ECW Dallas: Round 1, Match 7: #9 Bruno Sammartino vs. #56 Takuya Sugi

[Shocky]

The following match takes place in the ECW Region under Extreme Rules from Dallas, TX.

#9 Bruno Sammartino

vs.

#56
Takuya Sugi

 

[Gelgarin]

Bruno goes out in round one, no questions asked.

Bruno is slow, one dimensional and not only has he never wrestled a hardcore match in his life, but he harbours a deep resentment against the hardcore style in general.
In a typical match, Bruno might have a chance, but in ECW, I'd take the Blue Meanie over Bruno.

Bruno's not fighting The blue Meanie though. He's fighting a Japanese talent who, whilst having earned no love from yours truly, has made a living off of doing variations of the 450 and the Shooting Star Press. Blazer is going to have the crowd 100% behind him. He's got a massive speed and technical advantage over Bruno. He's had hard core experience. The list goes on.

The only edge Bruno had is in terms of brawling ability, and throwing punches is noticeably less effective than throwing kendo sticks. Bruno doesn't win here.

 

[klunderbunker]

Bruno was a great brawler, but this isn't in New England. The problem with Bruno is that he was only proven in one part of the country. However, no one but a handful of people know who his opponent is and that's what's going to beat him. Bruno seems like someone that would fit into a hardcore atmosphere very well. If you can handle a New York crowd, you can handle anythign. Bruno on experience in the big matches, and the fact that eventually the small guy is goingt o get caught, and the bear hug ends it.

 

[NSL]

While I understand Gelgarin's point on Sugi, I'm still voting for Bruno. Bruno may not be a "hardcore" wrestler, but I don't see anything on Sugi that says he's great with a weapon either.

He'll probably get some nice moves in, but he's bound to miss once, and then Bruno will pick him up and squeeze him like a grapefruit for the win. No matter who the winner is, chances are they'll go over the Daniels/Brisco winner, and then end up losing to Booker in the semi-finals for this bracket.

 

[Gelgarin]

Bruno was a great brawler, but this isn't in New England. The problem with Bruno is that he was only proven in one part of the country. However, no one but a handful of people know who his opponent is and that's what's going to beat him. Bruno seems like someone that would fit into a hardcore atmosphere very well. If you can handle a New York crowd, you can handle anythign. Bruno on experience in the big matches, and the fact that eventually the small guy is goingt o get caught, and the bear hug ends it.

I would imaging that there are more people alive today who are familiar with Blazer than there are with Bruno.
With regards to 'big match experience', I'm not sure that the first round, in tournament containing hundreds of performers, qualifies as a big match. If this was a group final then I'd accept your point, but it isn't.

Bruno travelled more than you give him credit for, but you miss a couple of points. For a start, Bruno was a fan favourite for almost all his career. After Buddy Rogers discovered that nobody was going to pay money to watch him suck, he pretended to have a heart attack, and Vince Sr. was forced to find a new top face at short notice.

Bruno was strong, had the look and would do what he was told without ego getting in the way, so he got a huge face push right at the start of his career. Bruno getting booed was a rare sight to see, and given his monster babyface status, it's reasonable to assume that it would have a negative affect on his performance.

Any ECW crowd is going to be super into Blazer. He's the fastest, most showy high flyer in the entire professional wrestling world. He's the Japanese equivalent of Jack Evans, except he doesn't suck that badly. ECW fans love guys like that almost as much as they love flaming barbed wire. What they don't like is big, slow guys who aren't going to impress them. Which Bruno isn't.

He also has more experience of unfamiliar settings that Bruno. Sugi has wrestled in Toryumon, Michinoku Pro, New Japan, All Japan, Zero-1 and has made appearance in the Gate, most of the Japanese indy scene, and I believe BIG JAPAN.

So that's experience against American style workers. Inoki strong style workers. High flyers. Technicians and hardcore. (The last one being pretty relevant here.

Last but not least, not only has Bruno never wrestled a hardcore match before, he's also got absolutely no experience with high-flyers. That type of wrestling had never been seen in Bruno's day, and the big man is going to have no clue how to deal with it. In contrast, Blazer has wrestled more than his fair share of big men. He's done the typical "Monster V Small Guy" feud in HUSTLE, when he was fighting the Monster Army. He was the top face in that feud, and scored wins over a lot of guys of similar proportions to Sammartino.

Bruno's offence is utterly dependent on his ability to brawl and use power moves. Other than that, he's very slow. And a slow brawler is going to get into trouble when he's fighting one of the fastest wrestlers in the world.

Saying this might upset Irish a little, but this big guy isn't automatically going to win against a smaller one. In this case, the big guy is a fish out of water, infront of a hostile crowd in unfamiliar surroundings against an opponent he hasn't the first clue how to deal with.

A vote for Bruno is a vote based on name recognition alone. Blazer wins.

 

[Shadowmancer]

Yeah it is a shame that Bruno got the ECW region, because of that he will go out in this round. And I am a big supporter of having the Old school show through to be a good run, unfortunately it ain't Bruno. The hatred of Hardcore and most of Modern Wrestling full stop means that Bruno won't have the ability to get in there and get the job done. If he managed to catch Sugi in the Bearhug then it is possible for Bruno to win, but within the context of the match type and the fact that it is out of the Northeast which is one of the most important regions in wrestling history.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

It's tough in matchups like these when you have high-flyers against brawlers to decide. I admit Bruno was slow and one-dimensonial but I believe he can ground Sugi at some point and then he could use his style to wear him down. I'll take Bruno but he may not survive Round 2.

 

[jmt225]

Takuya Sugi is an unbelievable high flyer; one of the most impressive this business has ever seen. But come on. Bruno is a legend, and legit. He would absolutely DESTROY Takuya Sugi; it wouldn't matter what ring it was in. Bruno has the strength, experience, and he would just manhandle the little dude. I don't know how anyone could believe any different.

Bruno is slow, one dimensional

One dimensional? What, because he didn't jump around and do a bunch of high spots, that makes him one dimensional? I'm sorry but a one dimensional wrestler doesn't draw half as much as Bruno drew in his career. I guess Hulk Hogan was one dimensional too, huh?

and not only has he never wrestled a hardcore match in his life, but he harbours a deep resentment against the hardcore style in general.

Come on now Gelgarin. I respect the hell out of you as a poster. In fact, your posts so far in the Danielson/Cena thread are, by a mile, the best posts thus far in this tournament, in my opinion. But you couldn't be more wrong in this post. Bruno's never wrestled a hardcore match? Dude, Bruno Sammartino vs. Larry Zbyszko at Showdown at Shea is one of the greatest, most important matches in wrestling history. And that match was conducted in a STEEL CAGE. Wouldn't you consider a Steel Cage match part of the 'hardcore environment'?

Also, Lou Thesz didn't wrestle many hardcore matches in his day, but I bet you wouldn't vote for Takuya Sugi over him, would you?

In a typical match, Bruno might have a chance, but in ECW, I'd take the Blue Meanie over Bruno.

Watch his feud with Larry Zbyszko, who's been in TONS of brawls mind you, and come out with that same opinion.

Bruno's not fighting The blue Meanie though. He's fighting a Japanese talent who, whilst having earned no love from yours truly, has made a living off of doing variations of the 450 and the Shooting Star Press. Blazer is going to have the crowd 100% behind him. He's got a massive speed and technical advantage over Bruno. He's had hard core experience. The list goes on.

Yeah and he's about half of Bruno's size. All that flippy shit won't matter when Bruno is catching him every single time he tries it. And once Bruno gets his hands on the little fucker, there's no escape for Sugi.

Also, you're underestimating how much ECW fans loved true legends like Bruno.

The only edge Bruno had is in terms of brawling ability, and throwing punches is noticeably less effective than throwing kendo sticks. Bruno doesn't win here.

I beg the differ. Not only would he win in real life, but I guarantee he will win in this tournament at well. Too many posters here have never heard of Takuya Sugi, and I'm sure every poster knows Sammartino as one of the biggest legends this sport has ever seen. A bigger legend and better wrestler then not only guys like Takuya Sugi, but guys like Lou Thez as well.

 

[Shocky]

Who cares if Bruno was one dimensional (which I think is a completely loaded and BS statement on my own, ask Larry Zybsko about Bruno and 1-Dimensional, end rant). Sugi is simply a gnat, that will get swatted. He can hit and run all he wants, but all it takes is for him to get caught by Sammartino, and put in the bearhug, and it's elementary from there. Bruno moves on, and should easily.

 

[Gelgarin]

Takuya Sugi is an unbelievable high flyer; one of the most impressive this business has ever seen.

Takuya Sugi is a literal personification of everything that is wrong with the luchador style. Nevertheless, he still wins.

But come on. Bruno is a legend,

This makes you win matches how?

and legit.

According to most of the guys from his era, he really wasn't.

He would absolutely DESTROY Takuya Sugi, it wouldn't matter what ring it was in.

I disagree. My above post spells out pretty clearly why, so I won't waste time repeating myself.

Bruno has the strength

Sugi has speed. Counterpoint successful.

experience,

Experience? During his prime? When he was winning the most consistently, Bruno had comparably little experience. Like a said before, he wasn't an established talent before he got pushed, so if you take him during his first title reign, then he certainly doesn't get many points for experience.

Additionally, as I (once again) quite clearly explained, Bruno's experiance is irrelevant. All he has experiencewith is other guys of his weight class, in old school straight wrestling contests. As the swaves of ECW haters on this forum love to remind people, that skill set quite simply didn't come into play in ECW.

He's never wrestled ECW style. He's never wrestled Blazer's style. Blazer has done both, which is why he wins.

and he would just manhandle the little dude. I don't know how anyone could believe any different.

Because, in my darker moments, I occasionally acknowledge that a wrestlers size (for the record, Bruno was only 5'10) does not correlate to his ability. The difference between Blazer and Bruno is roughly the same as that between Khali and Stone Cold. If I showed up insisting that Khali could just throw Austin around, and kept parroting that all the Punjabi nightmare would have to do would be to lock in the vice grip once, then I'd get a pile of red rep, and people would stop telling me how much they respect me. This is the same, except Blazer is Japanese, and has every external factor working to his advantage.

One dimensional? What, because he didn't jump around and do a bunch of high spots, that makes him one dimensional?

Yes, because I'm chronically ******ed.

I'm sorry but a one dimensional wrestler doesn't draw half as much as Bruno drew in his career. I guess Hulk Hogan was one dimensional too, huh?

How the fuck does this correlate? No Hogan wasn't one dimensional, watching Hogan is pretty good evidence of that.

Come on now Gelgarin. I respect the hell out of you as a poster. In fact, your posts so far in the Danielson/Cena thread are, by a mile, the best posts thus far in this tournament, in my opinion.

I wish people would stop saying this to me. I'm a big boy, I can handle opposition, especially when I'm openly supporting guys I don't like very much for the sake of a debate.

But you couldn't be more wrong in this post. Bruno's never wrestled a hardcore match? Dude, Bruno Sammartino vs. Larry Zbyszko at Showdown at Shea is one of the greatest, most important matches in wrestling history. And that match was conducted in a STEEL CAGE. Wouldn't you consider a Steel Cage match part of the 'hardcore environment'?

As a matte rof fact I wouldn't, given that they're totally different matches with nothing in common. A hardcore match has weapons, a steel cage match has a picket fence round the ring. Incidently, you'd have done better confronting me with Santana & Samartino vs Savage & Adonis, since the steel cage came into play a little more in that match.

Incidently, evn id you 'do' think a cage match and a hardcore match are the same thing, then Sammartino has had a grand total of four in his entire career. Compare that to a tour with BIG JAPAN (If you're unfamiliar, it's like ECW, but for the truly demented) and it's meaningless.

Also, Lou Thesz didn't wrestle many hardcore matches in his day, but I bet you wouldn't vote for Takuya Sugi over him, would you?

In a hardcore match? Yes. Thesz goes out the second he hits any gimmick match outside of iron-man, submission of similar. I'm not a hypocrite thankyou.

Watch his feud with Larry Zbyszko, who's been in TONS of brawls mind you, and come out with that same opinion.

Been there, done that. Given that Zbyszko was another guy of Bruno's style and weight class, it doesn't really counter my point. If Bruno was fighting in familiar circumstances then I'd give him all the credit he's due, but he's not. And I'm not going to vote him through on size alone.

Yeah and he's about half of Bruno's size. All that flippy shit won't matter when Bruno is catching him every single time he tries it And once Bruno gets his hands on the little fucker, there's no escape for Sugi.

Zzzzzzzz.

I'm pretty sure we've been round this before, and saying things like "flippy shit" doesn't make you sound more convincing.

Also, you're underestimating how much ECW fans loved true legends like Bruno.

Please. It'd be like Jerry Lawler showing up. Bruno embodied everything that the ECW crowd professed not to like, and frequently criticized the company. I don't think he'd get a warm welcome. Sugi does an inverted shooting star press that they're eating out of the palm of his hands.

I beg the differ. Not only would he win in real life,

Well that's a good reason to vote for him. Should he give Thesz the award now or later?

but I guarantee he will win in this tournament at well. Too many posters here have never heard of Takuya Sugi, and I'm sure every poster knows Sammartino as one of the biggest legends this sport has ever seen.

Well if you're entire objective is to vote with the masses then this might matter, but in the context of a debate, it doesn't matter.

A bigger legend and better wrestler then not only guys like Takuya Sugi, but guys like Lou Thez as well.

I'm going to assume that this way a joke, on account of you not being an idiot.

 

[Tastycles]

When people discuss ECW, they always focus on the fact that it was hardcore, but it was also the only place in North America where high flyers could do well.

Sammartino is a powerhouse, but he famously never really acheived much outside of the WWWF's back yard, and this isn't where this match will be held. Sammartino is out of his element here, and unlike someone like Thesz, he never really tried to adapt to other settings. I don't like Sugi, but I do think that he would be far more comfortable here than Bruno, and could sneak a win.

I'm going Sugi, but I don't think I'd vote for him in any other circumstance.

 

[justinsayne]

WTF is going on here, people are seriously suggesting that Bruno gets knocked out by some scrawny lil' Japenese nobody, Bruno is a fucking legend, and he got that Legend status by beating the best, Bruno is the longest reining WWWF champion ever, he won the belt in like 48 seconds and held it for like 8 fucking years, as far as this match being in ECW that don't mean shit, not every fucking match in ECW was a weapons filled bloodbatch, Bruno would squash this little shit in seconds, why? because he's simply better

 

[IrishCanadian25]

<takes a deep breath>

J-J-Jus...

<dude, do it. say it.>

Justin's r-r-rrrr

<come on, that's it...>

Justin's right. May not happen often, but come on. Sammartino losing to a Japanese wrestler NOT named Inoki or Muta? Not happening.

Now, Sammartino isn't going to win the ECW region. Shittiest possible draw for him. But ECW wasn't all about Hardcore, NOR was it all about Lucha. Mat wrestlers did well too, and the fans appreciated it. I think Sammartino will hit too many Irish-whip shoulder blocks and rest holds to get over with the crowd, but he's so seasoned and talented, he won't go down to a Japanese wrestler who is pretty far down on the depth chart.

Voting Bruno.

 

[NSL]

Mat wrestlers did well too, and the fans appreciated it.

Exactly. I was a huge ECW fan, and it was mostly for the wrestlers, not the guys that replied on weapons. Bruno would be successful because he's smart and strong. No way he loses.

The worst that happens to him here is he gets booed by Hat Guy.

 

[Theo Mays]

Sugi will run around and try to play keep away from Bruno, but once Bruno catches him it is over from there. He will catch the little bugger and never let him back in the wild and end the match.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

In my opinion, to suggest that Sammartino would crush Sugi in ECW is ludicrous. And, why do people keep on bringing up size? Let me ask you this: in a fight, would you take Butterbean over Mayweather, Jr.? I sure as hell wouldn't. Sammartino may be twice the size, but he is nowhere near as fast as Sugi. Furthermore, Sugi has the edge of endurance over Sammartino. And, given the nature of ECW fans, they would probably boo Sammartino out of the arena if they knew all that he stood for. Hell, given Sammartino's bitching about the current state of wrestling, he'd probably throw his hands up in disgust and forfeit the match.

So, I'm going with Sugi. If this match were in the 1960s or the 1970s, the Sammartino would probably crush Sugi. But, in ECW, Sammartino would be a fish out of water, and it would show.

 

[jmt225]

Takuya Sugi is a literal personification of everything that is wrong with the luchador style.

What I meant by my statement was that out of every "high-flyer" the business has seen, Takuya Sugi definitely ranks up there as pulling off some of the most impressive moves ever seen in a wrestling ring,

This makes you win matches how?

Kayfabe is not the only reason you need to vote for someone, even though Kayfabe wise, Bruno would still kick Sugi's ass.

According to most of the guys from his era, he really wasn't.

Like who? I've heard quite the opposite. Even the Iron Sheik sings Bruno's praises.

I disagree. My above post spells out pretty clearly why, so I won't waste time repeating myself.

Actually, it didn't and I explained why myself.

Sugi has speed. Counterpoint successful.

But his speed doesn't lead to devastation, like Bruno's power does.

Experience? During his prime? When he was winning the most consistently, Bruno had comparably little experience. Like a said before, he wasn't an established talent before he got pushed, so if you take him during his first title reign, then he certainly doesn't get many points for experience.

A first title reign that lasted eight fucking years. Eight years of wrestling isn't experience? Especially eight years back in those days when the wrestlers worked constantly, and the champs had to work LONG matches nearly every single night.

Additionally, as I (once again) quite clearly explained, Bruno's experiance is irrelevant. All he has experiencewith is other guys of his weight class, in old school straight wrestling contests. As the swaves of ECW haters on this forum love to remind people, that skill set quite simply didn't come into play in ECW.

Name one high flyer in ECW that beat someone like Taz or Mike Awesome while in the company. Please.

He's never wrestled ECW style. He's never wrestled Blazer's style. Blazer has done both, which is why he wins.

Not exactly a good reason to win. Just because Sugi has wrestled hardcore matches against mostly nobodies, doesn't automatically mean that he would ever, in a million years, stand a chance against Bruno Sammartino.

Because, in my darker moments, I occasionally acknowledge that a wrestlers size (for the record, Bruno was only 5'10) does not correlate to his ability. The difference between Blazer and Bruno is roughly the same as that between Khali and Stone Cold. If I showed up insisting that Khali could just throw Austin around, and kept parroting that all the Punjabi nightmare would have to do would be to lock in the vice grip once, then I'd get a pile of red rep, and people would stop telling me how much they respect me. This is the same, except Blazer is Japanese, and has every external factor working to his advantage.

None of this means anything. Bruno was a power lifter first of all, which is why I bring up his strength. And secondly, you can't compare this match-up to something like Austin and Khali because Sugi is nothing like Austin and Bruno is nothing like Khali.

Yes, because I'm chronically ******ed.

Well, I wouldn't go that far.

How the fuck does this correlate? No Hogan wasn't one dimensional, watching Hogan is pretty good evidence of that.

And neither was Bruno.

As a matte rof fact I wouldn't, given that they're totally different matches with nothing in common. A hardcore match has weapons, a steel cage match has a picket fence round the ring. Incidently, you'd have done better confronting me with Santana & Samartino vs Savage & Adonis, since the steel cage came into play a little more in that match.

But still... a steel cage match has no disqualification rules, which is where the basis of "Hardcore" comes from, so a steel cage match is apart of the hardcore environment.

Incidently, evn id you 'do' think a cage match and a hardcore match are the same thing, then Sammartino has had a grand total of four in his entire career. Compare that to a tour with BIG JAPAN (If you're unfamiliar, it's like ECW, but for the truly demented) and it's meaningless.

Just because Sugi takes a lot of punishment, doesn't mean he would be able to dish it out against someone the likes of Bruno Sammartino.

In a hardcore match? Yes. Thesz goes out the second he hits any gimmick match outside of iron-man, submission of similar. I'm not a hypocrite thankyou.

Well, I find that hard to believe and even if you did, then we'd be having this exact same argument because it wouldn't matter if it was a Hardcore match or a Hell in a Cell match, Thesz would crush Sugi just like Bruno would.

Please. It'd be like Jerry Lawler showing up. Bruno embodied everything that the ECW crowd professed not to like, and frequently criticized the company. I don't think he'd get a warm welcome. Sugi does an inverted shooting star press that they're eating out of the palm of his hands.

Bruno is a legend on the East Coast who fucking dogs Vince McMahon every chance he gets. You really think ECW fans wouldn't like him?

I'm going to assume that this way a joke, on account of you not being an idiot.

We'll see if it was a joke if after this tournament is over, I decide to create a thread in the old school section in asking who was truly better.

In my opinion, to suggest that Sammartino would crush Sugi in ECW is ludicrous. And, why do people keep on bringing up size? Let me ask you this: in a fight, would you take Butterbean over Mayweather, Jr.? I sure as hell wouldn't.

The difference there Tdigs is that with Mayweather's speed, also comes a lot of impact. And Butterbean's fat ass doesn't have any stamina to begin with. Sugi can do all the running around he wants to, but at the end of the day, Bruno will eventually get his hands on him and once he does, I don't see how Sugi would be able to escape.

 

[Mr. TM]

I love Sugi's work, and I am not a fan of the style. I have never liked Sammartino's style, but I do understand what he did for the business. But I never found his work that great. In a Keyfabed environment, in a wrestlers ring, Sammartino would go over easily. But in ECW anything can happen. I think I am voting for Sugi here, he was one of my favourites, and he was one of my favourites for what he could do, and what I feel he could do in an ECW ring.