Does CM Punk Need A New Finisher?

K

K_VonFong

Dark Match Winner
I'm a big CM Punk mark and have been saying since his ROH days that he'll go down as one of the great wrestlers of his generation. My roommate has always scoffed at me and said that the Go-to-Sleep will always hold Punk back. First, he claimed that the move was stupid looking (which I totally disagree with) and second, he said that Punk wouldn't be able to pull off the move against main-event sized wrestlers like Triple H, Batista, or Undertaker...and even if he did it would just look silly because Punk was so much smaller.

I didn't pay much attention to what my buddy said, but after seeing CM Punk botch the GTS a handful of times in the last couple years and his recent embarrassing screw-ups on Smackdown trying to pull off the move on Kane, I'm starting to think maybe there's something to what he's saying.

So, does CM Punk need a new finisher? Is the GTS holding him back in anyway? Or does he need to really work the squats in the weight room or something?

And if the WWE Brass decided to give Punk a new finisher what should it be?

A few possible moves:
1. Shining Wizard - a good quick striking finisher would suite CM Punk I think, so a running knee to a staggered or kneeling opponent in the center of the ring could work well. He could set up anticipation for the strike much like Edge's spear and it's never been popularized as a finisher by anyone in the WWE yet.

2. Superkick - I don't think you have to retire the move forever. It's just too sweet of a finisher and it would fit Punk really well. Maybe HBK comes out of retirement for a program with Punk and passes the torch and the superkick over to him. I can dream right?

3. Anaconda Vice - Submission finisher isn't my top choice for Punk, but emphasizing it more is an option to cover up for the GTS when needed. Jericho and others have multiple finishers. The side-effect into the anaconda vice is an awesome combo.

So, does CM Punk need a new finisher? What do you think?
 
I made a thread a while back addressing a similar situation, and I still think the opinion re-affirms this topic. I believe that CM Punk should be using the Anaconda Vise as his finisher due to its integration with his current gimmick.

He wants people to admit that they are living a non-pure lifestyle by not adhering to the straight-edge pledge of sobriety. Considering he is a wrestler, what is the easiest way for the audience to understand how he has the power to convert people yet remaining within the bounds of wrestling? They submit to their authority. Outside of the "I Quit" match, submissions will achieve this goal.

Punk right now has evolved his character in many ways, with the society to the mask, but nothing would be more definitive for someone to physically tap out to Punk, giving him some vital material to use whilst on the stick (albeit his gimmick and promo's are pretty much golden). Re-applying the Anaconda Vise (pun intended) to his moveset will not affect him as he has previously used this maneuver on multiple occasions.

This is the one thing that Punk is missing, a bold and decisive finisher. A submission move, which I have specified the Anaconda Vise, would quite easily fill the void.
 
Well you are wrong on the Shining Wizard because Helms used that. He won't get the superkick because of HBK and while the Vice is his best option, it just isn't booked for him to use for almost no reason whatsoever.

I'm suprised you didn't mention the Pepsi Plunge but like the superkick, he would not be able to use it because of the similarity to the Pedigree.

He maybe could do with working on his strength but I doubt it's the problem. Kane is a veteran and should have helped Punk in some way or the creative should have had him win by another way.

Maybe a quick striking move would be best but I struggle to think of one suitable.
 
While Helms did use the Shining Wizard, he was never really "over" while he used it. He is mainly known for the Eye of the Hurricane. I think it would be a good move for Punk as would the Anaconda Vice, but they would need to rename it to the Vice, since it would suite the straight edge gimmick better.
 
Falkon, good point about the correlation of the anaconda vice and imposing the straight edge life-style, the finisher embodies his gimmick in that way, i agree, but I think a side-effect slam maneuver into the Vice would add that extra decisiveness.

Not a big fan of the Pepsi Plunge, plus it's gotta be a rough move on Punk's knees when he delivers it. Gotta think long-term health and practicality.

Varney - Nice vids, but never said that Punk couldn't hit the move on big guys, it's about appearance and consistency though. And I don't think Punk should get rid of the GTS either, but if they worked another finisher into his repertoire than at least he'd have more options.
 
Mixing up both Devlin's and your point, K_VonFong, about the Anaconda Vise, it would become more of a gimmick finisher that easily compliments how CM Punk wrestles.

The "side-effect" slam portrays what happens after you decide to induce toxins into your body, usually hitting you with a varying degree of surprise. Since the move can be essentially out of nowhere like Matt Hardy does it, the move can tie into the gimmick if the commentators are smart enough to explain this to the average viewer. The Anaconda Vise shortened to "The Vice" links up with people having personal problems and needing to find a route to escape these problems. By Punk using "The Vice," he can save you by the opponent submitting to Punk's ways of the straight-edge society. Thus, completing the transformation and actually telling the story inside the ring via using moveset only... something which current wrestlers seem to lack these days.

No need to be flashy, just needs to be tied into the wrestlers gimmick to make some good entertainment. Nice to know posters are on the ball here. Good work Devlin and K_VonFong.
 
varney said:
He does need the Vice, but the WWE doesn't allow him to use a submission

but the G2S is great and he doesn't need to change it, he botched it against a super heavyweight when 2 days prior he had 13 staples put in his head

he has shown in the past he can pull it off against 300lb plus guys

evidence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNS1zzDHU50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yYnJ-9b_LI

he's fine, i'm blaming the botch on the 13 staples
Click to expand...

he says he blames it on the staples but when smackdown came to seattle earlier this year on rey mysterios daughters birthday. cm punk and kane had a match and he blotched it in that too.he had kane on his shoulders and when he went to execute it kane was just to big and punk dropped him punk then picked kane up again and executed a very poor GTS.they edited it off of tv but i was there live and i felt really emberassed for him because he just pretty much hit the reset button and picked kane up and tried again..... so i think that he should have to alternative finishers......for super heavy weights he should use a flying knee to a groggy opponent....and for guys he can lift have him use the gts i think that would work out pretty well........ oh yeah by the way the first video this guy posted of punk giving kane GTS is the one i was at and before he landed that mediocre GTS he totally dropped kane
 
the gts is okay..but he has been botching it recently to bigger wrestlers...i think he should be using the vice more often...why not? its a great submission hold and can be deadly..

He should use the vice as his first finisher...and the GTS as his secondary...kinda like cena does with his attitude adjustment and STF!!
 
The G2S is brilliant for CM Punk and suites him perfectly, but I do agree to a extent he must change it. But I dont think he should change it to the Anconda Vice. Simply because for me, it will not fix the problem!! We have brought up this topic because CM Punk cannot perform his finisher on bigger men without botching, The vice will not fix this problem because he will suffer the same problem the late great Chris Benoit suffered, that being his inability to execute the crossface on people bigger than Kane. If CM Punk starts using the vice again we will have to have this thread all over again.

The super kick would definately be a better solution, and the idea another lad on this forum mentioned would be awesome with Shawn Michael passing the torch to CM Punk. But as he ended it is highly unlikely but would be extraordinary.
 
He should keep the GTS but also use the vice . Wasnt the STF brought in for cena at the start when he was against people like the great khali and umaga and couldnt use the FU ? So they could use the vice for people who he cant use the GTS on .
 
ThePh3nomonal1 said:
We have brought up this topic because CM Punk cannot perform his finisher on bigger men without botching, The vice will not fix this problem because he will suffer the same problem the late great Chris Benoit suffered, that being his inability to execute the crossface on people bigger than Kane. If CM Punk starts using the vice again we will have to have this thread all over again.
Click to expand...

I see you have used the crippler crossfacec as an example why the vice may not work..but think about it..the crippler was still performed on every wrestler...submissions can be put on anyone, look at cena for example against big show in the submission match they hada few years ago..cena used the ropes..benoit couldn't get the crippler on kane i remember at badd blood 2004, instead went for a cheeky pin..this is obviously because i think wwe didn't want kane to tap!!

The vice won't be botched like the GTS has been..submission hold can take time to get locked on..but in the end they can get them done..but the GTS, im glad punks on a taped show, because he has to perform it like 3 times before he gets it right..
 
I personally think he needs an aerial finisher. Something besides the springboard flying clothesline. Maybe like a Senton or Flying Spinning Heelkick. The FSH is something that could work on a big guy its only when Rey does stuff like that to guys like Kane, Undertaker, and the Big Show that it's not believable. It could work for guys like Punk and Morrison because their bigger and taller. The senton could work but he'd have to use another big and powerful move to get the big guys down. Something like a Springboard Knee to the head.

Now I'm not saying he should just drop the GTS all together just save that for lighter wrestlers. Now the vice could work well too for bigger guys. And mr_dna pretty much hit it right on the head about cena and the STFU. It was originally brought in for the feud with Kurt Angle because if I recall they had a Submission match but then it was use for guys like Khali and Umaga(R.I.P.) because he couldn't give them the FU. That could work for CM Punk when he can't pick the big guys up for the GTS go for the Anaconda Vice.
 
K_VonFong said:
I'm a big CM Punk mark and have been saying since his ROH days that he'll go down as one of the great wrestlers of his generation. My roommate has always scoffed at me and said that the Go-to-Sleep will always hold Punk back. First, he claimed that the move was stupid looking (which I totally disagree with) and second, he said that Punk wouldn't be able to pull off the move against main-event sized wrestlers like Triple H, Batista, or Undertaker...and even if he did it would just look silly because Punk was so much smaller.

I didn't pay much attention to what my buddy said, but after seeing CM Punk botch the GTS a handful of times in the last couple years and his recent embarrassing screw-ups on Smackdown trying to pull off the move on Kane, I'm starting to think maybe there's something to what he's saying.

So, does CM Punk need a new finisher? Is the GTS holding him back in anyway? Or does he need to really work the squats in the weight room or something?

And if the WWE Brass decided to give Punk a new finisher what should it be?

A few possible moves:
1. Shining Wizard - a good quick striking finisher would suite CM Punk I think, so a running knee to a staggered or kneeling opponent in the center of the ring could work well. He could set up anticipation for the strike much like Edge's spear and it's never been popularized as a finisher by anyone in the WWE yet.

2. Superkick - I don't think you have to retire the move forever. It's just too sweet of a finisher and it would fit Punk really well. Maybe HBK comes out of retirement for a program with Punk and passes the torch and the superkick over to him. I can dream right?

3. Anaconda Vice - Submission finisher isn't my top choice for Punk, but emphasizing it more is an option to cover up for the GTS when needed. Jericho and others have multiple finishers. The side-effect into the anaconda vice is an awesome combo.

So, does CM Punk need a new finisher? What do you think?
Click to expand...

I don't think punk needs to switch up the finisher. Jus don't use it on the big guys, its simple. He can use any of those other moves on bigger guys and not botch so many times. The gts is one of the most lethal looking moves in the buisness imo. When he is wrestling someone that can take the big bump then it goes over good most times and it looks devistating. This thread could have easily been made about other superstars as I think that some other moves are too fake and always look horrible. How about that dolph finisher? Or starship pain? How many times have we seen ppl not be able to take a chokeslam good and the fuck the move up so bad. Anyone remember that chokeslam taker hit on hogan awhile back? If not you tube it, I think its under "worst chokeslam ever" no bullshit..
 
The Anaconda Vice should simply be used more often. A takedown or something that turns into the Anaconda Vice once Punk and his opponent hits the mat would be great to see. He doesn't really need another finisher or signature move right now. He's changed his gimmick quite drastically as of late, so another change this soon might not be good. The Vice was great to see and like Falkon said earlier, the submission of someone to Punk just looks a lot better.
 
I don't really think the Anaconda Vice should be used ever. It is essentially just a top wrist lock but the recipient is lying down. If guys don't tap to top wrist locks, why would i believe that lying down is suddenly going to make the move that more painful?

Now i know someone's going to come on here and say 'No it's a jui jitsu hold and it's a choke!' Well, unfortunately, no it isn't. It may very well be a Jui Jitsu hold, but it's certainly not a choke, because there's absolutely no pressure being put on any part of the neck that controls breathing.

All pressure is put on the back of the neck and the arm. And how is this done? By Punk looping his arm though the hole in your arm and pulling backwards. So how do you eleviate the pressure on your neck? You fuckin' sit up. Your other arm isn't being held in any way, so you just punch Punk in the face and you're out of the hold. TA DAAAAAAAAA!

Shit submission. Easily escapable and the way Punk does it, it doesn't come off as a legitimately painful hold. He should just keep doing the GTS but stop trying to be Super Cena and lift guys far bigger than himself.
 
The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh said:
I don't really think the Anaconda Vice should be used ever. It is essentially just a top wrist lock but the recipient is lying down. If guys don't tap to top wrist locks, why would i believe that lying down is suddenly going to make the move that more painful?

Now i know someone's going to come on here and say 'No it's a jui jitsu hold and it's a choke!' Well, unfortunately, no it isn't. It may very well be a Jui Jitsu hold, but it's certainly not a choke, because there's absolutely no pressure being put on any part of the neck that controls breathing.

All pressure is put on the back of the neck and the arm. And how is this done? By Punk looping his arm though the hole in your arm and pulling backwards. So how do you eleviate the pressure on your neck? You fuckin' sit up. Your other arm isn't being held in any way, so you just punch Punk in the face and you're out of the hold. TA DAAAAAAAAA!

Shit submission. Easily escapable and the way Punk does it, it doesn't come off as a legitimately painful hold. He should just keep doing the GTS but stop trying to be Super Cena and lift guys far bigger than himself.
Click to expand...


Anaconda vice

The anaconda vice (also spelled vise) is a Brazilian Ju-Jitsu and Judo compression choke. It is also called the arm-trap triangle choke.

i'm going to assume you are not an 10th degree black belt in brazilian ju-jitsu from that post

btw you know wrestling is fake right, punching Punk in the face can help you get out of the submission, but you can say the same about the stfu, armbar, etc

for example the ankle lock, all you got to do is roll over and the pains alleviated but who cares its wrestling
 
I wouldn't say that CM Punk needs a new finisher, I wouldn't start kicking and screaming if he got another finisher, but I'm perfectly fine with the current finisher.

It doesn't necessarily fit his gimmick, but a lot of the moves doesn't necessarily fit the gimmick, and that's not always a bad thing, the move can look legitimate and if performed legitimately could do damage, which is why I'm perfectly fine with it already.

But if I was to give CM Punk a new finisher, I would say either use the Anaconda Vice regularly, that's really the only finisher I could possibly see CM Punk using, that, or some kind of Muay Thai influenced kick (that isn't a roundhouse kick, overrated as hell!).
 
CM Punk doesn't really need a new finisher. The GTS is pretty good and he botched it on Kane. Not some normal sized guy, but a 7-foot giant. He can be excused on that one. I like the way Punk has used the GTS recently after matches. Where the rest of the SES lift the victim ceremoniously onto his shoulders. That looks pretty good.
I don't understand why he doesn't use the Anaconda Vise. Since i've started watching WWE, he hasn't used it once. But he should because it looks like a good finisher, very painful. And like FalKon said, it is like the opponent is being submissive to straight edge and him when they tap out. It would be good for his character to use both.
 
varney said:
i'm going to assume you are not an 10th degree black belt in brazilian ju-jitsu from that post
Click to expand...

You know what they say about assuming......

No i'm not, but when you look at pics of Punk applying it and see the gaping hole between the opponents throat and him, it's fairly obvious he's not applying a choke.

Yeah ok, so i could have made my first post clearer, but i didn't, let's move on.

And guess what, the wiki definition is what i used to base my post on, so you haven't really corrected me by showing me what i read in the first place.

In fact, apart from that opening sentence, the wiki definition doesn't describe a choke either, because their description focuses entirely on the neck and arm. Usually when wiki defines a wrestling hold as a choke, they bother to emphasise exactly what veins and arteries are having pressure applied to cause the flow of air to stop. This definition of the Anaconda Vise makes no mention of air flow at all. So either the definition is wrong or i am, and since you've used the same sorce as me to argue with me, we'll never prove that until we get Punk and a Ju-Jitsu teacher to show us.

See if we were talking about the Gogopalata that Taker uses, that's clearly a choke because you can see his shin bone going into his opponent's throat. Now obviously he isn't choking them, but at least it looks like he actually is.

You see Punk execute his submission and all you see him do is fold their arm over, and pull their head forward, but there's no pressure between his opponent's throat and him, so how is it a choke?

btw you know wrestling is fake right,
Click to expand...

Of course i do, i'm talking kayfabe, where you talk as if the storylines and moves were 100% real, but aren't stupid enough to actually believe it. Unfortunately that's how most arguments in wrestling forums start. Someone talks in kayfabe and someone else comes along and says 'you're such a mark, you think that was actually Orton's house they trashed?' No of course not, but when we're discussing a storyline/gimmick/hold, i'm going to talk about it as if it were real, because that's how they try to present it to us, as if it were real.

punching Punk in the face can help you get out of the submission, but you can say the same about the stfu, armbar, etc
Click to expand...

No, you totally couldn't. You could only get out of the STF by biting the guys hands, IF their hands aren't wrapped entirely around your throat, which in Cena's case, they usually are. You couldn't punch him in the face when you're lying on your front with him sat behind you pulling backwards on your head. That's like saying you could get out of Mexican Surfboard by headbutting your opponent, despite the fact that your being pushed in to the air with your own arms and legs, and you and your opponent are two whole arm/legs lengths apart!

And how do you punch someone in the face when you're caught in an armbar? You're lying down, with your opponents legs across your chest, keeping you down, so you can't roll on your side or turn over.

Put your left arm out straight and then swing with your right arm while keeping your left arm in line with your shoulder blade. You'll hit your own elbow and that's it. No way you could punch your way out of an armbar.

for example the ankle lock, all you got to do is roll over and the pains alleviated
Click to expand...

That it is.

but who cares its wrestling
Click to expand...

Wrestling, the fake sport, that everyone knows is fake, but loads of professional sporting bodies still treat it as if it was a real sport.

Well, even though i know it's fake, they still present it as if it were real, so if they're going to do that, the moves should be executed realisticly. Otherwise they should give up and call it World Fake Fighting Entertainment.
 
I always thought Punk would benefit froma Superkick like move. If anyone follows ROH they will know what I am talking about. After Tyler Black hits the Buckle Bomb he always does the superkick while hte guy is on his knees and it looks brutal. I think Punk could pull that off very well and it would look vicious.
 
First off, I have it on good authority that it's was entirely Kane's fault on Friday, because he's a fucking oaf. I didn't actually watch Smackdown, but I'm still sticking to this.

Secondly, it's always good to have another finisher. The GTS is still pretty badass and Punk shouldn't get rid of it entirely. In fact, I think it should still be his go to move. However, have him use the Anaconda Vice every now and then while screaming "You're not pure!" in the face of his opponent and he'll benefit greatly.
 
For his current character the Anaconda Vice probably isn't a good idea to use as a finisher due to not wanting faces to look weak, and a guy like Kane isn't suppose to tap very often. I believe one of the ideas was the Shining Wizard? Out of the three given, that would be the best, but for Punk's gimmick they need something completely new I think. Something that shows the symbolism of "The Savior", although the GTS sacrifice thing is pretty good at that already. Hmmm....
 
I've been saying for a long time the move Punk should be using for his finisher is this

[youtube]YlpbojRb1Wg[/youtube]

He can hit the move on just about anyone of an size, he can hit it out of nowhere, or he could pause for a second and taunt while delivering the move, the Twist would be a perfect move for Punk right now
 
CM punk showed that he can perform the finisher until he fights mark henry or big show, because he did it to every other big guy. This finisher is not good?! Then howcome FU (pardon me attitude of judgment or adjustment or whatever) works? What would be harder to fall on your back or fall and finding out a knee hitting your face. I belive if John Cena Made it with FU, Edge made it with a weak spear (yes it very weak compared to lashley or goldberg or rhyno) then CM punk can make it with GTS
 
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