go in there and plow through Joe I'm sure, Joe will give him all he wants and probably a little more. But, I just can't ignore Jericho's ability coupled with the matches he's been in and the accomplishments he's earned. I know some people harp on Jericho beating Stone Cold & The Rock both in one night in singles matches as being overrated. Maybe it is to some degree but, at the same time, he beat the two biggest stars of the past 20 years in one night and unified two World Championships. Nothing Joe has done can come close to that in my eyes. Jericho has been a big fish in a mighty big pond for more than a decade and Joe hasn't. I know it's fashionable to root for the underdog, which Joe is in this setting, but, in my eyes, Jericho's just the better wrestler with the accolades to back it up.

 

[NSL]

I am a huge fan of Samoa Joe. His matches with AJ, Daniels, and Angle were all amazing. He's had other top-notch matches, but against lower-quality opponents.

Jericho just flat out beats him though. He's been better than Joe for longer than Joe, and has done it in more companies. He made a name for himself in ECW, was everyone's favorite heel in WCW, and has excelled in WWF/E. And, has anyone mentioned that Jericho is at home here, in Canada? I don't see a valid argument for putting Joe over Y2J here.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Well, stop the match. It's in Canada. Jericho wins. I never given a single fuck about a match being in someone's hometown or country. Jericho lost that glorious Undisputed Title in Canada. I could name wrestler upon wrestler who routinely lose in their hometown. It doesn't make a damn bit of difference.

 

[shattered dreams]

Dragon Saga, one thing you seem to be overlooking is that we are supposed to judge these guys based on their prime.

I've always thought the prime thing is stupid, not to mention it clearly hasn't been a real criteria for some time now. Someone having a great year is not equivalent to someone having a great couple years. Let us take a baseball analogy. You want to know which guy is more likely to get a hit, do you send up the guy that had a season or two where he hit .330 and the rest of the time he hit .250 or do you send up the guy that hit .315 for his 10+ year career. I think the tournament would be much better if to determine the greatest the idea was to sample someones entire career randomly for the matchup, not cherrypick a highpoint and say it is more impressive than years of work. No one gets to the hall of fame in a season so why are we trying to determine the greatest that way? I'd find median performance a much more interesting debate than this primes crap people like to pretend is the criteria.

The fact that Joe was the obvious first opponent for Kurt Angle upon his entrance into TNA also stood out.

To me it stands out that he also lost that first match to a Kurt Angle that was just deemed not in good enough shape to be a part of WWECW and Vince McMahon said was done. That clearly wasn't a prime Angle. A non-prime Angle tapped Joe out to end the vaunted streak. Just how strong was Joe really during prime of his? Yes, he came back and did the same to Angle but this tournament is one and done.

I'd also like to talk a little more about this streak he had. Everyone heard about it at the time but I think there is a fair amount of exaggeration of his dominance going on here. That dominance seems to be the crux of the argument for his prime and it is at best misleading. For instance Joe lost the X-division title twice during his undefeated streak. Shortly before he lost to Angle he had a No Contest with Christian, someone he never beat during the streak. He also did not beat Sting during the streak. If the streak is his prime then Jericho only has to be a little better than Christian to beat him, not on the Rock or Austin's level. If the streak isn't his prime then yes he can beat some of these guys but he can just as easily lose to them as well. Joe was not an unstoppable main eventer by any means. He was "unstoppable" and then he was a main eventer.