3.3.11 Vignette; Is Sting Is Coming Back to TNA?

[Rayne]

But why did they mark out for Booker T and Nash? You heard the pops. Was it because of the possibility of them working with someone, or because they heard their classic theme songs, they saw their entrances, remembered of how it used to be when these guys were around? Was it because they're such great assets to the company, or was it because it was a blast from the past. The excitement was generated by the music, the entrance, the lights, the fact that they're back in WWE, not the possibility of them wrestling Jack Swagger.

They popped because Booker T and Nash returning were complete surprises, with the exception of the minority of fans who read spoilers on the internet. TNA might start getting reactions like this if they stopped telling their fans to EXPECT A HUGE SURPRISE THIS THURSDAY NIGHT!!!! As it is, every TNA 'surprise' over the past year has had massive amounts of foreshadowing; they don't know how to just pull something out of nowhere for shock value.

If John Cena walked into the Impact Zone unannounced, I'd shit myself. Not because I'm a John Cena fan (I get why he's popular, but he doesn't do it for me personally), but for two reasons. One, it's something that people wouldn't expect. (Go back to yesterdays post about the difference between expectations, surprise, and shock.) Two, and this is the biggie- I'd be more shocked that TNA didn't spoil their own surprise before it happened.

And here's a fun thought. If WWE fans are so excited about Sting being in WWE to wrestle someone he never wrestled before, why are they not equally as excited to see Ric Flair wrestle Jay Lethal or AJ Styles. Why are they not excited to maybe see Sting vs Jeff Hardy or Sting versus Mr.Anderson? Are wrestlers only good when they're in the WWE? Is that why people turn on former WWE wrestlers for going to TNA? The same wrestlers they praised? This is where the brainwashing comes from. "If it's WWE, it's good. If it goes to TNA, it's bad". Look around the forums, it's always been like that.

Because Jay Lethal and AJ Styles are nobodies. People could give a shit about Sting wrestling Jack Swagger; you bring up that name just to make a ridiculous comparison. (Another one of those logical fallacies.) There are plenty of people who would want to see Sting work with Undertaker, Triple H, or any other main eventers who were around for the Monday Night Wars. (We're running out of those fast.)

It's not "brainwashing", again; it's that no one gives two shits about Jay Lethal, AJ Styles, or anyone else in the TNA midcard, because they haven't been given a reason to give a shit about them. That's brainwashing of a sort- they call it 'marketing'.

OR I can't stand the WWE's bromidic, boring, repetitive product, infested with half-assing wrestlers who don't know what the hell they're doing in the ring - so they're told to "slow down", and don't know the first thing about cutting a promo - so their promos are scripted word for word. God am I wrong for not liking it.

Are you trying to validate what I said here about you liking TNA because you dislike the WWE, or what? Seriously, this is a paragraph I would have left out of your argument if you're trying to disagree with me here, because I don't think you could have illustrated what I was trying to say any better.

He didn't say that? Let's rewind.

"Hulk Hogan hobbling down to the ring in TNA...meaningless. Hulk Hogan hobbling down to a WWE ring, in red and yellow with "Real American" blasting through the arena...HUGE."

My mistake, he did. However, you stretched the hell out of his argument to make your own point. Here's his point (I hope, otherwise it's not that clear): Hulk Hogan is a commodity. It's like going to see Kiss at a local bar; they're an arena band. You go to see them for the show, and Hulk Hogan is no different. TNA, right now, isn't producing "the show", they're producing WCW Saturday Night. It just looks low budget. That's what he means when he's saying that TNA doesn't know how to market Hulk Hogan, because besides his name and image, what is he really offering these days?

Don't, however, take this as a validation of your "lights and pyro" theory. That's like saying that because Kiss is best in an arena, that Kaki King and Herra Terra (free plugs! Look them up folks!) are best seen in an arena.

Another example: I love baseball. But I could give a shit about the minor leagues; I could give a shit about the Japanese corporate leagues. Does this mean I've been "brainwashed" by Major League Baseball? Does that mean I'm not a 'real' baseball fan, because I wouldn't give a shit if Derek Jeter signed with the Hanshin Tigers?

Image does count; however, you're stretching this and trying to say that image is the only thing that matters to people who aren't 'real' wrestling fans like.... oh, you probably consider yourself to be?

Flair on the other hand is even better than he was in the WWE, and Foley is the same except for a theme song.

Flair just looks awful these days. He has for the past decade, so don't think this is a TNA/WWE thing. He's cutting the exact same promos; go back and watch his Evolution days if you want examples. I'm not sure if anyone wants to see Flair wrestle anymore, however. If I wanted to watch someone that old fight, I'd go to a nursing home and tell the residents that only one person can see their family that day.

See, I used to be a WWE fan, a mark just like the rest and I hated TNA for absolutely no reason other than the fact it's not WWE. I loved Foley in WWE, but when I found out that he went to TNA the first thought that crossed my mind was "fucking traitor". I know for a fact that the majority of this forum thinks the exact same way about all the WWE guys who got fired/left and went to TNA, because they act in the same ignorant fashion I did.

Fortunately, I did what a lot of WWE fans can't do. I gave TNA a chance. I looked past the IWC remarks about TNA being a spot-fest, a hillbilly company, TNA this, TNA that, and I started enjoying it to the point where WWE's product looked stale, boring and couldn't match TNA's. I don't like WWE, because it's not as good as TNA.

Wow. Get over yourself, kid.

Just because someone doesn't like TNA doesn't mean that they have the exact same thinking that you do. That is an incredibly ignorant and narcissist statement. (Look it up.) That might be the cause of your problems here; you aren't responding to what people who disagree with you have to say, you're responding to your own personal ghosts.

 

[Green Bay Wisconsin]

- Following Thursday’s iMPACT,Dixie Carter’s Facebook and Twitter pages were bombarded with negative feedback on TNA’s “3-3-11″ video and the “shocker of the year.”

Just thought i'd throw this up here

 

[shitsngiggles]

TNA flopped hard on this potential positive. They could have gone with the following angle:

Seen the WWE Promos and slashed any buzz by bringing sting back straigh away, that would have said a huge FU! to the WWE. But they didn't, they waited until Raw had the build up, momentum and the story. Then tried to copy the WWE.

It wasn't a middle finger to the WWE at all, if they wanted to do that they would have put Sting on air much sooner to squash any BS.

TNA is sucking hard right now, but, WWE isn't far behind them.

They should have pushed a vignette with HHH not Undertaker. And kept it really quiet. Suggest a former WWE superstars return but not so obviously. And bring undertaker in to confront HHH.

 

[Doctor_What]

TNA dropped the ball big time.

To me it looked as though WWE had tried to kill the Sting speculation with the Johnny Cash music and shot of Takers face. Despite this speculation continued and people tuned in to Raw on the 21st just in case. TNA removed Stings profile kept there mouths shut waited till the 21st and then tried to be funny with there promo.

They had a chance to nip the speculation in the bud as soon as it started they must have known that Sting wasnt going to WWE and could have ran a counter promo straight away and killed the hype. Instead they sat back watched then tried to be clever afterwards.

 

[SimplyJay]

think carefully people. ANd any bad or good publicity results to good ratings. People are talking abt it. they just keep talking abt it. This is bischoffs golden plan n in my opinion it worked

 

[JaredJammer]

I thought it was pretty good mockery myself; a good showing up of the WWE by re-signing the hottest free agent in wrestling, Sting, and ending the fans' wet dreams of a Wrestlemania match versus The Undertaker.

 

[Lionheart]

think carefully people. ANd any bad or good publicity results to good ratings. People are talking abt it. they just keep talking abt it. This is bischoffs golden plan n in my opinion it worked

Unfortunately for Bischoff and his golden plan, if you keep over-promising and under-delivering, the wrestling fans are just going to talk amongst themselves, agreeing that they don't wish to support a company that pulls such bullshit tactics.

I thought it was pretty good mockery myself; a good showing up of the WWE by re-signing the hottest free agent in wrestling, Sting, and ending the fans' wet dreams of a Wrestlemania match versus The Undertaker.

Sting is the hottest free agent in wrestling? Are you kidding? No disrespect to Sting, whom I admire for his varied accomplishments in the business, but what about him makes him the hottest free agent in wrestling? WWE would not have been able to get him to work a full schedule, they already have Kevin Nash as their "ambassador", they just put Booker T in as a commentator...what role could Sting possibly fill that has WWE positively slavering on themselves to get him? One match to put 'Taker over at 'Mania? One of their agents? I honestly don't think WWE really cares and I don't think any fans are so heartbroken that they aren't going to tune in to watch the biggest wrestling event of the year.

 

[Dizzy]

The fact is WWE made that promo and the assumption was Sting was the mystery man. They used soundbites of Sting's WCW theme within the first promo. WWE hyped something of TNA's property and ended up failing by delivering Triple H vs. Undertaker...which makes no sense and nobody cares.

Now, the whole promo thing was so talked about people actually made TNA look stupid for losing Kevin Nash, Booker and Sting...So, TNA basically fires back delivering a promo that people actually thought was going to happen in the first place.

I don't agree with it myself but it's hard not to do it. Call it bush league all you want but if this was WCW, nobody would complain. WWE insinuated Sting was coming to their company and created buzz off of it. TNA actually is creating buzz this way while delivering the actual person that was hyped by WWE.

 

[boywithatoy]

I'm sorry if someone has pointed this out before (26 pages is a lot to get through!) but how can this be tna ripping off wwe? The footage tna used was old footage. The shot of the stairwell was taken from this promo back in 2006:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmYhk7uemfI&feature=relmfu

and I swear the rain footage was taken from a promo from a couple of years back - there's this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAIvCGTZ7OI

but this is the one with everyone in it. I swear there was a longer one with just Sting, which is where the other footage came from.

If this is the case, and tna used old footage then if people say that tna copied wwe then you have to also say that wwe copied tna in the first place. Yeah tna stuck the date on the end but i think that was just a little dig at the wwe saying "you stole our promo idea so we'll steal yours" as well as playing off the internet rumours.

 

[Weems2k]

Obviously, the WWE tools, the IWC knobs, and Wrestlezone don't get what the promo really meant. They were all certain that 2-21 was Sting and Taker for Mania. Nope, sorry. You IWC dirtball losers aren't as knowledgeable as you think. So TNA one up's the WWE by giving a true return of Sting. Everyone knows it's Sting, which makes the 3-3-11 promo all that great. It's basically Sting/TNA giving a big F-You to the IWC marks, and Vince.

What really gets me is that people bitch that Sting blew an opportunity to go to the WWE, yet has said he would never work for Vince. If Sting did sign, the same dirtballs would be bitching that Sting sold out by going to work for Vince. Props to Sting for keeping his word.

 

[CrayzChris]

Am I the only person here who is sick and tired of seeing 3-3-11 mentioned in EVERY single thread on this board? I can't take it. Enough already.

Let's just wait to see what happens when the ratings come out for Impact! over the next few weeks, and let's see if TNA's "biggest surprise in the history of big surprises" actually delivers.

We have been debating this topic to death. Let's see what happens over the next few weeks. Let TNA put their money where their mouth is. Will Sting REALLY make any difference in TNA? We'll just have to wait and find out...

And then, when inevitably nothing changes in TNA, we can all come back here and talk about how meaningless Sting's return was, and how pissed we are that ever since Sting came back, Samoa Joe and Matt Morgan have been off TV for 3 weeks, Crimson's push died down, and AJ Styles falls to #2 babyface in the company in favor of another 50 year old has been.

 

[SimplyJay]

Unfortunately for Bischoff and his golden plan, if you keep over-promising and under-delivering, the wrestling fans are just going to talk amongst themselves, agreeing that they don't wish to support a company that pulls such bullshit tactics.

We all are talking about it aren't we? In wrestling business as someone has said,"Any publicity good or bad is a good thing." People complain here and there about TNA too many times but this time its about just one thing too many times. It has created a buzz n it shall result to a better fruition. TNA has done a good job this time.

 

[Rayne]

We all are talking about it aren't we? In wrestling business as someone has said,"Any publicity good or bad is a good thing."

That phrase is a tremendous misstatement. How's OJ Simpson's movie career? Are you picking up the new Chris Brown album, "The Hits Just Keep On Coming"? I guarantee you that if Sting came to the ring this Thursday, dropped his pants and took a shit in the middle of the ring, a lot of people would be talking about it on Friday morning, but I don't think it'd be the kind of "mainstream exposure" TNA would be looking for. (It would however definitely surprise me, to say the least.)

Bad publicity isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it has to be deftly handled. The archetype example of this in wrestling would be the "Mr. McMahon" character; spawned from the raging heat dumped upon Vince after the Montreal Screwjob. At the time, it looked like Vince had shot himself in the foot- they even hauled Jim Ross out for special segments called "Why Bret Why". Vince looked like a tremendous douchebag, and he took that and made it into one of the most hated characters in wrestling history.

I'm not sure if the same could be done with a 'disappointed fan' angle, but you can never say never. I can say that if it could be done, that the people who could do it aren't working for TNA right now.

 

[Lionheart]

We all are talking about it aren't we? In wrestling business as someone has said,"Any publicity good or bad is a good thing." People complain here and there about TNA too many times but this time its about just one thing too many times. It has created a buzz n it shall result to a better fruition. TNA has done a good job this time.

Absolutely we are talking about it. Quite negatively, I would point out. TNA, through it's poor, convoluted booking and bullshit marketing, has ensured that I would never put down a dollar towards any of their live events, products or PPVs and would never spend a minute of my time actually tuning in to an episode of Impact. I just catch the highlights on Youtube and shake my head incredulously.

I'm not saying that anyone is or should follow my lead, but I have a hunch that the decision has already been made by several people and for those who were considering it previously to 2.24.11, the decision just got a whole lot easier.

This is a business, the fans are the wrestling company's customers. When you LIE to your customers, they don't provide you with their patronage.

Anyways, let TNA make me eat my words. Let's see the dramatic increase in ratings and PPV buys. That would be MY Shocking Surprise of the Year - Guaranteed.

 

[Zeven_Zion]

Absolutely we are talking about it. Quite negatively, I would point out. TNA, through it's poor, convoluted booking and bullshit marketing, has ensured that I would never put down a dollar towards any of their live events, products or PPVs and would never spend a minute of my time actually tuning in to an episode of Impact. I just catch the highlights on Youtube and shake my head incredulously.

I'm not saying that anyone is or should follow my lead, but I have a hunch that the decision has already been made by several people and for those who were considering it previously to 2.24.11, the decision just got a whole lot easier.

This is a business, the fans are the wrestling company's customers. When you LIE to your customers, they don't provide you with their patronage.

Anyways, let TNA make me eat my words. Let's see the dramatic increase in ratings and PPV buys. That would be MY Shocking Surprise of the Year - Guaranteed.

If I remember correctly, people were even more negative after the reveal of "they" at Bound for Glory, and we all talked about it and TNA pulled a big rating afterwards, didn't they?

You see, people talk shit about TNA this, TNA that. They've been doing it for the last nine years. You'll talk shit today, watch it this Thursday so "you see what happens", and they got a viewer. Simple as that. Some haters tune in or DVR just so they can FIND something to crap on to make themselves feel like they know something the others don't, and BAM, TNA got itself a viewer.

So who's the dumb one in this situation? TNA who pisses you off with controversial videos that cause so much ruckus, or you, the fans who keeps tuning in DESPITE how negative you were toward it. C'mon, you know the answer.

 

[3/4 Facelock]

Zevon, as I have stated in a post before....TNA can keep doing all this bait-and-switch and copying they want. They can "trick" people into watching week after week. But for how long with this tactic work?

We will talk about it. That's what the fucking purpose of these forums are for you stupid idiot. As I have said before, the worst thing that can happen to TNA is that nobody talks about them anymore. As far as I can see, not only the TNA haters and WWE marks are upset with TNA, a section of their own fans are as well.

When they stop...well, then you and the 4 other TNA supermarks left here will have the whole forum to yourselves. Then you can greenrep eachother until your nuts pop.

 

[Lionheart]

If I remember correctly, people were even more negative after the reveal of "they" at Bound for Glory, and we all talked about it and TNA pulled a big rating afterwards, didn't they?

You see, people talk shit about TNA this, TNA that. They've been doing it for the last nine years. You'll talk shit today, watch it this Thursday so "you see what happens", and they got a viewer. Simple as that. Some haters tune in or DVR just so they can FIND something to crap on to make themselves feel like they know something the others don't, and BAM, TNA got itself a viewer.

So who's the dumb one in this situation? TNA who pisses you off with controversial videos that cause so much ruckus, or you, the fans who keeps tuning in DESPITE how negative you were toward it. C'mon, you know the answer.

I do know the answer. The answer is you don't read posts correctly. I don't tune in and I do nothing to further TNA's success as long as they keep pulling stupid crap. I don't buy PPVs, I don't watch their show. I simply catch the highlights posted on Youtube so that I can see if there is a possibility of some improvement or happenings of interest. So far, NADA.

I will "talk shit" about TNA as long as they keep giving me a reason to. If they produce garbage, I will say something about it. That's the beauty about WZ forums, man. It's a forum. If I see a company that lies to their fans, that is stupid and I will say so.

Lastly, if you're going to argue, at least have the decency to read my full post.

 

[MB1025]

So let me get this straight. How was this a bait and switch?

If TNA as a company believes Sting is the biggest surprise of this short year then why shouldn't they market him as such? Just because you feel like you have been let down doesn't mean TNA didn't do what they advertised.

Car companies do this all the time. According to Ford they have the best trucks. Well that isn't what Dodge is saying.

I saw the other day Chris Jericho made a comment about believing you are the best company in the world. Well TNA tried to pass THEIR wrestler off as the biggest surprise of the year. That doesn't mean TNA is pulling the same BS. The only thing TNA copied was the 3-3-11 ending and to me it was because they acknowledged that fans thought Sting was going to the WWE.

TNA didn't lie to anyone. If you feel like you have been lied to then you are an idiot. I knew this was Sting the minute it was announced that a suprise was happening because it was common sense and the only reason people are mad is because Sting isn't in the WWE and they used the numbers to tell everyone Sting was coming.

The little BS people will complain about.

 

[sfury2005]

The video itself was a normal Sting type return video he always comes back using. Adding the numbers on the end was a dig at WWE but oh well..

I guess you all were angry at WWE for the Attitude era using tables, chairs and blood because it copied ECW.

Some would say they copied WCW and NWO with DX.

WWE mocked WCW with Billionaire Ted, Gilberg and skits mocking Hogan I guess. But let TNA mention WWE and it's bush league.

DX shows up at an Arena where WCW is having a show wearing battle fatigues and calling out the NWO and no one cried. But let TNA do the same thing and they get crucified for it.

Pretty much a lot of the things in wrestling today have been done somewhere in someway with different names and people so most promotions copy things.

But it seems people hold TNA to a higher standard than WWE/F.

Edit to add: I also see people calling TNA out for taking guys WWE dropped like Anderson, Pope and Morgan. Funny how WWE took a bunch of guys WCW dropped and they became stars. Names like Undertaker, HHH, Jericho, Austin, Eddie Guerrero, Big Show, Benoit, Foley and many others.

 

[Rayne]

So let me get this straight. How was this a bait and switch?

If TNA as a company believes Sting is the biggest surprise of this short year then why shouldn't they market him as such? Just because you feel like you have been let down doesn't mean TNA didn't do what they advertised.

Car companies do this all the time. According to Ford they have the best trucks. Well that isn't what Dodge is saying.

As I explained to IDR earlier when he brought up the same point, it's not a matter of what you as a company believe. It's about what you get your customers to believe, and then following through on that.

TNA has to get their fans to tune in every week. They aren't selling a car; there are millions of people in the world who wish they hadn't bought a Ford Escort, but once the sale is made, it's made, and the time you own a car for is time enough to forgive a lot of things. (Although I haven't bought a Ford since.) How is this a 'bait and switch'? TNA offered their fans something; "The Biggest Surprise of the Year, Guaranteed", and offered that as the bait in order to get fans to tune in. The result wasn't all that 'surprising'; it was a short video package.

It's not the fans fault for being led to believe more; it's TNA's fault for failing to manage expectations. That's all professional wrestling is, at its roots; creating expectations for the fans to have in you, then leaving them with more so that they go away and say "I'm glad I tuned in tonight; I'll be sure to next week." That's something I haven't heard out of anyone's mouth in this whole 3/3/11 mess.

It doesn't matter if your fans have a good point or a silly one. You want their money. Having them turn on Impact for a week doesn't make you a single dime; advertisers don't pay for the show, they pay based on the rolling average of your ratings. (It's more complex then that, but that's enough to explain the concept.) Smart fans and silly ones each carry money that's the same color, and if you're in the professional wrestling business, you aren't marketing to Rhodes scholars. You need to give them a reason to come back; it isn't the fans' job to find one.

 

[sfury2005]

As I explained to IDR earlier when he brought up the same point, it's not a matter of what you as a company believe. It's about what you get your customers to believe, and then following through on that.

TNA has to get their fans to tune in every week. They aren't selling a car; there are millions of people in the world who wish they hadn't bought a Ford Escort, but once the sale is made, it's made, and the time you own a car for is time enough to forgive a lot of things. (Although I haven't bought a Ford since.) How is this a 'bait and switch'? TNA offered their fans something; "The Biggest Surprise of the Year, Guaranteed", and offered that as the bait in order to get fans to tune in. The result wasn't all that 'surprising'; it was a short video package.

It's not the fans fault for being led to believe more; it's TNA's fault for failing to manage expectations. That's all professional wrestling is, at its roots; creating expectations for the fans to have in you, then leaving them with more so that they go away and say "I'm glad I tuned in tonight; I'll be sure to next week." That's something I haven't heard out of anyone's mouth in this whole 3/3/11 mess.

It doesn't matter if your fans have a good point or a silly one. You want their money. Having them turn on Impact for a week doesn't make you a single dime; advertisers don't pay for the show, they pay based on the rolling average of your ratings. (It's more complex then that, but that's enough to explain the concept.) Smart fans and silly ones each carry money that's the same color, and if you're in the professional wrestling business, you aren't marketing to Rhodes scholars. You need to give them a reason to come back; it isn't the fans' job to find one.

We're only 2 months into the year so it doesn't take much to be the biggest surprise this far into the year and to a Sting fan him returning is a big deal.

Just like the WWE thinks The Rock, Undertaker, HHH and Austin returning are a big deal.. I never liked WWE and never watched it so it isn't a big deal to me. It's a matter of perception and one person can't say what the perception of it was to the casual TNA fan that doesn't read these boards.

I'm excited to see Impact this week because it is out of the Impact Zone. That's plenty to make me happy and hoping they get on the road more.

 

[MB1025]

As I explained to IDR earlier when he brought up the same point, it's not a matter of what you as a company believe. It's about what you get your customers to believe, and then following through on that.

TNA has to get their fans to tune in every week. They aren't selling a car; there are millions of people in the world who wish they hadn't bought a Ford Escort, but once the sale is made, it's made, and the time you own a car for is time enough to forgive a lot of things. (Although I haven't bought a Ford since.) How is this a 'bait and switch'? TNA offered their fans something; "The Biggest Surprise of the Year, Guaranteed", and offered that as the bait in order to get fans to tune in. The result wasn't all that 'surprising'; it was a short video package.

It's not the fans fault for being led to believe more; it's TNA's fault for failing to manage expectations. That's all professional wrestling is, at its roots; creating expectations for the fans to have in you, then leaving them with more so that they go away and say "I'm glad I tuned in tonight; I'll be sure to next week." That's something I haven't heard out of anyone's mouth in this whole 3/3/11 mess.

It doesn't matter if your fans have a good point or a silly one. You want their money. Having them turn on Impact for a week doesn't make you a single dime; advertisers don't pay for the show, they pay based on the rolling average of your ratings. (It's more complex then that, but that's enough to explain the concept.) Smart fans and silly ones each carry money that's the same color, and if you're in the professional wrestling business, you aren't marketing to Rhodes scholars. You need to give them a reason to come back; it isn't the fans' job to find one.

It wasn't a bait and switch. They said they had the biggest surprise of the year. Just because you don't think it is doesn't mean it didn't work. Here is an example because I know what most people wanted.

Say they signed Chris Jericho and he made an appearance. Well not everyone would have liked it or been surprised for whatever reason. Then in your eyes that is not delivering because a portion of the viewers didn't like it.

Your making this much bigger and complicated then what it is.

Do you know when TNA advertised this shocking moment? 2 days before Impact aired. Do you know where they advertised it? On their website.

So besides the dirt sheet websites picking this up it was mainly intended for the normal TNA viewer and then the internet wrestling fan made his mind up to tune in or not.

So to TNA fans who actually watch each and every week and enjoy the product liked what they say. It was a classic Sting promo advertising him for the next week and a lot of people enjoy Sting.

Your clearly taking this in way to many directions. There isn't one guy in wrestling that would have made everyone happy. Since there isn't you have no base to your argument. How does one deliver a surprise that everyone will like anyways. Your just assuming no one was surprised and are also using a small portion of a community as your evidence. That is just stupid

 

[Rayne]

It wasn't a bait and switch. They said they had the biggest surprise of the year. Just because you don't think it is doesn't mean it didn't work. Here is an example because I know what most people wanted.

Say they signed Chris Jericho and he made an appearance. Well not everyone would have liked it or been surprised for whatever reason. Then in your eyes that is not delivering because a portion of the viewers didn't like it.

Where did I make an argument based on having an absolute unanimity in agreement? This isn't my argument at all, and never was. The argument is that quite a lot of people feel disappointed; moreso then the lot of people who are normally disappointed in TNA's programming. The two most popular threads on this part of the forums are this one and the "Tons of..." thread. There are people defending TNA, but the overall point of view seems to be "that's it?"

You never get everyone to agree on everything, and it's ridiculous that you'd try and accuse me of trying to make that a prerequisite for my argument.

Your clearly taking this in way to many directions. There isn't one guy in wrestling that would have made everyone happy. Since there isn't you have no base to your argument. How does one deliver a surprise that everyone will like anyways. Your just assuming no one was surprised and are also using a small portion of a community as your evidence. That is just stupid

Never said there had to be "one person to make anyone happy", and that was never a part of my argument. That's an indefensible statement; why would I make it the base of my argument? Where did I say "everyone had to like it"?

At a stretch, what I said is that of the people that we can observe and see, quite a few people are disappointed in the results of this "surprise". Your argument seems to be that since we can't see the entire TNA community on these boards, the portion we can't see must agree with your position. That is just stupid.

 

[MB1025]

Where did I make an argument based on having an absolute unanimity in agreement? This isn't my argument at all, and never was. The argument is that quite a lot of people feel disappointed; moreso then the lot of people who are normally disappointed in TNA's programming. The two most popular threads on this part of the forums are this one and the "Tons of..." thread. There are people defending TNA, but the overall point of view seems to be "that's it?"

You never get everyone to agree on everything, and it's ridiculous that you'd try and accuse me of trying to make that a prerequisite for my argument.

Never said there had to be "one person to make anyone happy", and that was never a part of my argument. That's an indefensible statement; why would I make it the base of my argument? Where did I say "everyone had to like it"?

At a stretch, what I said is that of the people that we can observe and see, quite a few people are disappointed in the results of this "surprise". Your argument seems to be that since we can't see the entire TNA community on these boards, the portion we can't see must agree with your position. That is just stupid.

Again who is quite a few people? This message board? Other message boards?

You honestly don't have an argument. You keep saying they didn't deliver a surprise based on quite a bit of people not liking it. The only people you can observe and see are on this site.

We can't see the entire community and that is my point and IDR's point. Your going around acting like what your saying is 100 percent fact when it is your opinion that is was a failure. Then you turn around and use a very SMALL portion of the audience as proof that it failed.

 

[Rayne]

Again who is quite a few people? This message board? Other message boards?

You honestly don't have an argument. You keep saying they didn't deliver a surprise based on quite a bit of people not liking it. The only people you can observe and see are on this site.

We can't see the entire community and that is my point and IDR's point. Your going around acting like what your saying is 100 percent fact when it is your opinion that is was a failure. Then you turn around and use a very SMALL portion of the audience as proof that it failed.

But you're using a very LARGE portion of the audience that you can't see, and are assuming they must agree with your point of view. How is making a declaration based upon a group that can't be measured better then making an observation based upon the information that's available?

No shit, it's my opinion. I just do a good enough job of expressing my opinions that people get the impression I'm stating fact. I cite my sources and provide the coherent logic I use to arrive at my position. I have a high degree of confidence in the material I post, and this is why you don't see me going "but this is only my opinion......" every paragraph.

Your point rests on a logical fallacy; that an immeasurable group has an opinion greatly at odds with my position. It's ideal for internet arguments, because it's an argument which relies on the fact that it can't be proven. I will still rest on the confidence of my position, with the supporting information readers can choose to view for themselves; I am afraid I find your 'all these invisible people must disagree with you' position lacking.

And, for the record, that wasn't what IDR was arguing in his post at all.