ECW Region, Calgary Region, Second Round: (3) Harley Race vs. (14) Rob Van Dam

[Tastycles]

This is a second round match in the ECW Region, Calgary Subregion. It is a standard one on one match held under ECW Rules. It will be held at the Saddledome, Calgary, Alberta, Canada.

#3. Harley Race

Vs.

#14. Rob Van Dam

​

This match takes place one week after round 1.

Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Tough call - in any other region, Race could probably be argued as a sure in... but RVD is the most recognized name associated with ECW, so this gives him severe extra credits.

I'm still going to give it to Race though, RVD's tenure in the World of Extreme showed that he was susceptible to outside interference and he sustained a broken ankle while there. Harley would have been just the guy to exploit both these factors and if he was able to get the ECW Legend Terry Funk to submit to the Indian Deathlock when Funk was in his prime - I'd imagine Rob could be doomed to the same fate.

 

[Coco]

I'm still going to give it to Race though, RVD's tenure in the World of Extreme showed that he was susceptible to outside interference and he sustained a broken ankle while there. Harley would have been just the guy to exploit both these factors and if he was able to get the ECW Legend Terry Funk to submit to the Indian Deathlock when Funk was in his prime - I'd imagine Rob could be doomed to the same fate.

Excuse me? Van Dam was susceptible to outside interference?! Like fuck he was. His matches occasionally drew outside interference from the stable-mates of whoever he was fighting (a member of the Impact Players, one or several Dudleys, an FBI member, etc), but Van Dam at his peak was dominant in spite of this. In fact, he often had Bill Alfonso and Sabu backing him up when push came to shove. So don't pretend that outside interference works against Van Dam. In ECW, it either worked in his favour as a singles competitor or the match ended in a calamitous no-contest. Outside interference would not be the undoing of RVD in ECW.

As for the broken ankle in question, Van Dam finished that match with a victory over Rhino. It the injury didn't cost him the match he sustained it in, it won't be costing him here.

Essentially: You're lying. You're full of shit. The facts do not support your wild speculation.

Van Dam in ECW at his peak is a damn near automatic win to the point where the predictability of it all will induce nausea in most smarks. If you want to take him down here, I suggest choosing a route that doesn't rely Van Dam's kayfabe shortcomings.

Van Dam goes over the world travelled legend. If you'd like the kayfabe explanation, it's because Race suffered a hernia once trying to use a table in a match against Hogan. If 1980s Hulk Hogan was too extreme for Race, Van Dam would eat him for lunch. Far more plausible than your BS ankle injury theory.

Vote: RVD.

 

[Larry]

Well, Coco pulling no punches. This is off to a lively start before the poll is even up. Not only do I agree with Coco I think I'll reinforce the verdict. It's all RVD in this one, ESPECIALLY since it's in the world of extreme. Allow Harley Race all the accolades you wish, I think the old timer gets out hustled and completely discombobulated by the unique offense brought in the ring by RVD. It would be something he's never seen before, a style he's never met, and while the cagey veteran is no dummy, I don't foresee him solving the puzzle here. Realistically you'd have to assume RVD does get his ass kicked here and there when Race catches him in spots, but in the long run I have to go with the thoroughbred in this race, and I think that's RVD. I think this match being under extreme rules DOES help the case of Harley Race because "Who can't swing a chair?" but we all know what RVD does to people with chairs now don't we?

 

[Bernkastel]

I'm leaning towards Rob Van Dam, because of the match stipulation. I guess Van Dam fans can thank the stars that he was placed in this region.

Harley Race was one tough mother, but I doubt he'd have an effective way to counter Van Dam's offense and defense in an hardcore setting. Race was primarily a brawler and a technician; Van Dam would be flying around all over the place, and using his body as a weapon in ways that Race wouldn't have thought possible or practical.

I can see Van Dam overwhelming Race with the Rolling Thunder, the Coast to Coast, and a Five Star though a table for the win.

 

[PsychoBlack]

I see a lot of stupidity in this already. Lets use the Grizzly Bear theory for this one. RVD was at his peak in ECW no doubt, but, simply because he was in his own environment does that mean if he was put inside of the ring with an 8000 pound grizzly bear he would win? Hell no! Race is the proverbial Grizzly Bear of professional wrestling. Just because The match is in ECW does not mean Race loses his advantage of being one of the best to ever lace up the boots.

 

[Coco]

I see a lot of stupidity in this already. Lets use the Grizzly Bear theory for this one. RVD was at his peak in ECW no doubt, but, simply because he was in his own environment does that mean if he was put inside of the ring with an 8000 pound grizzly bear he would win? Hell no! Race is the proverbial Grizzly Bear of professional wrestling. Just because The match is in ECW does not mean Race loses his advantage of being one of the best to ever lace up the boots.

You dragged the stupidity into the thread with you, like the proverbial toilet paper stuck to your shoe. Assuming that if shit were stacked as high as you, it'd wear shoes.

Fact: Harley Race is not a grizzly bear.

Fact: Harley Race, while mildly pudgy from certain angles, is not 8000 pounds. Not even close.

Harley Race is the merest of mortals. He's so mere that he once got a hernia using a table in a wrestling match. Now while the "he can't climb ladders" arguments normally don't hold much weight, Race's own track record calls into his question his ability to handle a late-90s ECW style match with a mortal who's the opposite of mere and is known to dominate that environment.

Thanks for a forty degree post. Better luck next time, dunce-nugget.

Vote RVD.

 

[PsychoBlack]

You dragged the stupidity into the thread with you, like the proverbial toilet paper stuck to your shoe. Assuming that if shit were stacked as high as you, it'd wear shoes.

Fact: Harley Race is not a grizzly bear.

Fact: Harley Race, while mildly pudgy from certain angles, is not 8000 pounds. Not even close.

Harley Race is the merest of mortals. He's so mere that he once got a hernia using a table in a wrestling match. Now while the "he can't climb ladder" arguments normally don't hold much weight, Race's own track record calls into his question his ability to handle a late-90s ECW style match with a mortal who's the opposite of mere and is known to dominate that environment.

Thanks for a forty degree post. Better luck next time, dunce-nugget.

Vote RVD.

Proverbial:that has become a proverb or byword : commonly spoken of <the proverbial smoking gun>

Now that I've gave you a grammar lesson today i can continue to lol at your ignorance excuse me for a moment (hahahahhahahhahahahhahahhahahahhahahahhahahahhahahahahhaahaahha) now that we've gotten that out the way.

I find it funny that you think Harley Race wouldn't be able to wrestle a late 90's ECW style match(even though ECW was at its peak in the early to mid 90's). Race in his prime could have went to any promotion from any time period and been world champion instantly. Rvd during his prime could not win the world title in his "home" promotion.

The fact that you're trying to tell me that RVD goes over Harley Race in a tournament crowning the best wrestler of ALL TIME continues to make me laugh at you (HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAH)

 

[Con T.]

I like RVD; if I'm trying to do the impartial thing, and decide who had more of an impact in the business (I.E. Drawing money), I have to go with Harley Race.

RVD was clearly the best wrestler in ECW, but he also never got pushed as te guy. While I'm sure some people came to see RVD in ECW, I have a hunch more people came to ECW shows for the brand, for being part of the ECW name. He had the chance to prove himself a draw in WWE when he got the strap, and started the whole ECW reboot. Of course, that went up in smoke, and I'm sorry I had to use such a cliche, cliche line. RVD never did great business, while Harley was all about good business, and being champion, during a time when being NWA champion meant you were going to draw the most money to wherever you go.

Also, Coco, you point to a point in the Piper debate, talking about how Punk looks at Piper as his role model. Triple H did his damndest to be Harley Race, and took pretty much everything down to his 'stache from Harley. RVD had his own impact on wrestling, I just don't know if I can say it's bigger than Harley

 

[Coco]

Proverbial:that has become a proverb or byword : commonly spoken of <the proverbial smoking gun>

Canadians speak of toilet paper being stuck to the bottom of does regularly. But we certainly don't speak of 8000 pound grizzlies. If you're going to post in the Canadian regions, you might want to learn the language.

I find it funny that you think Harley Race wouldn't be able to wrestle a late 90's ECW style match(even though ECW was at its peak in the early to mid 90's). Race in his prime could have went to any promotion from any time period and been world champion instantly. Rvd during his prime could not win the world title in his "home" promotion.

The television title under Van Dam's reign was regarded as being above the world title while the world title languished on a more traditional wrestler for far too long. That happening to the world title is considered one of Paul Heyman's greatest creative missteps. In an anti-mainstream promotion like ECW, Race would have been out of place. To the fans, his kind was the enemy. The old timers of history had no place in ECW unless they could get with the program, start giving to the present, and put people over. Either Race got with the program and put RVD over or he has no place in ECW at its peak. That's how this works.

The fact that you're trying to tell me that RVD goes over Harley Race in a tournament crowning the best wrestler of ALL TIME continues to make me laugh at you (HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAH)

I've heard fuck all substance in Race's favour so far. I've heard that he would exploit an injury that RVD got in a match he won and that interference has somehow hindered RVD in ECW. Both of these are nonsensical arguments. Putting aside the lies, is there any substance to your claims of greatness? Or are you just blindly following the conventional wisdom?

 

[Coco]

I like RVD; if I'm trying to do the impartial thing, and decide who had more of an impact in the business (I.E. Drawing money), I have to go with Harley Race.

RVD was clearly the best wrestler in ECW, but he also never got pushed as te guy. While I'm sure some people came to see RVD in ECW, I have a hunch more people came to ECW shows for the brand, for being part of the ECW name. He had the chance to prove himself a draw in WWE when he got the strap, and started the whole ECW reboot. Of course, that went up in smoke, and I'm sorry I had to use such a cliche, cliche line. RVD never did great business, while Harley was all about good business, and being champion, during a time when being NWA champion meant you were going to draw the most money to wherever you go.

I personally believe some of these debates need to be taken out of the context of the times and companies the respective workers competed in to make things clearer. For example, if we look at Roddy Piper in James Storm's era or Storm in Piper's era, you have a far more even match as Piper would just be some scrawny guy in an industry with an anti-smark bias in 2012 and James Storm would have been a southern god in late 80s NWA. These debates get far more interesting when you throw out what's on paper and look at the actual talent involved. I think Race's "success" is as much a product of circumstance as RVD's inability to draw is a result of never getting a chance when he should have been given just that (200-2003, when Rock and Austin were on the way out and the WWE needed a top face that people gravitated to). Now in some debates, looking at who draws works because Andre is always a special talent and Bulldog never is. But here, we need to take these men out of the context of their times and look at the talents involved: One innovator who in the late 90s popularized in the United Staes the style we'd later love as that of the X-Division and even certain Shawn Michaels new millennium classics, and the other a dime-a-dozen torch-bearer for tradition.

One of these men is a special talent. The other is Harley Race.

 

[The Gribbler]

I think race could get physical with the best of them. In an ECW match I think the playing field is leveled with Races place in history I think higher up than Van Dam but the setting here being in favor of RVD.

Overall I cannot justify putting RVD above Harley Race in my list of all time superstars so I am going with Race.

Race to Advance.

 

[The Brain]

I’m voting Harley Race. I don’t mean to diminish the accomplishments of Rob Van Dam (ok I do a little bit because I want Race to win) but we all know ECW was a minor league promotion. Here we have a major league hall of famer against the king of Triple A. I’ll take the major leaguer. Harley Race was a tough customer. Don’t make the mistake of looking at his WWF career and assume he couldn’t handle himself in a fight. In his prime he could hold his own with anybody. Hell, he could more than hold his own. He could handle anybody.

Allow Harley Race all the accolades you wish, I think the old timer gets out hustled and completely discombobulated by the unique offense brought in the ring by RVD. It would be something he's never seen before, a style he's never met, and while the cagey veteran is no dummy, I don't foresee him solving the puzzle here.

I think just the opposite. RVD was able to get away with such an unorthodox style against less experienced opponents. If he throws a chair to Race, Race isn’t going to just catch it and hold it waiting to get kicked. He’s going to throw it back in Van Dam’s face. When RVD does his shoulder thrusts in the corner and then does that pointless backflip before the third one Race will greet him with a stiff knee when he comes back for the third. Race isn’t going to care about some acrobatic display like most of the ECW opponents did. He’s not looking to get oohs and aahs out of the crowd. He’s looking to punish his opponent to get the win. Race is going to take advantage of RVD’s wasted movement and ground him. If Race can keep it on the mat he’s going to win the match. RVD’s reckless style leaves him prone to make a mistake and when he does Race will capitalize.

 

[Coco]

I think race could get physical with the best of them.

You think? 'Cause I know otherwise. I know Race suffered a hernia because a Hulk Hogan match got too physical for him. Really, for all this talk of how physical he can be, how much of a force can he be when he suffers a fate like that?

RVD, on the other hand? Two major injuries in his career, but he's still able to wrestle like a twenty year old because the man knows how to warm up and preserve his body in a way that Race never could. You've seen Van Dam stretch, right? That's not just him showing off. He knows how to treat his body right so he can continue being physical at that level Race never could.

Vote: RVD.

 

[The Gribbler]

You think? 'Cause I know otherwise. I know Race suffered a hernia because a Hulk Hogan match got too physical for him. Really, for all this talk of how physical he can be, how much of a force can he be when he suffers a fate like that?

RVD, on the other hand? Two major injuries in his career, but he's still able to wrestle like a twenty year old because the man knows how to warm up and preserve his body in a way that Race never could. You've seen Van Dam stretch, right? That's not just him showing off. He knows how to treat his body right so he can continue being physical at that level Race never could.

Vote: RVD.

Hmmm... but some how being an acrobatic SpotMonkey never translated to being a good wrestler when I watched him. I liked Van Dam as IC champion but I never really bought him any higher than that.

And just about every wrestler I have ever heard or read about talking about Race would talk about that a tough as nails old prick he was.

Maybe their just blowing smoke but everyone says the same thing.

 

[Coco]

I think just the opposite. RVD was able to get away with such an unorthodox style against less experienced opponents. If he throws a chair to Race, Race isn’t going to just catch it and hold it waiting to get kicked. He’s going to throw it back in Van Dam’s face.

I hear that a lot. But the alleged modern day Race, Triple H, sure has taken many a Van Daminator. If he can't adapt to Van Dam's style, what hope does Race have? And all those times Triple H only beat Van Dam because of Evolution? Well if Race plays a similar numbers game, Alfonso and Sabu even the score. In this evironment, Van Dam gets the win over Triple H-lite that he always looked to be on the verge of getting against the real thing. Interference won't stop Van Dam here. Race eats chair just like the supposed Cerebral Assassin always did.

When RVD does his shoulder thrusts in the corner and then does that pointless backflip before the third one Race will greet him with a stiff knee when he comes back for the third.

If that's possible, why didn't the modern Triple H fare as well against Van Dam's offence?

Right: Because it's not possible.

Race isn’t going to care about some acrobatic display like most of the ECW opponents did.

His opponents didn't care about acrobatic display. They were simply discombobulated by Van Dam's stiff hits and unorthodox style.

Vote: RVD.

 

[Coco]

Hmmm... but some how being an acrobatic SpotMonkey never translated to being a good wrestler when I watched him. I liked Van Dam as IC champion but I never really bought him any higher than that.

You never bought him as any higher because Vince McMahon never put any effort into selling him as more.

Also, a good wrestler tells a story and gets the crowd involved. Van Dam knows damn well how to generate sympathy for the face comebacks which have become a staple of modern day mainstream wrestling. He understand face psychology and employs his underrated in-ring charisma as well as the best of them. He's a good wrestler.

And just about every wrestler I have ever heard or read about talking about Race would talk about that a tough as nails old prick he was.

Fair enough. Who's walking around calling RVD soft? I've heard stories about RVD punking out Taz backstage and taping his fists and making Triple H run for cover. He's no pushover. This old school tough guy stuff doesn't scare anyone in the RVD camp.

Vote: RVD.

 

[The Brain]

I hear that a lot. But the alleged modern day Race, Triple H, sure has taken many a Van Daminator. If he can't adapt to Van Dam's style, what hope does Race have? And all those times Triple H only beat Van Dam because of Evolution? Well if Race plays a similar numbers game, Alfonso and Sabu even the score. In this evironment, Van Dam gets the win over Triple H-lite that he always looked to be on the verge of getting against the real thing. Interference won't stop Van Dam here. Race eats chair just like the supposed Cerebral Assassin always did.


If that's possible, why didn't the modern Triple H fare as well against Van Dam's offence?

Right: Because it's not possible.

His opponents didn't care about acrobatic display. They were simply discombobulated by Van Dam's stiff hits and unorthodox style.

Vote: RVD.

First of all, it may be more accurate to describe Triple H as Harly Race-lite than Harley Race as Triple H-lite. You make it sound like RVD had such success against Triple H. You're going to have to refresh my memory. I don't remember RVD beating Triple H but I do remember Triple H beating RVD. If you want to compare Harley Race to Triple H (which is a good comparison) then Race beats RVD just like Triple H did.

 

[The Gribbler]

You never bought him as any higher because Vince McMahon never put any effort into selling him as more.

Also, a good wrestler tells a story and gets the crowd involved. Van Dam knows damn well how to generate sympathy for the face comebacks which have become a staple of modern day mainstream wrestling. He understand face psychology and employs his underrated in-ring charisma as well as the best of them. He's a good wrestler.


Fair enough. Who's walking around calling RVD soft? I've heard stories about RVD punking out Taz backstage and taping his fists and making Triple H run for cover. He's no pushover. This old school tough guy stuff doesn't scare anyone in the RVD camp.

Vote: RVD.

Ill give you that RVD was certainly not a pushover, some of the things that he has done to his body prove he can take a beating.

I am still picking Race to walk out though. I think some of that Charisma you're talking about might well come back to bite RVD in the arse. When his 'bamboozling' offence has race in the middle of the ring and primed for a frog splash and he takes ten minutes of crowd pandering before making the jump, no way Race lets RVD finish the move.

 

[Coco]

First of all, it may be more accurate to describe Triple H as Harly Race-lite than Harley Race as Triple H-lite. You make it sound like RVD had such success against Triple H. You're going to have to refresh my memory. I don't remember RVD beating Triple H but I do remember Triple H beating RVD. If you want to compare Harley Race to Triple H (which is a good comparison) then Race beats RVD just like Triple H did.

I'll let you refresh my memory, mister stuck-in-the-past pseudo-historian. When has Triple H ever looked strong against RVD? Raw leading into Unforgiven 2002? RVD triumphs over Triple H in a tag match and is built as Triple H's worst nightmare. Unforgiven? RVD is booked as the better man but is thwarted by Flair interference, interference that would be negated in ECW by the presence of Sabu and Alfonso. Same story in the lumberjack match before No Mercy. Survivor Series sees Van Dam dominate Triple H in the Elimination Chamber. In a title match in the summer of 2003 on Raw, Eric Bischoff needs to restart the match multiple times and change the stipulation so that Evolution can help Triple H retain his belt in a match RVD had won. Alfonso and Sabu would negate such an advantage there as well.

So refresh my memory. When was RVD not booked as the better man against Triple H?

 

[Coco]

Ill give you that RVD was certainly not a pushover, some of the things that he has done to his body prove he can take a beating.

I am still picking Race to walk out though. I think some of that Charisma you're talking about might well come back to bite RVD in the arse. When his 'bamboozling' offence has race in the middle of the ring and primed for a frog splash and he takes ten minutes of crowd pandering before making the jump, no way Race lets RVD finish the move.

Because RVD's never landed the frog splash on an intelligent competitor before? Are Ric Flair, Triple H, Steve Austin, Kurt Angle, Edge, and Chris Jericho not intelligent? Your argument gets more and more laughable.

As for charisma biting RVD on the backside, Ric Flair was known for taunting during his matches and oozing charisma. But he's bested Race in big matches before. So has Hulk Hogan. Yes, Race loses to charismatic people. As if there was any doubt.

Foolish arguments all around from the Race people.

 

[The Brain]

I'll let you refresh my memory, mister stuck-in-the-past pseudo-historian. When has Triple H ever looked strong against RVD? Raw leading into Unforgiven 2002? RVD triumphs over Triple H in a tag match and is built as Triple H's worst nightmare. Unforgiven? RVD is booked as the better man but is thwarted by Flair interference, interference that would be negated in ECW by the presence of Sabu and Alfonso. Same story in the lumberjack match before No Mercy. Survivor Series sees Van Dam dominate Triple H in the Elimination Chamber. In a title match in the summer of 2003 on Raw, Eric Bischoff needs to restart the match multiple times and change the stipulation so that Evolution can help Triple H retain his belt in a match RVD had won. Alfonso and Sabu would negate such an advantage there as well.

So refresh my memory. When was RVD not booked as the better man against Triple H?

So I'm the stuck in the past pseudo-historian? I don't remember random Raw matches from 2002 and 2003. Thank you for refreshing my memory. Although you didn't point out when RVD actually beat Triple H in a one on one match. So when was RVD not booked as the better man against Triple H? All those times where Triple H beat him. Winning is all that matters here. If it makes you feel better RVD can dazzle us all with his high flying before getting pinned. He'll look good in defeat but he will be defeated. By the way, this match is against Harley Race not Triple H.

Foolish arguments all around from the Race people.

As opposed to your argument about how Race was injured in one match against Hogan when Race was well past his prime

 

[Coco]

So I'm the stuck in the past pseudo-historian? I don't remember random Raw matches from 2002 and 2003. Thank you for refreshing my memory. Although you didn't point out when RVD actually beat Triple H in a one on one match. So when was RVD not booked as the better man against Triple H? All those times where Triple H beat him. Winning is all that matters here. If it makes you feel better RVD can dazzle us all with his high flying before getting pinned. He'll look good in defeat but he will be defeated. By the way, this match is against Harley Race not Triple H.

RVD was the better man. He had Triple H's number.

And I have to use some evidence of RVD being better than a man comparable to Race, being a fair man and all. Good luck making an evidence-based argument for Flair being better than someone of RVD's ilk.

As opposed to your argument about how Race was injured in one match against Hogan when Race was well past his prime

Bad things happen when Race comes into contact with tables. Oh yes they do.

 

[GI Cake]

I have never been a fan of RVD or Harley Race, but RVD is taking this one in being in ECW. Race has a legacy of being one of the toughest guys in Professional Wrestling, but never has he been in the realm of Hardcore Wrestling. RVD has been the top star of ECW, and the WWE. RVD has the unique ability to use weapons into his move-set with ease.

 

[Con T.]

Coco, I'm not one for the whole quote for quote.... Thing, shall we say. Too much text, not enough pretty pictures and such. So let ms try and see if I get your argument down as much as possible;

A. Race gets credit for his era, whereas in this era, he would flop. We can dispute this until the cows come home, but we have to go by what we have. If the Undertaker existed in Gotch's era, he'd either use his size to beat everyone's shooting, or get boo'ed out of the building for such a horrendous gimmick. RVD may have excelled in Harley's time, or maybe people would have shat on him for not being "real".


I don't buy the "real" angle, but it is there. Fuck, even Flair had some sort of a legitimate background, least we think so anyway. RVD, unfortunately, falls victim to the fact that 99% of rasslin fans during Harley's time were just a tad unrefined. Perhaps not necessarily fair, but do you see RVD lasting long in " the biz", with everyone muttering about the pretty boy doing kicks and such?


2. Part of Race being such a big draw is a result of his era, and that he's a product of his time. Again, entirely possible, but we have what we have. Harley gets the benefit of being part of a time where wrestlers can go elsewhere when they get stale. RVD had the backing of some of he finest booking and television minds in the history of wrestling. Paul Heyman was, once, a great Booker, and Vince knows what makes good tv. Thus, RVD had plenty of advantages to be as big a star in wrestling, and really, had more advantages than Harley.

Still, Harley drew more.

3. RVD had more of an impact, and was quite special. Again, no arguing that he was special, but I want to note your point about the X Division and such. Don't you think that also had plenty to do with the Cruiserweights and Lucha one found during that era? Granted, Paul brought those men in, and they worked with Rob... Some of them, at least. But can't we argue that Rey Rey and his boyz had as much a say in the influx of aerial attacks in American wrestling as RVD did?

Again, i'm quite sorry if you demand quote for quote. And if I read your arguments wrong