ECW Region, Calgary Region, Second Round: (3) Harley Race vs. (14) Rob Van Dam

Discussion in 'ECW Region' started by Tastycles, Apr 24, 2012.

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Who Wins This Match?

  1. Harley Race

  2. Rob Van Dam

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Steamboat Ricky

    Steamboat Ricky WZCW's Living Legend

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    People, do some homework. "Hardcore" wasn't invented in ECW. Harley Race didn't just bare-knuckle brawl and chain wrestle. Watch him massacre Abdullah in Japan:

    [youtube]EWhdBR9Xwzg[/youtube]

    Abdullah, one of the most hardcore and disgusting SOBs ever, just got ANNIHILATED by Race. I mean, it's not even close.

    Sure, RVD will fare better than Abdullah, but those of you who agree that Race is a better wrestler than RVD but are voting RVD based on him having the "hardcore" advantage should REALLY reconsider.

    Harley wins this pretty handily, and the video proves it.
     
    #26
  2. Coco

    Coco Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    The pretty boy who does kicks sounds like an awesome heel gimmick. The fans would surely do more than mutter about it. I think Van Dam would be fine. But if you want to see how Race would fair today, I suggest you look no further than Trevor Murdoch.

    Vince knows what makes good television? Bull crap. Look no further than your hatred of Kane for proof of this. While you may feel comfortable resting on the fact that Harley drew more, it has to be considered that the big leagues didn't give RVD the time of day because management thought he stunk of the indies.

    Okay, so Van Dam was one of the revolutionaries responsible with popularizing the style rather than the sole popularizer of it. We can split hairs over that one, but it doesn't change the original point, which was that RVD went against the groove while Race is quite like his contemporaries.

    I see no real challenge to my points here.
     
    #27
  3. Coco

    Coco Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    RVD wrestles nothing like the fat boy. If Race can't answer the crossbody of Ric fucking Flair, I doubt he'll have an answer for the areal artistry of Van Dam. Also, that kind of hardcore isn't the same kind that Van Dam will employ. Van Dam enjoys playing games with pacing, running his opponent out and throwing bombs before ever introducing the weapons. Once Harley falls to Van Dam's unorthodox offence, he'll have nothing left for the stage in the game when Van Dam brings out the big guns. This isn't a knock against Harley's endurance. But there's only so much shell-shock a man can take.

    It's still Van Dam's to lose.
     
    #28
  4. Peoples_Champ

    Peoples_Champ Bra & Panties match winner & NEW...

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    This is Austin v. Sabu rehashed in a better conversation. I think we can agree RVD was the king of ECW, especially considering his accomplishments outside the organization, it's easy to see he was the cream of the crop.

    Harley Race is Harley fucking Race. 8 time NWA champ. He's probably a bit too early for some fans, so that probably works against him. But still, I feel there's a tendency to overstate Race's legacy amongst some fans. In this region, he's ranked 11th, meaning 40 or so wrestlers were ranked above him by "a panel of experts".

    As far as this particular match goes, RVD has no business winning this match. In WWE, WCW or International rings, RVD puts over Race. But not in an ECW ring. RVD, the king of ECW, takes this one in my opinion. I could go into detail about RVD's high risk tactics, his experience with weapons and his dual title reign. But instead I'll point out what sold this decision for me. Race put over Flair in 83 at Starrcade, the WCW's biggest stage. Race put over Hogan in 87 in Madison Square Garden, the biggest WWE stage. And now, in an ECW ring, Race will put over RVD.

    Rob Van Dam, 27 minutes.
     
    #29
  5. Steamboat Ricky

    Steamboat Ricky WZCW's Living Legend

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    Harley Race beat Giant Baba, founder of AJPW, twice for the NWA World Heavyweight Championship......IN JAPAN.

    I would try a new argument.
     
    #30
  6. The Brain

    The Brain King Of The Ring

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    I'm not following you here. He's ranked 11th so 40 or so wrestlers were ranked ahead of him? Being ranked 11th means exactly ten wrestlers were ranked ahead of him. RVD was ranked 54th which means 53 wrestlers were ranked ahead of him including Race. Am I missing your point here?

    Race put over Flair as he was winding down in his career. By the time he got to Hogan Race was definitely past his prime. Harley Race in his prime would not lose to RVD. It's an ECW rules match in a non ECW territory. I don't think RVD has much of a home field advantage at all.
     
    #31
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  7. Whopperle

    Whopperle Yes!

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    This one really depends on how much you take the ecw rules into account. I guess Harley would win the ECW Title in ECW but RVD is one of the most recognizable names of ECW. Still RVD was a midcarder most of his career, while race was a legitimate main eventer and held the NWA Title 8 times for over 1800 days. Be it ECW rules as it may Race would still go over.
     
    #32
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  8. shattered dreams

    shattered dreams Hexagonal Hedonist

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    How dare you ignore the shotgun corollary. If there is an 8000 pound Grizzly in the ring then it clearly isn't really a Grizzly since they top out at weights less than a 1/4th of that. Not sure why people insist on copying stuff they don't understand. I was leaning towards Race but as of now it is a complete toss up. Someone convince me either way. Still having some trouble believing RVD can overcome the inherent stupidity of being a babyface, which is something Race could likely take advantage of.
     
    #33
  9. Coco

    Coco Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Shattered, you say that as though Van Dam in ECW was a scrupulous do-gooder. The man employed the use of outside interference more than his opponents on many occasions and was as arrogant as they come. If not for the cheers, it'd be hard to look at Van Dam in the late 90s as anything other than a cocky heel. I'm not sure what inherent babyface traits you're talking at, but Van Dam isn't that guy.
     
    #34
  10. Larry

    Larry Getting Noticed By Management

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    I don't think it's much of a conversation really. Harley Race is highly overpraised and over-hyped. Old timers like him don't stand a chance against a guy like RVD. His multi-time NWA championships and overblown facade mean absolutely shit in this scenario, because this ain't WRASSSSLIN, this is ECW, where a fossil like him gets broken in pieces. I don't care where it takes place, unless it's in the 70's or 80's in one of the "good ol' boy" territories, RVD devastates this guy as he is a superior athlete in every way, with a style that is too unorthodox, too fast, too unpredictable, and simply overwhelming for grandpa. RVD in HIS prime can set a pace that would leave Big Wheel Race sucking so much wind that people at ringside would be passing out from oxygen deprivation. Add weapons and the ECW climate and it's a death sentence for Race.

    I personally am pretty tired of old fogies like him being built up as these hot shot world beaters against guys who came later and were superior in every way, simply because they amassed success in a system that allowed it, and as a result have these highly embellished legacy's. Who gives a shit, in 2012, about Harley Race? There isn't one main eventer in the WWE right now that he would beat in his prime without it screaming that wrestling is fake as fuck. Take one look at this guy and tell me you'd believe he could beat any of them. You wouldn't, you're eyes at times are all you need to see the truth. In this case, the truth is that the old doesn't match up to the new, the same way a top of the line 8-track player doesn't hold up to the most basic cassette player, and the top of the line cassette player doesn't hold up against a basic CD player. Excuse me for using inanimate object to make my comparison but it works and you get the point. I'm not saying that this applies in every scenario with every guy from past era's but this is one guy that regardless of his success is over-hyped so much it's ******ed. I've seen his matches and promos, and they are nothing special, in fact he looks ridiculous.
     
    #35
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  11. PsychoBlack

    PsychoBlack Damn it feels good to be a Taylor!!

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    I really don't see why it matters if he looks strong or not. He won for fucks sake. Harley Race is HHHx10 and would pulverise RVD. I honestly can't believe you're still arguing his case
     
    #36
  12. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    You mean that Race who has defeated the likes of Flair, Funk, Dory, and a list of others? That old fogy. I guess if you were running the tournament, you wouldn't allow anybody that wrestled before 1980.
     
    #37
  13. PsychoBlack

    PsychoBlack Damn it feels good to be a Taylor!!

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    UMMMMM NO!!! Harley Race in his prim could have wen to any promotion in the world and dominate. He did it against the like of the Funks Flair Hogan Graham and Bockwinkel and your sitting here telling me RVD whose prime was spent as a mid card champion in an indy promotion would beat him soundly. There should be someone to filter out all these ignorant ass "fuck the old timers" posts. The tournament is about who is the best of all time not of the last 10 years (which RVD STILL doesn't even come into the conversation). Harley Race in his prime was a badass he would have had half of todays competition running out the ring scared shitless. RVD on the other hand is a jobber to the stars on a level slightly above Shelton Benjamin.

    Vote Race
     
    #38
  14. Coco

    Coco Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    So your response to an evidence-based argument is to plug your ears and sing sweet nothings loud enough to block out the sound of my logic? 'Cause that's all this is: Ignorance to support a decision you're determined to make in spite of the evidence.

    A poor argument. RVD all the way.
     
    #39
  15. shattered dreams

    shattered dreams Hexagonal Hedonist

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    At first I was somewhat with you but I think you are massively overplaying your hand. Why are we judging RVD in his prime and Race as a "grandpa?" An interesting part of this debate to me is something I brought up about Samoa Joe. How exactly are we judging RVD's prime if you like to talk about such things? To me RVD was at his physical prime in ECW but that was nowhere near his accomplishment or popularity prime. I actually think some of you arguing for RVD do him a disservice by relying so heavily on the ECW factor. Is it relevant? Yes. Is it the be all, end all? No. There is this tendency to claim a wrestlers prime is the best of all his career at various points combined into one fictitious "prime" that never actually happened. Why not talk about the success RVD has had in a variety of places instead of claiming silly things like a heel has no idea how to use weapons or that an old school wrestler doesn't have the oxygen to last in the ring?

    How does the system not allow success now?

    Cena billed 6'1" 251 pounds, Race billed 6'1" 245 pounds. What exactly am I supposed to be looking for again? Race is bigger than most of the main eventers in WWE now actually. Weight advantage on Orton, bigger than CM Punk and DBD. I see no reason why it would be fake to see him beat Punk or Danielson.

    So you give a weird example then claim it doesn't even hold up but simply finish by saying you don't like the guy because he looks ridiculous. Is this a fashion show or a wrestling match?
     
    #40
  16. The Brain

    The Brain King Of The Ring

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    Terry Funk did pretty well in ECW when he was years past his prime. In fact Terry Funk lost to Harley Race when both were in their primes and decades later Funk was able to hang with the boys in your precious ECW. You know what's really overpraised and overhyped? ECW. Do some flips, use some chairs, and crash through some tables and all of a sudden a bunch of rejects become legends in the eyes of the uninformed.

    This match is taking place in the 70s. At least it is for Race. We are evaluating these guys in their primes. If we were judging this based on today I don't think Andre the Giant would have made it past Animal. You think Race would be sucking wind in his prime. He regularly wrestled sixty minute matches. What about weapons? Did you see the video that was provided earlier? Race is no stranger to weapons and he can more than handle himself in a fight.

    This is tournament is to determine the greatest of all time. Not the greatest in 2012. You're just sounding stupid now.

    Your ingnorance is amusing. In his prime Race could hang with absolutley anybody from today. Race was a man's man. He was legit tough. Most of the pretty boys in wrestling today would be brought to tears against Race. He didn't need to do any fancy flips. A tough guy like Race is more than capable of grounding a showboat like RVD. If this was a gymnastics tournament I'd vote RVD. In wrestling, give me Race.
     
    #41
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  17. IHW

    IHW WZCW's Brent Blaze

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    I want to go with RVD here. I think this would be considered an upset if he wins. Van Dam can use his lethal legs to attack the mid-section of anyone. Van Dam could then capitalize on the ECW Rules and use weapons for moves such as the Van Daminator.

    But, Race is a master inside the ring. He knows exactly what to do and when to do it.

    I will wait, and go back to watch some off Race's matches, to decide for sure.
     
    #42
  18. Alex

    Alex King Of The Wasteland

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    RVD beat Bam Bam Bigelow, a guy arguably bigger than Harley Race and certainly more agile. Bigelow also knew how to wrestle in the hardcore style and was so slouch in the technical department either. RVD still beat him, that shows he could take down Harley Race.
     
    #43
  19. The Brain

    The Brain King Of The Ring

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    How does RVD beating someone inferior to Race make him able to beat Race? That's like saying since Jack Swagger beat Zack Ryder Swagger can beat John Cena.
     
    #44
  20. thatotherguy

    thatotherguy Occasional Pre-Show

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    While I haven't looked through the 5 pages of debate on this that have already sprung up, and I certainly haven't made up my mind yet, I would point out that in this first page alone I'm already wishing both sides would just shut up and leave the debating to people who have arguments that don't include: "you're stupid and have no idea what your talking about and are ignorant and..."

    EDIT: Having now gone through the whole f***ing thread, I can safely say that the only person who has gotten any sympathy from me and would have any chance of swaying my vote either way is...shattered dreams, who also happens to be neutral at this point.
     
    #45
  21. Con T.

    Con T. Yaz ain't enough, I need Fluttershy

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    damn it, see what you made me do?

    Anywho, that may work for a little time; though I really meant more the backstage scene. How would he survive in that kind of climate? Granted, I don't like it as much as anyone, but backstage, RVD would have been BERRIED by the boys for not being real enough. And as much good booking as he could get, I don't see RVD getting over as a legitimate treat. Or would someone like Sting have worked out for the NWA?

    Oh, and RVD is a pretty bad heel. Love the guy, but he's a bad bad heel.



    Allow me to correct myself; Vince used to know what makes good television. And fair, RVD never got the fair shake, until a little later in his career, when he didn't give a fuck, and let himself fuck away his chance at the belt. Remember, the guy's first couple months in the E, he was placed in the main event feud with Angle and Austin. He also got a run against Trips, but those buyrates kinda sagged, did they not? In spite of the outcome, i'm more interested in the buys, because it shows how many people paid to want to see RVD unseat Trips.

    Course, Hunter deserves some blame, and RVD got saddled too much with it. But is isn't as though RVD never got chances.



    In America? Eh, I suppose so. Remember, RVD's style was prevalent around the world. The same fans who love ECW and RVD were the same fans who swapped tapes of Onita blowing himself up in Japan twenty times, and watched Lucha and the like. The fans who cheered RVD were well aware he wasn't much of an originator. Consequently, the Lucha guys get more of the deserved credit. RVD was a guy who brought air attacks to America, but in the blinding light of history, the Lucha guys will, and should, get more of the credit
     
    #46
  22. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    I like Harley Race a lot. I really do. However, name me one match he had besides those against Ric Flair that's memorable? Can you do it? No, you know why? Because Race ruled at the time when the competition wasn't very steep. Flair, Dusty, and Terry Funk... the only names around worth a damn at that time in the NWA. Everyone else pretty much sucked. Basically, what I'm saying is that Harley Race was a big fish in a small pond.

    Now, you could say that about RVD while he was in ECW, and maybe you'd be right, but please... name me one wrestler who came from WCW and ECW after the WWF bought WCW who was able to come over and have the same amount of success as RVD has had in the company? You could argue Booker T, but even then you'd be wrong. RVD's won more titles than Book in WWE, and he was way more over with the audience.

    What happened when Race finally went to the WWF? Oh, that's right... he became an absolute joke. And don't give me the "at the end of his career" crap because Funk and Flair were doing just fine around this time. What's Race's excuse? There is none. As the sport/business evolved, he was left behind. Period. RVD, however, has been able to fit in just fine in whatever company he has stepped foot in. Why? Because he is an incredible professional wrestler and a lot better than most are willing to give him credit for.

    RVD gets labeled a "Spot Monkey" and all this other nonsense, but just because he has high flying moves doesn't mean he can't get technical, or that he can't brawl, or that he can't go out there and have a basic, simplistically good match. Plus, the fact of the matter is... if he was just a "Spot Monkey" and had nothing else to offer, then why was he so over? ECW had plenty of "Spot Monkeys" and none of them were as over as RVD. And you go watch the Invasion period in the WWF.... RVD was getting louder pops than ANYONE in the company. Why is that? It's because not only was he innovative and exciting in the ring, but also because he's one of the most charismatic wrestlers in the history of the business. That is a 100% fact.

    Moreover, just let this sink in for a second: RVD was an ECW Tag Champ, ECW TV Champ, ECW World Champ, WWE Tag Champ, World Tag Champ, WWE Hardcore Champ, IC Champ, WWE Champ, WWE European Champ, Mr. Money in the Bank, and TNA Champ. Can someone name me ANYONE with a title list that competes with this? Seriously, who has won all these titles and accomplishments? The answer is no one.

    So, who has had the better career and who was the better professional wrestler is obvious... it's RVD, for the all the reasons I listed above. Who would win a kayfabe match between the two?

    Harley Race was tough, but he wasn't tough enough to withstand the beating RVD would give him in ECW. RVD would beat Race to the punch every single time, and there's nothing Race could do to RVD that RVD hasn't felt before. RVD has been in there with every type of wrestler... brutal brawlers, high flyers, technical magicians, old school types, etc. and he's always held he own, and I highly doubt there are many wrestlers who have a winning record against RVD. Let alone in ECW, where the guy was pretty much untouchable.

    Harley Race, on the other hand, was a cheating scoundrel who always looked for a short cut to win. To his credit, a lot of the time it worked, but would it in ECW? Absolutely not. Race could pull out every trick in the book, but it wouldn't matter since they only work in regular matches where there are rules involved. This isn't a regular match though... it's ECW rules, and as I said, RVD was UNTOUCHABLE in ECW, so why would I ever believe that someone like Harley Race could beat him in that company? It's pure nonsense to think that.

    RVD is faster, stronger, more athletic, and just as tough and intelligent as Harley Race is. What advantage does Race really have? There isn't a single one, and that's why it makes zero sense to believe that he could beat RVD in ECW. To vote Harley Race you have to be a pure Rob Van Dam and ECW hater; that's the only reason why I can see anyone "justifying" their vote for Race in this match-up, which, no offense, makes your opinion absolutely worthless to me.
     
    #47
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  23. Jack-Hammer

    Jack-Hammer YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!!!!
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    Even though I've never been a huge fan, I voted for RVD to win this one. This was Rob Van Dam in his prime, when he was arguably the most innovative guy inside of a wrestling ring anywhere in the world. And, it's in the environment & promotion that made RVD a god in the eyes of its fans.

    That's not to say that Handsome Harley is just going to roll over and die. Harley was in more than his fair share of bloody brawls and I have no doubt that he'll make RVD pay for his victory with a pint or two of blood at least. I'm also aware of Race's credentials and accomplishments. Race was an 8 time NWA World Heavyweight Champion during a time in which the NWA WHC was THE championship of pro wrestling, and he was a dominant champion for the most part.

    Who will ultimately be seen as the bigger icon? Probably Harley Race. After all, according to most smarks, wrestling just isn't "good" anymore like it was when Harley was around. RVD's extremely athletic, he's fast, he's agile and he's every bit as strong or stronger than Race. Even though RVD was never ECW WHC when ECW was in its prime, he was still its biggest star and proved himself to have hardcore chops. In this environment and against someone with this kind of athleticism, the old "he's a legend" or "he's a wrestling god" arguments aren't going to sway me to Race's side here.
     
    #48
  24. Danger Burger

    Danger Burger Thread Killer

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    I clicked the wrong one!! RVD couldnt lose, not in ECW, evrything he's known for is doubled there! As well as his ability to win!
     
    #49
  25. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    Look, I know this is in ECW, but I don't think that really matters. Actually it does, he's the hardcore wrestler of the two, which means he'd be taking all of the bumps. Remember Foley. Race is more powerful and has had a much better career, he'd have no trouble winning here. We're not talking about a nuanced gimmick where experience is important, we're talking about hitting people with things, something that even the most simple minded could grasp- even Rob Van Dam has achieved it. Harley Race wins because he's better, and because he has the necessary motor abilities to swing an object.
     
    #50

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