Does Santino's Reign Devalue the IC Title?

[AnthonyMango/NoFate007]

NoFate007, cheating to win or getting DQ'ed to keep the title in a dastardly fashion is exactly what the Honky Tonk Man did week in and week out. I can't remember him ever getting a legitimate, no cheating/no interference clean victory over any of his opponents. How is Santino any different?

But see, that's where the problem is. There are differences.

I can't remember much about Honky Tonk Man's record, as I'm only 21 and I didn't get into wrestling until around 95. But you say that you can't remember any wins that he had that didn't involve cheating or interference.

Did Santino cheat or have interference when he just beat D-Lo? Nope. It was a clean win. D-Lo goes for a frog splash, Santino has the sense to move away, then capitalize. That's happened to people that were pinning Jeff Hardy in regards to the Swanton, right? If Santino is supposed to be someone that can't win without help or cheating, why did he get a clean win? And if he can't beat anybody without help or cheating, but he CAN beat D-Lo without cheating, then it means that D-Lo is lower on the hierarchy than he is, and thus, D-Lo is an inept loser as well, but even more so than Santino!

Just because someone cheats to win doesn't mean they couldn't win, or that they didn't put up a good fight. Edge cheats to win most of the time, but you'd buy into it if he actually, hands down, defeated someone like HHH or the Undertaker, right? Now think about that in terms of Santino. Just because he cheats doesn't mean that he was squashed...especially if he fights back throughout the match.

By pure logic, if you have two people and its an "evenly matched up fight", that means that the winner is only slightly better if he wins clean. If he cheats, he's one of three options: better than (but lazy), equal to and couldn't edge them out without help, or worse than and they required help to even up the playing field.

So now, Santino defeated D-Lo without help or cheating. That means by default, he's better than D-Lo. And when you have Santino look like an idiot that can't even beat Mickie and Beth, then you're automatically saying that D-Lo would lose to Mickie and Beth, because he couldn't even beat Santino.

It would be totally different if Santino was getting his ass kicked the entire match and had no shot at winning, and then at the last second, distracted the ref, hit D-Lo with a chair, and got the pin. Now that's the character that Santino should be doing...someone who should NEVER be holding the title, but by fluke, was able to get it, and now only retains by cheating at the last second. Having him be someone who can actually defend his title makes it so you have to make a choice between either "Santino is now a legitimate contender" (which kills the comedy) or "all of Santino's opponents are weak enough that they're on his level".

 

[The Man of 1,000 Names]

interesting points are being made here, but overall I have to agree with NoFate. He reiterated my initial point exactly when he said that belts are for wrestlers and comedy angles are for comedians. Santino is not a wrestler, he's a mic talent, and he has no business being near the IC title. NoFate was also spot on when he said that not only does Santino wearing the strap belittle the title, more importantly it devalues his competition. One thing we're forgetting here is that not only did Santino beat D-Lo in 90 seconds, he beat him after D-Lo missed a frog splash. When's the last time a missed frog splash resulted in a pinfall only a minute and a half into the match? If D-Lo cant beat Santino, a guy who loses to women, and not only that loses to him clean in 90 seconds, and not only that simply because he missed a top rope move, why would I EVER take D-Lo seriously as a competitor?

The argument in this thread is digressing too far into whether or not the IC title is credible to begin with, and I understand people feeling that its not, as I tend to agree, but no one can say that Santino as champion will do anything to help that.

As a heel you can cheat, you can fake an injury, you can have outside help, you can do anything you need to do to win. The bottom line is that I want to see good wrestling, especially from title holders. As long as Santino is holding the strap and is being booked as he is now, I doubt we are going to be seeing any good IC title matches in the near future. At the end of the day, that's what bothers me the most.

 

[Dead Kennedy]

The way you devalue a title is making as little mention of it as possible and not having it defended regularly, effectively making it little more than an afterthought. Like they did with the most recent Intercontinental reign of one Chris Jericho.

Santino Marella is a genius at what he does. While Signore Marella not a fantastic wrestler, the Intercontinental title is finally getting some exposure and climbing back into the spotlight again, thanks to the efforts of the Unibrowed One. Comedic heel characters have proven to be the best Intercontinental Champions, in my opinion. Look at the "Honkey Donkey" Man. He wasn't a fantastic wrestler, but he was a great comedic heel who was always booked as the underdog or weaker man in his matches, but always seemed to pull through. He became the longest reigning Intercontinental Champion and one of the men to define that title.

Look at Chris Jericho (in earlier times). He is one of the best men to ever hold a microphone and is one of the premiere wrestlers in the company right now. He was a comedic heel for the majority of his IC title reigns.

Santino Marella is absolutely not damaging or devaluing the Intercontinental Championship, quite the contrary; he's making the Intercontinental Championship division entertaining again, rescuing it from a period of stagnancy that started when one Johnny Nitro dropped the Intercontinental Championship. I thank him. There are other champions who actually ARE devaluing titles in WWE right now, I suggest you create a thread about them. You know who they are.

 

[Darkshot77]

The way you devalue a title is making as little mention of it as possible and not having it defended regularly, effectively making it little more than an afterthought.

While I agree with you there, how can some one take a title seriously with aout a credible champion. Santino devalues the IC title in the same way Punk devalues the WHC, being uncredible. But even he is more uncredable than Punk. At least CM Punk won a very difficult MITB ladder match, and at the very least got a pinfall to get the title (albeit on a wounded Edge, but this dosent ruin his cred because it didnt ruin Edge's). What ruined his cred is lack-luster title defenses. Santino is even less of a credible champ because he didnt pin anyone for the title, a major travisty. That along with rediculous finishes makes him even less beleiveable.

The fact that the IC title had value before this reign is irrelavant, this is not about the state of the title, it is about Santino's effect. I say yes, he dose devalue the title. His comedy, his draw, his interesting factor, none of it matters. The title is only as valuable as the champion, and if I can't beleive he is champ, at that point the title means nothing.

 

[My$terio_Fan]

No. The title was crap before Santino won it, so he's not going to devalue it anymore. I like Santino and his reign, but really he didn't deserve the title. He was a jobber for over a year, losing to everyone(including girls). Then he pins a couple of girls and he get the title shot and title? It doesn't make sense but since its the WWE, it seems natural. Pretty much every belt is worthless nowadays, so Santino is hurting it. Also at least it's being displayed more with Santino then with Hardy/Jericho who often left the title out back if it wasn't being defended.

 

[Vagrant]

Though I understand the point being that Santino builds up the face by holding the title, but it seriously does devalue the title a lot in my opinion. You have the US title where MVP had a nice long reign, Matt Hardy took it for a bit and now Shelton Benjamin is holding onto it and is building himself incredibly, likely into the main event. The US title holders seem to be doing something serious with it. Then on the other hand you have Santino holding onto the IC title. His 'girlfriend' got the pin to win it for him, he can't win a fair match against the previous IC champion, and for God's sake he lost a match to a woman. I understand that he's a funny character and I love him to bits, and I think the IC title being on him is great (quite entertaining imo!) but as much as I enjoy it, I find it gives less value to those winning the title. That being said a solid few reigns could reestablish it a bit, but I think over the past few years it's gone far enough that I don't think it'll ever achieve the glory it had previously, and quite frankly with the WHC and WWE titles being first-tier and this being second, I don't think that WWE management want it to be a super meaningful title anymore, but should conserve some value.

It's not as if they're going to have it on him for 62 more weeks to top the Honky Tonk Man, he'll lose it eventually, and likely sooner than later. Though I find it devalues it a bit, let him have fun!

 

[ShaminThaShamed]

well in my opinion, a majority of wrestling fans have short term memory. I think once we get another great feud for the IC title the value will go back up. I would like to see D'lo brown get another chance at it. Show some his old title reign highlights on some video packages. Get the new fans introduced to him to show he was actually a semi main eventer back in the day. Have him turn heel against Kofi. But i think Santinos current title run devalues it while he has it. Once it goes to another wrestler with a credible storyline.. i think the value goes up.

 

[RBH]

The title was already devalued a long time ago when they stopped having it be defended on pay-per-view. This only adds to the fire. The last time the title actually meant something was when Jeff Hardy and John Morrison fought over it. It has not been much of anything since other than a joke and something that superstars could use to bargain with, not a title to be held to glory or won with pride. Jericho did not even defend it on pay-per view for about 4 months. That is how bad it has gotten. It does not help build superstars anymore as it should. That title should go to a superstar who is trying to emerge as a world title contender but not there yet, not someone who does not even come close to winning most of his matches by himself.

 

[Mr. TM]

So what exactly devalues a title? I think a title is devalued when no one wants to carry it. Chris Jericho did not want it, he is actually better than it. The title on a main event star like Jericho devalues it. It does not make Chris Jericho better, does it? That means its value is lowered. A title is valued parallel to the wrestler's need that has it. If Triple H said he was better than the WWE title, the title would be worth less than what it is. If Triple H said the title was all he thought about, the title would be worth more. If Chris Jericho never defended the IC championship, and did not care about it, it was worth very little, as he didn't need it. Santino needs and dreams of the title, and now that he wears it, it is valued highly, because it is needed.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

FUCK no it doesnt devalue the damn belt. Are you kidding?? devalue it lik ehow Jericho used to not even bring the fucking thing to the ring with him?? How Jeff Hardy used to never even defend it?? Thats insanity. There is a cowardly heel champ, who he, himself values the title, and an entire storyline based around the title, and him trying desperately to hold onto it. This is the first time in YEARS that the belt has had a focus around it, a storyline around it, and someone who actually acted interested in holding it. True Santino may never become of the echelon of Bret Hart and HBK, but to compare them is absolutely silly. Did the Honky Tonk Man, Razor Ramon, Mr.Perfect, or all the assclowns who held it during the "New Ear" and the "attitude era" do the same?? Fuck no. Thats quite the laughable comparison. Its a mid card title, and thats its use. And currently, the entire mid card of RAW is chasing it, and The Champ is desperate to keep it. Which is the way it SHOULD be. If anything the IC title has skyrocketed in value since Kofi took it off Jericho.

 

[edgebestheel20]

i agree with everyone here santino may not have the ring skills right now but give him time they will come. he is great on the mic and actually cares for the IC tittle unlike jerhico and jeff hardy who never defended it or cared about it. this was the work horse tittle of the wwe to make new stars now wwe is building it back up and santino and kofi are leading the way. here are others soon to join cade, d'low brown, and maybe diebeiase soon. i look for this tittle to have a good future once again along with tag belts. they just need to rebuild the divisions up again. the womens divas tittle need to be scrapped

 

[faucheaux]

Santino is the most entertaining things on RAW right now. We get his comedy and everone else moaning and groaning about there problems. Randy Orton crys about Punk and Priceless every week, JBL says no one Respects him, Kane goes into a stroyline that makes no sense, and Santino make suse laugh and we see the title every week. I can honestly say that I don't even think about changing the channel when he is on. Santino may not get many clean wins but neither did JBL when he was WWE champion. Almost all of JBL's title defenses ended with someone helping him or attacking his opponent for JBL to get the win. That didn't devalue the WWE title. It just made you tune in to see what was going to happen to him next. The same thing goes with Santino. You watch every week to see what he is going to say or do and then laugh when he gets nervous when he sees who is opponent is. He is probably one of my favorite wrestlers in the WWE right now for that reason alone. He is the best entertainer in the company right now.

 

[Mattyboy]

Well if anyone is going to beat Honkys record, it probably shouldnt be Santino. But for me the ic title is finally starting to mean something again but it needs to be defended on ppvs!All the time!Creative needs to remember some of the great IC feuds of all time like Rock v Austin, HBK v Ramon and Warrior v Rude and Honky. The IC is an easy way to start a feud without having to start a storyline-that can be developed as the feud goes on. Its a platform for getting to the top, which is why no maineventer needs it. Keep it midcard where it means something.

Raw has enough talent to have a really good IC division-Kofi, Santino, D-Lo, Regal etc. They should use the IC as a focus for all the guys who arent maineventing, and build up some strong interest in the IC again.

Its been a joke since Orton lost it, now they may be on the path to redeeming it.

 

[Ultimate Razor Rock]

Santino is my favorite current wrestler and he's the most entertaining character on Raw as of right now. So much so that I watch Raw only to see Santino. I hated him at first but the more you watch him the more he will grow on you. The guy oozes charisma and I haven't seen someone as funny as him since THE ROCK. Santino should continue to get pushed because he has the potential to be a main-eventer. He needs a good signature finishing move or two and he needs to keep getting face time cause he's too good not to.

 

[jpfizzle]

FUCK no it doesnt devalue the damn belt. Are you kidding?? devalue it lik ehow Jericho used to not even bring the fucking thing to the ring with him?? How Jeff Hardy used to never even defend it?? Thats insanity. There is a cowardly heel champ, who he, himself values the title, and an entire storyline based around the title, and him trying desperately to hold onto it. This is the first time in YEARS that the belt has had a focus around it, a storyline around it, and someone who actually acted interested in holding it. True Santino may never become of the echelon of Bret Hart and HBK, but to compare them is absolutely silly. Did the Honky Tonk Man, Razor Ramon, Mr.Perfect, or all the assclowns who held it during the "New Ear" and the "attitude era" do the same?? Fuck no. Thats quite the laughable comparison. Its a mid card title, and thats its use. And currently, the entire mid card of RAW is chasing it, and The Champ is desperate to keep it. Which is the way it SHOULD be. If anything the IC title has skyrocketed in value since Kofi took it off Jericho.

I agree with this post entirely, I would rep it if I could.

Santino doesn't actually defend it though, I mean none of his matches of late in which he has been winning all of them have been anounced as title matches, I don't really understand why seen as how he is booked to win anyway.

As NorCal said the Intercontinental title is a title for Mid-Carders, whats the point in giving it to an upper mid-carder who can't get into the main event (at the time he won it) like Jericho or Jeff Hardy when there are plenty of mid-carders who could really benefit from a go at the gold and for some it would be the most they would ever amount to in there careers. There is no shame in a mid-carder being the mid-card champion.

Different title here, but when Eddie Guerrero was European Champion he defended it reguarly, had it with him always and legitimately seemed like he valued it, he had such a succesful run with the European title that it actually got him up to the main event.

Santino as IC champion doesn't devalue it, he is exactly the type of wrestler who benefits from it, but because we've seen guys like Jericho and Jeff Hardy with it we think the belt is too good for him.

 

[Harthan]

I'll say the same thing here I did in the other thread on this subject: Santino IS the new Honky Tonk Man. He's a cowardly, funny heel who keeps winning his matches with roll ups or DQs or the like. I am 100% for him doing this for the next year until circa Summerslam or Unforgiven 2009.

Does it devalue the title? No way! It makes the title MORE valuable.

Think about what happens in even, oh, two months. Santino makes a few cowardly defenses, and it suddenly becomes the buzz of the midcard faces to be the guy who can actually take the title again. Maybe it's Kofi. Maybe it's D-Lo. Hell, it could be Matt Hardy (he's really a very good choice). Now picture what happens after he beats out the Honky Tonk Man for the longest reign. The faces are burning that he's devaluing the title (even though he really isn't, it's not a bad idea for the faces to use the excuse); think of the promos! Face yells at Santino, tells him he's ruining the title, Santino mocks them in his traditional and always hilarious manner, then beats them with a roll up, etc. Once this has gone on for a year, the crowd will HATE him, and then...he sets up the perfect moment. Just like Honky Tonk Man did. Call out an open challenge, and suddenly, there's that guy who's been off TV for a few weeks, or there's some unexpected superstar, etc., etc. (Maybe Beth Phoenix...how hilarious would that be?)

So first of all, a year long or better run for Santino adds value to the title by keeping it in someone's hands for a long time, building a heel, and creating excitement over just who is gonna beat him. And then, when the face inevitably destroys him for the title, it skyrockets that face and adds even more value to the title.

This is probably the best thing for the IC Title right now. Santino will rebuild it slowly over a year, and when he loses it, it will be a meaningful title that will be hotly contested.

 

[Mattyboy]

Id love it if D-Lo won the title, very talented and under-used. Yesterdays Raw reinforced for me Santino's position as a bit of a joke, he was totally squashed by Batista. Whichever way you cut it, its not good for the IC belt if its champ is squashed like that.

I do agree that he is the modern day Honky. I remember Honk barely winning his matches or stealing a victory, and the crowd hated him for it. If WWE runs with it, it could bode well for Santino and whoever takes the strap from him

 

[IrishCanadian25]

D'Lo!? Please tell me you are kidding...

What has D'Lo done since his return? Not a damn thing. He's trying to cash in on a marginally impressive career from over 5 years ago, during which his success was only attributable to being a bi-product of the racially charged feud he was embroiled in. Aside from a chest protector and a modest Euro Title reign, what has D'Lo EVER done that is noteworthy enough to put the Intercontinental Championship on him???

What's the big deal about Santino getting squashed by Batista? Batista is a top main-event face who is on the short list of top 4-5 contenders for the World Heavyweight Championship. Santino is a comedic mid-card heel who is finding new and creative ways to survive each and every week.

The Honky Tonky Man's title reign ended at the hands of The Ultimate Warrior in a squash similar to that of last night's Batista / Santino altercation. The comparisons are too obvious to ignore - Santino and Honky, Batista and Warrior.

One thing I'd do if I were Santino, and I've wanted to pitch this idea for ages now. Go to Titan Towers and get the old school, late 80's / 90's Intercontinental Championship Belt. Claim that as the future greatest IC Champ in history, he deserves to hold both belts since no former champ can touch him. Have him feud with former champs who are old and past their prime. Tito Santana, Rick Martel, Marty Jannetty, Pat Patterson, Ricky Steamboat, etc. Hell, give Chyna a one-day contract and have her come in to talk at Santino until Beth Phoenix comes out for the ultimate staredown. Then, after Michaels is donw getting dismantled by Chris Jericho, let Michaels have a shot.

THAT is value to the IC Title.

 

[Big Sexy]

what has D'Lo EVER done that is noteworthy enough to put the Intercontinental Championship on him???

What has Santino ever done to deserve the title. Just because he's funny doesn't mean he should be the champ. His wrestling skills are very minimal. I could see him being a great manager and/or just jobbing to younger talent, but if you think D lo doesnt deserve the ic title then there is no way Santino deserves it. When the Honky Tonk man was the champ titles didn't change hands very often. They only had 4 main pay per views at he time so it was easy for him to keep the title for a long time. Now there's a pay per view every month so if Santino keeps the belt and breaks the Honky Tonk Mans record then that will pretty much kill any bit of credibility the ic title had left. I hope some new young guy debuts soon and takes the title from Santino because as funny as Santino is, him having the title is starting to get old.

 

[Mattyboy]

I doubt the majority of todays audience knows half the guys you mention. And i doubt HBK is going to drop a level frankly. The last time i remember a regular maineventer holding the IC title was HHH during the power trip. As you said guys like Martel and Jannetty are past their prime, what real benefit would they bring? Plus, and no doubt ill take heat for this, neither rank up with the great IC champs.

D-lo was/is a talented, very talented infact, performer in the ring. he would be more deserving of the IC title than alot of guys on the roster outside the mainevent. He had a good run as european champ and was part of the NOD from its beginnings. He's wrestled with and against the best during the attitude era.

 

[Slyfox696]

What has Santino ever done to deserve the title.

Well, for one, have a future in the WWE. Which is more than we can say for D'Lo Brown.

Just because he's funny doesn't mean he should be the champ. His wrestling skills are very minimal. I could see him being a great manager and/or just jobbing to younger talent, but if you think D lo doesnt deserve the ic title then there is no way Santino deserves it.

I won't disagree that Santino doesn't deserve it, but he does more than D'Lo, if for no other reason than because he has a future, where as D'Lo is past his prime, and is back simply for a name and to give young guys experience.

Now there's a pay per view every month so if Santino keeps the belt and breaks the Honky Tonk Mans record then that will pretty much kill any bit of credibility the ic title had left.

That makes no sense. Why would that be the case? I would think if Santino would defend it every week, and keep it that long it would ADD to the credibility of the title.

See what John Cena did for the WWE title in his year long run? And how over it was? And if Cena could have put over the next champion clean, it would have been great for the next champion. If not for just sheer bad luck, that's exactly what would have happened.

 

[Father:_Polley]

How does the fact that Santino comes out and defends the belt devalue the belt? Because he's a 'comedy jobber', because he jobs to the likes of Batista? So what. Umaga does the exact same, yet people praise his value.

I don't see why that matters to his reign. After all, Y2J's recent reign was a joke, as was Jeff Hardy's. Simply because they refused to defend the belt.

To Cena's credit, he was a fighting Champion, and that was why his reign was regarded as being a success, despite all the criticism for his lack of ability, Cena made the belt his own and added value to the reign.

Criticize him all you want, but the fact that he appears every week proud of the belt gives the belt more value than Jericho or Hardy gave it

 

[Big Sexy]

if for no other reason than because he has a future

what kind of a future is getting bs wins over mid card guys and cracking a few jokes. hes never going to be any more then a comedic guy that cant wrestle. I'd rather have someone with a bright future have the title rather then someone with a below average future.

I don't really think Dlo should be the champ either but he still would be a better champ then Santino.

I would think if Santino would defend it every week, and keep it that long it would ADD to the credibility of the title.

Getting dominated for an entire match and then winning with a rollup isnt adding any credibility to the title. I don't care how many times he does it.

See what John Cena did for the WWE title in his year long run? And how over it was?

Are you really comparing John Cena to Santino?

 

[Father:_Polley]

what kind of a future is getting bs wins over mid card guys and cracking a few jokes. hes never going to be any more then a comedic guy that cant wrestle. I'd rather have someone with a bright future have the title rather then someone with a below average future.

Ahhh, the old can't wrestle card. Tell me then...how did the Rock get over? Was it his ability to chain wrestle, or was it that he was fun to watch? Do people care more about Charlie Haas when he's impersonating JBL, or locking on 17 submission moves a match? Santino has charisma and that sells. Besides, isn't Santino's gimmick that of a loser with delusions of grandeur. And have you actually seen him outside of Raw? Because I'll think you'll find he can wrestle.

Besides, can you tell what Santino's future will be? From the talk of WWE, Cade is a future champ, but is he over? Ehhhh, no. He's with Chris Jericho and HBK and still no-one actually cares that he's in the ring

I don't really think Dlo should be the champ either but he still would be a better champ then Santino.

Why? Because he's a 'legend'? Or because he was in the Attitude Era? D'Lo's career never got above IC level in his prime, why give it to him now?

Getting dominated for an entire match and then winning with a rollup isnt adding any credibility to the title. I don't care how many times he does it.

It adds interest to the matches, because face it, you want to see him lose, so you watch and hate him as a result of being a weak heel. I believe he's doing his job

Are you really comparing John Cena to Santino?

I believe he was

 

[Big Sexy]

Ahhh, the old can't wrestle card. Tell me then...how did the Rock get over? Was it his ability to chain wrestle, or was it that he was fun to watch? Do people care more about Charlie Haas when he's impersonating JBL, or locking on 17 submission moves a match? Santino has charisma and that sells. Besides, isn't Santino's gimmick that of a loser with delusions of grandeur. And have you actually seen him outside of Raw? Because I'll think you'll find he can wrestle.

Even if he can wrestle none of his matches since he's been in the WWE have shown that and none of his matches are entertaining. Last time I checked the point of matches were to entertain people. The Rock was very entertaining and he put on a lot of great matches so that comparison doesn't work at all.

Why? Because he's a 'legend'? Or because he was in the Attitude Era? D'Lo's career never got above IC level in his prime, why give it to him now?

once again I don't think D lo should be champion. I was just using him as an example because someone earlier mentioned his name and got crushed for it. I'm just saying Dlo would be more deserving then Santino. but d lo should not be the champ either.

I wouldn't even mind Santino being champion if it was just for a short while to put over someone like Kofi, but the way everyone is saying he should keep the title for a long time and break the Honky Tonk mans record makes no sense, and if that is the case then the title is getting devalued big time.