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At least 27 People Dead, 18 of them children.

So basically you have to convince people to change their interpretation of the 2nd amendment? Yeah that'll go over well. :rolleyes:

"To bear arms" can be interpreted as any sort of weapon but the one it's most interpreted as is the gun. When someone says that they mean the right to have a gun. The Constitution is like the rules of this forum (no offense). It's up for interpretation by whoever our leaders are at that time. If President Obama could convince Congress as well as the Courts to change their interpretation of the amendment, then we'll have made a huge step forward in better regulating guns and banning types of guns that serve no other purpose than to kill someone.

I like the idea. Now let's see if they can do it.
 
So basically you have to convince people to change their interpretation of the 2nd amendment? Yeah that'll go over well. :rolleyes:
No, just 9 justices. And you don't have to convince them to change, you just have to get the correct ones appointed.

"To bear arms" can be interpreted as any sort of weapon but the one it's most interpreted as is the gun.
No doubt. The point I'm making is the Constitution does not implicitly guarantee our right to own guns. That's been interpreted into the Amendment.

The Constitution is like the rules of this forum (no offense). It's up for interpretation by whoever our leaders are at that time. If President Obama could convince Congress as well as the Courts to change their interpretation of the amendment, then we'll have made a huge step forward in better regulating guns and banning types of guns that serve no other purpose than to kill someone.

I like the idea. Now let's see if they can do it.
They need to. Americans shouldn't have to live in the fear of being murdered just for going to watch a movie or to a mall or going to school.
 
No, just 9 justices. And you don't have to convince them to change, you just have to get the correct ones appointed.

No doubt. The point I'm making is the Constitution does not implicitly guarantee our right to own guns. That's been interpreted into the Amendment.


They need to. Americans shouldn't have to live in the fear of being murdered just for going to watch a movie or to a mall or going to school.

Just to have weapons. I did look and no where in the Constitution (like you said) does it mention anything related to guns. You do have the right to have some form of protection, it just doesn't necessarily have to be a gun.

I work in a town where you see an ambulance pass by almost every night because some dumbass got trigger happy. It's why I park as close to the front doors as I possibly can when I work nights.

All we need are 9 smart justices and we'll be one big step closer to not seeing headlines of a school shooting on the news every other month. One can only hope.
 
Why do you not only need 5 smart justices? Is it because it has to be unanimous for a constitutional change or something?
 
Why do you not only need 5 smart justices? Is it because it has to be unanimous for a constitutional change or something?

No, there just need to be enough justices to rule a certain way. Many decisions over the last several years have been along a 5-4 party ideology line.
 
No, there just need to be enough justices to rule a certain way. Many decisions over the last several years have been along a 5-4 party ideology line.

Sadly, Obama really only has the chance to replace one consistently conservative justice this term, and that's Scalia. It's also possible that he'll have to nominate new justices for Anthony Kennedy (the consistent swing vote), Ginsberg, and Breyer, two Clinton appointees. Still, if he is somehow lucky to replace all four of those people with consistently liberal justices there is some chance that we will see a change in gun legislation. Not a huge chance, but it's there.

Fun fact: I went to high school with Justice Alito's daughter. She was a senior when I was a sophomore so our interaction was... nil, but I knew her before her father was famous.
 
Sadly, Obama really only has the chance to replace one consistently conservative justice this term, and that's Scalia. It's also possible that he'll have to nominate new justices for Anthony Kennedy (the consistent swing vote), Ginsberg, and Breyer, two Clinton appointees. Still, if he is somehow lucky to replace all four of those people with consistently liberal justices there is some chance that we will see a change in gun legislation. Not a huge chance, but it's there.

Fun fact: I went to high school with Justice Alito's daughter. She was a senior when I was a sophomore so our interaction was... nil, but I knew her before her father was famous.
That is assuming Obama would even nominate a huge Liberal, which I have doubts he would across the board. Not as liberal as some want, closer to the center. Having a court that isn't too one sided can only be seen as a good thing. Why would anybody want a court that only views issues one way? Diversity of opinion is a great thing. I am hoping none retire and don't until 2016 so the next president gets in and we have a good shot at some moderate views. Not too far left or right, with little bias as one can hope for.
 
The 2nd Amendment only says "right to bear Arms". It never once specifies which Arms, nor does it say citizens have the right to bear any Arms they wish to possess.
The Supreme Court interpreted as it was guns. It was implied. It is true that what type and how is up for interpretation. But the supreme court did rule that guns were a part of that amendment.


slyfox696 said:
Except, we don't have to fuck with the Bill of Rights, only the interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. It doesn't require a single change.
I was talking about repealing it or creating another amendment to supersede it.

Slyfox696 said:
You unintentionally proved my point.

DC vs. Heller was COMPLETELY about interpretation of the Amendment. They took the existing language and extended it beyond what is written. Don't tell me it cannot swing back the other way.
Still hard to do, more so with legal precedence going one way. But I was more trying to get Yazloz to understand current interpretation of that amendment. Unless this part was not included or something else about the ruling is different it also says this. (Bear in mind I haven't read the full case or ruling yet, only part of it. I am not using the below as an official argument.)

1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a
firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for
traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.
Pp. 2–53.

The Second Amendment is naturally divided into two
parts: its prefatory clause and its operative clause. The
former does not limit the latter grammatically, but rather
announces a purpose. The Amendment could be re*
phrased, “Because a well regulated Militia is necessary to
the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep
and bear Arms shall not be infringed.”
However, I want to read the entire ruling before I use this in full. I am more pointing out what the Heller case held, I still need to read the whole case. No telling how long that will take me. But feel free to state some things if you already know what I am trying to read into.

Slyfox696 said:
No one disagrees we should address the other issues as well. And that's the point, we all agree on that, so why bother to continue discussing it?
Because Americans have the attention span of squirrel. Those issues are important to me and in effect i will continue to talk about them whenever I have the chance to. Also, Americans tend to avoid the most difficult things and easily forget. Few focused on those things in any other shooting..so why would they now?
 
Also, Americans tend to avoid the most difficult things and easily forget. Few focused on those things in any other shooting..so why would they now?
Yeah. No kidding.

Tell me more about how we aren't supposed to talk about firearms because *cough* Bill of Rights *cough*.

Why did few people focus on mental health after other shootings? It's because their focus was on the fact that people refer to it as "any other shootings", and realize that there is a common element to "any other shootings" which isn't the mentally unstable. Strangely, other places in the world have mentally unstable people too. But without the gun violence that we have in the United States. Because they can't walk into Mommy's closet and grab her Bushmaster.

Great, mental health is important. But it's not the issue at root here, it's something to blame to avoid talking about the issue at root. Which you are trying to do by repeatedly insisting that firearms in America are a settled, finished, and utterly ineffable issue and we should work on mental health instead.
 
The Supreme Court interpreted as it was guns. It was implied. It is true that what type and how is up for interpretation. But the supreme court did rule that guns were a part of that amendment.
And the Supreme Court in the case of Plessy v. Ferguson ruled that "separate but equal" was constitutional by a vote of 7-1. It was then overturned later in Brown vs. Board of Education.

The Supreme Court did rule that guns were part of it, but the next challenge doesn't mean the next Court will agree that guns are part of it. The point being, we don't have to repeal an Amendment, nor do we have to write a new one. We simply have to pass a law which will pass the Supreme Court challenge. That's it.

Please note: I say "that's it" as if it will be easy to do so. I'm not saying it is. But it certainly is easier than amending the Constitution.

I was talking about repealing it or creating another amendment to supersede it.
I know you were. And I was saying we don't have to do that to have meaningful gun control in this country. Because you don't have to ban all guns to have quality gun control, you just have to ban the dangerous ones and make it more difficult to obtain the others. We put limits on Constitutionally protected rights all the time. How the 2nd Amendment has been considered different all these years is beyond me.

Still hard to do, more so with legal precedence going one way. But I was more trying to get Yazloz to understand current interpretation of that amendment. Unless this part was not included or something else about the ruling is different it also says this. (Bear in mind I haven't read the full case or ruling yet, only part of it. I am not using the below as an official argument.)

However, I want to read the entire ruling before I use this in full. I am more pointing out what the Heller case held, I still need to read the whole case. No telling how long that will take me. But feel free to state some things if you already know what I am trying to read into.
I understand completely what you were trying to show. I was just trying to show that just as easily as the Supreme Court can read into the Amendment something which does not exist, they can also read out of the Amendment something which does not exist.

Because Americans have the attention span of squirrel. Those issues are important to me and in effect i will continue to talk about them whenever I have the chance to. Also, Americans tend to avoid the most difficult things and easily forget. Few focused on those things in any other shooting..so why would they now?
On the contrary, I think quite a bit of focus was placed upon the Aurora shooter and the mental difficulties he has. But, aside from a report of Aspergers, which by itself would indicate a LESS likely shooter as those with Aspergers are far more likely to be reactive in their aggression than proactive, we don't have any indication of any mental defects Lanza may have had, at least to the best of my knowledge.

So right now, of all the things we know, the fact this guy entered a locked school by blowing the locks open with an assault rifle carrying a 30 round clip and proceeded to shoot every deceased person multiple times with said rifle is far more important.

Great, mental health is important. But it's not the issue at root here, it's something to blame to avoid talking about the issue at root. Which you are trying to do by repeatedly insisting that firearms in America are a settled, finished, and utterly ineffable issue and we should work on mental health instead.
I do have to disagree with you on this...I think mental instability is one of, if not the important, root issues in these shootings. However, like you correctly have mentioned many times, it's not like mental illness only resides in America. Mental illness is the reason many of these murderers perform their acts, but they're only made capable of doing so because of the ease in acquiring a gun. Without a gun, they are simply just mentally unstable people, who pose a much less serious risk.

But again, as I just mentioned, I've yet to hear any positive confirmation this man had a mental disease which lends itself to becoming a mass murderer. The only thing I've heard is Asperger's, which is not a reason someone would do what this guy did. I'm not denying there's a great chance he was mentally unstable, I'm just saying I've yet to hear the confirmation of that.
 
If you put tighter restrictions on Gun Control and force psychos like the Sandy Hook Shooter to have to go to the hood to buy a gun illegally, chances are he would have been killed in the process of looking for said gun.

Why do people think that guys like the Batman shooter, and the Sandy Hook shooter are some sort of criminal masterminds? No modern day guns dealer would want to deal with taking a risk on some dude who looks like Beaker from the Muppets.
 
Sly might get a kick out of this video.


My personal favorite bit was when he asks "How would Nazi Germany be different if the people were armed?"
 
Sly, I wish you were my next door neighbor. Then I could post this sign.

gun%252Bowners.bmp
 
I do have to disagree with you on this...I think mental instability is one of, if not the important, root issues in these shootings. However, like you correctly have mentioned many times, it's not like mental illness only resides in America. Mental illness is the reason many of these murderers perform their acts, but they're only made capable of doing so because of the ease in acquiring a gun. Without a gun, they are simply just mentally unstable people, who pose a much less serious risk.

But again, as I just mentioned, I've yet to hear any positive confirmation this man had a mental disease which lends itself to becoming a mass murderer. The only thing I've heard is Asperger's, which is not a reason someone would do what this guy did. I'm not denying there's a great chance he was mentally unstable, I'm just saying I've yet to hear the confirmation of that.
That was sort of my point, less than eloquently put by me. America doesn't have a monopoly on the mentally unstable, but we do seem to have a near-monopoly on the mass shooting.

I want to create a few plots charting firearm murders per capita vs. firearms per capita, violent crimes per capita vs. firearms per capita, and mental health expenditure per capita (a hard figure to find statistics on) vs. firearm murders per capita, but it's the run-up to Christmas and I'm much too busy to kill the couple of hours on that. Unfortunately, by the time I can make those plots, no one will want to talk about firearms anymore.


And BigDaddyAwesome, I think we all agree that no one wants anyone else to get shot. We are discussing the 'how' of that, as opposed to the fact of it. Saying "I hope you get threatened with violence because you disagree with me" in its various forms doesn't actually say anything beyond making you look like an ass who hopes someone gets threatened with violence because of an internet argument.
 
Yes, the answer to gun violence certainly couldn't be to get rid of the guns. No, the answer to escalating gun violence, as gun ownership also rises, is more guns.

No direct correlation of rising gun sales and rising gun violence. No direct correlation to other countries instituting gun control and decreased gun violence. No, it must be violent video games, which many studies have already showed cause no direct link towards violence. It must be every other factor besides a gun.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't expect the NRA to say anything but what they said, but some of the things the spokesperson said were downright baffling (I only heard because I was shopping for some house items, and one of the stores had Fox News on...double whammy). For example, this numbskull essentially asked why guns in the hands of the people who protect the President, people in the military and people in the police department were good, but in the hands of civilians are bad. Seriously, he said that.

I wanted someone to shoot him as he spoke, just so I could hear him with his dying breath preach about how safe guns are.
 
You do realize those are pointless petitions and the government ignores them right?
You mean like what you have been doing (talking about Gun Control and even signing weak internet petitions that don't get taken seriously)? Got news for you. Those tactics aren't new, and they haven't worked either.
And you know what they do when they respond? Some random staffer says no. It's not like the President Obama will look at this and study it. It will be put in a pile of all the online petitions, and eventually be looked at by an intern or something.

Well, isn't your face red.


Yeah, it's not like President Obama himself addresses these petitions...
 
Yeah, it's not like President Obama himself addresses these petitions...
I do kind of want to hear about how he'll go all "March To The Sea" in Texas if they try and secede.

Also, three people, four if you count the gunman, were killed in Pennsylvania today, and three state troopers were wounded.
 
I do kind of want to hear about how he'll go all "March To The Sea" in Texas if they try and secede.
I say we let Texas secede and go Civil War on their ass. Or better yet, see if we can convince the Mexicans to take Texas back. The average IQ of this country would shoot through the roof if we got rid of Texas.

Also, three people, four if you count the gunman, were killed in Pennsylvania today, and three state troopers were wounded.
Surely not, because state troopers have guns, and I've been told that having a gun protects you from gun crime.

You must have heard wrong.
 
Well, isn't your face red.


Yeah, it's not like President Obama himself addresses these petitions...
No, my face isn't red at all. He addressed one petition subject regarding a national tragedy on a topic he wanted to and already planned to address anyway. He happened to mention these petitions as a way to garner support from the people. It would be foolish to think he wasn't going to work on gun laws without the petitions. Show me when the he addresses all the petitions that get enough signitures and I'd be impressed with the system.



All that being said, I agree with everything he said. Now lets hope he follows through with it and works to fix the system which is broken.
 
Was the store a Locks, Window Bars and Guns store by any chance?

Though that would have made much more sense, it was actually an electrical store.

In all honesty, I almost asked the employees to turn it off/mute it. I literally became furious listening to that bastard from the NRA. I had to walk away from the counter on a couple of occasions, just so I didn't throw something at their TV.
No, my face isn't red at all. He addressed one petition subject regarding a national tragedy on a topic he wanted to
Which just so happened to be the petition I signed and provided access for others to sign. Which you told me was irrelevant and would not be addressed by the President, but rather some low level intern.

Show me when the he addresses all the petitions that get enough signitures and I'd be impressed with the system.
You're missing the point. You asked me what I was doing to make a difference, besides posting on a wrestling message board. I gave you yet another example what I was doing to help, to make my voice heard, and you said I wasn't doing anything because no one in government actually pays attention to those.

You clearly were wrong. As the video of the President himself confirms.
 

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