Did the WWE screw up with CM Punk

[FlairFan2003]

WWE needs a strong main event, World Title caliber heel. Not a newbie that fans are taking a long time to get used to (Del Rio, now a good guy), not some occassional guest star who appears for one storyline every few months, has blow off match and disappears (Lesnar), not a rising star not yet considered by the audience a top tier guy (Swagger, although he is coming along).

Punk is a great heel. He is charismatic, can cut short, cookie cutter promos that are effective and do long, involved diatribes that are engaging and entertain. In the ring he uses his smallish size to his advantage, as a hero it helps cultivate the underdog appeal, as a heel, it cultivates an image of sneakiness, rulebreaking cunning, he's the modern day Tully Blanchard in that respect. With Orton's outside the ring issues it becomes more of a gamble to consistently book him on top of the card. Batista is gone and not coming back. Same with Edge, who filled this role very capably from 2005 on. HHH seems more interested in his backstage duties, unless he wants to get in the ring full time for a long run he isnt the answer, although he is a great heel. These days he's better suited as fan fav guest appearance, the opposite of Lesnar.

Punk is also fairly popular with audience. They will cheer him in an instant when the time comes for his next hero run. If he remains a major star for another 6-10 years then he'll inevitably suffer "Ric Flair Syndrome" where no matter who he is booked against and how he is portrayed large portions of the audience will cheer for him. Even then he can be a successful character, a tweener type who leans more towards picking villains as his adversaries. Austin had the same problem, once people really fell for him there was no making him a full fledged heel (although WWE tried extremely hard in 2001).

Bottom line, WWE needed a legit main event bad guy to oppose Rock before WrestleMania and build up Cena, Punk is the only guy on the card capable. Despite the short time frame to build interest he'll find a way to make his WM match vs Taker exciting and memorable as well. There are likely more title runs in his future. Honestly, looking at the roster today, who other than maybe Cena can you comfortable say do you really think has more title runs in him other than CM Punk ?

 

[FlairFan2003]

Originally Posted by schaeffershawn

And my point with Macho is he could have been a bigger star then Hogan had he not been fed to Hogan. And really your going to sit there and say the dusty feud was a highlight for Macho. He went from being the number 2 face to jobbing to a fat guy in yellow pokadots. Macho was a huge star and an Icon, but he could have been bigger then Hogan because he was better all around then Hogan.


I have to take offense to this one...Although Dusty Rhodes late 80s WWE run wasnt great, during the decade of the 80s he was WAY Bigger for a longer time than Savage. Jobbing to Dusty wasnt a huge come down for Savage based on Rhodes status in the industry. If Rhodes had been utilized better during that run no one would even think about it. Plus, didnt Savage win some of those matches, he also beat Hogan (albeit by Count Out) in virtually all of his re matches post WM 5.

Really, the only time I felt bad for Savage was when the asked him to put over Ultimate Warrior at WM. That guy couldnt hold Savage's jock strap and his two year tear, while impressive, was nothing but a foot note on the decade compared to Savage's contributions. If UW had actually continued his path to stardom post 1990 maybe Id feel differently about this one but even as a young fan watching I couldnt believe they were going to have Savage cleanly lose to this guy. Goldberg was just as big a sensation circa 97-99 but he had more wrestling ability than Warrior (though the bar was admittedly set pretty low).

 

[Chicago1989]

In my opinion, CM Punk was better as a babyface than as a heel now, because FOR ONCE, Punk was a top babyface that fans really got behind on other than John Cena. It just felt like a breath of fresh air. Finally, someone stepped up and started selling merchandise off the ass, was getting droves of older fans to come to the shows, and was making WWE entertaining to watch.

I understand that Punk turned heel because he must've felt that he would've always played second fiddle to Cena, but Punk was OVER than he ever was, and it all went down the toilet when he turned heel. And it once again made it be known that John Cena was the top babyface over everyone.

 

[aliasv2]

Personally the WWE haven't fucked up with Punk...he is an excellent heel and an excellent face. Either way I find him extremely entertaining, and I believe where the WWE is getting a bit more edgier he will be the sort of person that you will love to hate. Like HHH back in the day

 

[Jack-Hammer]

When you consider how much money CM Punk has brought into the WWE over the course of the last 1.5 years or so, I don't really see how you can think that they "screwed up" with CM Punk.

CM Punk, whether a heel or babyface, is extremely over with audiences. Punk generates interest, he generates activity, he's helped generate big buyrates, he's sold a ton of merchandise ranging from t-shirts to DVDs to hoodies to caps to posters. All you have to do is look at his match against Cena on Raw a few weeks ago. Listen to the crowd reaction to everything they were doing. Look at the heel response he's gotten so far during his build up towards WrestleMania against Taker. Punk has delivered for WWE. If he hadn't, then I certainly don't believe Vince would have given Punk the longest World Championship reign the WWE has seen in more than a generation.

WWE has made a few mistakes with Punk. For instance, I think they should have kept him away from television for a longer period of time after he beat Cena at MITB 2011. I also would have had him go over Triple H, even though Nash ultimately helped Trips score a win, in their single match against one another. However, just because WWE hasn't done EVERYTHING I think they could have or possibly should have done with Punk doesn't mean they screwed up.

 

[schaeffershawn]

I would say my memory of that period is pretty good considering, as you state Jericho was still trying to break in to the upper card and I seem to remember him beating HHH for the title and then having it taken away and getting a monster pop for the win in 2000. But I digress in 1999 Austin main evented 9 of12 PPVS as the top face, try to guess who the other three were built around. Rock was already on par with Austin in terms of popularity by that point. While you are correct that Austin was not around much in 2000 he was still a center of many storylines. Foley as would have it took over the number 2 face spot while Austin was injured until he retired at wrestlemaina2000. And then was commissioner and still driving storylines against the McMahons and HHH, not to mention getting bigger pops then fulltime guys. Austin was back in ring by that November and on TV by October. Which means from October of 2000 to April of 2001 you had two top faces, but hey that’s only 7 months. Incidentally he co-main evented 3 PPVS that year as a face. He also entered as a face in 4 PPVS for 2001. You had several heels like Angle and HHH. The reason Austin’s heel turn did not work had nothing to do with the things you stated it was because they made him look silly as a heel. The period when he was with HHH as the two man power trip he was getting great heat. When he started needing hugs from Vince and crap like that is when it failed. On the other hand fans turned on Rock when he became a part-timer, period. After his initial time as a heel the guy was so over he could be either with ease. By the time of his last heel turn he was a part time guy, kind of like today, except without the nostalgia. So as I stated before two top faces and if you count Angle two top heels, throughout the majority of that time.
And yes the Hogan Macho feud was great but again the point was Savage could have been a bigger star/face had he not been jobbed out to Hogan. The fact that it still was great is irrelevant to what could have made the 80’s period even more successful. Especially if you consider how easy it was to create heels back then. Savage went from being the guy to jobbing to the fat guy in pocka dots within a year. And while Dusty may have been great in the NWA he was ajoke in the WWE and they never played up on his past in the NWA so his respect in the industry is irrelevant, because Vince obviously did not respect him. That is just a fact. On the other hand Hogan put the guy with no long term potential Warrior over, because he knew eventually Vince would recall him and he still was main eventing most PPVS by that point.
As for the guys I mentioned being top heels. You can never make new stars and get them to that level if the part timers keep coming in and pushing those guys further down the pole. Ziggler was getting great heat when he first got AJ and Big E. So obviously lets job him out to everyone. I could give several other examples, but that would be pointless, as that is more about how the WWE screws up in general.

 

[#tamale]

Jericho was still trying to break in to the upper card and I seem to remember him beating HHH for the title and then having it taken away and getting a monster pop for the win in 2000.

Yeah and what happened after that? Nothing. He was finally getting noticed but Jericho even states that he wasn't ready for the title. Hell, Jericho is my favorite wrestler and he was nowhere near the level of Triple H or The Rock at that time.

But I digress in 1999 Austin main evented 9 of12 PPVS as the top face, try to guess who the other three were built around.

What did I say in my original post....

Well you should have gotten your facts straight. Austin was injured and storyilne wise was run over by Rikishi in the latter part of 99. Triple H had just become a top heel around this time and Rock had just become a face. Austin was barely seen on TV for nearly a year. Rock and Triple H feuded throughout this time and 2000 as well.

Let me try this again. Austin was injured, Rock was the next man up. Triple H was now the main heel after Undertaker and that god awful Corporate Ministry.

Which means from October of 2000 to April of 2001 you had two top faces, but hey that’s only 7 months.

And what did I post...Austin feuded with Triple H. Rock feuded with Angle for the WWE Championship. And then we got the build towards Wrestlemania where Austin turned heel.

The reason Austin’s heel turn did not work had nothing to do with the things you stated it was because they made him look silly as a heel.

Because they had nothing else to go to. They made him betray WWF to go to WCW and it still didn't work. Fans didn't buy into it because that wasn't his character. Rock should have turned heel at Wrestlemania, not Austin.

On the other hand fans turned on Rock when he became a part-timer, period.

Rock is part timer right now, gets a great reaction. No, fans turned on him because if you remember, he became Hollywood Rock. He could easily turn from face to heel back in those days.

So as I stated before two top faces and if you count Angle two top heels, throughout the majority of that time.

I agree with you to an extent, only you fail to realize that what I'm pointing out is that during that time frame Austin and The Rock where rarely two top faces that feuded with Triple H. Earlier part of 99 The Rock was still a heel. Triple H was still a face. Latter part of 99, Rock is main event face and Triple H is main event heel. Austin unfortunately gets injured. Rock and Triple H carry the load until Austin's return.

And yes the Hogan Macho feud was great but again the point was Savage could have been a bigger star/face had he not been jobbed out to Hogan.

Hogan was still outdrawing him. Again, Savage was the number two guy in the WWF. One of the most popular wrestlers in the world today. He just couldn't reach Hogan's level and noboby could at that time. He was damn close though.

On the other hand Hogan put the guy with no long term potential Warrior over, because he knew eventually Vince would recall him and he still was main eventing most PPVS by that point.

Everyone in the world thought Warrior was going to lead WWF into the 90s. I will say though that Hogan loves to use what happened to Warrior as an excuse.

As for the guys I mentioned being top heels. You can never make new stars and get them to that level if the part timers keep coming in and pushing those guys further down the pole.

They still get their TV time don't they. And full timers like Ziggler should be embarassed that someone like Brock Lesnar can get a great heel reaction and they get nothing. You know why it works for Brock; because he has created a character. A character that people don't like. A merc who is only in this for the money and does anything he wants without reprecussion. Fans don't like that. Mark Henry comes back and gets an immediate heel reaction. His character is a monster who will add you to his Hall of Pain. What's Dolph's character? The Show-off?

Anyway, most of the posters in this thread don't agree with you. WWE did not screw CM Punk up.

 

[Leveller]

In short no they didnt. They gave punk everything and he went with it. Longest reign in 25 years, feuds with Rock, Kane, Y2j and Cena, pretty much free running on the mic. He is in a cushy position.

However, the creative team rushed his face push and didnt exactly give consideration as to who could have been his big heel feud. HHH could have been good as the corporate who wanted rid of him for speaking his mind too much.

 

[VinnieSunshine]

CM Punk is a better heel than he is a face. I love his character either way, but you can tell he tries to be a little bit more reserved when he is a face. As a heel he can let loose a little more.

I honestly can't fathom how his feud/match would be with Taker if roles were reversed. Punk taking the urn, that's not something he would do as a face. How could WWE write that feud if Punk was the face?

Punk heel > Punk face...though not my much. Punk is good as either, but is ratio as far as his character in WWE is higher as a heel than a face.

I don't think WWE wasted or used him wrong at all. Punk was at the top of his game as either. He was WWE champ as both during his run. as a matter of fact, he spent most of it as a face.

 

[BrookeDudley]

CM Punk is an awesome heel and a face, but I'd rather see him as a heel. He is such a good bad guy. CM Punk has made a name for himself and Vince capitalized on that. He knew Punk had some buzz and he put the title on him. Punk stormed in and once it died down, he lost the strap. As a face, he was good, but he would be a top face for a little while. It would die down. He's a heel. He should stay a heel.

 

[Pedigree1]

Punk is one of the few superstars ever that could be both face and Heel and make em both look absolutely terrific. But personally I love Punk as a heel. This past Monday Night Raw,proved it again. Playing catch with the Urn tossing it around like a football,was just so classic.

Plus the Paul Bearer imitation was just hilarious. Punk right now is as hot as the fires of hell IMO. But one thing they should have done was still have Punk as champion facing Taker in a streak vs streak match. I wonder though,If Paul had passed away before Royal Rumble(RIP by the way Mr William Moody)would Punk still have lost to the rock at RR?

 

[schaeffershawn]

Again I am not saying Punk is not a great heel. But what I am suggesting is that if you have him be the one to get rid of John Laurnitas you have better build to his trun because he can say he literally did everything for the fans including getting rid of Laurniatas and still got no respect. Further it gives the whol Cena worst year of my life crap eben more gumption because than he does not even have that.


As I stated above with Rock a face by June of 99 and main eventing and co main eventing PPVS and Austin active til November of 99 and even when he was injured being heavily promoted you still had two top faces. Aside from which beofre you had rock turn face you had Foley and DX taking the number 2 face spots, and both of those were main eveting and putting asses in seats. Which again maintains my point that business is best when you have multiple people ontop in both teh face and heel spots.

 

[BK Styles]

Ehhhhhh......not really. On one hand, I enjoyed Punk as a face, though that was mainly because I'm a huge Punk fan and it was nice to actually cheer him when I was meant to!

But on the flipside, Punk is just a better heel. He was good as a face, but his overall character (calls himself the best in the world, straight-edge, wants respect) lends itself much more to the bad guy character. I don't think I've ever heard a face moan and complain so much from when Punk was a good guy. He was a bit smarmy and bitchy, and didn't really come across as a badass face. Don't get me wrong, he was good at it, and could back it up in the ring. But it just didn't really fit Punk.

Not only that, but look at the top faces and heels of each brand without Punk.

RAW
Faces: Rock (part time), Cena, Triple H (part time) and Ryback
Heels: Brock Lesnar (part time), Ziggler (shared with SD) and occasionally Henry and Show (primarily SD)

SMACKDOWN
Faces: Sheamus, Del Rio and Orton
Heels: Big Show & Henry (occasionally on RAW), Swagger, Ziggler (current SD MITB holder, sometimes on RAW)

Heels not affiliated with either brand: The Shield

So Raw suffers on the top heel front, as none of their full-time heels are actually based on their show. There's no real bad guy foil to Cena there, and if you take out the part timer and the guys who spend a lot of time on SD, they don't have a resident main-event heel there. Put Punk in there, however, and all of a sudden things look a little healthier.

Not only that, but when you compare him to every other full-time heel in the company, you have to say he looks a cut above. Punk isn't really sharing that spot at all; he is THE bad guy, and not just the cowardly bad guy either; he can back it up in the ring and is a legitimate threat to anyone. Not the cowardly 'Miz' heel, who suffered due to a lack of solid, clean wins.

And that brings me onto my final point. If Punk was a face at the moment, would he realistically be joint top face, or third in line behind Rock and Cena? Realistically, the very most Punk could hope for is to be level with Cena. He'll never be the face of the company; he's not WWE's ideal posterboy. They'll use him, and they'll happily keep him at the top, but not at the very top if Cena is there. As a heel however, he is THE heel. He isn't sharing that spot, and doesn't have to settle as the 'joint-' anything. Instead, he's the bad guy of the company, and if you hear him talk about which he prefers, you'll know that this is the exact spot he's always wanted. The only negative is how long it's taken for Punk to cement this status.

So, did WWE screw up with CM Punk? Look at the last two years he's had; his success both in the ring, outside of it and financially, and consider his winning record against wrestlings biggest face, and the fact that he has a spot he shares with no-one. When you have, you'll probably rethink that question.

 

[BobbyRoode444]

Toward the end of his face run he looked to be losing momentum. I remember thinking about how Ryder got a bigger pop than Punk on a couple RAW's.

Now, instead of a heel turn they could have had Punk as the one going up against Johnny and saving the day instead of Cena (as the poster pointed out). Doing so would have greatly extended his face run.

Maybe the WWE did this because they felt they didn't have the depth to have 2 top faces. Look at the heels Punk faced in his title reign as a face...
won belt from Del Rio and then defended at PPV's against (in order)...
Miz/Del Rio
Ziggler
Miz/Jericho/Kingston/Truth/Ziggler (chamber)
Jericho
Jericho
Daniel Bryan
Kane/Daniel Bryan
Daniel Bryan

Don't get me wrong, the series of matches vs Bryan were great but I think they were desperate for a full time top heel. Miz, Del Rio, Ziggler, Jericho, Bryan, and Kane werent filling that void.

 

[Wald]

Vince doesn't like having two top faces at one time, it isn't that he screwed things up with Macho Man and Punk, it's just that he likes to go all in with one guy and try to make that guy a massive star. Look at the history of it.

When Hogan was his guy you had the likes of Macho Man breaking out as a face, Ricky Steamboat in the mid-card and a heel roster that could have stepped into the world title scenario with Rick Rude, Ted DiBiase and Mr.Perfect. None of them were allowed take from Hogan though because Hogan had been appointed as the WWF's flag bearer. So Macho had to turn heel, Steamboat stayed in the mid-card and Rude, Perfect and DiBiase never got a run with the belt. We can argue about what we think should have happened til the cows come home but it can't be argued that Vince's tactic worked can it?

Next up to get the full 'Vince's Guy' treatment was the Warrior. This is a perfect example of Vince simply not wanting two guys on top of the pile. Hogan was supposed to pass the torch to Warrior and quietly slip back into the role that Andre the Giant had pre and post Wrestlemania 3. Hogan wasn't done though and Warrior wasn't ready, but if Warrior had been ready I don't think Hogan would ever have found his way back to Vince's top table again.

I would say after that that HBK was next to get the full star treatment. Bret was the top guy in the company from 1993 to 1996/97, but Vince never really put the full machine behind him. He did that with Michaels though with the Kliq Kam, SuperCenaesque comeback matches and merchandise. As soon as HBK hit the top Bret was out of favour and Diesel was out the door.

Austin was the next top guy, running from 1998 to his injury in 1999. The Rock obviously took over whilst he was out, but that wouldn't have happened had Austin remained active. Rock was getting a massive amount of cheers when he beat Foley at Survivor Series 1998, he was ready to be a top face. Instead Vince turned him heel to work with Austin as the face. Like Macho vs Hogan, we can argue should it have happened but we can't argue that it wasn't effective. When Austin was fully recovered in late 2000 Vince had switched to the Rock being his number one guy, so Austin had to go heel.

Cena and Punk is just the next installment of Vince's ideology. We could argue that Punk was ready to take the number one face spot coming off his worked shoot promo, that he could have brought back an older fanbase etc. but it really would have required Vince switching his mindset from Cena being his number one guy to Punk. Cena would have had to have gone heel and been pushed back to being the number two guy on the roster in Vince's mind.

I don't think Vince will ever choose a CM Punk over a John Cena, so I think Punk is better served as the number one heel in the company than the number two face.

 

[lowandmighty]

Hell no CM Punk just isn't face material. Look at him. At his face.

He's a heel by the laws of nature. He looks like a rock star with all his tats and everything and he has the kind of face that could scare children, look at his eyes then look at Cena's eyes. The two guys are about the same age but punk looks way more tired and psychotic presumably from kayfabe plotting the downfall of all his foes deep into the night.

Cena has the colorful good guy look they can put on kids lunch boxes. CM Punk looks evil.

CM Punk could be a face and get huge pops from the live crowd but he can't convince little kids who don't understand wrestling like most of the live crowd.

As far as Hogan and Macho Man go for wrestlemania 5 it was a similar kind of situation. WWE know what they're doing most of the time. I definitely wouldn't say I could do anything better.

 

[boywithbluehanger]

I actually posted a portion of this elsewhere but it applies to how I feel about CM Punk's current character.

Overall, I feel like Punk's character from 2011 onward is almost entirely a WWE creation. In the same vein that Cody Rhodes' characters have been. Punk's been pushed as far as they deemed necessary even in the months when he was mostly not generating much of a response. His title reign was mostly uninteresting save for the feuds with Cena (in 2012) and Ryback. Even his work with The Rock seemed pointless in more ways than one in that he never had a clear gripe about why he hated The Rock. He never alluded as to why he called him an ass-kisser in 2011 and backtracked by claiming to not have the same complaints as Cena's prior ones regarding Rock being a part-timer. So that's really only 2 good feuds in over a year's time.

I think Punk's ability on the mic is over-appreciated. He's certainly as comfortable as Cena on the mic (which is sadly as good as we have today) but his delivery leaves so much to be desired. Getting on the mic and essentially having diarrhea of the mouth is not entertaining nor good for getting people excited for his matches. He should learn to time his zingers and lines wisely when giving them because most of the time, the crowd does not widely react to the things he says simply because he's not saying it in an interesting way.

Also this whole pipebomb aspect of his character is too forced. He almost never says anything that sticks with the audience. Saying a cheap insult and then yelling "PYPEBAHHHMB!", does not make what you said seem more hurtful.

When it comes down to it, the reason why his character struggles to be as successful as The Rock or Cena's is mainly because he doesn't have a firm understanding of who his current character is. He had a very good understanding of his character during his SES days but it seemed that once that ended, he began to just go through the motions more.

He's a guy who's a jerk for no reason. He has everything to prove yet is never focused on ANY of those things long enough to make them a part of who he is. Does he hate the fans? Yes and he wants their respect! Wait, no he doesn't care about the fans. Does he hate Cena? No he said he respects Cena more than any of the guys in the back. Wait..that's not right, he said he DOESN'T respect Cena because he's afforded title matches for doing nothing! Does he respect Undertaker? Yes, he said that The Streak is a feat that is nothing short of amazing and would want nothing more than to defeat The Undertaker for further validation that he's the Best in the World. Wait...no he doesn't respect the Undertaker because he's dissing his dead father and the source of The UT's power (the urn) by purposely dropping it on the ground.

I like aspects of Punk (mainly before his WWE championship run) but even I can admit that his character from 2011-now is not as great as the people on here would have you believe.

 

[Mustang Sally]

Much of the misgiving I have about Punk concerns a factor that may (or may not) simply be a part of his act: How much of what he says on stage reflects what he actually thinks of himself? If his "best in the world" rant is just the key to his ring persona, then I give him all the credit in the world; he's a better actor than I thought.

But after all the rhetoric from the Summer of Punk (2011) with "I was almost out the door," I really wonder if he's become so self-important that he thinks the company should revolve around him. The other day, I read that he was "once again at odds with WWE" and it made me think; What does he want now.....a piece of the concession money?

Again, I'd like to think it's all part of the act and that he's simply better at it than most people. Certainly, his speaking ability can't be dismissed; the guy can bring it on the mic. But is he truly willing to walk away from it all if a lot of his discontent is real? Is Creative in a continual fight with him regarding the way he wants things done with his character?.....or is he just a wrestler performing as directed?

The fact this uncertainty exists at all is an indication that he's good. The question is whether he thinks he's better than he really is.

 

[Yawa]

Truth is, they turned the wrong guy heel. John Cena should have attacked the Rock that night at Raw 1000. Punk should have walked away, and Cena should have done it. A perfect double swerve.

Logic always dictates that the staler face should turn heel at the moment you least expect it. Punk is a great heel, make no mistake, but at the time he had nowhere to go but up. Cena was in the way. He had long since peaked as a face. Having Cena heel and keeping the booking otherwise the same would have done wonders for other talents like Ryback and Ziggler as well. The heat and appeal of the TLC match alone with a heel Cena would have done wonders for Ziggy.

Alas logic doesnt dictate anything in the WWE anymore and it has been a long time since Vince has had it in him to do whats best for business over what's best for his ego ( at least since Heyman was booking Smackdown better than Raw in the early 2000's, how Vince could shit all over something that was making him money and doing well for his company is beyond me, but that is how he works now and hence why we suffer), and as such a heel Cena may be case of too little, too late now.

Sadly the ones who suffer the most because of this inanity are not us, or even the execs, it's the talent who no doubt could have broken out during this time and instead are sitting around with no consistent direction, wallowing in their own wasted potential.

Sad

 

[shooter_mcgavin]

Truth is, they turned the wrong guy heel. John Cena should have attacked the Rock that night at Raw 1000. Punk should have walked away, and Cena should have done it. A perfect double swerve.

My thoughts exactly, on the 1000th RAW Punk turning heel just reaffirms the status quo of the company. It does not change anything or make the product any more compelling, in fact, it reassures us the WWE pretty much decided to play it safe.

If Cena turned heel instead of Punk and Punk got his "edge" back as a face (the same guy that did the pipe bomb before MITB 2012). It would have sent shockwaves in the industry and would have increased viewer interest with the product.

It would also have been different and refreshing instead of what we got.

 

[Dirk]

Punk is a small, weird-looking guy with a lot of talent. Punk is perfect for the lovable underdog-who-sticks-it-to-the-man role. He could do a whiny version of what Austin did with McMahon for the rest of his career and it'd be great.

Heel Punk, post "Pipebomb", is going 'round, saying what a menace he is, it's fucking ridiculous. Turn the man face, make him the leader of a gang or give him a bodyguard, but not this. Punk will NEVER be a successful bully on his own, especially to Cena, but he's too conceited to admit it and so are his fans.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

CM Punk isn't as over as a face as he is a heel. There isn't a Vince conspiracy against small guys, that's stupid. Vince has a conspiracy against ideas that don't make him money. Punk as Cena's foil is the money character. Punk is a lot like Roddy Piper. He is over as a face, but gets to an extra level as a heel. Also, no, baby face CM Punk was not more over than Cena. Cena gets 100% of the audience to make noise. Just like heel Punk. The older audience likes baby face Punk a lot, but the others really don't see, that into him.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Truth is, they turned the wrong guy heel. John Cena should have attacked the Rock that night at Raw 1000. Punk should have walked away, and Cena should have done it. A perfect double swerve.

Logic always dictates that the staler face should turn heel at the moment you least expect it. Punk is a great heel, make no mistake, but at the time he had nowhere to go but up. Cena was in the way. He had long since peaked as a face. Having Cena heel and keeping the booking otherwise the same would have done wonders for other talents like Ryback and Ziggler as well. The heat and appeal of the TLC match alone with a heel Cena would have done wonders for Ziggy.

Alas logic doesnt dictate anything in the WWE anymore and it has been a long time since Vince has had it in him to do whats best for business over what's best for his ego ( at least since Heyman was booking Smackdown better than Raw in the early 2000's, how Vince could shit all over something that was making him money and doing well for his company is beyond me, but that is how he works now and hence why we suffer), and as such a heel Cena may be case of too little, too late now.

Sadly the ones who suffer the most because of this inanity are not us, or even the execs, it's the talent who no doubt could have broken out during this time and instead are sitting around with no consistent direction, wallowing in their own wasted potential.

Sad

"Stale" based on what? If Cena is still getting a loud reaction and selling mercy, he's not stale. You and other fans that fancy themselves as "smart" who spend hours talking about him and scream until you lose your voice booing him maybe just see him as a heel. Not like he does bad guy things, but like, he's a bad guy to you. Noise is noise. Unless people are leaving (they're not), noise is noise. Cena is a LOT more dynamic where he is. He's an interesting character because of the reaction and how other guys play into it. He's not a traditional face or heel and he's not a bullshit tweeners (another word for a bad boy baby face which is still a fucking baby face). He is the only guy in the ring who gets chants. It's "lets go Cena" "Cena sucks". You rarely hear the other guy getting anything unless its Rock. This means that the audience cares more about him one way or another than the other guy. If Cena were as stale as you think, there'd be a steep drop off in numbers, merch, and a lot less noise. Cena haters simply aren't as smart as they think they are. They have no business sense at all. In 2013, knowing it's a show and not actual combat and talking about it on the Internet doesn't make you smart.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Vince doesn't like having two top faces at one time, it isn't that he screwed things up with Macho Man and Punk, it's just that he likes to go all in with one guy and try to make that guy a massive star. Look at the history of it.

When Hogan was his guy you had the likes of Macho Man breaking out as a face, Ricky Steamboat in the mid-card and a heel roster that could have stepped into the world title scenario with Rick Rude, Ted DiBiase and Mr.Perfect. None of them were allowed take from Hogan though because Hogan had been appointed as the WWF's flag bearer. So Macho had to turn heel, Steamboat stayed in the mid-card and Rude, Perfect and DiBiase never got a run with the belt. We can argue about what we think should have happened til the cows come home but it can't be argued that Vince's tactic worked can it?

Next up to get the full 'Vince's Guy' treatment was the Warrior. This is a perfect example of Vince simply not wanting two guys on top of the pile. Hogan was supposed to pass the torch to Warrior and quietly slip back into the role that Andre the Giant had pre and post Wrestlemania 3. Hogan wasn't done though and Warrior wasn't ready, but if Warrior had been ready I don't think Hogan would ever have found his way back to Vince's top table again.

I would say after that that HBK was next to get the full star treatment. Bret was the top guy in the company from 1993 to 1996/97, but Vince never really put the full machine behind him. He did that with Michaels though with the Kliq Kam, SuperCenaesque comeback matches and merchandise. As soon as HBK hit the top Bret was out of favour and Diesel was out the door.

Austin was the next top guy, running from 1998 to his injury in 1999. The Rock obviously took over whilst he was out, but that wouldn't have happened had Austin remained active. Rock was getting a massive amount of cheers when he beat Foley at Survivor Series 1998, he was ready to be a top face. Instead Vince turned him heel to work with Austin as the face. Like Macho vs Hogan, we can argue should it have happened but we can't argue that it wasn't effective. When Austin was fully recovered in late 2000 Vince had switched to the Rock being his number one guy, so Austin had to go heel.

Cena and Punk is just the next installment of Vince's ideology. We could argue that Punk was ready to take the number one face spot coming off his worked shoot promo, that he could have brought back an older fanbase etc. but it really would have required Vince switching his mindset from Cena being his number one guy to Punk. Cena would have had to have gone heel and been pushed back to being the number two guy on the roster in Vince's mind.

I don't think Vince will ever choose a CM Punk over a John Cena, so I think Punk is better served as the number one heel in the company than the number two face.

So Vince has this magical ability to get guys super over? Lol. You don't get it. Vince would LOVE to have 2 guys as over as Cena. It doesn't happen. Punk, and only Punk, didn't get Punk that over. Vince realized that maybe Punk gets a reaction from one part of the audience and the turned him heel because the portion that cheers him will cheer him regardless and the portion that was indifferent will hate him. It's great. He's the perfect foil to Cena. That's better anyways. What the hell kind of movie would have 2 good guys? The Dark Knight? More like Batman and Superman tell jokes over a cup of coffee.

 

[Yawa]

"Stale" based on what? If Cena is still getting a loud reaction and selling mercy, he's not stale. You and other fans that fancy themselves as "smart" who spend hours talking about him and scream until you lose your voice booing him maybe just see him as a heel. Not like he does bad guy things, but like, he's a bad guy to you. Noise is noise. Unless people are leaving (they're not), noise is noise. Cena is a LOT more dynamic where he is. He's an interesting character because of the reaction and how other guys play into it. He's not a traditional face or heel and he's not a bullshit tweeners (another word for a bad boy baby face which is still a fucking baby face). He is the only guy in the ring who gets chants. It's "lets go Cena" "Cena sucks". You rarely hear the other guy getting anything unless its Rock. This means that the audience cares more about him one way or another than the other guy. If Cena were as stale as you think, there'd be a steep drop off in numbers, merch, and a lot less noise. Cena haters simply aren't as smart as they think they are. They have no business sense at all. In 2013, knowing it's a show and not actual combat and talking about it on the Internet doesn't make you smart.

No I'm sorry but that line of thinking is just naive. If Vince was solely interested in making money and building bigger fan bases he wouldn't have buried WCW and ECW after purchasing them. The fact that they managed to keep exactly less than zero of either companies fans after acquisition ( as evidenced by the still stagnant and declining ratings and the fact that the biggest drops happened right after it happened) is ridiculous. Also, then why did he sabotage Smackdown in the early 2000's after Paul Hetman started producing an exciting and compelling product for no other reason than it was successful. Vince as Punk said is currently "a millionaire who should be a billionaire, despite himself." Make no mistake, Vince hasn't cared more about making money, rather than placating his own ego, ever. It's just that for most of his life, doing both have seemingly fallen in lockstep. The sad thing is that during the Attitude era he was forced by WCW to admit his failures and loosen the reigns on the talent and wrestling's greatest boom period followed. The sadder thing is, that he learned nothing from it.

And no one in their right mind would blame the talent nowadays. How can someone be expected to get over with the leash this tight? With WWE forgetting continuity ( far more than normal) and burying you one second and exalting you the next.

Sorry I refuse to blame the talent for this, as the talent has pretty much zero wiggle room to get themselves over. If it were booked the way it was years ago you'd be right, but nowadays they are at the mercy of the writers, the scripts, and Vince's favor and whims. There is no mold to break right now, so if Vince wants you to be a glittery ballroom dance instructor that draws no heat, that's exactly what YOU ARE. And if you tell him to go fuck himself, you are out of a job as Vince isn't as desperate to keep talent as he was Austin did it.

Opportunity is dried up and make no mistake, the drabness and failures are Vince's.

As far as Cena being stale, if WCW was smart enough to notice Hogan's character was stagnating as a good guy, a guy who at the time, was very much like Cena in the, "He'all never turn category.", then with the safety nets they currently have in place, the WWE has no excuse. In wrestling, you don't fight the whims of the crowd, and when a guy like John Cena can't manage any more than a fifty-fifty split in his hometown, the answer is obvious.

I stand by what I said. Had they turned him heel on Raw 1000, Punk would be your guy and guys like Ryback and Ziggler would be far better off popularity wise. We'd be amazed at the change and would be talking a lot more about the rising stars as we went into this Wrestlemania.

Also Rock vs. Punk would be way more interesting.