CM Punk's "Infamous Shoot" Took Place Entirely In Kayfabe

[Uncle Sam]

All these threads about CM Punk and Daniel Bryan might be in danger of tarring me with a particular brush... if I hadn't already been tarred years ago.

Some of you might remember my thread from a while ago, "My name... is Randy Orton" - The Anatomy of a Good Promo - or something to that tune. This is a similar thing, but with a different goal in mind. You've already read the title, I assume, and so it will come as no surprise that I intend to prove that CM Punk's infamous shoot promo on the 27th of June edition of Monday Night Raw took place entirely in kayfabe.

Assuming you don't own one of the several WWE DVDs with the promo on it - either fully or in fragments - and/or don't have it memorised, here's a YouTube video of it (see, I think of everything):

[youtube]2OS9wZGb_3g[/youtube]

CM Punk does not once break kayfabe in this promo. CM Punk does not once suggest that professional wrestling is not real. Instead, CM Punk recognises the modern audience's mindset and, at best, stretches kayfabe to meet it. In short, CM Punk used this promo to successfully suspend even the most cynical fan's disbelief, and it's labelled as a shoot as a result, and CM Punk is named and shamed as some sort of charlatan who can't get a pop without breaking some sort of ancient code. The reality couldn't be further from the truth. What CM Punk does - did - isn't easy; it's hard. CM Punk didn't destroy kayfabe. Kayfabe was crumbling and CM Punk came along with a trowel and some cement and patched up the cracks. Let's take a look at this transcript of the promo which I prepared:

John Cena, while you lay there, hopefully as uncomfortable as you possibly can be, I want you to listen to me, I want you to digest this - because, before I leave in three weeks with your WWE Championship, I have a lot of things I want to get off my chest. I don't hate you, John. I don't even dislike you. I do like you - I like you a hell of a lot more than I like most people in the back.

We're off to a good start. In Punk's first sentence (which runs on a bit, admittedly) he mentions how he's leaving with the WWE Championship. The implication being that Punk is going to wrestle John Cena for the title in a legitimate competition - i.e. kayfabe. This is very important to note: no matter what Punk says, he never once implies that the fight he's going to have with Cena is not entirely real.

He then tells Cena that he likes him, of all things. This isn't the destruction of kayfabe, it's the creation of a new character. Think of Jack Swagger coming back with a beard and a far right attitude. It's the same thing, just sped up. But one opponent telling the other that he likes him, isn't that destroying kayfabe? Well, no, it's just destroying boring storytelling tropes. The hero must hate the villain, right? Grrr, that baddy must be stopped! That's not kayfabe being pulled down, that's bland writing being pulled down.

I hate this idea that you're the best. Because you're not. I'm the best. I'm the best in the world. There's one thing you're better at than I am - and that's kissing Vince McMahon's ass. You're as good [at] kissing Vince McMahon's ass as Hulk Hogan was. I dunno know if you're as good as Dwayne though - he's a pretty good ass kisser; always was and still is.

Oops, I'm breaking the fourth wall.

First and foremost, do you think CM Punk is talking to the jaded, cynical fans that people so often accuse him of pandering to in that first sentence? Fuck no. He's in kayfabe. Because, in kayfabe, John Cena is the best - he overcomes all the odds, beats all the opponents and wins all the championships. CM Punk is addressing the WWE universe and, again, building up his confrontation with John Cena.

But bringing Vince into it is surely pushing the boundaries, no? Not really. In fact, this is probably as close as Punk does get to breaking kayfabe - by establishing a new one. This is a kayfabe where champions are the result of opportunities dished out by management - not by pre-deteremined decisions (which would be no kayfabe at all). For example, Hulk Hogan doesn't win fake fights, he wins real fights - but he's only there because he kissed Vince's ass in the first place. That's CM Punk's new reality.

Referring to saying "Dwayne," Punk says that he's breaking the fourth wall, but he's actually not. Firstly, wrestling doesn't have a fourth wall - the performers talk directly to the audience all the time; Cena even does it in his entrance. Secondly, everybody already knows The Rock's real name from the decade of films he's just been in. Punk is building up the idea that this is real, the idea being that the audience can buy into it - which is the entire point of professional wrestling.

I am the best wrestler in the world. I've been the best ever since day one since I walked into this company and I've been villified and hated since that day because Paul Heyman saw something in me that nobody else wanted to admit.

Punk saying "wrestler" is brilliant - it was basically a dirty word then and, to an extent, still is. He emphasises it, and the audience reacts with a sort of gasp (which is sad, really). This is not a destruction of kayfabe, it is a destruction of corporate newspeak, of words on a blacklist - and wrestling seems more real because of it.

Then there's the mention of Paul Heyman. Of course, at this point, CM Punk and Paul Heyman did not have an on-screen relationship. However, this falls under what I just said about Vince McMahon. If John Cena is where he is because Vince McMahon likes him, CM Punk is where he is because Paul Heyman likes him - but that's all going to be fixed when Punk and Cena have their real fight in a few weeks.

That's right, I'm a Paul Heyman guy. You know who else was a Paul Heyman guy? Brock Lesnar. And he split, just like I'm splitting, but the biggest difference between me and Brock is I'm going to leave with the WWE Championship.

Ooh, he said Brock Lesnar! Except saying Brock Lesnar is about the same as saying "wrestler." In fact, Punk even puts similar emphasis on both words. It's a banned word, but these things exist in WWE's reality. Brock Lesnar existed; he was a wrestler; he was a WWE Champion. Everything Punk is saying is true in reality and true in kayfabe.

Then noticed that Punk says he is going to leave with the WWE Championship - i.e. he is going to win the championship after beating John Cena in a wrestling match. He isn't saying, "John, I'm going to win in a fake fight with a pre-determined outcome and take that meaningless title," he is saying, "John, I'm going to defeat you, prove I'm the best and take the most valuable prize there is with me." There is a huge difference.

I've grabbed so many of Vincent K McMahon's brass rings that it's finally dawned on me that they're just that - they're completely imaginary. The only thing that is real is me and the fact that day in, day out, for six years, I have proved to everybody in the world that I am the best - on this microphone, in that ring, even on commentary. Nobody can touch me.

When Punk talks about the brass rings, he's not talking about Phil Brooks the man, he's talking about CM Punk the character. CM Punk the character has won everything there is to win, and yet--

And yet, no matter how many times I prove it, I'm not on your lovely little collector cups, I'm not on the cover of the program, I'm barely promoted, I don't get to be in movies, I'm certainly not on any crappy show on the US Network, I'm not on the poster of WrestleMania, I'm not on the signature that's produced at the start of the show. I'm not on Conan O'Brien, I'm not on Jimmy Fallon, but the fact of the matter is I should be. But trust me, this isn't sour grapes, but the fact that Dwayne is in the main event of WrestleMania next year and I'm not makes me sick.

What of this isn't something the CM Punk character wouldn't say? Triple H has been in movies - that isn't a secret. Other wrestlers (probably The Miz, I don't get American networks) had been in crappy shows on the USA Network - that's not a secret. WWE even promoted them. CM Punk is better than these wrestlers and yet he hasn't been rewarded like they have. Christ, The Rock's not even wrestled a match and he gets an automatic main event at WrestleMania! Why isn't every wrestler angry about that? Why isn't Kofi Kingston fucked off about that?

This isn't breaking kayfabe, this is making kayfabe make sense. Kayfabe is a tangle of wires and CM Punk is leaning over the telly and sorting them out.

Oh, hey, let me get something straight - those of you who are cheering me right now? You are just as big a part of me leaving as anything else, because you're the ones who are sipping out of those collector cups right now, you're the ones that buy those programs that my face isn't on the cover of, and then at five in the morning at the airport, you try to shove it in my face so can get an autograph and try and sell it on eBay because you're too lazy to go get a real job.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is called being a heel.

I'm leaving with the WWE Championship on July 17th, and hell, who knows? Maybe I'll go defend it in New Japan Pro Wrestling. Maybe I'll go defend it in Ring of Honor.

Aye, there's the rub! CM Punk's put me in quite the pickle here, hasn't he? Only mentioning these companies doesn't break kayfabe, it only breaks the WWE's mandated bubble. WWE is saying, "No, no no, rival promotions don't exist. Wrestling is limited to one company in North America." CM Punk is saying, "Who the fuck is buying that? You want me to sell this angle, I'm going to sell it."

And yes, again, Punk mentions the WWE Championship and emphasises its significance. Punk is making wrestling more real, not less.

Hey Colt Cabana, how you doing?

Same thing. Ooh, Punk is breaking kayfabe! Or is he just waving to his mate, whose name you can't say on telly, to sell a story?

The reason I'm leaving is you people because after you're gone you're still gonna pour money into this company. I'm just a spoke on the wheel; the wheel's gonna keep turning, and I understand that. But Vince McMahon's gonna make money despite himself - he's a millionaire who should be a billionaire. You know why he's not a billionaire? Because he surrounds himself with glad-handing, nonsensical, douchebag yes men like John Laurinaitis who's gonna tell him everything that he wants to hear. And I'd like to think that maybe this company will be better when Vince McMahon's dead but the fact is it's gonna get taken over by his idiotic daughter and his doofus son-in-law and the rest of his stupid family.

CM Punk: disgruntled employee. He's not doing anything but using language which will actually make the audience buy into this character.

You know we do this whole bully camp--

The best part, the icing on the cake.

CM Punk made us think something was real. Instead of celebrating that, we've vilified him for it, we've said he's not good enough to do regular promos. In reality, he's so good that he re-established kayfabe. It's a pity that nobody but Punk seems to understand what he did.

The commentators didn't seem to understand that this was a debut of a new character. The wrestlers didn't understand the tightrope that had to be walked to make us think this was all real again. And, last but not least, we didn't understand.

There have been imitations. John Cena said he'd "Go somewhere else, brother." Austin Aries said he wasn't going to follow the notes given on the promo he was supposed to cut on Jeff Hardy. Even Punk hasn't quite managed to reach these heights. Maybe something like this will never have the same impact again but what CM Punk did is the future of professional wrestling and we shouldn't be afraid of it.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Holy shit, we fucking know it was kayfabe. Are you just figuring this out?

No, everyone knew it was a 'worked shoot' - at least after the first rewatch - but everybody accuses Punk of breaking kayfabe. There's a difference. The first is about intent, the second is about content.

 

[salopstick]

It was a great promo, unscripted using bullet points

Wether shoot or kayfabe it doesn't matter, if anyone thinks for one minute that vince didnt know every bullet point before hand they are quite deluded.

But in this day of IWC and smarks we will appreciate anything that seems more real than fake scripted wrestling, the face wwe still employ punk and similarity joey styles sys it all.

Vince loves a bloke with bollocks to challenge him.

If a young shawn michaels can jump the line of higher ranking talents to see vince, and vince actually respect that then punk can ask vince to do a kayfabe shoot.

Vince and the rest of the locker room love little things that happen in front of the crowd that are meant for the back room

 

[Uncle Sam]

A 'worked shoot' implies breaking kayfabe with the approval of the company - i.e. CM Punk was allowed to say what he liked with Vince McMahon's approval. That what Punk said was inside the confines of the story is a different thing entirely.

 

[Blade]

I think the closest he comes to breaking kayfabe is actually when he says he's the best rather than John Cena. In the world of kayfabe, the guy with the WWE title, at least when they're a babyface, are the best wrestler in the company. They defeated a series of good opponents to rise to the top, then defeated the champion, the man formerly the best wrestler in the company. Punk calls himself the best, but he had nothing to back it up in a kayfabe sense. In the six months preceding the promo, he had lost a lot of matches, including a feud with the Big Show and then defeated Rey Mysterio, who isn't himself the most credible performer in kayfabe standards, to become the number one contender.

I think that's the only time during the promo that Punk possibly breaks kayfabe. Calling himself the best, which the IWC understood as the best performer. Admittedly though, heels call themselves the best all the time, it's part of their cocky delusion, but the character that Punk was introducing during that promo wasn't necessarily that type of heel. Sure, he became that heel when he turned during his WWE title run, but at that time the character was quite grounded in reality.

You're right that the promo in general is well within the confined of kayfabe. But I think that "I'm the best" line could be construed as breaking it.

 

[Uncle Sam]

I think the closest he comes to breaking kayfabe is actually when he says he's the best rather than John Cena. In the world of kayfabe, the guy with the WWE title, at least when they're a babyface, are the best wrestler in the company. They defeated a series of good opponents to rise to the top, then defeated the champion, the man formerly the best wrestler in the company. Punk calls himself the best, but he had nothing to back it up in a kayfabe sense. In the six months preceding the promo, he had lost a lot of matches, including a feud with the Big Show and then defeated Rey Mysterio, who isn't himself the most credible performer in kayfabe standards, to become the number one contender.

I see what you're saying, but I think it's in keeping with the arrogant, brash anti-hero character that Punk is trying to get across.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Ahh we are at an impasse.

Punk's promo was good, no doubt. But it is a 'shoot' Sam. When Russo did something similar in WCW, it was a shoot. When every wrestler was in ECW, thats all what they did (with the exception of Raven maybe). Its what they did at ECW ONS 05 and 06 and the purpose it serves is not saying pro wrestling is fake; its a shoot not a suicide. They wanna bring real life elements into effect. How Punk says "There goes the fourth wall" or something of the sort. Thats what that is. That cowboy be shootin'.



Warrior once famously said 'Hogan's whole life is a work'. And it is. He knows how to manipulate people.How to say incendiary things because it will illicit the kinda response he wants. He's a master at it. So is Punk. I have said so many times that Punk is a prick every time he steps in the limelight, in a ring or outside it. He is very old school like that and both him and Cena are very good at it. Keeping up their wrestling image as public image all the time, everytime.


Now after watching Punk's DVD I found the man to be extremely loyal and generous and someone who actually will lend you advice and speak to you nicely if you reciprocate. He is a prick because he is selling a character. Maybe he has to be so because his straight-edge lifestyle is so damn taboo to others and to the whole accepted social lifestyle of today. You'll just get pushed around if you ain't a little superior about it. Also, because that prick sells.


His shoots sell, but to be honest when he was doing the SES thing with his pseudo-Jesus appeal, wow dude;just wow. That rumble promo, THAT RUMBLE PROMO! I'll take that over that shoot in Las Vegas. That is difficult to do, to not air dirty laundry in public but sell a completely fabricated story like 'saving people' by shaving their heads. Man, that shit was cra' cra'!

 

[shattered dreams]

When I read the title I was ready to go shattered dreams all over this ridiculous idea and reading the OP did not change that. However, a more interesting idea is mixed in here to discuss. To say Punk did not break kayfabe is silly because he clearly did based on the current definition of kayfabe. What actually is somewhat interesting is the idea that all the semi-worked shoots have created a new kayfabe. You can't just change the accepted definition of a word as the reason that something didn't happen though. If I was one of the blowhards that cares about such things then I would just change the unjustified criticism to Punk can't cut great promos without using the new "kayfabe" while other wrestlers still have to operate in the traditional kayfabe parameters. The idea that kayfabe is dead is hardly revolutionary. The question I am interested in is whether all wrestlers should embrace the new "kayfabe" you define here or not.

In fact, this is probably as close as Punk does get to breaking kayfabe - by establishing a new one. This is a kayfabe where champions are the result of opportunities dished out by management - not by pre-deteremined decisions (which would be no kayfabe at all). For example, Hulk Hogan doesn't win fake fights, he wins real fights - but he's only there because he kissed Vince's ass in the first place. That's CM Punk's new reality.

I was with you until this last line. I am not sure what you mean there though. The most interesting way I can think of to interpret it seems to still require a rather significant leap of faith. That being that the guys get their chance to be main eventers by sucking up to the boss but then just happen to have "real" conflicts with everyone when they get there, at least partially due to the behind the scenes politics it takes to get there and stay there.

Referring to saying "Dwayne," Punk says that he's breaking the fourth wall, but he's actually not. Firstly, wrestling doesn't have a fourth wall - the performers talk directly to the audience all the time; Cena even does it in his entrance. Secondly, everybody already knows The Rock's real name from the decade of films he's just been in. Punk is building up the idea that this is real, the idea being that the audience can buy into it - which is the entire point of professional wrestling.

A good example of when this type of thing works well.

The commentators didn't seem to understand that this was a debut of a new character. The wrestlers didn't understand the tightrope that had to be walked to make us think this was all real again. And, last but not least, we didn't understand.

Too much conjecture for my tastes.

There have been imitations. John Cena said he'd "Go somewhere else, brother." Austin Aries said he wasn't going to follow the notes given on the promo he was supposed to cut on Jeff Hardy. Even Punk hasn't quite managed to reach these heights. Maybe something like this will never have the same impact again but what CM Punk did is the future of professional wrestling and we shouldn't be afraid of it.

I don't know when you started with wrestling but since I have confused you for Coco the Greet before I'll throw out some additional talking points from the perspective of someone that grew up on the attitude era. First, this is hardly a new thing at all. It has been done for at least 15 years now in a variety of ways. The only way to suggest Punk put a new stamp on would be to say either it wasn't actually how he felt or that he was the first to manage to do it in a way that seemed serious/professional. The former I don't think has much merit overall but is a possible distinction in parts while the latter still comes up short IMO. What may have happened here though is that Punk wasn't a pioneer but he may have done it the best. His work was the culmination of many years of not incorporating such kayfabe ideally.

Second, this type of thing is one of the many talking points that certain people like to throw around as a huge problem in WCW. Personally, I think Russo gets a bad rap for recognizing the necessity for this new kayfabe years before anyone wanted to admit it. However, that does still bring up the question of how much of the wrestling audience is still opposed to this type of kayfabe? Judging by the Angle-Jarrett feud I have my doubts people are ever going to get it. All this vague psychology is never going to hook kids either. Prowrestling is likely never going to market itself as a thinking mans game over a strong mans game. In some ways it is a shame but it is also practical. The level of intellect we are dealing with for the average fan is to respond to the concepts of this thread with something along the lines of "kayfabe was broke when the skinny fat greasy guy said he had earned a title shot."

I also feel like you could argue that people thinking it is a shoot when it wasn't is the opposite of the desired cause-effect. Kind of like the warrior quote PaperGhost brings up. That is a huge part of Hogan's success, but it is because people don't recognize it. If everyone recognizes it then you get the issues Punk is running into here where people start calling it a cheap parlor trick. Just being yourself is a cheaper way to do this. Easier to maintain, sure, but it does limit how far you can take this concept.

 

[Kodo Sawaki]

It was one of the best promos/shoot they had in years. Dare to say even in top 10 of company history. And it was awesome. Thats all it mathers to me...

Oh, and I also believe it was promo. Punk wasnt some lowlife in the company who strugled for his place and was to be endevoured. Punk was someone who was given oportunity after oportunity, 2 times in a row MiTB, championships, his own stable in SES and the New Nexus etc. After this he went to the roof but before he was still big within the company. This helped him a lot(even I who didnt believe ih guys abilities too much had to admit that the guy was awesome after this and that he could be new no1 within company), but people forget that he was big even before this. People even forget that Punk was always "company men" and that he always(even now) played as they say so. He had no realistic reason to complain about his status at that moment eventhough this thing skyrocketed him after. It would be like Ziggler(or even Sheamus on heel mode) would come out today and say that he is the best and that WWE doesnt give him enough oportunities to show that and doesnt advertise him as much as it should. So I agree that it was promo. But a damn awesome one where they give him total control and alowed him even to mentione some stuff in a way that you rarely see on WWE. Trouble is that Punk was so good that you could acctually believe it. And thats why it was awesome because even if its promo you could acctually believe that its a shoot.

Oh, and I disagree abou one thing: Psych is(by far) not a crapy show.

 

[dman1373]

No, everyone knew it was a 'worked shoot' - at least after the first rewatch - but everybody accuses Punk of breaking kayfabe. There's a difference. The first is about intent, the second is about content.

it is a worked shoot in the same sense that the 1997 promos in wwf were. They recognize the politics, acknowledge inside terms, talk about how good or bad promos are, and even acknowledge the bad guy good guy thing, but they always have the matches being recognized as real. Its not a wcw 2000 shoot where russo through all kayfabe out the window.

 

[TheHitMark-SirJoseOle]

I have never been a fan of the whole "let's break the fourth wall" adage in wrestling. Which is something that we obviously saw start to happen in the 90s boom of professional wrestling. WWF, WCW and ECW were all infamous for that. With the big two, I feel being the worst offenders in my view. Nothing irked me more than Vince McMahon calling The Undertaker by his real name, Mark. In the case of CM Punk, yes I did like a huge amount of his anti-establishment vitriol. It was definitely well put together, I think we could have done without the "breaking the fourth wall" reference. As far as other "shoots" in wrestling, I've felt that more often than not, they always have an air of "work" to them. I do feel that there are of course legitimate grievances that happen amongst performers in the business. Sometimes these said rivalries that happen behind the scenes are brought to real life, but I definitely think these guys are most of the time in character and are working professionals. For instance, The Montreal Screwjob to me still reeks of a "worked shoot", as well as Hulk Hogan's "Bash At The Beach 2000" controversy. And so on...

 

[Uncle Sam]

When I read the title I was ready to go shattered dreams all over this ridiculous idea and reading the OP did not change that. However, a more interesting idea is mixed in here to discuss. To say Punk did not break kayfabe is silly because he clearly did based on the current definition of kayfabe.

I would have thought someone who just used his own name as an adjective would have a more liberal approach to language. I mean, what is the accepted definition of kayfabe? This is hardly the sort of thing we can turn to the Oxford Dictionary to sort out, seeing as it's essentially a slang term used by carnival performers and their fans. Seeing as this is the twenty-first century, there are two places to which we can turn - Wikipedia and, obviously, Urban Dictionary. Not to spoil it, but both places essentially maintain kayfabe is to maintain the illusion that what is happening is reality rather than an act (when it is, in fact, an act). That in mind, I don't see what's wrong with what I said about Punk strengthening kayfabe rather than breaking it - he performed an act that many people bought into hook, line and sinker. Many people still don't believe he signed a new contract until after he won the WWE Championship (which, I suppose, goes beyond this particular promo, but you get the relevance).

I don't feel what Punk did to be more damaging to kayfabe than any of the more frightening leaps of faith that occur on WWE television every week. When I'm so often brought out of the program by an unfunny comedy sketch or a contrived feud, what Punk did brought me right into it.

What actually is somewhat interesting is the idea that all the semi-worked shoots have created a new kayfabe. You can't just change the accepted definition of a word as the reason that something didn't happen though. If I was one of the blowhards that cares about such things then I would just change the unjustified criticism to Punk can't cut great promos without using the new "kayfabe" while other wrestlers still have to operate in the traditional kayfabe parameters.

I'm the man that wrote a lengthy post about how Randy Orton can cut a good promo, so I don't mean to imply that it's necessary to behave as if you're going off script and will soon have security men tackling you to the ground to cut a good promo. On the other hand, I did mean to imply that doing so isn't an automatic guarantee of a great promo or story (which might explain some of the previous attempts you mention later on).

Too much conjecture for my tastes.

To be more specific, the commentators didn't understand it because of what they did at Money in the Bank - i.e. they all treated CM Punk as some massive heel ******** that should go eat shit and die. Though, thinking about it, I think that might just mean I just got worked by Booker T - an unsettling thought. Other wrestlers didn't understand because nobody's been able to recreate that deftness that made Punk's promo work. To re-use an example, Aries' promo on Hardy where he talks about not using his notes just comes off as a pale imitation to try and create a similar buzz for Bound For Glory as there was for Money in the Bank. We didn't understand it because, well, that's why this thread exists.

I don't know when you started with wrestling but since I have confused you for Coco the Greet before I'll throw out some additional talking points from the perspective of someone that grew up on the attitude era.

Coco the Greet? Now I am confused. Do you mean Greet White Sam or have you developed a new pet name for Coco?

To answer your question, I've been watching professional wrestling since about 1997. It's difficult to pinpoint exactly when - I would have been about four or five at the time - but thereabouts. I also grew up on the attitude era, but I'd only watched maybe a cumulative total of three hours of WCW before its death, hence why I might not feel the same familiarity with worked shoots as you do. One that does stick in the mind is, during the alliance angle, so after the attitude era by some measurements. Paul Heyman came out to the ring and accused Vince of ripping off ECW and rebranding it as 'attitude'.

Perhaps such instances were more commonplace than I remember. Perhaps Punk's just stands out more because of the comparative stodginess and predictability of the time.

I've read up - and watched up - on WCW since I was an eight-year-old, and I recognise what you're talking about, so I can only say that it was Punk's skill that makes it unique.

The closest thing I can think of in the modern era prior to Punk's promo is Samoa Joe's rant at Scott Hall, though I'd classify that as an actual shoot, as an actually pissed off Samoa Joe venting his feelings. Maybe I was worked by Joe too, and these ROH boys are more skillful than I give them credit for.

Judging by the Angle-Jarrett feud I have my doubts people are ever going to get it.

The Angle/Jarrett feud is during my TNA dark period, so you'll have to remind me. We're talking about when Jeff brought Kurt's kids into the feud and everybody was going ballistic about it being in bad taste, right?

All this vague psychology is never going to hook kids either. Prowrestling is likely never going to market itself as a thinking mans game over a strong mans game. In some ways it is a shame but it is also practical. The level of intellect we are dealing with for the average fan is to respond to the concepts of this thread with something along the lines of "kayfabe was broke when the skinny fat greasy guy said he had earned a title shot."

I don't like to think of it as vague as just, well, different. Wrestling fans are so often afraid of the unorthodox - e.g. people whose favourite feuds include Hogan/Warrior poo-pooing the idea of face/face feuds.

I also feel like you could argue that people thinking it is a shoot when it wasn't is the opposite of the desired cause-effect.

I would.

 

[R.K.O]

There were rumors that while the promo was prepared by Punk beforehand, but Vince basically gave Punk a live mic and allowed him to say anything he wants, and will cut him off when he gets overboard. It was part of their negotiation for Punk's new contract.

But Punk, writing it crossed kayfabe in some extent but didn't completely blow it up, why would he because he still kind of wanted to work in the company if not they wouldn't be negotiating in the first place. So Punk was still kind of holding back because of it.

But I agree with your points. Punk crossed kayfabe, said some "dirty words" but truth is he never said anything that hasn't be said before. Kissing Vince's ass to get benefit was a whole angle with Vince Mcmahon's kiss my ass club. The Paul Heyman part was true because Punk came up at WWE's version of ECW when Paul was running it and the "Paul Heyman" guy he mentioned was his client onscreen, not someone he endorsed backstage. The Ring of Honor part was probably the part that crossed kayfabe the most, but Matt Hardy mentioned it when he invaded Raw after he got fired and attacked Edge, so once again, done before. The John Laurinaitis thing, there were cases of backstage personnel getting singled out, and how convenient was it that the person he mentioned was a former pro wrestler and eventually made it to TV, not some random corporate stooge who wouldn't know how to act on TV.

My point is, I don't think it's entirely kayfabe as the chances of WWE bending backwards and gave Punk a live mic as part of the contract negotiation is high. But Punk held back and didn't blow kayfabe up because he still had some intentions of working there in the future.

 

[MCMG]

After watching this promo I thought it was planned or at least partly planned. I just couldn't see Punk being allowed to say what he wants on their flagship TV show. However, I also did think that there was an element of allowing Punk to express himself. Ultimately, they wanted it to come across real to make it seem more dramatic and emphatic.

How I see it, Punk and the writers conjured up this idea; Punk told them what he wanted to say, they censored it and Punk still said some of his original script- maybe only a sentence or two. There would have been no payoff for Punk to say what was truly on his mind.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Well for all of those people who say it was a shoot let me clarify something. A shoot is an unscripted, unplanned promo like when Doug Gilbert called Jerry Lawler a child raper, its not a shoot if creative goes to Punk and tells him "guess what? Tonight we are allowing you to bitch free willingly at the end of RAW". It was planned for it to happen that way therefore its not a shoot, it was just weaving realism into the promo. Shoots are when someone goes I to business for themselves, Punk didn't do that.

Either way it didn't matter. People initially thought it was a shoot, it got Punk over so it doesn't really matter either way. Mission accomplished.

P.S. to all who get defensive. The thread was made by Sam the funny, why so serious?

 

[JJ15776]

Ahh we are at an impasse.

Punk's promo was good, no doubt. But it is a 'shoot' Sam. When Russo did something similar in WCW, it was a shoot. When every wrestler was in ECW, thats all what they did (with the exception of Raven maybe). Its what they did at ECW ONS 05 and 06 and the purpose it serves is not saying pro wrestling is fake; its a shoot not a suicide. They wanna bring real life elements into effect. How Punk says "There goes the fourth wall" or something of the sort. Thats what that is. That cowboy be shootin'.



Warrior once famously said 'Hogan's whole life is a work'. And it is. He knows how to manipulate people.How to say incendiary things because it will illicit the kinda response he wants. He's a master at it. So is Punk. I have said so many times that Punk is a prick every time he steps in the limelight, in a ring or outside it. He is very old school like that and both him and Cena are very good at it. Keeping up their wrestling image as public image all the time, everytime.


Now after watching Punk's DVD I found the man to be extremely loyal and generous and someone who actually will lend you advice and speak to you nicely if you reciprocate. He is a prick because he is selling a character. Maybe he has to be so because his straight-edge lifestyle is so damn taboo to others and to the whole accepted social lifestyle of today. You'll just get pushed around if you ain't a little superior about it. Also, because that prick sells.


His shoots sell, but to be honest when he was doing the SES thing with his pseudo-Jesus appeal, wow dude;just wow. That rumble promo, THAT RUMBLE PROMO! I'll take that over that shoot in Las Vegas. That is difficult to do, to not air dirty laundry in public but sell a completely fabricated story like 'saving people' by shaving their heads. Man, that shit was cra' cra'!

We have a problem here. Unfortunately, it appears you do not know what a "shoot" is. Otherwise, you would not be calling that promo a "shoot" - because it was not. There's not argument to be made that it was. It's like trying to say Val Venis was black, or Torrie Wilson was a man. It's factually incorrect.

A "shoot" is something that happens off script. This can be in the context of a wrestling match or in a segment/promo. Now, you can debate just how scripted Punk's promo was - did they approve every word? Did they agree on bullet points? Did they give him the mic and the time and tell him to say whatever he wanted? (I was likely the first, possibly the second, and almost certainly not the last one.) Whatever the case may be, it was absolutely part of the script. The only way for his promo to qualify as a "shoot" would be if he was supposed to say something entirely different and had not told anybody or gotten permission from anybody to say what he did. Obviously, that's not the case, for he would've been out of a job by the time Raw went off the air. Therefor, it was not a shoot.

 

[tom9422]

Conspiracy theorists at work here. The DVD said it was a worked shoot, external sources said it was a worked shoot, why do you people want to think so bad that it wasn't? Why would they even bother to cover it up? It was a great promo but covering up that it was a scripted promo and not a worked shoot accomplishes nothing. They let him out with the idea of airing his grievances with it slightly worked into the storyline and he pieced it together. He doesn't say "fuck it" and scream about how wrestling is fake or tell everyone who was meant to get pushed next week, but he still clearly breaks kayfabe.

On the first point, technically, that is shooting since his contract was expiring and he wasn't renewing. He technically would have left with the title. Wrestlers don't reveal the details of their business contracts on live TV, it just isn't kayfabe.

Another big portion of the worked shoot is complaining about backstage politics and he insinuates that it is how the greats (John Cena included) got their success. That is not kayfabe at all, in kayfabe title shots are earned, the champion is meant to be the best but Punk's shooting tells the audience that this is not the case. The backstage jargon like 'brass rings' reinforces this, from a kayfabe perspective, CM Punk never previously deserved to be the face of the company, he never won a WWE title match.

He then goes on to talk about the collector cups and shit, also breaking kayfabe. Yeah, we all know WWE products exist but theres a reason they hardly ever personally mention their own merchandise on screen. It's because within kayfabe pro-wrestling is a real sport, it is competition, mentioning that it is a business and that important decisions are decided by this and not in ring performance undermines this. It is especially true when he mentions The Rock being in the main event of WM28 over him, in kayfabe, he didn't earn anything.

Also, theres a reason Vince doesn't give rubs to other promotions and while he obviously forgave it, he would never and has never given the green light to do that. Vince doesn't want to lose market share, period. Before Punk and Bryan, independent promotions were never even mentioned, the only promotions mentioned were the WWE and the promotions it bought out. Even today, you'll never hear anyone say a work about other promotions other than commentators "he wrestled on the indies" or "he's wrestled around the world".

He mentions figures that are irrelevant in kayfabe and unknown to the audience, mentioning John Laurinaitis himself is breaking kayfabe considering his job within the company is the antithesis of it. On Triple H, mentioning that he's going to inherit Vince's role is completely against kayfabe. The fans aren't meant to know that he has such backstage pull or that he'll control the company, he's just meant to be some wrestler who happens to be married to Stephanie, the smart fans know this but it completely contradicts the other story they had been telling us for ages.

You just want to think its a complete work so much that you'll ignore all evidence, even when they're literally telling you otherwise. Just pull your head out of your ass, you haven't discovered anything.

 

[johnbragg]

Kayfabe means that pro wrestling pretends to be a “real sport.” The problem is that “real sports” have changed.

What did Punk say that Kareem Abdul-Jabbar couldn’t say about his career? “I’m the best there ever was, but Magic Johnson smiled and kissed babies so everybody loved him. But *I* was the best there ever was. So I don’t have a statue out front of the Staples Center, I didn’t get the movie deals, (Kareem did, but go with it) I didn’t get to host a late night show.” How different is that from what Punk was saying? I was the best, but I wasn’t recognized because I didn’t kiss ass. Isaiah Thomas said that Larry Bird was only a big deal because he was white. Athlete A is saying that world-famous Athlete B is world-famous for illegitimate reasons.

Could you imagine Phil Jackson getting divorced from Jerry Buss’ daughter, and getting interviewed on the Lakers’ channel, and Jackson’s mike being cut? OK, that’s harder to imagine. So could you imagine it happening to Ron Artest/”Metta World Peace”?

And yet, no matter how many times I prove it, I'm not on your lovely little collector cups, I'm not on the cover of the program, I'm barely promoted, I don't get to be in movies, I'm certainly not on any crappy show on the US Network, I'm not on the poster of WrestleMania, I'm not on the signature that's produced at the start of the show. I'm not on Conan O'Brien, I'm not on Jimmy Fallon, but the fact of the matter is I should be. But trust me, this isn't sour grapes, but the fact that Dwayne is in the main event of WrestleMania next year and I'm not makes me sick.

I could imagine Tim Duncan snapping and going on a rant like that. “No matter how many rings I bring home, I’m not the face of the NBA. I’m not on the cover of the video game. ESPN doesn’t follow me around with a camera crew—because I don’t do ignorant dumbass shit. I’m not getting signed to make horrible rap albums or star in godawful movies. I’m not in NBA commercials, Conan O'Brien, I'm not on Jimmy Fallon, but the fact of the matter is I should be. But trust me, this isn't sour grapes, but the fact that Lebron James gets 24-7 coverage on ESPN. And you come in here with your microphone and ask that dumbass question about Lebron. Go ask him, after you're done washing his car”

The idea of kayfabe is that pro wrestling is a real sport. But that means updating and incorporating the changes in sports media in the past 30 years. There’s no rhyme or reason to who gets title shots? That’s called boxing. The promoters are devious, conniving thieves? Also boxing. The refs are crooked, and get told by The Powers That Be who gets the benefit of every doubt? Boxing, and according to Tim Donaghy, the NBA. But complaining about management? Happens all the time. Accusations of favoritism by the commissioner? Sure.

I think the new rule for kayfabe is, if you can do it in a real sport, you can do it in pro wrestling. The only thing you can’t do is question the integrity of the matches, of what the wrestlers are doing to each other.

 

[Pedigree1]

Wow for us to be even talking about this 2 years later like it happened yesterday goes to show us how fucking brilliant the worked shoot was. Punk elevated himself way beyond super-stardom on that eventful night. Punk is a genius phil brooks the man CM Punk the performer all genius. Man yes it was a work,even said so on the DVD but hot damn amazing amazing. Possibly the best worked shoot of all time.

I still watch it,suspension of Disbelief isnt that what Pro Wrestling is supposed to be? He broke Kayfabe went way beyond it. Broke all the dimensions of what is real and what isnt. Told the truth between Phil Brooks the Man and CM Punk the Performer! Amazing job

 

[johnbragg]

Conspiracy theorists at work here. The DVD said it was a worked shoot, external sources said it was a worked shoot, why do you people want to think so bad that it wasn't? Why would they even bother to cover it up? It was a great promo but covering up that it was a scripted promo and not a worked shoot accomplishes nothing. They let him out with the idea of airing his grievances with it slightly worked into the storyline and he pieced it together. He doesn't say "fuck it" and scream about how wrestling is fake or tell everyone who was meant to get pushed next week, but he still clearly breaks kayfabe.

I'd say that he doesn't break kayfabe. He breaks a list of WWE taboos that exist either to protect WWE business--like not mentioning the competition--or are just a holdover from the 100% kayfabe era--like not using real names. But the core of kayfabe is the idea that pro wrestling is a real sport, that the matches are real contests of athleticism that both wrestlers are trying to win. Saying "Ring of Honor", saying "Colt Cabana", saying "Dwayne" doesn't interfere with any of that.

NAmes can get borderline--it would be jarring, and maybe break kayfabe, to have WWE people call Punk "Phil", because "CM Punk" isn't obviously a made-up character name. But "Rocky Maivia" hasn't been around for a long, long time, and Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson makes a lot of movies, and I don't even remember Colt CAbana's name when he was in WWE.

But a lot of the taboos are obsolete. WWE doesn't have to pretend competition doesn't exist, because there isn't any competition. New Japan or AAA or ROH aren't any threat to WWE. They're not competitors the way WCW was in the 1990s or the NWA territories were in the 1970s and 80s.

On the first point, technically, that is shooting since his contract was expiring and he wasn't renewing. He technically would have left with the title. Wrestlers don't reveal the details of their business contracts on live TV, it just isn't kayfabe.

I think that's what the OP means about updating kayfabe. Why can't wrestlers talk about their contracts? Real-sport athletes talk about their contracts all the time.

The metric should be--does this undermine the reality of the matches? I remember having a problem with the JArrett--Karen Angle--Kurt Angle storyline, because TNA used the Karen Angle thing to say "ZOMG Angle-Jarrett is a REAL FIGHT" The problem there is that it says that everything else on the card is NOT a real fight.

 

[shattered dreams]

I would have thought someone who just used his own name as an adjective would have a more liberal approach to language.

You will burn in hell for such indignation. Anyway, like I said before this part of what you were talking about isn't that interesting to me but I feel I am justified in my disapproval in spite of your adequate question here on interpretation of the word. Why? Since you essentially included a sentence that established your own agreement with my interpretation when you said Punk didn't break kayfabe since he established a new one. Why call it a new definition if you are claiming it was the case all along?

Though, thinking about it, I think that might just mean I just got worked by Booker T - an unsettling thought.

Coco the Greet? Now I am confused. Do you mean Greet White Sam or have you developed a new pet name for Coco?

Which one is Coco again? I get him confused with that Dagger guy.

Perhaps such instances were more commonplace than I remember. Perhaps Punk's just stands out more because of the comparative stodginess and predictability of the time.

This was certainly a factor.

I've read up - and watched up - on WCW since I was an eight-year-old, and I recognise what you're talking about, so I can only say that it was Punk's skill that makes it unique.

It was skillfully done but I would be remiss to not give credit to everyone involved right up until they blew it. They blew it with me when he started to work with Nash while the thread started unraveling about the time they wouldn't let the story breathe just a little bit longer in the beginning. The Nash part is interesting because it raises the issue with such methods of kayfabe. With the fourth wall broken (note: I have yet to look up 4th wall on urban dictionary for fear of having nightmares about the potential sexual interpretations) it is hard to figure out where the character should go. If it is a work then something like Nash makes fine sense. Punk doesn't like those types and is here to beef with them etc. If it is a shoot then the whole thing starts to crumble. Why is the guy that supposedly doesn't like such wrestlers and doesn't do what the boss tells him working with this guy? He clearly isn't the master of his domain that he claims to be. When it is a worked shoot it just becomes all the more muddled.

The closest thing I can think of in the modern era prior to Punk's promo is Samoa Joe's rant at Scott Hall, though I'd classify that as an actual shoot, as an actually pissed off Samoa Joe venting his feelings. Maybe I was worked by Joe too, and these ROH boys are more skillful than I give them credit for.

I don't find them similar at all other than maybe some of the content. If Joe wasn't working then he would be a lot higher on the card by now with those acting chops. To bad he invested in pork chops for a while instead. It is hard to say when this has and hasn't happened. The trouble is when you know it has happened then it wasn't the best. I think this type of thing happened more than people realize during Rock-Cena and that is part of what made it great (up until twice in a lifetime happened).

The Angle/Jarrett feud is during my TNA dark period, so you'll have to remind me. We're talking about when Jeff brought Kurt's kids into the feud and everybody was going ballistic about it being in bad taste, right?

Pretty much. They would do these hilarious comedy vignettes and then people would say the whole thing was way too serious to be putting on tv . It was also amusing to read recently that Angle is always telling people that ask why he did that whole story was that he got to see his kids a lot more than he usually does. It is the same problem from earlier, the disconnect between reality and the audiences interpretation of reality.

I would.

But aren't we both saying that Punk skillfully walked the line like few to none have done before? If he did this so well and still ended up with a less desirable dichotomy, then why should others have invested in this new kayfabe with him?

Eventually you become constrained by reality which hurts the entertainment aspect of the whole thing. People don't want to watch real life. They want to watch "real" life on steroids. Ok possibly a bad analogy ...

 

[The Champ]

While I agree with the opening post, it's all pretty obvious stuff to me. I'm not sure who has criticized that promo for "breaking kayfabe," as I've rarely, if ever, seen such a criticism, but it's clear that he never did so.

He simply made reference to things that are not normally brought up in WWE canon, which is what made it such a wildly successful angle. It resonated with those people on the internet and wherever else who felt their voices weren't being heard. Sure, the idea of Triple H taking over the company eventually hadn't really been touched upon on television before then, but it had been established years prior that he and Steph were still married, etc.

The one thing he never did was say, or imply, that wrestling was or is fake, and that's something that should never, ever be done on television in any manner.

 

[tom9422]

I'd say that he doesn't break kayfabe. He breaks a list of WWE taboos that exist either to protect WWE business--like not mentioning the competition--or are just a holdover from the 100% kayfabe era--like not using real names. But the core of kayfabe is the idea that pro wrestling is a real sport, that the matches are real contests of athleticism that both wrestlers are trying to win. Saying "Ring of Honor", saying "Colt Cabana", saying "Dwayne" doesn't interfere with any of that.

NAmes can get borderline--it would be jarring, and maybe break kayfabe, to have WWE people call Punk "Phil", because "CM Punk" isn't obviously a made-up character name. But "Rocky Maivia" hasn't been around for a long, long time, and Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson makes a lot of movies, and I don't even remember Colt CAbana's name when he was in WWE.

But a lot of the taboos are obsolete. WWE doesn't have to pretend competition doesn't exist, because there isn't any competition. New Japan or AAA or ROH aren't any threat to WWE. They're not competitors the way WCW was in the 1990s or the NWA territories were in the 1970s and 80s.



I think that's what the OP means about updating kayfabe. Why can't wrestlers talk about their contracts? Real-sport athletes talk about their contracts all the time.

The metric should be--does this undermine the reality of the matches? I remember having a problem with the JArrett--Karen Angle--Kurt Angle storyline, because TNA used the Karen Angle thing to say "ZOMG Angle-Jarrett is a REAL FIGHT" The problem there is that it says that everything else on the card is NOT a real fight.

To be frank, i don't think you (or the OP) understand what kayfabe is. You're simply redefining it to a different meaning where it would never realistically be broken anyway. It's not just 'something that undermines the idea that its a real sport', its simply referencing things or contradicting things that are assumed as truth in WWE canon. When you reference that Vince McMahon's approval is what gets wrestlers a main event spot or refer to Triple H as his real name of "Paul Levesque" when WWE has spent the last 18 years trying to convince us that his name is Hunter Hearst Helmsley, that is breaking kayfabe.

It was a worked shoot and without screaming "lolol fake wrestling" CM Punk subtly told the audience the dynamics of backstage politics and achieving success when according to kayfabe, that shouldn't even exist.

 

[Dmbfantomas]

I was there that night. It was a magical day.

Being there live, you felt everything was real. He was talking about certain things he'd bitched about before on shoot interviews and the like (the eBay thing being the most memorable of his complaints).

Obviously, after watching it again, you knew the whole thing was in Kayfabe. The reasons for which you have so very well laid out here.

Had Punker broken kayfabe, he would have said something akin to "So in three weeks, I will be taking that title from you...unless the creative writing team that doesn't get a tv credit decides to change the script."

This promo was art, and as you mentioned, for reasons that I don't think most people fully understand.