Did Evolution Set The Bar Too High For The Success Of Stables In The WWE?

[Mitch Henessey]

If you ask me, Evolution was the last great stable in WWE. This is when Orton and Batista were still fresh, and on the rise. Then, you had the two vets, Triple H and Ric Flair, to add tons of credibility to the stable. Evolution was pretty much a modern day version of The Horsemen, and it did pretty good. You can say Evolution was used primarily to get Orton and Batista over because it worked (more so for Batista than Orton) but still, the stable was a success. Evolution had an elite feel to it, and their theme music was awesome also.

Ever since Evolution, there really hasn't been a new stable that has come close to that epic or elite feel. I'll list some of the other stables that have tried since Evolution:

La Familia-This stable consisted of Edge, Zack Ryder, Curt Hawkins, Chavo Guerrero, Bam Neely(Till this day I still have no idea why he was there) and Vickie Guerrero. If I'm not mistaken, there was a time when they were all champions, except for Bam. The problem I had with this stable is, no one besides Edge never really seemed to have potential, and Chavo just seemed like he was there because of Vickie. Yeah, they would go after Taker every now and then, but still they just didn't seem elite. Now there's a chance Zack Ryder might be breakout star...we will have to wait and see.

The Legacy- The HUGE problem with Legacy is, Orton is made out to be way too superior to Rhodes and Dibase. They are always made out to look like lackeys when a dispute amongest the three emerges. Even during Orton's feud with HHH and the McMahon family, they still seemed like lackeys or two guys following Orton around like un popular kids do in high school just so they can say, "hey I know that guy!".

The Hart Dynasty-I don't think there's too much wrong with them. They just need more time, and feud with DX or Vince McMahon might help them. One major problem I have with them is the usage of Natalya. She hardly ever wrestles, and isn't really used well in her current role.

The Cabinet- This stable played to JBL's whole rich guy persona. The members were, Amy Webber(she left WWE after an alleged harassment) Orlando Jordan, The Bashams, and Jillian Hall. I guess this stable was put together to make JBL look more like a dominant WWE champion. If you ask me, it was an EPIC fail. Everyone just seemed to be randomly thrown in there without any sense of "team". JBL would fire Jillian and Amy, but nobody really cared. Once Orlando Jordan lost the US title, he just sort of faded away from JBL without any real fallout.

Now I know there are some people who might say Triple H conspired to never have any other stable be bigger than Evolution, but I don't think that's true. The other stables I mentioned (with the exceptoin of The Hart Dynasty) were pretty much pushed to the moon, but never caught on. I think it's just as simple as that, and the fact they didn't have the right people put together.

So, do you think Evolution set the bar to high for the success of stables? Can there be another great stable? What are your thoughts?

 

[SUBMIT2GR8NESS]

Of course they did. The stable held multiple titles not to mention they held the WHC(HHH) Intercontinental(Orton) and Tag team titles (Batista and Flair) What ever this team wanted they got it. WHY?! Because woh have 2 of the best in flair and triple h you have the younge talent that orton brought and not to mention the jacked up animal Batista. They wanted title shots they got them. They wanted Austin out they did it.

Of course none of this wouldn't have been possible without Bischoff pulling strings for these guys.

Here is a good question when Flair was in Evolution did anyone ever really boo him. I kind of saw the same thing with Sting in the MEM.

 

[AdamStevens]

Evolution didn't really set the bar too high.... but they did set it at a level that will take a very good group of guys to match. They had everything that a strong stable needs to be successful. Honestly, I dislike Batista but as far as the group aspect of it he fit into the mold. With the experience of Flair and Triple H it made for a very well rounded stable. It would take a very remarkable group of guys to reach the level that Evolution did.

I do have to agree with the fact that there has not been another stable since them that has matched. The familia, The Cabinet and Legacy just didn't have the group factor to make them successful. Hart Dynasty might, but I just don't see either one of them falling into a leadership role, so unless something changes there they are destined to be a tag team(IMO) With the possible Vince?Bret fued, I could see them being showcased a lot more which may answer the questions as to weather they will perform on a higher level.

Personally I hope that another dominent stable does emerge again, as I am a fan stables lol So, no I do not think that Evolution set the bar too high.... I hope there will be another great stable.... It is just a matter of getting the right group of guys together at the right time. It will happen..... and I hope soon.

 

[wrestler36]

I would say that Evolution was THE dominant faction at the time, but they did not set the bar too high. Going back to the last 25 years, the Horsemen had the WHC, TV championship and the tag belts at once. The Hart Foundation of 97 had the World Title, IC Title, European title and the Tag Titles. I'm sure another faction will come along and duplicate the dominance. I don't think the bar can ever be set too high

 

[macksstream]

I don't personally think they set the bar too high, but you're right there hasn't really been a good one since them. It's just the right people i think. Like if CM Punk made a stable with straightedge people (which was talked about in another thread) then that wouldnt be too bad. Punk is the leader aka the major champion, Gallows is dominant at the moment but they just need a couple more people involved, like maybe a tag team. or a twist, with someone turning heel to join them. that'd b good.

 

[Spaceman Spif]

If any group really set the standard too high in reality it was The Horsemen, because think about it, with the exception of Evolution no other stable, not even DX comes close to The Horsemen, that stable started it all and set the standard so high, they are in a league of their that no other stable can match. However Evolution comes close, because it was basically the modern day Horsemen. It had the perfect mix of everything to be the most dominant stable since the Horsemen.

Sadly with the way things are going now, I believe no new stable could live up to anything close to what The Horsemen and Evolution were. So while no other stables to come along will be as successful as The Horsemen and Evolution, there is still a chance for them to be successful in some capacity. If Evolution could do it, then yes another stable could come along and successful, however I doubt they could be as successful as Evolution.

 

[Monkey_Mania]

Evolution was very dominant. I loved them, and has been said each of them held titles at the same time. Did they set the bar too high? No, and it pains me to say this. But besides running roughshod on RAW with all the titles and burying people what did they accomplish? The goal of a good stable is to not only get the guys in the stable over, but also get other wrestlers over as well. At the time Evolution happened there was nobody really within the RAW brand that was worthy of them putting over sans RVD.

They were moderately effective at best, because of the lack of talent they put over, or didn't put over. So no, as much as it pains me cause I loved them, they didn't do their job, weren't effective, and definitely did not set the bar high enough.

 

[Mister Redleg]

I am going to say something, and it might seem like blasphemy but I honestly don't care. Whenever Evolution came on television, I turned the channel. For as big of a wrestling fan as I am, I found them to be boring in the ring (still do to be honest), and even worse on the mic, except Flair. I also hated the fact that Flair was treated like a second class citizen in the group. Plus, when one group is too powerful and always gets what it wants, it starts to get really old to the point where you can skip a week and not really miss anything important in a story line. At least with some of the other stables, they were trying something different. If any of them, except the Cabinet, would have had the same time and effort thrown behind it and made them look like a team instead of an A-list star and others along for the ride, it might be more entertaining. That was the one thing Evolution had going for them was their goal was to make new stars, not make one look even brighter then he already was.

 

[LegendKiller716]

The cabinet was used primarily to get JBL over, but wast the cabinet befor/during evolution?

La Familia pretty much was also just to give edge some lackeys.

I dont consider the hart dynasty a stable, i consider them more of a tag team and manager, but if chris jericho joins them, they can become dominant.

As for legacy, i think the main problem is they have not had their own feud. they had a feud with DX, then other than that they have just been a part of ortons feuds. they need to feud with other teams. another problem is WWE dosnt know if they want cody or ted to break out first

 

[Toroc102]

I think they set the standard to high amonst the IWC. Like, I always hear Legacy being compared to Evolution, and how its failed because it hasn't made stars out of Dibiase and Rhodes. I mean, sure it hasn't but even if it never did I wouldn't consider Legacy a failure, thats not always the point of a stable. No one but Triple H ever came out of D/X. Only The Rock came out of NOD.

Really, Evolution is the only stable I can think of that every member ended up being a Main-Eventer. If Rhodes and Dibiase aren't Main-Eventers by the time they're out of Legacy I won't consider it a failure, because they're definately bigger names now because of it. Even with the original Four Horsemen, nobody but Flair ever ended up being a Main-Eventer, but the guys still played roles.

Also keeping in mind that Legacy hasn't broken up yet, there's still a lot that can happen. I don't think we'll truly be able to judge Legacy until we see what happens with Rhodes and Dibiase 2 years after the stable breaks up.

 

[Dagger Dias]

I think you're right, HHHKING13. Evolution was so awesome that no other stable after them has been able to give off that same vibe of epic awesomeness that Evolution had. The four members played their respective parts of past, present, future, and enforcer so perfectly. It was one of the best stables ever.

None of the recent big stables have been as good as Evolution. I'll give my thoughts on each of the ones you listed.

La Familia-This stable consisted of Edge, Zack Ryder, Curt Hawkins, Chavo Guerrero, Bam Neely(Till this day I still have no idea why he was there) and Vickie Guerrero. If I'm not mistaken, there was a time when they were all champions, except for Bam. The problem I had with this stable is, no one besides Edge never really seemed to have potential, and Chavo just seemed like he was there because of Vickie. Yeah, they would go after Taker every now and then, but still they just didn't seem elite. Now there's a chance Zack Ryder might be breakout star...we will have to wait and see.

This was a really weird stable. Edge was already an established main eventer before the group formed. Vickie and Edge's two clones (One of which I think went back to developmental, the other is now Zack Ryder) could have kept helping Edge retain without this stable being formed. Chavo seemed akward in this group and was only there because of being related to Vickie. Bam Neely seems to have vanished off the face of the earth. Litterally. He got future endeavored exactly one year ago and nothing has been heard from him. It was an interesting but weird stable and I think Edge's feud with Taker would still have been just as awesome without them.

The Legacy- The HUGE problem with Legacy is, Orton is made out to be way too superior to Rhodes and Dibase. They are always made out to look like lackeys when a dispute amongest the three emerges. Even during Orton's feud with HHH and the McMahon family, they still seemed like lackeys or two guys following Orton around like un popular kids do in high school just so they can say, "hey I know that guy!".

People looked at Legacy all wrong. They were hyped up to be the next Evolution, when in reality they were more like a sequal to Edge and his two clones (Hawins & Ryder) instead since Rhodes and Dibiase resemble a younger Orton and they helped him win matches. Legacy has been alright but they certainly have not lived up to their potential.

The Hart Dynasty-I don't think there's too much wrong with them. They just need more time, and feud with DX or Vince McMahon might help them. One major problem I have with them is the usage of Natalya. She hardly ever wrestles, and isn't really used well in her current role.

I think that will change soon. The guys can go for the tag titles.... eventually.... and Natalya can go for a female title. Then all 3 can be holding a title and that alone would push them up the list quite a bit in terms of successful stables. Hopefully they can be involved with Vince and Bret's storyline somehow.

The Cabinet- This stable played to JBL's whole rich guy persona. The members were, Amy Webber(she left WWE after an alleged harassment) Orlando Jordan, The Bashams, and Jillian Hall. I guess this stable was put together to make JBL look more like a dominant WWE champion. If you ask me, it was an EPIC fail. Everyone just seemed to be randomly thrown in there without any sense of "team". JBL would fire Jillian and Amy, but nobody really cared. Once Orlando Jordan lost the US title, he just sort of faded away from JBL without any real fallout.

This stable was kind of weird too, but not as weird as La Familia. They mainly were just supposed to help JBL out, but like you said they failed to entertain and suddenly they randomly disbanded.

Now I know there are some people who might say Triple H conspired to never have any other stable be bigger than Evolution, but I don't think that's true. The other stables I mentioned (with the exceptoin of The Hart Dynasty) were pretty much pushed to the moon, but never caught on. I think it's just as simple as that, and the fact they didn't have the right people put together.

Whether Triple H conspired or not, a lot of stables have been pushed and the fans have not generated enough interest. Evolution lasted for a long time AND they remained entertaining. "Past, Present, and Future" was a great theme and one that is hard to beat, especially since they had all the right guys playing the parts. I think it will be a really long time before we see another group as good as Evolution was. There probably will not be another one as good as them for a really long time because first they have to find a good theme to use for the stable and then they also have to make sure they use the right people for it, and finally the fans have to care about them in the end. Evolution was the result of the right people being used at the right time and the fans loved it.

 

[Freddy4190]

Evolution was godly. They seemed like a modern day version of the horsemen. I know some people don't agree with that, that's what it was like to me though. It can be redone. It just has to have the right group of people. There's really not that many people in the WWE right now that could pull off a stable as epic as Evolution. They might have set the bar too high. I doubt nowadays one stable would be able to hold every title a show has to offer. That's insane. Evolution was a wonderful thing and helped RKO and Batista's careers more then anything else possibly could have.

 

[Kiefer-Zeus]

You say Evolution set the bar to high, but i think the bar was originally set by the 4 Horsemen!

Ric Flair, Barry Windham & Arn and Tully all had gold! World, US and Tag respectively.

Since then many came along and repeated the same success!

- Hart Foundation - Bret (World), Owen (IC & Tag Team) & British Bulldog (European & Tag Team)
- nWo 2000 - Bret (World), Jarrett (US) & Outsiders (Tag Team)

Evolution just did what 3 other stables accomplished, but as far as WWE Stables Evolution is one of the highest due to their time on top and the fact it was for 2 years straight!

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

I loved Evolution to bits personally, and like HHHKing13, I'm an unabashed HHH mark, an Evolution was great for someone who liked watching a heel HHH at his finest. I think the issue with factions not living up to Evolution, the last "great" WWE faction, is because of the calibre of people used. When you look at the line up of Evolution, you have some very good ingredients that go into the melting pot.

At the head of the group, you had HHH, who could still go at the time (still can I suppose) but more importantly, was the lynchpin to hold it all together. the amount of heel heat he drew was immense, and the fact that he was so smug and talented perfectly complemented the group. Whereas factions like La Familia and Legacy had Edge and Orton, a key difference was the leader, with Edge and Orton working best solo, and HHH working well employing others.

Another key part was Ric Flair. I don't want to revise the entire history of Evolution, but this was huge. You had the greatest pro wrestler in the world at one time coaching these guys, kayfabe and in real life. He also doubled as the crafty manager that everyone wanted to sucker punch. Whilst La Familia had Vickie, there was only so far they could go with her, and whilst she was a heat magnet, she couldnt get in the ring. A manager like this is a necessity.

Now look at your rookies. You had Orton and Batista. Now, Orton was guaranteed to be at least something of note. This could be seen, as a third generation star and not being god awful bland and shit as say Curt Hawkins or one of the Bashams. More importantly, whilst in Evolution, he was booked correctly. He beat foley, he owned the IC title for a year. And say what you want about Batista, but he looks like a machine, and is a physical freak. He was the muscle and just his appearance was that much of a bonus. He was exactly what was needed, and someone like Bam Neely didn't have shit in comparison.

I've finished my Evolution-gasm for now, but the confluence of factors, with great booking and great members far outclass anything else the WWE has produced stablewise this decade. However, I don't think this had particularly set the bar too high, and even if it had, I think this is a good thing. One great stable that made stars of Orton and Batista is far better than a bunch of mediocre stables that only push one superstar. The bar should be continually raised, and the standard of excellence should be set at Evolution heights for stables, not La Familia heights.

 

[TheLittleOne]

Evolution set no freaking bar..unless you are 15 yrs old.. i can understand someone who wasn't around for real stables that were setting the bar too high. Understand evolution was created for one reason: to give credibility to Randy & batista. BY turning them heel with top heel triple H..then give them a chance to become a super face by turning on triple H they got over easily and made SuperStars.

Stables that set the bar:
The Dangerous Alliance: Steve Austin, Rick Rude, Arn Anderson, Larry Zbysko, Bobby Eaton Managed by Paul Heyman and Medusa...

The Hart Foundation: Bret, Owen, Bulldog, Anvil, Pillman. so much heat, World, IC, Tag, Euro titles.. main evented every raw and ppv.. damn montreal ended it early

Horseman.. if u werent watching back then, each was hot on their own Flair, Arn, Tully, Ole... then Ole out, Windham Luger

Evolution was good.. orton and batista couldnt talk yet..flair could barely work,, and Hunter was the reason they were hated..it worked but far from Greatest

stables are another lost art today along with managers.. Bobby Heenan's family was kinda of a stable, they did gang up to attack hogan at times..but he more managed each single guy..

so much potential for amazing stables to be created today in WWE..
and it would help bring more realism to it.. i think

 

[bowdring123]

i strongly belive that is untrue, there has been soo many great stables in the past, and it dosnt have to be a huge group of superstars, its a team or an alliance, look at the great tag teams post evolotion era, its just teams now are not being used properly, now its just 3 rivals vs 3 rivals who have never teamed up together, in my eyes i do see evolotion rising again, some way some how, batista is heel, orton is heel, hhh can be turned heel at the snap of a finger by turning on shawn when they eventually loose the tag titles, some day, and i know dx is a joke now-a-days but they got back together, so why cant it be the same with evolotion, and besides, a lot of people who watch wwe dont even know who evolotion is. The way i see it going down, is dx will loose the titles, and hhh will turn on him, backstage orton will approach him and say, remeber how powerful we were, lets put the past behind us and start up the band, they will jump to smackdown and grab batista, somehow, i dont really know how to get ric flair, he is retired but he was basicly is and was a great manager. ONE DAY, THEY WILL RISE AGAIN, MARK MY WORDS!

 

[SwimminInIndy]

The bar wasn't set by Evolution, it was set by the 3 best stables ever:


The DOA, Los Boriquas, and the Nation of Domination of course!


No, but seriously, as far as current groups go, they did set the bar a bit high. Notice I said current, because I think that the Horsemen were better. I thought that they were going to go by the Horsemen name when they first got together, and was kinda bummed when they didn't. Looking back I am glad they didn't because the Horsemen can't be redone IMO, but at the time I was younger and hoped that they would.


I do wish that the WWE would come up with a good stable, because I like groups. Like others said, CM Punk would be a good leader of a straight edge group, because that would be easy. All they would have to do is have some midcareder or 2 get saved by Punk, and there you have it.

The Hart Dynasty is intriguing as well. I thought I heard that Bret signed a short term deal with WWE, so he could really get them started right.

 

[AdamStevens]

The CM Punk idea is a good idea. He is one of the top guys on Smackdown and they could really put a group around him and put some of their other stars in the spotlight by aligning them with him. However they do need to make sure they use the right group of guys to put with him. You need the proper ingredients for it to work.

Also, just wanted to mention that no one has mentioned the n.W.o. as a dominent stable, and weather you like them or not, they were one of the most influential stables that have been in wrestling. Of course, I do not mean the watered down Vince version.

The Flock were a good group, Kidman really got showcased back then and Raven was still a major player in the TV and US title picture.

I realize they were not WWE stables, but neither were the Horsemen. Even the Main Event mafia was a pretty good stable. You had Kurt Angle, Sting and Booker T all together. Although it could of been better minus Nash and Steiner and have a couple younger guys like MCMG or Beer Money to make them stronger.

It's just a matter of getting the right guys together at the right time with the right people to fued with. It has happened before and will happen again.

 

[smalltownfan]

Evolution did set a pretty high standard because of the star power of their group but I don't think they set the bar too high. Legacy looked great to begin with, but their shine has rusted quite a bit. I wish there were more dominant factions out there but the fact is WWE can't keep stars healthy long enough to get a group firmly established. You also have to consider personality blends, storyline directions, and talent depth, too. Having ECW around doesn't help, either. If WWE eliminated ECW and split the talent between RAW and SmackDown, there might be enough talent depth around to get a dominant faction or two going.

 

[Trill Co$by]

The Cabinet- This stable played to JBL's whole rich guy persona. The members were, Amy Webber(she left WWE after an alleged harassment) Orlando Jordan, The Bashams, and Jillian Hall. I guess this stable was put together to make JBL look more like a dominant WWE champion. If you ask me, it was an EPIC fail. Everyone just seemed to be randomly thrown in there without any sense of "team". JBL would fire Jillian and Amy, but nobody really cared. Once Orlando Jordan lost the US title, he just sort of faded away from JBL without any real fallout.

Really? The Cabinet didn't seem like a stable? Even though, like Evolution for Raw at the time, they held every belt on Smackdown that they could? And the fact that Orlando Jordan continuously tried to help out everyone in the Cabinet to win their matches. If you ask me, The Cabinet was way better than Evolution as they proved that even though they were a team, they didn't really need help. Evolution, however, proved that they did in fact need help.


As for setting the bar too high, I don't think so. I think it's just that Vince won't let the new stables get so powerful.

 

[justinept]

I've been saying it since Legacy started being compared to Evolution.

EVOLUTION SUCKED.

There were great names in the stable and all either were or currently are major players in the world of professional wrestling, but people only look at the finished product with them.

The stable wasn't even minutes old in 2003 when Orton AND Batista suffered major injuries. For the first 4 months of Evolution, the stable wasn't even mentioned because of those injuries.

When Orton returned four months later, the "stable" was nothing more than Orton following Triple H around. It would be another 6 months before Orton was even in a title feud.

Meanwhile, Batista was all but forgotten until Evolution was nine months old.

Evolution did have a very nice 8-9 month run in 2004 following the return of Batista, but the group all but split up after Orton defeated Benoit for the title at Summer Slam 2004. Five months later, the group would be completely gone.

Please. Someone explain how a stable that wasn't even dominant for a full year set the bar for future stables?

The stable that has truly set the bar for the modern era of wrestling (which I consider to be since Nitro debuted) was the NWO. The stable that set the bar for all wrestling was The 4 Horsemen.

Evolution was nothing more than a foot note, a decent stable that happened to feature four guys who would win World Titles.

 

[jwil8403]

I will agree with the fact that Triple H and Shawn will eventually go their separate ways (I actually think Shawn will turn on Triple H) there is no way I can see evolution ever reuniting. Batista, Triple H and Orton all have an obsession with being the WWE Champion. The reason it worked before was because Triple H was unquestionably the leader and the best wrestler. Now that is very debatable. So although an Evolution reunion would be nice...no way it happens.

 

[Tougie]

Evolution was easily one of the top 3 stables in WWE. (My top three being DX, Evolution, and the Ministry), But as others have said it seemed like within minutes Batista and Orton went down with injuries. But other than that I dont think WWE will be able to produce a stable of that quality in a long time. All 4 of them are huge stars still to this day. Hell you break it down, Triple H is obviously a Hall of Famer for screwing the bosses daughter, Ric Flair is the greatest of all time, Randy Orton is the man on Raw right now regardless of who has the belt, and Batista whether of not how many times I see the Botchtista nickname is still a good wrestler. So good luck to WWE beating that stable, because they set the bar pretty damn high.

 

[Goondas_87]

The thing that i feel makes the stables these days suffer is the lack of group feeling. If you look back at matches that members of evolution had they just about always had another group member or two at ring side. Triple H almost always had atleast Flair at ring side for his matches and usually Batista or Orton aswell. Orton would normally have either Flair or Batista with him, ESPECIALLY if it was a match for his Intercontinental Title.

I remember it always beeing a big thing when Evolution would be banned from ringside cause it made u finally feel that the good guy might actually have a chance. Thats how strong Evolution felt as a group cause they were always helping each other out, it just seemed like their opponent had little to no hope of winning.

Yes the stables these days do usually have other group members out there when the leader is having a match but when the other members had a match theyd be out there alone which just made them seem seperated from the overall group.

Would it really kill them to have Orton actually accompany Rhodes and DiBiase to the ring every now and then for their matches and make it look like he actually gave half a damn about them. Thats why they just seem like lackies. They are always there to help him but he never helps them.

Get ur groups walking out as groups, itll help build that look that they are a stable and that if u mess with one of them ur messing with them all.

 

[justinept]

The thing that i feel makes the stables these days suffer is the lack of group feeling. If you look back at matches that members of evolution had they just about always had another group member or two at ring side. Triple H almost always had atleast Flair at ring side for his matches and usually Batista or Orton aswell. Orton would normally have either Flair or Batista with him, ESPECIALLY if it was a match for his Intercontinental Title.

I remember it always beeing a big thing when Evolution would be banned from ringside cause it made u finally feel that the good guy might actually have a chance. Thats how strong Evolution felt as a group cause they were always helping each other out, it just seemed like their opponent had little to no hope of winning.

Yes the stables these days do usually have other group members out there when the leader is having a match but when the other members had a match theyd be out there alone which just made them seem seperated from the overall group.

Would it really kill them to have Orton actually accompany Rhodes and DiBiase to the ring every now and then for their matches and make it look like he actually gave half a damn about them. Thats why they just seem like lackies. They are always there to help him but he never helps them.

Get ur groups walking out as groups, itll help build that look that they are a stable and that if u mess with one of them ur messing with them all.

But doesnt it make Orton look more prickish that he doesnt really support Rhodes and Orton, as if he's just using them for his own gain?

I think the general consensus on this board is right. Legacy as a stable sucks. But please, for the love of all things holy, will people stop saying Evolution set some kind of standard for a stable?