Does being the biggest draw equal to being the most entertaining? Nope

[Crocker]

Well think about it from Vince's bubble. Big returning star Batista. Big star Orton. Lots of history and only had (I think) one feud. So in his bubble, I could totally see why he tried to book that.

That Ryder thing was bad. I agree. However it doesn't prove they don't want to make money. It just proves that they don't think things through sometimes.

Someone else responded to the Sheamus, Del Rio and Khali stuff so I won't address that.

Ps - Yes I know it took me forever to respond to this.

Which proves exactly why Vince is out of touch. People didn't want to be force-fed a feud and shove aside the most over man in a long time.

 

[Crocker]

I'm sure you know better than the people who go to work via limousines.

You ever consider the fact that the writers only care about the money; as long as they get paid they don't care about the product quality, as long as they can do the bare minimum, so long as Vince doesn't fire them. This is how it is for A LOT of companies. Don't be naive.

Are these people still being featured prominently on Raw? Are they in feuds at this moment, or are heavily talked about?

Rusev is losing a lot more since the Cena feud and no his feud with Ziggler feels like filler. He no longer has the unstoppable aura he once had before.

Oh I forgot. Cena is the one in charge of putting the matches together and writing the scripts. Silly me.

Like I said before, he has a say, and he could've volunteered to put him over.

He's not exactly Ric Flair here.

He's prtty much the same age as HBk when he started to slow down in the mid card and put people over.

Indeed. And each and every one has been treated as a big fucking deal, now haven't they? Even NXT has become a staple to WWE instead of the watered down Tough Enough that it previously was.

5 years ago there was a so called youth movement. Barrett, Ziggler, Miz, Riley, Otunga, and a few others were being labeled as the future. Now look where they are now. Not even close to main eventers. Don't get your hopes up about WWE being consistent with pushes. I don't think Ambrose and Cesaro will make it to that level due to Vince McMahon's ego. Wyatt MIGHT make it. Reigns and Rollins will for sure make it as they have the backstage support.

He would have hated wrestling back in the 90s.

He also watched it back in the 90s. He doesn't hate Cena, he just finds it odd how hes so old yet always booked on top, especially compared to the rest of the younger talent.

Gah, why should I go see The Avengers if I know they're going to save the day all the time?

Because the storylines are extremely different and unique. Can't say the same for every Cena storyline.. every tme he faces a monster heel its the same shit (look at Rusev, Ryback, Khali, Umaga, etc). Faces a demonic heel like Wyatt or Kane and they try to get him to "embrace the hate". Faces an up and coming person like Ambrose and Rollins and says something along the lines of "you gotta beat the man to be the man".. its a very redundant formula. At least with the Avengers there are unpredictable elements, like how will the heroes win? With Cena its so obvious (How will he lift this 300 pound Monster? AA out of nowhere!!!!)

Even his promos are very similar. If someone "shoots" on him such as Rollins and Owens did, then Cena gets the last laugh and says something that will attempt the crowd on his side. The opponent doesn't have a response. That is just so predictable and insulting to our intelligence

It's a tv show with Cena as its main protagonist. Of course he's going to fucking win more than he loses.

Thats not the problem. The problem is his stale character, redundant storylines, and always hurting up coming superstars momentum. Every time an up and coming star feuds with Cena I fear for their momentum

 

[Spidey Revivey]

Why is this still going on? You all just go back-and-forth and never get anywhere. Just stop it.

Ikr? It's almost as annoying as some dude telling them to stop it.

It's a discussion forum. Discussions tend to do this.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

You ever consider the fact that the writers only care about the money; as long as they get paid they don't care about the product quality, as long as they can do the bare minimum, so long as Vince doesn't fire them. This is how it is for A LOT of companies. Don't be naive.

You do realize they're making money because a lot of people like it, right? At least tell me you understand that much about business at least. Don't be stupid.

Rusev is losing a lot more since the Cena feud and no his feud with Ziggler feels like filler. He no longer has the unstoppable aura he once had before.

It feels like filler to you. That's subjective and has no grounds in an objective argument.

And no shit he doesn't have an unstoppable aura. He was beating jobbers and beatable midcarders for a year. You wanted him to keep doing that and be as any one dimensional monster heel is? No thank you. I don't like the love triangle shit either but at least he's doing something that's not making another random tap.

Like I said before, he has a say,

As any actor does with a script. That doesn't make him the Director though, now does it?

and he could've volunteered to put him over.

If you can find somebody with Cena's drawing power that has lost as many times as Cena has, then maybe you'd have a leg to stand on.

He's prtty much the same age as HBk when he started to slow down in the mid card and put people over.

There is a big difference between HBK and that era compared to Cena and this one. You don't see the weekly bloodbath, the steel chair to the faces, the silly Jackass spots, etc anymore. And HBK never drew as much money as Cena had.

5 years ago there was a so called youth movement. Barrett, Ziggler, Miz, Riley, Otunga, and a few others were being labeled as the future. Now look where they are now. Not even close to main eventers. Don't get your hopes up about WWE being consistent with pushes. I don't think Ambrose and Cesaro will make it to that level due to Vince McMahon's ego. Wyatt MIGHT make it. Reigns and Rollins will for sure make it as they have the backstage support.

Please provide evidence to this "youth movement" and how people thought Otunga was the future.

He also watched it back in the 90s. He doesn't hate Cena, he just finds it odd how hes so old yet always booked on top, especially compared to the rest of the younger talent.

38 years old isn't old. I don't see you talking about Brock Lesnar like that.

Because the storylines are extremely different and unique. Can't say the same for every Cena storyline.. every tme he faces a monster heel its the same shit (look at Rusev, Ryback, Khali, Umaga, etc). Faces a demonic heel like Wyatt or Kane and they try to get him to "embrace the hate".

You mean you haven't figured out that the knight is supposed to beat the dragon?

This has been the same formula since the Territory Days. And it never stopped fans from paying to see it.

Faces an up and coming person like Ambrose and Rollins and says something along
the lines of "you gotta beat the man to be the man".. its a very redundant formula.

Wrestling in itself is redundant and filled with basic formulas. Yet it continues to make money and keep their targeted demographic happy.

At least with the Avengers there are unpredictable elements, like how will the heroes win?

By setting aside their differences and ganging up on whatever villain they have to beat? :shrugs: Like in every superhero team movie? Yeah, unpredictable.

With Cena its so obvious (How will he lift this 300 pound Monster? AA out of nowhere!!!!)

1. This argument applies to guys like Goldberg and Lesnar too. Hope you feel the same way about them as you do Cena.

2. Totally obvious he'd use duct tape on Batista in their Last Man Standing Match. Completely normal that he'd make Triple H tap out to an STF at Wrestlemania 22or use a Springboard Stunner this "late" into his career. An AA to both Edge and Big Show at the same time? So obvious.

3. I bet you thought it was obvious Cena was going to win at SummerSlam.

Thats not the problem. The problem is his stale character, redundant storylines, and always hurting up coming superstars momentum. Every time an up and coming star feuds with Cena I fear for their momentum

Yeah. I fear for Seth Rollins's momentum like I feared for Daniel Bryan's at last year's Summerslam. Or CM Punk a few years ago at Money In The Bank.

You can't find someone as big as Cena who has lost as many times as Cena has, can you?

 

[Bernkastel]

Ikr? It's almost as annoying as some dude telling them to stop it.

It's a discussion forum. Discussions tend to do this.

Imagine BSE in the Wrestlezone Tournament. Every other thread he'd be like "oh my god stop it this has gone too far."

 

[BringThePain834]

This is at the point where whenever the name "John Cena" crosses Crocker's and equally bitch leveled I Hate Cena's minds, that's when things have gone too far

 

[Crocker]

You do realize they're making money because a lot of people like it, right? At least tell me you understand that much about business at least. Don't be stupid.

You do realize that there are many companies putting in the bare minimum work, but casuals don't really care about inconsistencies and plotholes, etc.. making money doesn't really mean shit; there are tons of terrible terrible movies that still made money, but have a terrible plot, characters, etc.. I even addressed this in the 1st page of this thread.

It feels like filler to you. That's subjective and has no grounds in an objective argument.

Hes in a feud with Ziggler over a love triangle. I mean how is this NOT a step down from being the unstoppable force as the U.S champion? Cena beating him 3 times in a row was just overkill. Twice is good enough, but 3 times? Jesus christ.

And no shit he doesn't have an unstoppable aura. He was beating jobbers and beatable midcarders for a year. You wanted him to keep doing that and be as any one dimensional monster heel is? No thank you. I don't like the love triangle shit either but at least he's doing something that's not making another random tap.

So you do the exact opposite and have him job in random tag matches and Smackdown matches? Thats not helping much either.

As any actor does with a script. That doesn't make him the Director though, now does it?

Wrestling and other tv shows are completely different. For the record though, Punk wrote his own promos. Cena is the face of the company and has wayyy more leverage.

If you can find somebody with Cena's drawing power that has lost as many times as Cena has, then maybe you'd have a leg to stand on.

If Rock was around for longer, he would've put more people over as he got older. Same for Austin. They just didn't stay on top as long as Cena did.

There is a big difference between HBK and that era compared to Cena and this one. You don't see the weekly bloodbath, the steel chair to the faces, the silly Jackass spots, etc anymore. And HBK never drew as much money as Cena had.

At some point Cena has to step down.. injuries are catching up to him; hes in his late 30's. Time and time again they keep falling back on Cena.. when are they ever going to realize that when Cena's injuries catch up to him, then they are screwed because they relied on him too much instead of building up other stars? Just because Cena is a big draw doesn't give an excuse for him to always be on top.

Please provide evidence to this "youth movement" and how people thought Otunga was the future.

http://www.wrestlezone.com/editorials/171409-wwes-youth-movement

38 years old isn't old. I don't see you talking about Brock Lesnar like that.

Brock Lesnar is a part time attraction.. if he loses he can't regain his momentum, whereas if a full time star loses, he can easily regain his heat by getting some wins back. Wins and loss records matter wayyyy more for part time attractions like Lesnar, Undertaker, and HHH since they wrestle way fewer matches. Also Lesnar is being built up as a beast so he can make someone a mega star. Hopefully that person will be Reigns when he is finally ready.

You mean you haven't figured out that the knight is supposed to beat the dragon?

This has been the same formula since the Territory Days. And it never stopped fans from paying to see it.

It certainly gave Cena a lot of hatred from the older crowd. Its just been so redundant. Fans are getting tired of the same old shit. WWE has to ADAPT, not continue with this formula. It worked before, doesn't mean it will work now. Its just way too forced.

Wrestling in itself is redundant and filled with basic formulas. Yet it continues to make money and keep their targeted demographic happy.

Yeah, and it makes the other demographic unhappy and tired.

By setting aside their differences and ganging up on whatever villain they have to beat? :shrugs: Like in every superhero team movie? Yeah, unpredictable.

Its also interesting to see the plot advance, the characters develop, innovative action scenes, etc.. but I guess you're gonna ignore those parts too.

1. This argument applies to guys like Goldberg and Lesnar too. Hope you feel the same way about them as you do Cena.

Lesnar's style is one of a kind. Goldberg was a wrecking ball; who wouldn't like to see that? Cena's style is just so forced to the older crowd.

2. Totally obvious he'd use duct tape on Batista in their Last Man Standing Match. Completely normal that he'd make Triple H tap out to an STF at Wrestlemania 22or use a Springboard Stunner this "late" into his career. An AA to both Edge and Big Show at the same time? So obvious.

That duct tape was somewhat innovative, but it was also pretty stupid and too PG and kid-friendly for a lot of people. Making someone tap is normal lol. Cena busts out new moves all the time; its nothing new, you can't possibly see this as a unique finish , busting out a new move like really? Thats what you consider unpredictable? Something new would be like benefiting from an interference or dirty tactics. Also that was not a double AA.. he lifted both Big Show and Edge, and Edge got off his back, then he AA'd Big Show only. He obviously couldn't AA both of them at the same time.

3. I bet you thought it was obvious Cena was going to win at SummerSlam.

Its all part of the bigger picture and it makes me sick. Cena wins the U.S title back. Sting will win the title off Rollins and Cena will win the title off Sting.. the face of WWE vs the face of WCW, to establish that the WWE is better. Also Sting is a bigger star so they're gonna try to shove Cena down our throats even more this way. It makes me absolutely sick. I will stop watching as soon as this happens.

Yeah. I fear for Seth Rollins's momentum like I feared for Daniel Bryan's at last year's Summerslam. Or CM Punk a few years ago at Money In The Bank.

For Rollins you are speaking WAYY too soon. We don't know if Cena will beat him the next 3 ppvs like he does for his other opponents. For Daniel Bryan I will give credit to Cena for putting over DB on the mic, and he put him over CLEAN. Same for Punk. But the amount of people who he actually made into a star is incredibly short compared to the time he's spent on top.

You can't find someone as big as Cena who has lost as many times as Cena has, can you?

Like I said earlier if Rock and Austin were around for longer, they would've settled more into a Jericho-like role

 

[therockiswwf]

Hes in a feud with Ziggler over a love triangle. I mean how is this NOT a step down from being the unstoppable force as the U.S champion? Cena beating him 3 times in a row was just overkill. Twice is good enough, but 3 times? Jesus christ.

How do you step up after a Cena feud? He's the top guy, there's really nowhere to go but down.

 

[Crocker]

How do you step up after a Cena feud? He's the top guy, there's really nowhere to go but down.

Feud with other top stars like Reigns, Orton, or Ryback for the IC title. At least then he wouldn't have to lose 3 ppvs in a row to the same person

 

[Spidey Revivey]

You do realize that there are many companies putting in the bare minimum work, but casuals don't really care about inconsistencies and plotholes, etc.. making money doesn't really mean shit; there are tons of terrible terrible movies that still made money, but have a terrible plot, characters, etc.. I even addressed this in the 1st page of this thread.

And this is where you take a good long look at what you wrote and hopefully come to your senses. Making money matters, obviously.

Your mind for "the business" is rather shit. WWE is a public entity that makes more money than anyone here knows what to do with. They make said money by giving people what they want to see. If the people didn't want to see it, they wouldn't come in droves to the arena to watch it.

Rather simple, really.

Hes in a feud with Ziggler over a love triangle. I mean how is this NOT a step down from being the unstoppable force as the U.S champion? Cena beating him 3 times in a row was just overkill. Twice is good enough, but 3 times? Jesus christ.

Has nothing to do with Cena, but the people that write the shows and book the matches. I explained this just a while ago.

So you do the exact opposite and have him job in random tag matches and Smackdown matches? Thats not helping much either.

Then that's what we call a "Can't Win for Losing" argument and drop it, Crocker.

Wrestling and other tv shows are completely different. For the record though, Punk wrote his own promos. Cena is the face of the company and has wayyy more leverage.

They're not that different. They all have a cast of characters that must abide by their universe's rules and follow a script. It just so happens there is also a lot of choreography involved, and a higher rate of injuries. So it's a live athletic production.

And you didn't even make an argument here. You just repeated what you said after I told you that nobody writes their own promos without consulting McMahon. Dude, you're going in circles.

If Rock was around for longer, he would've put more people over as he got older. Same for Austin. They just didn't stay on top as long as Cena did.

You can't prove this right here, so why bring it up? Obviously it's neither here nor there since neither men were around longer and neither men lost as many times as Cena had.

At some point Cena has to step down.. injuries are catching up to him; hes in his late 30's. Time and time again they keep falling back on Cena.. when are they ever going to realize that when Cena's injuries catch up to him, then they are screwed because they relied on him too much instead of building up other stars? Just because Cena is a big draw doesn't give an excuse for him to always be on top.

Actually, that kinda does. It makes the most sense to keep your cash cow on top. It's worked for every big name superstar in the past century, so why not John Cena? Oh he's stale, etc. Things the older audience bitches about but yet continues to make WWE money. A redundant gripe if people come to see him, isn't it?

http://www.wrestlezone.com/editorials/171409-wwes-youth-movement

LOL. A 5 year old article about the main eventers out on injury and guys like Swagger stepping up. That's not a Youth Movement. This is what we call sensationalism, Crocker, and I pray you didn't buy into this. Since the discussion to it is closed and it has no Likes, Tweets, etc I'd say nobody else bought into it either.

Brock Lesnar is a part time attraction..

Cena has been in the midcard since Wrestlemania. Your point?

if he loses he can't regain his momentum,

We've already been down this road where you were proven wrong by KB, The Bar Room, etc.

whereas if a full time star loses, he can easily regain his heat by getting some wins back.

Unless of course it's against Cena, the magical black hole of momentum, as you believe.

Wins and loss records matter wayyyy more for part time attractions like Lesnar, Undertaker, and HHH since they wrestle way fewer matches. Also Lesnar is being built up as a beast so he can make someone a mega star. Hopefully that person will be Reigns when he is finally ready.

Disproved. Sting is by far the biggest part time attraction and he lost to Triple H. Now he is facing Seth Rollins for the title. Wins and losses really don't matter for part time people. But that is besides the point.

It certainly gave Cena a lot of hatred from the older crowd. Its just been so redundant. Fans are getting tired of the same old shit. WWE has to ADAPT, not continue with this formula. It worked before, doesn't mean it will work now. Its just way too forced.

You're looking at the past with rose tinted glasses. Of course the older crowd hates John Cena. They hated Stone Cold and The Rock too because they were foul mouthed assholes that for some reason was getting cheered. Something the older viewers weren't used to if they grew up on pure faces like Hogan and pure heels like Iron Sheik. Might as well say old people have a problem with politics and religions that aren't their own while you're at it.

Yeah, and it makes the other demographic unhappy and tired.

If they were unhappy and tired, don't you think they'd find another wrestling show to watch or attend? See? You can't prove they're unhappy, because they keep going to the see the damn matches.

Its also interesting to see the plot advance, the characters develop, innovative action scenes, etc.. but I guess you're gonna ignore those parts too.

I just told you the things Cena had done that weren't obvious. Talk about ignoring.

And yes- the plot keeps advancing. Cena didn't beat Flair's record. Rollins has to face the man that his boss beat at Wrestlemania. Can he do it or is it true he needs HHH to stay relevant? Plenty of innovative action scenes for a gymnastics play.

Look at that. I named several instances where the plot advanced, characters develop, and they do more than hug in a ring. More going on than Boyhood for sure.

Lesnar's style is one of a kind.

Lmao.

Goldberg was a wrecking ball; who wouldn't like to see that?

The people tired of seeing him do the same thing every match. So...you right?

Cena's style is just so forced to the older crowd.

It's almost as if Cena isn't meant to cater to them. Maybe, just maybe mind you, he was meant to cater to the older crowd's children.

That duct tape was somewhat innovative, but it was also pretty stupid and too PG and kid-friendly for a lot of people.

You are such a cliche. The product was PG. Most that wanted to see Cena were kids. Of course it was kid-friendly. John Cena could visit 500 dying kids and make their day and you'd still hate hi- wait.

Making someone tap is normal lol.

Yeah. Clearly Triple H is just "someone" and not someone who was known for burying the entire roster at one point...something Cena didn't do.

And Triple H was not known for tapping at the time. I mean it happened at one other Wrestlemania to put over someone, but even then it wasn't "normal".

Cena busts out new moves all the time; its nothing new, you can't possibly see this as a unique finish , busting out a new move like really? Thats what you consider unpredictable?

Since the definition of unpredictable is something you can't predict, like John Cena doing a fucking Springboard Stunner, yes. That's what unpredictable means.

Something new would be like benefiting from an interference or dirty tactics.

This was so overdone at one point that you calling it new is beyond laughable.

Also that was not a double AA.. he lifted both Big Show and Edge, and Edge got off his back, then he AA'd Big Show only. He obviously couldn't AA both of them at the same time.

He was positioned to put them both away in that move. You still didn't even realize that that particular moment was unpredictable as well. You're just being bitchy now.

Its all part of the bigger picture and it makes me sick. Cena wins the U.S title back. Sting will win the title off Rollins and Cena will win the title off Sting.. the face of WWE vs the face of WCW, to establish that the WWE is better. Also Sting is a bigger star so they're gonna try to shove Cena down our throats even more this way. It makes me absolutely sick. I will stop watching as soon as this happens.

Your crystal ball failed you already at SummerSlam. I think you should go buy a new one.

For Rollins you are speaking WAYY too soon. We don't know if Cena will beat him the next 3 ppvs like he does for his other opponents. For Daniel Bryan I will give credit to Cena for putting over DB on the mic, and he put him over CLEAN. Same for Punk. But the amount of people who he actually made into a star is incredibly short compared to the time he's spent on top.

Maybe if the people he put over would stop walking out or getting crippling injuries, WWE would have him do that.

But again that's neither here nor there. John Cena has put over more people than anyone in his position ever has. Argue that.

Like I said earlier if Rock and Austin were around for longer, they would've settled more into a Jericho-like role

Since Austin wouldn't even put over a rookie Brock Lesnar, I say you're full of shit and can't provide evidence that there is someone as big as Cena who has lost as many times as Cena has.

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

Imagine BSE in the Wrestlezone Tournament. Every other thread he'd be like "oh my god stop it this has gone too far."

Lol no. I'm just saying that if you want Crocker to stop the Cena hate, then stop responding to him.

 

[Savior of Silence]

Lol no. I'm just saying that if you want Crocker to stop the Cena hate, then stop responding to him.

Or he could show some self control and ignore it. How is it anybody's fault that Crocker keeps responding? What a shit way to view things.

 

[Bernkastel]

Lol no. I'm just saying that if you want Crocker to stop the Cena hate, then stop responding to him.

Yeah... things don't work that way...

Even if a there's no one around to feed it, a troll will not stop trolling.

 

[Crocker]

And this is where you take a good long look at what you wrote and hopefully come to your senses. Making money matters, obviously.

Of course it fucking matters you idiot. I'm saying money doesn't matter when using it to measure how entertaining something is.. it doesn't work that way okay? Get it through your thick skull. See the first page of this thread.

Your mind for "the business" is rather shit. WWE is a public entity that makes more money than anyone here knows what to do with. They make said money by giving people what they want to see. If the people didn't want to see it, they wouldn't come in droves to the arena to watch it.

Blah blah blah blah.. stop talking about WWE's business like you fucking work for that shit. You just love to ignore the rest of my post don't you? Casuals don't care about plot inconsistencies in movies, tv shows, etc.. Walking Dead has a ton of plot inconsistencies yet its the most watched TV show on cable and making a shitload of money. From a business sense, Justin Bieber is making a shitload of money ($200 million net worth), but his music is god awful, look at his album reviews.

Rather simple, really.

Its not as simple and black/white as you think it is. Grow up.

Has nothing to do with Cena, but the people that write the shows and book the matches. I explained this just a while ago.

Its both of their faults. Cena's fault for steam rolling him 3 PPVS in a row while having a ton of backstage leverage, and the creative's fault for hurting his momentum even more by putting him in a shitty storyline.

They're not that different. They all have a cast of characters that must abide by their universe's rules and follow a script. It just so happens there is also a lot of choreography involved, and a higher rate of injuries. So it's a live athletic production.

Really? Pro wrestling is A LOT different than a regular TV show.. for example, the matches; the way it is structured, the wins and losses, etc.. its like a constant competition/sport; can't say the same for a regular tv show though.

And you didn't even make an argument here. You just repeated what you said after I told you that nobody writes their own promos without consulting McMahon. Dude, you're going in circles.

Cena decided the finish of the SummerSlam 2010 match between his team and Nexus.. Hogan and HBK refused to job many times. I'm sure Cena has as much backstage leverage as these guys..

Actually, that kinda does. It makes the most sense to keep your cash cow on top. It's worked for every big name superstar in the past century, so why not John Cena? Oh he's stale, etc. Things the older audience bitches about but yet continues to make WWE money. A redundant gripe if people come to see him, isn't it?

Idk maybe because Cena is getting more and more injuries and getting up there in age?? and the audience is hating him more and more?? Compare his reactions now to reactions 3 years ago. Even in casual crowds you can still hear boos. People don't pay to see him specifically; they pay to see the product as a whole.

LOL. A 5 year old article about the main eventers out on injury and guys like Swagger stepping up. That's not a Youth Movement. This is what we call sensationalism, Crocker, and I pray you didn't buy into this. Since the discussion to it is closed and it has no Likes, Tweets, etc I'd say nobody else bought into it either.

So you're denying that the Youth Movement ever existed? Where in the flying fuck were you in 2011? Also the reason that article didn't get much attention is because it was 5 fucking years ago, when WrestleZone didn't have that many features connected to Twitter, FB, etc.. Here's another proof of the attempted youth movement : http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=205649

If you need more just let me know. Just too lazy to find the links

Cena has been in the midcard since Wrestlemania. Your point?

Hooray, out of the main event picture for 4 months

We've already been down this road where you were proven wrong by KB, The Bar Room, etc.

They CAN regain their momentum, its just a little harder than it is for a full time star, as they don't show up as much. If that was truly the case and you were right, then why did Lesnar beat Punk at SummerSlam before he faced Undertaker at WM? Because if Lesnar lost it would have hurt his credibility a little.

Unless of course it's against Cena, the magical black hole of momentum, as you believe.

Its one thing to lose to Cena one time and end the feud. Its another thing to either lose 3 times in a row, or lose to him twice and the only way you can score a victory is to have 3 other men help you, even when you're some sort of demonic monster heel(Bray Wyatt).

Disproved. Sting is by far the biggest part time attraction and he lost to Triple H. Now he is facing Seth Rollins for the title. Wins and losses really don't matter for part time people. But that is besides the point.

Sting is the biggest part time attraction for different reasons; he was the face of WCW, provides the most nostalgia value, newest signed part timer, etc. Losing to HHH was fine as HHH needed that win to regain some credibility.. Wins and losses do matter for part time people. Why do you think Lesnar won most of his matches before he broke the streak? Its to gain credibility

You're looking at the past with rose tinted glasses. Of course the older crowd hates John Cena. They hated Stone Cold and The Rock too because they were foul mouthed assholes that for some reason was getting cheered. Something the older viewers weren't used to if they grew up on pure faces like Hogan and pure heels like Iron Sheik. Might as well say old people have a problem with politics and religions that aren't their own while you're at it.

Last time I checked Rock and Stone Cold were getting pops that made the stadium explode.

If they were unhappy and tired, don't you think they'd find another wrestling show to watch or attend? See? You can't prove they're unhappy, because they keep going to the see the damn matches.

No because the hardcore fans love wrestling and won't stop watching it. Doesn't mean that they pay to see Cena though.

I just told you the things Cena had done that weren't obvious. Talk about ignoring.

I just retorted those points. Talk about ignoring.

And yes- the plot keeps advancing. Cena didn't beat Flair's record. Rollins has to face the man that his boss beat at Wrestlemania. Can he do it or is it true he needs HHH to stay relevant? Plenty of innovative action scenes for a gymnastics play.

In WWE, yes the storylines do develop. But some of them aren't developed WELL.

Lmao.

Tell me who else has a similar style and character as Lesnar. His success from UFC being implemented to his character makes him one of a kind.

The people tired of seeing him do the same thing every match. So...you right?

I'd rather take a human wrecking ball than a corny guy who "overcomes the odds" somehow.

It's almost as if Cena isn't meant to cater to them. Maybe, just maybe mind you, he was meant to cater to the older crowd's children.

Yes, and the older crowd makes up about 50-60% of the audience, and most of them don't enjoy Cena's character.. so that means that he's not the most entertaining person. Its simple really. Don't be delusional.

You are such a cliche. The product was PG. Most that wanted to see Cena were kids. Of course it was kid-friendly. John Cena could visit 500 dying kids and make their day and you'd still hate hi- wait.

What? You are seriously buying into the make-a-wish propaganda? So annoying.. you're just going in circles with this shit.

Yeah. Clearly Triple H is just "someone" and not someone who was known for burying the entire roster at one point...something Cena didn't do.

HHH has tapped plenty of times. Also the rumors of him burying the roster are so overblown. Who has he actually buried? Maybe hurt Orton's momentum a little in 2004, but thats about it. I see you defendign Cena all the time even when he steamrolled Wyatt and Rusev, so you have no right to complain about HHH.

Since the definition of unpredictable is something you can't predict, like John Cena doing a fucking Springboard Stunner, yes. That's what unpredictable means.

Are you fcking kidding me? I'm talking about the result of the match, not busting out a new move.

This was so overdone at one point that you calling it new is beyond laughable.

You have no idea what the context is.. Of course it is overdone in general, but not for Cena. Cena using dirty tactics or benefitting from interference is fresh, different, and interesting.

He was positioned to put them both away in that move. You still didn't even realize that that particular moment was unpredictable as well. You're just being bitchy now.

He didn't AA both of them though. You clearly didn't watch the match.

Maybe if the people he put over would stop walking out or getting crippling injuries, WWE would have him do that.

Bray Wyatt and Rollins definitely deserve this rub; they are the cornerstones of the future. Hopefully WWE will do right and not have Cena steamroll Rollins multiple PPVS in a row. Also I have no doubt that Cena will put over Reigns one day in a passing of the torch match; hopefully this years WM so Cena can fuck off already.

But again that's neither here nor there. John Cena has put over more people than anyone in his position ever has. Argue that.

Because he has been on top the longest.. I said this already.

Since Austin wouldn't even put over a rookie Brock Lesnar, I say you're full of shit and can't provide evidence that there is someone as big as Cena who has lost as many times as Cena has.

Austin said he would've put over Lesnar, but not on a random episode of Smackdown, which makes sense. A match that big should not happen on free television and have a decisive winner.

How about this.. name one face of the company who has been on top as long as Cena. Now ask yourself why you think he lost the most out of all the face of the companies (Rock, Austin, Hogan)

 

[Spidey Revivey]

Of course it fucking matters you idiot. I'm saying money doesn't matter when using it to measure how entertaining something is.. it doesn't work that way okay? Get it through your thick skull. See the first page of this thread.

The first page was filled with inaccuracies and utter bullshit. That's why so many are arguing with you right now. Why you haven't figured that out and keep praising the mythic first page is anybody's guess.

And yes. It does work that way. A majority pay to see Cena win. Cena wins. He makes the majority happy so they keep paying. That's how it works. Doesn't take a businessman to see that.

Blah blah blah blah.. stop talking about WWE's business like you fucking work for that shit.

Saying obvious things doesn't make me sound like I work with WWE.

You just love to ignore the rest of my post don't you?

Since you can't prove what you say, yes. I do love ignoring it.

Casuals don't care about plot inconsistencies in movies, tv shows, etc.. Walking Dead has a ton of plot inconsistencies yet its the most watched TV show on cable and making a shitload of money. From a business sense, Justin Bieber is making a shitload of money ($200 million net worth), but his music is god awful, look at his album reviews.

None of this had anything to do with what I said. Talk about irrelevant.

Its not as simple and black/white as you think it is. Grow up.

There's irony in a guy who likes bringing up Bieber telling a guy on the internet to grow up.

Its both of their faults. Cena's fault for steam rolling him 3 PPVS in a row while having a ton of backstage leverage, and the creative's fault for hurting his momentum even more by putting him in a shitty storyline.

Give me evidence suggesting it was his idea to beat ANYBODY 3 PPVs in a row. If you can't, please shut up about it.

Really? Pro wrestling is A LOT different than a regular TV show.. for example, the matches; the way it is structured, the wins and losses, etc.. its like a constant competition/sport; can't say the same for a regular tv show though.

We already discussed its similarities and differences. You really enjoy circular arguments.

Cena decided the finish of the SummerSlam 2010 match between his team and Nexus.. Hogan and HBK refused to job many times. I'm sure Cena has as much backstage leverage as these guys..

Prove what you say doesn't come straight from your ass.

Idk maybe because Cena is getting more and more injuries and getting up there in age?? and the audience is hating him more and more?? Compare his reactions now to reactions 3 years ago. Even in casual crowds you can still hear boos. People don't pay to see him specifically; they pay to see the product as a whole.

His revenue, merchandise sales, etc says otherwise.

People do go pay to see people they don't like. Ex. The Yankees, The Global Elite, etc.

So you're denying that the Youth Movement ever existed? Where in the flying fuck were you in 2011?

Watching CM Punk, not David Otunga for one.

Also the reason that article didn't get much attention is because it was 5 fucking years ago, when WrestleZone didn't have that many features connected to Twitter, FB, etc..

We weren't exactly using Windows 95 5 years ago, you mook. Facebook and Twitter were just as popular then as they are now.

Here's another proof of the attempted youth movement : http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=205649

If you need more just let me know. Just too lazy to find the links

Dude, you didn't read that thread, did you? OP got blasted and some called for the thread to be closed. And I find it weird that you defend something being 5 years old, but not something that's 3 years old.

Hooray, out of the main event picture for 4 months

We all know how much that has made you wet.

They CAN regain their momentum, its just a little harder than it is for a full time star, as they don't show up as much. If that was truly the case and you were right, then why did Lesnar beat Punk at SummerSlam before he faced Undertaker at WM? Because if Lesnar lost it would have hurt his credibility a little.

CM Punk was on a descending spiral. We all know this.

Its one thing to lose to Cena one time and end the feud. Its another thing to either lose 3 times in a row, or lose to him twice and the only way you can score a victory is to have 3 other men help you, even when you're some sort of demonic monster heel(Bray Wyatt).

Thank you again for dodging the question I've asked multiple times now:

Can you name ANYBODY as big as Cena who has lost as many times as Cena???

Last time I checked Rock and Stone Cold were getting pops that made the stadium explode.

Once the older guys realized it wasn't their show anymore. Problem with the older guys now is that they think they can ruin the fun for the younger audience by sadly sticking around long after their enjoyment for the product passed.

That's the difference. Some from this generation haven't moved on and act like little asshole children.

No because the hardcore fans love wrestling and won't stop watching it. Doesn't mean that they pay to see Cena though.

Sounds like they need therapy. I mean go to a show just to shit on the guy kids pay to see? Harsh.

I just retorted those points. Talk about ignoring.

In WWE, yes the storylines do develop. But some of them aren't developed WELL.

That's the smarkiest thing I've ever read on these forums. Wait maybe I can find something more cliche than that...

Being the biggest draw does NOT mean that you are the biggest draw.

Ah, there we go. The dumbest thing I've read today.

Tell me who else has a similar style and character as Lesnar. His success from UFC being implemented to his character makes him one of a kind.

Ken Shamrock, Tank Abbot, Sylvester Terkay, every musclehead that remotely resembles Goldberg, etc.

I'd rather take a human wrecking ball than a corny guy who "overcomes the odds" somehow.

That's your preference. Nobody is arguing tastes here. But you said something silly so people are calling you out on it.

And with that in mind, I expect you don't like Daniel Bryan, Rey Mysterio, or CM Punk.

Yes, and the older crowd makes up about 50-60% of the audience,

Ah there we go. Was wondering when you were going to pull out bullshit statistics that nobody can really prove.

and most of them don't enjoy Cena's character.. so that means that he's not the most entertaining person. Its simple really. Don't be delusional.

Let's pretend you're not a moron like dozens have claimed here. Let's say you're right- that half the audience despises him and want nothing to do with him.

So answer that age old question: If he isn't very entertaining, and most want nothing to do with him and are sick of his shit, then pray tell, why do people keep buying his likeness on t shirts and keep seeing his movies? Why do they make him so much money, and in essence, WWE so much money? Why do they insist on having John Cena has the bread winner?

What? You are seriously buying into the make-a-wish propaganda? So annoying.. you're just going in circles with this shit.

You're a sick fuck if you don't understand the importance of what John Cena has done for so many children. You're beyond conceited if you think it's propaganda for making a sick kid's day just a little brighter.

HHH has tapped plenty of times.

Give me some instances before Benoit please. I'll redact the statement if you can.

Also the rumors of him burying the roster are so overblown. Who has he actually buried? Maybe hurt Orton's momentum a little in 2004, but thats about it.

RVD, Booker T, a good run for Kane, a nice title run for Shawn Michaels and Goldberg, and Orton.

I see you defendign Cena all the time

No you don't. I don't even like Cena. But when somebody says something ignorant I feel the need to defend him. I guarantee you half the people that argue with you don't like him either. But we like him more than we like you.

even when he steamrolled Wyatt and Rusev, so you have no right to complain about HHH.

I wasn't complaining about Triple H. Jesus, are you shallow?

Wyatt and Rusev are still heavily featured, and with angles to boot. Booker T went from the 1st possible black World champion to playing patty cake in the midcard until eventually being traded over to the B show.

Are you fcking kidding me? I'm talking about the result of the match, not busting out a new move.

Unpredictable is what you said. Maybe you should choose your words more wisely.

You have no idea what the context is.. Of course it is overdone in general, but not for Cena. Cena using dirty tactics or benefitting from interference is fresh, different, and interesting.

Turn Cena Heel, dammit. Refreshing :sarcasm:

And didn't you just say how shitty Cena applying a dirty tactic (duct tape) was? You don't even know what you want anymore.

He didn't AA both of them though. You clearly didn't watch the match.

You're such a knob. I didn't say that he did. I said he had them both in the position.

You're terrible at this.

Bray Wyatt and Rollins definitely deserve this rub; they are the cornerstones of the future. Hopefully WWE will do right and not have Cena steamroll Rollins multiple PPVS in a row.

Since he is 0-1 right now, I don't think you have a leg to stand on here.

Also I have no doubt that Cena will put over Reigns one day in a passing of the torch match; hopefully this years WM so Cena can fuck off already.

Yeah. Because Reigns is such a proven successor to Cena's mantle. I heard nothing but cheers at the last Royal Rumble.

Because he has been on top the longest.. I said this already.

I take it you don't know who Hulk Hogan is.

Austin said he would've put over Lesnar, but not on a random episode of Smackdown, which makes sense. A match that big should not happen on free television and have a decisive winner.

Because of Austin's ego.

How about this.. name one face of the company who has been on top as long as Cena. Now ask yourself why you think he lost the most out of all the face of the companies (Rock, Austin, Hogan)

I already did. Hulk Hogan. And if I were as smart as Bernkastel, I'd say Sammartino. I don't need to look at their W-L records to know neither men lost as much as Cena has.

Now that I answered your question, answer mine-

Who has been as big as Cena who has also lost as much as Cena?

 

[Con T.]

So, what happens first?

A. Crocker actually makes a post anywhere but the prison and bar room?

B. Crocker explains why he feels it is appropriate to interrupt someone during dinner?

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

Or he could show some self control and ignore it. How is it anybody's fault that Crocker keeps responding? What a shit way to view things.

I'm not taking up for Crocker or blaming others for his trolling. I'm just saying you all really aren't helping things.

 

[Dagger Dias]

So, what happens first?

A. Crocker actually makes a post anywhere but the prison and bar room?

B. Crocker explains why he feels it is appropriate to interrupt someone during dinner?

Neither, for three reasons.

1) He's back in Prison so he can't post anywhere else anyway.

2) He apparently refuses to share why he needed to interrupt someone during their dinner.

3) He's an idiot.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

Like a phoenix with Polio.

 

[BringThePain834]

Him being banned for now actually made me think he got the permanent ban.... Well at least he went back to prison, and can be this forum's version of James Holmes

 

[Dagger Dias]

Him being banned for now actually made me think he got the permanent ban.... Well at least he went back to prison, and can be this forum's version of James Holmes

He did get banned, if you're going by LBK's definition of "banned".

 

[Crocker]

Uhh so why exactly did I get banned/ put in prison? For calling Killjoy a WWE apologist or having a minority opinion? Just want some clarification instead of "not learning to shut up" and "tired of your WWE apologist bullshit".

 

[Dagger Dias]

Uhh so why exactly did I get banned/ put in prison? For calling Killjoy a WWE apologist or having a minority opinion? Just want some clarification instead of "not learning to shut up" and "tired of your WWE apologist bullshit".

For breaking this rule:

D. Pissing off Staff: We will not put up with it. If you are being persistently and intentionally annoying to a Staff member, the Staff member has every right to infract or ban you. Do not be afraid to discuss and debate Staff members; just do not “Troll” a Staff member.

 

[Crocker]

For breaking this rule:

I still don't understand why Killjoy was so mad at me

 

[Dagger Dias]

I still don't understand why Killjoy was so mad at me

Likely for the same reason that countless other members of this forum are.