Wrestlezone Tournament Finals: Bret Hart vs. Edge

[Shocky]

The following match is the Final Match for the Third Annual Wrestlezone Tournament. Keep in mind that this is the third match of the night as we are now into the King of the Ring style segment of the tournament. This match is from Houston TX, in Reliant Stadium.​

Bret "The Hitman" Hart​

vs.

The Rated R Superstar Edge​

As a side note, I will abstain from voting in this round, unless the voting is out of hand. There must be a winner in this match, and in the event of a tie, I will hold the tie breaking vote.

 

[The Todd]

With all the outcries over how the voting has been done for this tournament I'm not entirely sure how you're meant to vote anymore.

If it's on accomplishments well Edge has nine world titles whereas Hart has seven in two different companies. Is Hart's more impressive being in two companies where there is only one titl? Or is Edge's for there being more? Edge won his frome like Cena, 'Taker and HHH, RVD, Jeff Hardy and Batista whilst Hart won his from Flair, 'Taker, Benoit, Diesel Goldberg and Yokozuna. Both are damn impressive but I'll just give the edge to Edge.

If it's on in ring ability, and by which I mean psychology and story telling, not technical skills which mean fuck all, I'd have to go with Hart narrowly. Edge is a damn good heel in the ring. He has the role to a tee but Hart was outstanding at both.

If it's on how much of an impact they had on the business (in which case you have to remember Edge has a good few years left in him). Hart has carried a company at a time when they were rebuilding after losing Hogan. It wasn't a very good point in the companies history but he did help carry it. Edge has not had the opportunity to carry a company but he did carry Smackdown for a while at a time the company had quite a few big name superstars. I would say it is pretty much equal,, though I'm sure plenty of people will call this bullshit. Edge carrying a brand is to me as good as carrying the company. He WAS Smackdown for a whole year in which he main evented the PPV with the Undertaker and seemed a credible threat to the streak.

Becasue none of this matters, my deciding factor for my vote is whose work I have preferred. I will not doubt Hart was brilliant but he was before my time. Whilst I have seen old school videos of Savage, Hogan etc and been caught up in a whirlwind Hart never had that same affect on me. I have been told by a few people Hart's best match was the ironman match, which I found incredibly boring until the end.

Edge on the otherhand was one of the superstars who got me back interested in wrestling. His matches are outstanding and always entertain. His feud with Cena has been my personal favourite since Rock vs Austin. When he retires he will have had more of an affect on me than Hart will have had. Edge gets my vote, but I don't think Will's campaign will stop Hart winning overall.

 

[Mr. TM]

With all the outcries over how the voting has been done for this tournament I'm not entirely sure how you're meant to vote anymore.

Who is the best wrestler. Bret Hart.

If it's on accomplishments well Edge has nine world titles whereas Hart has seven in two different companies.

Edge winning his when the title passes around in a world title hot potato match. In a company with TWO world titles.

Is Hart's more impressive being in two companies where there is only one titl?

To be the main man in two different companies? hell of an accomplishment.

Or is Edge's for there being more?

Amount of titles matter little. Reigns matter. How many successful defenses does Edge have?

Edge won his frome like Cena

After Cena had just competed in a match, and had no time to prepare for another?

Also in another multi man match.

And lastly with the help of The Big Show

'Taker

After Taker had just competed in a match and had no time to prepare for another?

and HHH,

Triple Threat match, that was billed as the worst worked match of the year.

RVD

Triple Threat match, after RVD got arrested.

, Jeff Hardy

Should never be in the main event. And it was a triple Threat as well.

and Batista

Another Triple Threat match.

Seems Edge cannot win a championship match One on One.

whilst Hart won his from Flair

16 time world champion

'Taker

Clean

Benoit

Yep

Diesel

What a beast he was.

Goldberg

Unstoppable at the time

and Yokozuna

After having another match earlier on that night.

Both are damn impressive but I'll just give the edge to Edge.

How?

If it's on in ring ability, and by which I mean psychology and story telling

Bret is the master of storytelling. The ring is his canvas, and he paints the picture everytime he wrestled.

not technical skills which mean fuck all

Saying that because Bret is so overwhelming better?

I'd have to go with Hart narrowly.

srly?

Edge is a damn good heel in the ring.

Better heel outside the ring then inside.

He has the role to a tee but Hart was outstanding at both.

It is called being multi dimensional

If it's on how much of an impact they had on the business (in which case you have to remember Edge has a good few years left in him).

What will Edge be remembered for in 50 years?

Hart has carried a company at a time when they were rebuilding after losing Hogan.

Carrying an entire company. The biggest wrestling entity ever, The World Wrestling Federation. Not carrying a brand, carrying the company.

It wasn't a very good point in the companies history but he did help carry it.

Help? It was all on him.

Edge has not had the opportunity to carry a company

The company that Bret preserved.

but he did carry Smackdown for a while at a time the company had quite a few big name superstars.

That were injured.

I would say it is pretty much equal,, though I'm sure plenty of people will call this bullshit.

Bullshit.

Edge carrying a brand is to me as good as carrying the company.

Brands are storylines. If Vince thought there was real trouble, he would move people over.

He WAS Smackdown for a whole year in which he main evented the PPV with the Undertaker

Undertaker was the centerpiece. Batista when he returned.

and seemed a credible threat to the streak.

Did anyone actually think Edge was going over?

Becasue none of this matters, my deciding factor for my vote is whose work I have preferred. I will not doubt Hart was brilliant but he was before my time.

Go watch his DVD.

Whilst I have seen old school videos of Savage, Hogan etc and been caught up in a whirlwind Hart never had that same affect on me.

Maybe because you had to be there.

I have been told by a few people Hart's best match was the ironman match, which I found incredibly boring until the end.

They are lying.

Imagine Edge in an Iron Man match.

Edge on the otherhand was one of the superstars who got me back interested in wrestling.

You probably like title changes.

His matches are outstanding and always entertain.

Didnt see Survivor Series?

When he retires he will have had more of an affect on me than Hart will have had.

Because you watched it.

Edge gets my vote, but I don't think Will's campaign will stop Hart winning overall.

Becaue Edge isn't as good. That statement admits it.

 

[pyrusane]

Well well well...we've come to this point. I find myself in the odd position of voting for someone that I don't even think should have made it this far. I fully believe that Edge should have lost easily to Brock Lesnar, and I voted that way. I fully believed that Edge would lose a close match against Steve Austin, and I voted that way. And I had no doubt that Edge should have lost (again) to the Undertaker, and I again voted that way.

Now, however, Edge is against Bret Hart. And for the first time in four rounds, I think Edge is the better man in the match, and will vote that way.

I have not been swayed by Will's posts, because I think they are a lot of double-speaking crap (in this tourney, not in general). Will has tried to make cases in every match for Edge by talking about how he can cheat to win, and be opportunistic, and doing everything he can to make his opponents look over-rated and weak. He had tried to discredit most of those that spoke out against Edge by attacking their arguments and at times their posting abilities just because they had the temerity to disagree with his opinion. No disrespect intended, Will, because I genuinely thoroughly enjoy the majority of your posts, even the really super long ones, but the tactics you've used in the last few rounds of this tournament have really caused me to lose quite a bit of respect for you. Not that my opinion matters to you, of course, why should it? I'm just saying...

But, in this round, I am going to find myself agreeing with you, I think. Edge, whether he should have made it this far or not, absolutely should win this round. Bret Hart was a very, very good wrestler, and is remembered as one of the greatest of all time because...well, mainly because he told you he was. So much of Bret Hart's career is considered great because he was hyped, both by himself and by announcers, as "The best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be." I will not say that Bret is over-rated, but I do believe that a lot of the love he gets now is based more on his hype than his actual ability.

Bret was the best technical wrestler in a promotion that didn't really feature a lot of true technical wrestlers, and especially not in a main-event capacity. In a pile of rocks, a diamond is going to stand out and shine brightly, no matter how many flaws or imperfections it may have. But when dropped into a pile of diamonds, it will eventually get lost in the shuffle. I truly believe that if you were to take the Bret Hart of the mid to late 90's (arguably his prime) and drop him in today's WWE, without the history that he has with the whole Montreal Screwjob deal, he would be at best an upper mid-card talent, every now and then sniffing around in main event territory. That's not to say he didn't deserve all of the accolades and success he received at the time, because for that period of time he was one of, if not the best around. I just don't believe he is one of the best ever.

Edge, however, is one of the best heels of the last decade, perhaps of the last two decades. Yes, he is opportunistic, and yes, he does cheat to win. But he is also a very good wrestler. And he brings a tenacity and a desire to win that I have only seen Bret Hart face in on other opponent. A guy that you may recognize:

And we've seen how that ended before:

Yes, Bret has won KotR twice, and this is a KotR style tourney at this point, but seriously...let's look at his first KotR. He defeated Razor Ramon, then Mr. Perfect, then Bam Bam Bigelow. Now let's look at who he has faced here...The Rock (if anyone wants to debate the Rock being better than Razor Ramon, I'm waiting), Chris Jericho, and now Edge. Ramon and Perfect were tough competitors, to be sure, but I don't think either are on the level of Rock and Jericho. And Bam Bam is certainly no Edge. And in the other one he defeated Pete Doherty(?) Skinner, and Irwin R. Shyster. Uhm, ok.

Bret was a great technical wrestler for the time and the promotion he was in, but in the end I think he is remembered as being far greater than he really is. Edge shows us week in and week out how great he currently is, and sad to say, that is better than Bret Hart.

 

[Mr. TM]

What the hell is that? Is that your reasoning? Bret Isn't as good, because he had no competition?

If a baseball player hits 100 home runs in a year, is he not a great player, because baseball was in a slump?

Is Wilt Chamberlain not a great player when he scored 100 points in a game, because maybe the other team wasn't that good?

If an actor does an incredible performance in a shitty movie, does that mean an actor in a better movie is better?

That is horrible reasonings.

You talk about putting Bret Hart in this era, which is ridiculous. Bret Hart would be PERFECT for this era. Kids love him, parents support his morals, and he could be put into any number of great feuds. He would be the champion now, as he was then.

Put Edge in other eras, and he falls fucking flat. Put him in the Era with Bret Hart, and Edge is nothing. Either Bret or Shawn were twice as good as far of faces or heels.

 

[Phoenix]

Once I knew the final, I was going for Edge already. Reason being, firstly, given that it was meant to a KOTR stipulation, Bret Hart still manages to get over a "fresh" Jericho, and only just, this is what annoyed me about how everyone was going "Edge isn't fresh, he should lose to Austin, Taker, etc" but yet the same rules didn't apply to Bret Hart?! I'm sorry, but if anyone didn't who vote Edge in the semis for that reason but still voted for Bret, that was hypocritical movement there!

Secondly, I just feel that much like Bret's previous opponents that should have gone over (Rock, Jericho), Edge is more rounded as a competitor and isn't just based on technical ability, he has speed, strength and the thinking ability to get what he wants when he wants it and put his body all out to get it done. I just think that where Bret has accomplished great things, I just look at him and think, meh. He was over with the fans, granted, and is a great technical wrestler, but I just found him slow and dull, even the Undertaker of today would be able to run circles around Bret. I think as mentioned, Edge goes into this the better wrestler because he can go toe to toe with the best and still win, he's one of the rare heels that will go over the face of the company and has worked from bottom to the top to get where he is today.

He also has better energy about him compared to Hart and especially in the eras they worked in, Bret was in the period between Hogan and the Attitude era and I think once Bret was gone, the WWE just went on better without him, until he was gone, the Attitude era would have not taken off, Bret did the WWE a favour by letting him go to WCW because it became more entertaining from it, and during his 11 plus years at the company, Edge has been nothing short of entertaining, in the ring and during his promos!

Will further my points later on as I have some packing to do, but Edge is getting my vote and that's not changing.

 

[jmt225]

Bret Hart, in my opinion, is the all around greatest professional wrestler in the history of the sport. When it comes to match quality, no one, and I mean NO ONE, can lace this man’s boots. In fact, it is my opinion that Bret Hart was in the two greatest matches to ever take place in a WWE ring in his matches against Mr. Perfect at Summerslam 1991 and ‘Stone Cold’ Steve Austin at Wrestlemania 13. Not only does he have that going for him, but the Hitman is also top 3 greatest babyfaces the sport has ever seen, when you look at the fact he was such a good, respected role model that people looked up to of ALL ages, sexes, and races. Not just kids looked up to Bret Hart, not just adults, not just males, not just females, not just Americans, not just Canadians… but EVERYONE who was a fan of professional wrestling looked up to this man. And not many people in the history of the sport could ever claim that. Bret just had this presence and charisma about him that was impossible not to admire. Then you add to the fact that the character he portrayed was such a class act, everything a babyface is supposed to be… there just hasn’t been many other babyface champions who could ever live up to that.

Edge, on the other side of the fence, has been establishing himself these past five years as one of the greatest heels WWE has ever had. However, it still doesn’t come close to equaling Bret’s status as a face. No where close, in fact. And while Edge can certainly work and has plenty of great matches in his own right under his belt, none of them equal up to Bret’s greatest matches. None of them. In fact, the only thing Edge is better than Bret at is promo cutting, but that’s not enough for me to vote for Edge, and nor should it be for anyone else. All and all…. Bret Hart is the better professional wrestler. And trust me, saying that is not in the least an insult against Edge, because as I said… he’s up against the greatest professional wrestler of all time in my eyes.

Now… on to Kayfabe.

First of all, let me just say it would be a complete dream to see the Edge of today wrestle the Bret Hart of the early to mid-nineties. In fact, I’d go as far as to say we could not have ended up with a better match-up in the finals, as I’m 100% positive that if this match was to headline Wrestlemania, it’d end up being the greatest ‘Mania main event of all time. That’s how highly I think of these two. But if they were to meet in a high profile match such as this one… I would have my money on Bret ‘The Hitman’ Hart winning.

The only way I could ever see Edge defeating Bret Hart is with some sort of creative roll-up, but to my knowledge… I don’t think I’ve ever seen Edge utilize shit like Small Packages and what not (Will will probably prove me wrong with this one, though), so I don’t see him pulling something like that off.

Bret’s always been vulnerable to rolls ups throughout his career. However, when it comes to being prepared for someone’s finisher, or someone’s heel tactics… I can’t think of anyone who comes to the ring more prepared than Bret Hart. Hart’s character is perhaps the smartest professional wrestler to ever step foot in the ring. When you watch Bret Hart wrestle, it’s like your watching someone who came to the match fully prepared by studying tapes and learning everything about his opponent, because Bret was always ready for anything his opponent was going to dish out. Always. And Edge would be no different.

Edge himself is very versatile in the ring, but at the same time… he relies too much on the same shit to make him win matches. Now, you could say this about Bret Hart, but the difference is that the Hitman’s defense is always there, and you know how the saying goes… Defense wins Championships. And Bret Hart would win this match, and the 3rd Annual Wrestlezone Tournment, with his defense. He would be ready for EVERYTHING Edge would throw at him, and he would counter nearly all of it and turn it into beautiful offense like a successful steal and fast break in basketball. And the great thing about it is, when Edge is able to land something successful on Bret like a Spear out of nowhere or something along those lines, Bret Hart has shown throughout his career that the word Heart isn’t just in his last name, but that he has one as big anyone ever in the professional wrestling Universe. There’s nothing Edge could do to keep that man down for the three count. Nothing.

So, all in all, obviously I’m voting for Bret Hart here. In my mind, the man’s just the greatest, both professionally and kayfabe wise. And there’s not a more deserving person to win this match, and the tournament as a whole than him. As the kids say…. Bret Hart FTW.

 

[pyrusane]

TM, welcome to the party. You are another poster I really enjoy reading, so I am looking forward to debating you. If I get a little sarcastic at times, let me apologize in advance. Its nothing personal.

What the hell is that? Is that your reasoning? Bret Isn't as good, because he had no competition?

No, Bret was very good, I never said he wasn't. I simply said he is remembered as being better than he was because of A) The fact that he was surrounded at the time by mostly inferior talent, and B) The fact that he tells us he was. Read carefully, it really helps.

If a baseball player hits 100 home runs in a year, is he not a great player, because baseball was in a slump?

Interesting. Are we talking about a player during the steroid era, or not? Just curious. Because either way, this is an absolutely ridiculous opening argument. Disregarding the fact that for any baseball player to hit 100 home runs in a single season would be an unprecedented feat the likes of which has no real parallel, and certainly not in wrestling, this has absolutely nothing to do with the situation at hand. Bret Hart is a wrestler, not a baseball player. Totally different skill set, and its really difficult to even find a way to make this analogy work. You are comparing Bret's in-ring work to a baseball player doing something that has never been done before, or even come close to being done. What has Bret accomplished that you compare to this mythical 100 HR season?

Is Wilt Chamberlain not a great player when he scored 100 points in a game, because maybe the other team wasn't that good?

See: my baseball reply. But actually, I can argue against this one a little bit. I won't argue that Wilt Chamberlain wasn't a great player, but does he have a game like that if the other team is a better opponent. Or for that matter, if his own team is playing better basketball, making more shots on their own, does he have to score that many points? And without that achievement, do we remember Wilt the Stilt the same way now? If he doesn't have that 100 point game, does his name have the same power that it does today?

If an actor does an incredible performance in a shitty movie, does that mean an actor in a better movie is better?

Oh, c'mon, this is just dumb. If some hypothetical actor does well in some in some hypothetical movie...fine, I'll work with it. Velvet Goldmine was a fairly crappy movie, but Christian Bale gave an excellent portrayal of a confused young man who grows into a reporter obsessed with the life of Brian Slade. Silence of the Lambs was a much better movie, and starred the great Sir Anthony Hopkins. Hopkins > Bale. See, that was a pretty bad analogy.

That is horrible reasonings.

Yeah, and totally different from the reasoning I used. Lucky me.

You talk about putting Bret Hart in this era, which is ridiculous. Bret Hart would be PERFECT for this era. Kids love him, parents support his morals, and he could be put into any number of great feuds. He would be the champion now, as he was then.

Why? Because you think so? Bret was a product of his times. I agree that he could be in a lot of great feuds right now, but I don't think he would be champion. And that's my opinion. See, we disagree.

Put Edge in other eras, and he falls fucking flat. Put him in the Era with Bret Hart, and Edge is nothing. Either Bret or Shawn were twice as good as far of faces or heels.

How exactly do you reason that? Edge is the type of character that really works in any era. He's manipulative, opportunistic, and sneaky. See: Million Dollar Man. See also: Jake Roberts, Owen Hart (as a heel), Shawn Michaels. Bret became a heel by whining and moaning, and he did that very well. He trashed America and praised Canada, and that got him heat. Except in Canada. He tried to be a face in Canada and a heel in the US. Edge is such a good heel that he manages to get heat even in his hometown. Hell, Edge was able to generate face pops for Shawn freaking Michaels in Canada. And think about that. Bret is Canada's golden boy. Canada, as a whole, hates Shawn Michaels. And yet, against Edge, a Canadian, Shawn Michaels was cheered in Canada. And you tell me Bret is a better heel than Edge.

I eagerly await your reply...

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Well, damn. Ye verily, NorCal must come down off his throne for this one.

Im not in the least bit interested into getting into all this insane scenarios and comparisons that have zero fucking relevance to anything on earth. Im truly not interested. Post if you want, I wont be reading it.

The NorCal formula for voting in this tourney, goes as such

Who is the better pro wrestler

Who would win in kayfabe, IE Kayfabe powers

Who does the match cater to?

Best two of three is winner, winner, chicken dinner.

Better pro wrestler?

Bret Hart, and there is no question whatsoever. The best in ring preformer EVER. The best tag team preformer EVER. The best seller EVER. Never injured an opponet. Was in the best singles match of all time. Wrestled in the best tag match of all time. Wrestled in the best 10 man tag of all time. White hot heel heat, was way over as a face, and was a good, consistent high draw during the WWE's shittiiest of time, when there wasnt much going on outside of him. Damn fine face promos, fucking GREAT heel promos. Bret's heel promos during 1997 are the stuff of fucking legend. Nothing Edge has ever done promo wise can even touch them. Bret Hart, by far and away.

Kayfabe powers?

Bret Hart wins big matches. Edge loses them. Simple as. Does Edge's way of going about things put him in a postion to go over Hart here? yea. Its an even draw for Edge at best. Its not though, is it? Bret wins the big ones. Edge loses them.

Does the match cater to either man?

yes it does, that being Bret Hart.

Mayhem 99
KOR 91
KOR 93

Bret Hart wins tournaments. Matter of fact, I havent seen Bret involved in aany tournament he DIDNT win. He won two matches at WM 10, the first of which, being a grueling battle with his borther Owen. And of course, the Iron Man match. The one were HBK was on the verge of tapping like a bitch had the clock not saved him. We all know Bret had that thing locked up, after 60 minutes. Edge has a KOR to his name, yes, but doesnt have NEAR the resume of Bret Hart when it comes to working, and winning, multiple, or long matches in a night. Bret Hart.

Vote Bret Hart peoples. I am.

 

[pyrusane]

Bret Hart, in my opinion, is the all around greatest professional wrestler in the history of the sport. When it comes to match quality, no one, and I mean NO ONE, can lace this man’s boots. In fact, it is my opinion that Bret Hart was in the two greatest matches to ever take place in a WWE ring in his matches against Mr. Perfect at Summerslam 1991 and ‘Stone Cold’ Steve Austin at Wrestlemania 13. Not only does he have that going for him, but the Hitman is also top 3 greatest babyfaces the sport has ever seen, when you look at the fact he was such a good, respected role model that people looked up to of ALL ages, sexes, and races. Not just kids looked up to Bret Hart, not just adults, not just males, not just females, not just Americans, not just Canadians… but EVERYONE who was a fan of professional wrestling looked up to this man. And not many people in the history of the sport could ever claim that. Bret just had this presence and charisma about him that was impossible not to admire.

I was a kid during Bret's Hart Foundation days, and a teenager during his Main Event run, and while I was a fan of Bret's, I never bought him as champion, and I always found him a little bit stale.

Then you add to the fact that the character he portrayed was such a class act, everything a babyface is supposed to be… there just hasn’t been many other babyface champions who could ever live up to that.

Too bad he threw all of that away when he started whining and moaning about having to job to Shawn Michaels.

Edge, on the other side of the fence, has been establishing himself these past five years as one of the greatest heels WWE has ever had. However, it still doesn’t come close to equaling Bret’s status as a face. No where close, in fact. And while Edge can certainly work and has plenty of great matches in his own right under his belt, none of them equal up to Bret’s greatest matches. None of them. In fact, the only thing Edge is better than Bret at is promo cutting, but that’s not enough for me to vote for Edge, and nor should it be for anyone else. All and all…. Bret Hart is the better professional wrestler. And trust me, saying that is not in the least an insult against Edge, because as I said… he’s up against the greatest professional wrestler of all time in my eyes.

Awesome. If you feel that way, you should vote for Bret. I just won't.

Now… on to Kayfabe.

First of all, let me just say it would be a complete dream to see the Edge of today wrestle the Bret Hart of the early to mid-nineties. In fact, I’d go as far as to say we could not have ended up with a better match-up in the finals, as I’m 100% positive that if this match was to headline Wrestlemania, it’d end up being the greatest ‘Mania main event of all time. That’s how highly I think of these to. But if they were to meet in a high profile match such as this one… I would have my money on Bret ‘The Hitman’ Hart winning.

The only way I could ever see Edge defeating Bret Hart is with some sort of creative roll-up, but to my knowledge… I don’t think I’ve ever seen Edge utilize shit like Small Packages and what not (Will will probably prove me wrong with this one, though), so I don’t see him pulling something like that off.

Bret’s always been vulnerable to rolls ups throughout his career. However, when it comes to being prepared for someone’s finisher, or someone’s heel tactics… I can’t think of anyone who comes to the ring more prepared than Bret Hart. Hart’s character is perhaps the smartest professional wrestler to ever step foot in the ring. When you watch Bret Hart wrestle, it’s like your watching someone who came to the match fully prepared by studying tapes and learning everything about his opponent, because Bret was always ready for anything his opponent was going to dish out. Always. And Edge would be no different.

Edge himself is very versatile in the ring, but at the same time… he relies too much on the same shit to make him win matches. Now, you could say this about Bret Hart, but the difference is that the Hitman’s defense is always there, and you know how the saying goes… Defense wins Championships. And Bret Hart would win this match, and the 3rd Annual Wrestlezone Tournment, with his defense. He would be ready for EVERYTHING Edge would throw at him, and he would counter nearly all of it and turn it into beautiful offense like a successful steal and fast break in basketball. And the great thing about it is, when Edge is able to land something successful on Bret like a Spear out of nowhere or something along those lines, Bret Hart has shown throughout his career that the word Heart isn’t just in his last name, but that he has one as big anyone ever in the professional wrestling Universe. There’s nothing Edge could do to keep that man down for the three count. Nothing.

So, all in all, obviously I’m voting for Bret Hart here. In my mind, the man’s just the greatest, both professionally and kayfabe wise. And there’s not a more deserving person to win this match, and the tournament as a whole than him. As the kids say…. Bret Hart FTW.

I'm not going to dissect all of this, because I think you did a good job explaining your reasoning, and I don't want to attack it. You have very solid reasons why you will vote for Bret, not just "Bret Good, Edge Bad." Your opinion and mine differ, so be it.

 

[Mr. TM]

TM, welcome to the party. You are another poster I really enjoy reading, so I am looking forward to debating you. If I get a little sarcastic at times, let me apologize in advance. Its nothing personal.

Never believed in the use of sarcasm myself.

No, Bret was very good, I never said he wasn't. I simply said he is remembered as being better than he was because of A) The fact that he was surrounded at the time by mostly inferior talent, and B) The fact that he tells us he was. Read carefully, it really helps.

Mr. Perfect, Chris Benoit, Owen Hart, Stone Cold, Shawn Michaels, The Bulldogs, Demolition, need I continue?

Men from all of his eras. Tag team, Mid Card, Main Event. ANd he put up incredible matches.

Here is something interesting. I wanted all four Canadians to go over. Not necessarily because they were Canadian, but because they wrestle my style of wrestling. I would love to see all these men face each other. But the best match-up would be Jericho versus Hart, because Jericho is far superior to Edge, and Bret already went over Jericho.

Interesting. Are we talking about a player during the steroid era, or not? Just curious. Because either way, this is an absolutely ridiculous opening argument. Disregarding the fact that for any baseball player to hit 100 home runs in a single season would be an unprecedented feat the likes of which has no real parallel, and certainly not in wrestling, this has absolutely nothing to do with the situation at hand. Bret Hart is a wrestler, not a baseball player. Totally different skill set, and its really difficult to even find a way to make this analogy work. You are comparing Bret's in-ring work to a baseball player doing something that has never been done before, or even come close to being done. What has Bret accomplished that you compare to this mythical 100 HR season?

Maybe Bret Hart is just that good.

See: my baseball reply. But actually, I can argue against this one a little bit. I won't argue that Wilt Chamberlain wasn't a great player, but does he have a game like that if the other team is a better opponent. Or for that matter, if his own team is playing better basketball, making more shots on their own, does he have to score that many points? And without that achievement, do we remember Wilt the Stilt the same way now? If he doesn't have that 100 point game, does his name have the same power that it does today?

Just analogies. I won't discuss the ramifications of basketball today.

Oh, c'mon, this is just dumb. If some hypothetical actor does well in some in some hypothetical movie...fine, I'll work with it. Velvet Goldmine was a fairly crappy movie, but Christian Bale gave an excellent portrayal of a confused young man who grows into a reporter obsessed with the life of Brian Slade. Silence of the Lambs was a much better movie, and starred the great Sir Anthony Hopkins. Hopkins > Bale. See, that was a pretty bad analogy.

I don't think you fully understood this one.

Yeah, and totally different from the reasoning I used. Lucky me.

I don't see the difference.

Why? Because you think so? Bret was a product of his times. I agree that he could be in a lot of great feuds right now, but I don't think he would be champion. And that's my opinion. See, we disagree.

Do you have any evidence. What do you base it on? Bret Hart is fan friendly, hes a good guy. John Cena almost, and that is what the WWE wants.

How exactly do you reason that? Edge is the type of character that really works in any era. He's manipulative, opportunistic, and sneaky. See: Million Dollar Man. See also: Jake Roberts, Owen Hart (as a heel), Shawn Michaels. Bret became a heel by whining and moaning, and he did that very well. He trashed America and praised Canada, and that got him heat. Except in Canada. He tried to be a face in Canada and a heel in the US. Edge is such a good heel that he manages to get heat even in his hometown. Hell, Edge was able to generate face pops for Shawn freaking Michaels in Canada. And think about that. Bret is Canada's golden boy. Canada, as a whole, hates Shawn Michaels. And yet, against Edge, a Canadian, Shawn Michaels was cheered in Canada. And you tell me Bret is a better heel than Edge.

Edge is only a heel in Canada, because he dissed Canada. Didn't even work actually, because he still popped the next time he went there. As a Canadian, I know how Canadian crowds work. We are all patriotic towards our wrestlers, and we will still pop. Bret Hart knew this and used it. He made it bigger than one man versus America, he made it one nation against another. That is work.

I eagerly await your reply...

Ill try to hit you up on Monday at work if I get time. Let us try and stick to the wrestling this time then.

 

[pyrusane]

Well, damn. Ye verily, NorCal must come down of his throne for this one.

Im not in the least bit interested into getting into all this insane scenarios and comparisons that have zero fucking relevance to anything on earth. Im truly not interested. Post if you want, I wont be reading it.

Can't say I blame you one bit. It can cause headaches.

The NorCal formula for voting in this tourney, goes as such

Who is the better pro wrestler

Who would win in kayfabe, IE Kayfabe powers

Who does the match cater to?

Best two of three is winner, winner, chicken dinner.

At least you have a method that you follow consistently. Instead of just saying I don't like that guy, so I'm voting for this guy...

Better pro wrestler?

Edge

Bret Hart,

Damn, so close...

and there is no question whatsoever. The best in ring preformer EVER. The best tag team preformer EVER. The best seller EVER. Never injured an opponet. White hot heel heat, was way over as a face, and was a good, consistent high draw during the WWE's shittiiest of time, when there wasnt much going on outside of him.

All opinion, which you are entitled to. Just because you have that opinion doesn't make it fact, unfortunately.

Damn fine face promos, fucking GREAT heel promos. Bret's heel promos during 1997 are the stuff of fucking legend. Nothing Edge has ever done promo wise can even touch them. Bret Hart, by far and away.

Seriously? One of Bret's 1997 promos:
[youtube]HVbSgyw2Mx8[/youtube]
I'm sorry, I fell asleep for a moment there, where was I?
[youtube]q31EF-cjx4E[/youtube]
Oh, ok, a heel promo that actually draws heat. I love the line "Where did you come from Jeff Hardy? Didn't you die three years ago?"

Let's continue...

Kayfabe powers?

Bret Hart wins big matches. Edge loses them. Simple as. Does Edge's way of going about things put him in a postion to go over Hart here? yea. Its an even draw for Edge at best. Its not though, is it? Bret wins the big ones. Edge loses them.

Yeah, Bret wins the big matches. Unless, of course, they are for his title. Bret's lost the world title seven times, Edge has lost it nine times. But that also means each guy won it that many times, as well.

Sigh, I guess I'll go the whole Wikipedia route. For a twist, I'll only include actual in-ring accomplishments, and omit things like PWI awards and Slammy's, since I find those kind of ridiculous.

Bret Hart

* Stampede Wrestling
o NWA International Tag Team Championship (Calgary version) (5 times) – with Keith Hart (4) and Leo Burke (1)
o Stampede British Commonwealth Mid-Heavyweight Championship (3 times)
o Stampede North American Heavyweight Championship (6 times)
o Stampede Wrestling Hall of Fame

* World Championship Wrestling
o WCW United States Heavyweight Championship (4 times)
o WCW World Heavyweight Championship (2 times)
o WCW World Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Goldberg

* World Wrestling Council
o WWC Caribbean Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Smith Hart

* World Wrestling Federation / World Wrestling Entertainment
o WWF Championship (5 times)
o WWF Intercontinental Championship (2 times)
o WWF Tag Team Championship (2 times) – with Jim Neidhart
o King of the Ring (1991, 1993)
o Royal Rumble (1994)
o Second Triple Crown Champion
o WWE Hall of Fame (Class of 2006)

Very impressive.

Now Edge

Championships and accomplishments
* Insane Championship Wrestling
o ICW/MWCW Mid-West Unified Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Joe E. Legend
o ICW Streetfight Tag Team Championship (2 times) – with Christian Cage (2)

* New Tokyo Pro Wrestling
o NTPW Pro Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Christian Cage[136]

* Outlaw Championship Wrestling
o OCW Tag Team Championship (1 time)[citation needed] – with Psycho Joe Sampson

* Southern States Wrestling
o SSW Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Christian Cage

* World Wrestling Federation / World Wrestling Entertainment
o WCW United States Championship (1 time)
o World Heavyweight Championship (5 times)
o WWF/E World Tag Team Championship (11 times) – with Christian (7), Chris Benoit (2), Randy Orton (1), and Hulk Hogan (1)
o WWF/E Intercontinental Championship (5 times)
o WWE Championship (4 times)
o WWE Tag Team Championship (1 time)– with Rey Mysterio
o King of the Ring (2001)
o Mr. Money in the Bank (2005, 2007)
o Fourteenth Triple Crown Champion

Hmmm...

Does the match cater to either man?

yes it does, that being Bret Hart.

Mayhem 99
KOR 91
KOR 93

Bret Hart wins tournaments. Matter of fact, I havent seen Bret involved in aany tournament he DIDNT win. He won two matches at WM 10, the first of which, being a grueling battle with his borther Owen. And of course, the Iron Man match. The one were HBK was on the verge of tapping like a bitch had the clock not saved him. We all know Bret had that thing locked up, after 60 minutes. Edge has a KOR to his name, yes, but doesnt have NEAR the resume of Bret Hart when it comes to working, and winning, multiple, or long matches in a night. Bret Hart.

Edge does indeed have a KotR win, beating Kurt Angle in the final match, no less. He also is the only person, to my knowledge, to have competed in two Elimination Chamber matches in one night, and he left the second one with a championship.

Vote Bret Hart peoples. I am.

Good. You think Bret Hart is better, so you should vote for him. I, however, will be voting Edge.

 

[Paradox]

Well well well...we've come to this point. I find myself in the odd position of voting for someone that I don't even think should have made it this far. I fully believe that Edge should have lost easily to Brock Lesnar, and I voted that way. I fully believed that Edge would lose a close match against Steve Austin, and I voted that way. And I had no doubt that Edge should have lost (again) to the Undertaker, and I again voted that way.

As did I...

Now, however, Edge is against Bret Hart. And for the first time in four rounds, I think Edge is the better man in the match, and will vote that way.

Okay, why?

But, in this round, I am going to find myself agreeing with you, I think. Edge, whether he should have made it this far or not, absolutely should win this round. Bret Hart was a very, very good wrestler, and is remembered as one of the greatest of all time because...well, mainly because he told you he was. So much of Bret Hart's career is considered great because he was hyped, both by himself and by announcers, as "The best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be." I will not say that Bret is over-rated, but I do believe that a lot of the love he gets now is based more on his hype than his actual ability.

Hmm.... You said that you weren't saying he was over-rated, but you did say that he was over Hyped? If that's the way you feel let's look at some of his matches. His Iron Man match against Michaels. Great match showing really how good of a technical wrestler that he was. As well look at his match against Austin. A great brawl between the two in which he had to wear down Austin to try get him in the Sharpshooter. (making austin who is) As well his match against his brother was very good. Those are just the tip of the ice burg with Hart.

Bret was the best technical wrestler in a promotion that didn't really feature a lot of true technical wrestlers,

So what does that say about wrestlers today? None of them are near the technical level that was around in Bret's day.

I truly believe that if you were to take the Bret Hart of the mid to late 90's (arguably his prime) and drop him in today's WWE, without the history that he has with the whole Montreal Screwjob deal, he would be at best an upper mid-card talent, every now and then sniffing around in main event territory.

SAY WHAT? Bret in his prime right now would be amazing. He would be a main eventer easily. Who would be better than him now? (other than edge) Look at who was their when Bret came in and he still was a main eventer. He had Hulk Hogan. There isn't much bigger than him. And it was Bret that Headlined WrestleMania 9 not Hogan. Yes you can come back and say Hogan was on his way out. Still You put Hart at his best against people today. Hart would shine.

That's not to say he didn't deserve all of the accolades and success he received at the time, because for that period of time he was one of, if not the best around. I just don't believe he is one of the best ever.

If he's not then who is?

Edge, however, is one of the best heels of the last decade, perhaps of the last two decades.

I think that you are going to far there. Don't get me wrong I like Edge, and he's a great heel, and might be one of the best in the last five years. But to say that he's one of the best in the past decade, or two decades is nuts. Look at who you have this decade. Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock, Triple H, Michaels, (his brief time in 05) Chris Jericho, Kurt Angle, Mr. McMahon Eric Bishoff. Edge isn't near those guys. Edge really started to shine as a heel in mid 05. If you want to go back another decade let's look at that. SCAS, The Rock, Hogan, Michaels, Bret Hart, Undertaker, Mr. McMahon, Triple H, Ric Flair. And I'm sure I'm missing names.

If you want to take Bret and put him in he here and now. Take Edge back then. He wouldn't have competed in the time that DX was around when Stone Cold and the Rock were on their rises. Why do I know this, because he was there and you didn't see him.

Yes, he is opportunistic, and yes, he does cheat to win. But he is also a very good wrestler.

I will agree that Edge is a great wrestler, and works the heel gimmick well. He's not as good in the ring as Bret Hart.

And he brings a tenacity and a desire to win that I have only seen Bret Hart face in on other opponent. A guy that you may recognize:

And we've seen how that ended before:

Whoa, did you just compare Edge to HBK. HBK when he was in the beginning of his prime? Dude, like I said Edge is good, but he ain't in Shawn's league now. Shawn is one of the greatest in ring performers of all time. I really doubt that Edge is near that now. Bret may not have been as good as Michaels (just my opinion.) But, he was close. The guy had a solid match every time he went to the ring.

Yes, Bret has won KotR twice, and this is a KotR style tourney at this point, but seriously...let's look at his first KotR. He defeated Razor Ramon, then Mr. Perfect, then Bam Bam Bigelow. Now let's look at who he has faced here...The Rock (if anyone wants to debate the Rock being better than Razor Ramon, I'm waiting), Chris Jericho, and now Edge. Ramon and Perfect were tough competitors, to be sure, but I don't think either are on the level of Rock and Jericho. And Bam Bam is certainly no Edge. And in the other one he defeated Pete Doherty(?) Skinner, and Irwin R. Shyster. Uhm, ok.

Okay, but who did Edge just go through? Austin and Taker. Bret's stamina has been tested before, he's one two KotR tournaments before. Then he won a tournament in wcw for the belt, beating the likes of goldberg. As well he competed in a Iron Man match. I think that he can handle it. Edge has won KotR (if i'm not mistaken) That's it though. You can pick out who Bret just went through, but Edge went through two of the toughest names ever in stepped foot in the ring with Austin and Taker. And he's going to turn around and beat Hart who has great stamina?

Bret was a great technical wrestler for the time and the promotion he was in, but in the end I think he is remembered as being far greater than he really is. Edge shows us week in and week out how great he currently is, and sad to say, that is better than Bret Hart.

Bret is a great wrestler who one more title's in two companies then many have won in their entire careers. He wasn't over hyped. The man backed up what he said. Bret showed us week after week why he was the best there was, the best there is and the best there ever will be. Edge isn't there, maybe one day, but not today.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

I havent even close to the paitence to do the back button/quote thing. so yea, this is for pyrusane.

Yes. the promos were he turned on america, got back together with his family, shit all over america when tthe WWE visited Canada. Yea. Hulk Hogan himself reffered to Bret as "the best stick man in the buisness" in 97. I guess we can all take your evaluation over Hulk Hogans.

Heel heat? um yes. The were near riots taking place while Bret was on his heel run. Fucks sake, Edge gets a fucking 50/50 reaction during his entrances dude

Bret had white hot drinks-being thrown-at-the-ring heat.


LOL the EC matches? you mean the two EC matches were he spent about 20 minutes total for the entire night actually wrestling? get real man. You point to Edge's one KOR win. I point to Bret's three. Just saying.

Were are Edges 60 minute matches? his 30 minute clinics? his back to back matches at SummerSlam? were are they? oh, they dont exist you say? So, wait, Edge, in his prime, doesnt have...really...ANY classic matches that didnt involve gimmicks?


Honestly man. Your far better off going into kayfabe fantasy land with the others than arguing this kind of stuff with me. Edge isnt fit to lace Bret Hart's boots when it comes to professional wrestling. I bet you even Edge himself would tell you that.

 

[Slyfox696]

If you vote for Edge, I will ban you from the forums.

Not really, but any vote for Edge would be a vote for idiocy. On what level could you possibly vote Edge? He's an inferior worker, an inferior talk, an inferior character, and inferior in-ring wrestler. There is NOTHING that Edge has over Bret Hart.

Edge's best heel days don't even come CLOSE to touching what Bret Hart was doing in 1997. Bret Hart in 1997 is probably the last great heel wrestling has seen. And the best part about his heel work is that it was the type of heel work that would still draw big time...and put over the next great thing in Steve Austin.

Want to talk in-ring quality? Not if you're an Edge backer you don't. If Edge isn't in a gimmick match, it's not very good. Bret Hart, on the other hand, could put on great matches in any kind of match, singles, tag, or gimmick. His matches were believable and realistic, and are the type of matches that can be re-watched over and over again to this day.

Bret Hart is clearly the better worker, whether you talk kayfabe or real life. No way should Edge get any votes.

 

[ErictheEnt]

Bret is far better in just about every way than Edge. Then again, so was the Undertaker and look what happened? I'm not confident in this group of wrestling fans that they're going to get this one right.

 

[pyrusane]

Never believed in the use of sarcasm myself.

I try to avoid it, but it happens.

Mr. Perfect, Chris Benoit, Owen Hart, Stone Cold, Shawn Michaels, The Bulldogs, Demolition, need I continue?

Men from all of his eras. Tag team, Mid Card, Main Event. ANd he put up incredible matches.

Let's look at a few of those names. Mr. Perfect was a very good worker, but a consistent mid-carder. He put on very good matches with Bret, and some of their best matches were against each other. So this tells me Bret put on great matches with a lifetime mid-carder.

Chris Benoit. This one is cheating a little bit, as they only worked together for a short time in WCW, towards the end of Bret's career. During the majority of Bret's run Benoit was working in WCW and ECW. The reason this is important is because I was talking about comparing him to the people around him. Benoit wasn't really around him, was he?

Owen Hart. Owen gave Bret some of his toughest matches, and holds several impressive wins over the older Hart. I assume the point of this list was to show how much better Bret was than everyone around him, or else to show that the level of his competition was higher than I originally stated. And yet he had trouble beating Owen on a regular basis.

Stone Cold. The beginning of a totally different era, and not exactly a technician, now was he?

Shawn Michaels. Hmm, the guy that took the title from him twice. And to be fair, I'll give you the Screwjob back, but who won that Ironman match again?

The British Bulldogs. Davey Boy Smith was a power wrestler, supposedly, and in my opinion highly over-rated. I've seen a lot of the old Stampede Wrestling matches that Bret had with Dynamite Kid, and I have to say, I think Kid was better than Bret. Of course, that would mean that Bret wasn't even the best in his own father's promotion, so we'll move on...

Demolition. OK, we're going back to the 80's for this one. Demolition and the Hart Foundation had some classic matches, and were the heart of tag team wrestling in the 80's, along with the Bulldogs and the Rockers. I remember Bret being the whipping boy in most of their matches, which does prove that he sells well, but doesn't really show him being great, in my opinion.

Here is something interesting. I wanted all four Canadians to go over. Not necessarily because they were Canadian, but because they wrestle my style of wrestling. I would love to see all these men face each other. But the best match-up would be Jericho versus Hart, because Jericho is far superior to Edge, and Bret already went over Jericho.

I'll leave the whole Canadian bit out, and agree that this was probably the best match-up of the Final Four. Too bad the wrong man won it.

Maybe Bret Hart is just that good.



Just analogies. I won't discuss the ramifications of basketball today.



I don't think you fully understood this one.



I don't see the difference.

Hey man, you brought out the strange analogies. I was just trying to work with them. Honestly, they were really out of place and didn't have a whole lot of bearing on this discussion, so I'll let them drop if you will.

Do you have any evidence. What do you base it on? Bret Hart is fan friendly, hes a good guy. John Cena almost, and that is what the WWE wants.

Just my own personal opinion. It's hard to say what an icon from the 90's would do today, when we don't have a chance to see it first-hand. But I do distinctly remember being personally incredibly bored by Bret towards the end of his WWF run, and can only imagine that it would be even worse with the faster paced, more soap-opera like style that the WWE has these days. There were storylines during Bret's run, but the shows were still focused more on the in-ring action. I just don't see Bret being able to effectively make the transition to today's style of show. I may be wrong, but that's how I see it.

Edge is only a heel in Canada, because he dissed Canada. Didn't even work actually, because he still popped the next time he went there. As a Canadian, I know how Canadian crowds work. We are all patriotic towards our wrestlers, and we will still pop. Bret Hart knew this and used it. He made it bigger than one man versus America, he made it one nation against another. That is work.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not diminishing Bret's legacy in Canada. I realize the man is pretty much a national hero. I was just giving Edge props, not for being able to draw heat, but for making the Canadian fans pop for Shawn Michaels.

Ill try to hit you up on Monday at work if I get time. Let us try and stick to the wrestling this time then.

I look forward to it. Its so much more enjoyable to debate a good poster rather than the crappy ones I normally get into it with. You can actually form rational, reasonable thoughts, and you spel guud tu.

 

[pyrusane]

I figured I would get raked over the coals on this one, and I wasn't wrong. It's taking too long to reply to individual posts. I had four new posts go up telling me basically how cracked out I am while I was writing my last one. I'm not going to try to argue with anyone, I'm not going to try to change anyone's mind, I'm just throwing out myown personal opinion. You can disagree with it all you want, and I will never say you're wrong just because your opinion is different from mine. You believe that Bret Hart was the greatest of all time? Fine, that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I disagree, and that is my opinion, which I am also entitled to have. But just because you think I'm wrong doesn't mean I am. I don't believe that either man in this match is the greatest of all time, really, and I don't think either of them deserve to be here, but they are, so that's what I'm working with. I actually think Bret makes a better case for making it this far than Edge, because Bret at least had a better chance of winning the matches he went through to get here than Edge did (again, my opinion). But against each other, I think Edge wins. That doesn't even necessarily mean I think Edge is a better wrestler than Bret, it means I think he would have a better chance of winning a one-on-one match with Bret. There is a difference. Bret was a better technical wrestler than many of the men that he faced, but he didn't always win those matches. Edge has been a far worse technical wrestler than many of the men he's faced, but he didn't always lose those matches. Technical wrestling is just one aspect of wrestling, really.

I do want to address one quote from Norcal, though.

Hulk Hogan himself reffered to Bret as "the best stick man in the buisness" in 97. I guess we can all take your evaluation over Hulk Hogans.

You can take it, you can leave, you can buy it an ice cream sundae for all I care. I have stated numerous times, in every single one of my posts, that I was just stating my own personal opinion. I watched those promos when they were happening, I was a huge wrestling fan during that time frame, watched every show I could, and Bret bored me to tears. You liked his promo's, then good for you. I'm glad for you. Hogan thinks he great on the stick? Well, there you go. Because Hogan says it I should just change my opinion. I've tried really hard not to attack anyone else just because I didn't agree with them. Minor digs, maybe, but I've tried to be very diplomatic. I'm not trying to change your mind, or anyone else. I'm just stating my opinion and making my case. I was under the impression that that was what we were supposed to do during this tourney. My bad.

 

[Skillz]

Bret Hart should win this match. Hart is simply better than Edge as a professional wrestler. After all, this tournament is to decide who the best professional wrestler ever is, is it not? Hart may or may not be the best professional wrestler ever, but there is no doubt that he's better than Edge. Which means, Hart MUST win.

So Edge is a 9-time world champion and Hart is a 7-time world champion. Does that mean Edge is better? No fucking way. Edge has an average reign of 48 days, and Hart has an average reign of 101 days. 101 > 48. Overall, Edge has been a world champion for 431 days, not bad. But Hart has been a world champion for 710 days. 710 > 431. Those are just simple facts, they cannot be denied. When Hart was WWE Champion, he always found a way to give the belt credibility and prestige, unlike Edge who can barely hold on to it for a month at a time. Hart's matches as WWE champion were way, way better than Edge's.

As far as their other accomplishments go, Edge has won like a million tag team and midcard titles. But the fact is, all of those reigns were shit, short, and not memorable. Hart's reigns as tag team and IC champion were infinitely better than Edge's.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that Bret Hart is the only wrestler in WWE history who can make a genuine claim to be arguably one of the top 5 best tag team champions ever, one of the top 5 best IC champions ever, AND one of the top 5 best WWE champions ever. That is an incredible achievement.

As far as in-ring ability goes, Hart wipes the floor with Edge. No, I'm not talking about technical wrestling, even though Hart is the best technical wrestler of all time. I'm talking about the ability to tell amazing stories in the ring, the ability to work a crowd and get them to believe in your character, the ability to use psychology and play both face and heel, the ability to sell, the ability to make matches look realistic, etc, etc. Looking at all of those things that makes a great in-ring worker, while Edge may be good at some of those things, Bret Hart is simply better, and... it's not even close!

Hart's matches are so much better than Edge's that it's ridiculous to even try to compare. Edge is an overrated wrestler. He excels in gimmick matches, but in standard one-on-one matches he is completely average. I'm still waiting to see a match that I would consider to be 4 1/2 stars or more with Edge in it.

Bret Hart is... a better worker, a better face, a better heel, a better storyteller, more charismatic, more versatile, a better talker, a bigger draw, more popular. He also had... better matches, better feuds, better title reigns and has made a bigger impact than Edge. Bret Hart is better than Edge at EVERYTHING. There is not one single reason to vote for Edge, and that's without even looking at kayfabe, where Hart has the advantage there too.

 

[ErictheEnt]

Yes, Bret SHOULD beat Edge.

Then again, the Undertaker SHOULD be in this match about to drop Bret on his head but it's not happening. So ... what do you expect? Undertaker has beaten both of them (Bret and Edge) almost every time he's wrestled them.

 

[LigerBomb]

I'll await Will and the like to get into the real arguments for Edge because so far no one has adequately put forth capable reasons as to why Bret Hart could lose, or why Edge should win. At best, I've read that personally someone found him boring, which I suppose is a good enough reason for him to vote for Edge (although actually it sounds more like NOT voting for Bret), but not once has anyone really shown valid cause as to why anyone else should vote for Edge (or not vote for Bret).

Simply put, Bret Hart is categorically the better man, and the better man should win, and would win, more often than not (hence reinforcing the fact that he is better). As it stands I'm voting Bret Hart and it would take a miracle for someone to convince me to do otherwise.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

True King of the Ring:​

Within each Superstar’s career, they’ve both won and lost major Tournaments. Bret Hart has won the King of the Ring, twice, but only once when it was made popular. He’s also won the World Heavyweight Championship, in 1999 at W.C.W Mayhem. By that record, its 2 major tournament victories, with 3 overall.

Now this is where it gets tricky, because some would actually lead you to believe this makes Bret Hart a master of Tournaments. But does it? No. Why? Let’s take a closer look at two-three major details, the first would be his opponents, and keys to victory. The last would be the situation regarding why he won.

In 1991:​

Hart defeated the following individuals to win the 91 version of the KOTR.. Pete Dougherty, (who?) Skinner, and in the finals defeated I.R.S to win the tournament. Now, you may be curious why there is only three names involved. Well, that’s because Hart received a bye in the Semi-Finals, whereas I.R.S had to defeat 3 individuals, (The Berzerker, Jim Duggan & Jerry Saggs) just to advance to the finals. So could someone tell me how the face received the bye - instead of the heel, in this situation?

In 1993:​

Hart defeated the following individuals to win the 93 version of the KOTR.. Razor Ramon, Mr. Perfect, and in the finals defeated Bam Bam Bigelow to win the tournament. Now, once again I’m sure some could be curious to question why there were only three names involved. Well, once again, that’s because Bret Hart is and was the Golden Boy during this time in the Company, and he received a bye into the tournament - unlike everyone else who had to qualify just to get in, all because Hart lost his Championship and never received a rematch for the title - thanks in part, mainly, to Hulk Hogan’s greediness.

Now, on this note in Hart’s defense, this was his greatest Tournament victory ever, including his (yet to be mentioned) Mayhem Championship tournament victory. Why? Because this was the tournament Hart actually faced a great set of competition. He faced the guy who almost defeated him at that year’s Royal Rumble - in Ramon. Won, after a grueling match that went almost the time-limit of the match. In the Semi-Finals, while Bigelow received a bye, Hart had another tough challenge against Mr. Perfect, an individual whom he had an incredible match with at Summerslam 91. And finally, of course Hart defeated Bigelow by a roll-up, when he was very winded and extremely out of it, with only that last ditch effort left.. Hart came out the victor. So my hat’s off to him, for that accomplishment.

In 1999:​

Hart defeated the following individuals to win the 1999 W.C.W Mayhem Championship Tournament.. Goldberg, Perry Saturn, Billy Kidman, Sting, and in the finals defeated Chris Benoit. This was the only tournament where Bret Hart actually competed against someone throughout every single round. So, why shouldn’t this tournament be his best? Simple.. It was fixed heavily in Hart’s favor, by way of a storyline that even later is announced as to why.

To begin with, Hart only defeated Goldberg in the opening round of the Tournament, because of major interference from Hall, Nash & Sid Vicious. He then advances on to face a series of who’s who to guys that shouldn’t even belong in the same ring as Hart, then on the Pay per view night, defeats Sting then Chris Benoit to win the Championship. While I won’t argue his matches with Sting & Benoit to be some of the best he’s ever had.. Once again, I’d be heavily remiss if I didn’t explain that a storyline was broken within a month’s time of this, by Vince Russo (on camera) in which he explains Hart was given the title, and hand picked to be the Champion. In exchange for forgiveness to the Montreal Screw-Job.

While you can’t fix Wrestling matches, (well, you can, but I’m trying to play nice in not mentioning the outside stuff) the fact remains that in an actual ON-SCREEN storyline, it was more or less said that Hart was given the title.. Because of no better reason, than to say “We’re Sorry”.

So, that’s three Tournaments, two of which I’ll give Hart in saying they were major. But wait, to everyone who believes Hart is “undefeated” in Tournaments.. I have a shocking surprise for you all. HE’S NOT! (oh noes, I know) In fact, he’s got a barely above .500 record at 4-3. His fourth, missing tournament victory was (not surprising) once again because he received a bye in part of the Middle East tournament. As for the 3 he’s lost, 2 were the Kuwaiti Cup 1996-1997, during the peak of his so-called “greatest Wrestler ever to the World” push, and the final was the European Championship tournament to crown a first-ever Champion.

But enough of Hart, and his Tournament victories.. Let’s take a look at Edge, and his victories.

Edge is 2-1 in Tournaments. He’s split the KOTR tournament, and won a #1 Contender’s Championship tournament. (which is more or less what a KOTR tourney is all about) So just like with Hart, let’s now look at Edge’s path to victory.

In 2001:​

Edge defeated the following individuals to become the 01 version of the KOTR.. Test, Perry Saturn, Rhino, and in the finals defeated Kurt Angle to win the Tournament. Now I’m going to give Bret Hart some credit in this situation. In 1993, to me his greatest Tournament victory, he defeated 2 individuals who were very good in their own right, and arguably one of the better big men in the sport throughout. On the flip side, Edge defeated a glorified Tag team specialist in Test, a career mid-carder in Saturn, and a guy who’s best moments in history came when he could use tables and other weapons in Rhino.

What’s that you say? Will, what the fuck are you doing, you’re killing Edge by saying this! Oh, but I’m actually not. You see, Edge defeating any of those guys.. that’s truly a piece of cake, right? Sure. And that’s why he did it. However, Bret Hart NEVER faced anyone half as good as Kurt Angle in any Tournament he’s ever competed in. Much less, when Hart would’ve been considered a mid-carder facing a former World Heavyweight Champion.

So 2001, while the under-section of the Tournament may not have been strong, the Finals that vaulted Edge to success was more than enough to make Edge look like a possible Hall of Fame inductee. Edge beating Angle, not just was a showing of things to come, but it was what truly made Edge advance to that so-called “next level”.

When Hart defeated Ramon, Ramon was a one-hit wonder who gained a Heavyweight shot in early 93, then never seen another even remote sniff at Heavyweight opportunity until 98, in W.C.W. When Hart defeated Perfect, while it was a great match, it was against a guy who had maybe 2 more good months left in him, before he ultimately left the Company. And finally, when Hart beat Bigelow, it was during one of Bigelow’s lowest times in Wrestling history. What exactly was Bigelow in 1993? What’d he do? Why would he have been considered even remotely worth being in the Finals? He shouldn’t have been, simple as that.

So as you can see based on the Head to Head match-up from Hart winning in 1993, comparable to Edge winning in 2001.. Edge’s victory was a cornerstone in proving why Edge deserves to win, not just now, but in general. Whereas Hart’s victory wasn’t anything more than one more meaningless victory for no other reason than no one else was free at the time to be considerably worth giving the spot to. (Seriously, in 1993 - who else could’ve won instead of Hart?)

In 2002:​

Basically, long story short you’re looking at the opposite of 1999 for Bret Hart. Edge didn’t even get out of the blocks and lost to Chris Jericho, but not because he should have.. Instead because he had no alternative than to lose. Edge was injured during this time frame, and lost not because Jericho was ever the better option, but because Edge knew he couldn’t have went any further without doing more damage to himself. Let’s think about this a bit more, and with a deeper look.

If Edge would’ve defeated Chris Jericho, his path in the KOTR would’ve lead him to either Rob Van Dam, or Brock Lesnar. Two individuals in which Edge has had at least one quality match-up with, each. Would he have lost to Lesnar? No doubt. But because Lesnar was being pushed, once again not because Edge wouldn’t deserve it. In fact, I’d argue heavily that if Edge were in place of Jericho, Van Dam would’ve never made it beyond the Semi Finals. And Edge would’ve highlighted against Lesnar. But that’s neither here nor there. Didn’t happen, all because Edge was injured and couldn’t compete in the Tournament beyond dropping out in the Opening rounds.

In 2005:​

Edge defeated the following individuals to become the only man to ever win a Gold Rush Tournament.. Chris Jericho, Shawn Michaels, and in the finals defeated Kane, to win the Gold Rush Tournament. Now, can anyone seriously sit here and debate how that isn’t arguably the greatest line-up of Superstars to have defeated in a Tournament?

Kane is the weakest individual of the three, and he himself is a former Heavyweight Champion. That’s more than Ramon, Perfect and Bigelow can all say. Jericho has made his name in this sport and will forever be remembered, and if anyone thinks Shawn Michaels is worse than anyone Hart’s faced throughout his multiple Tournament victories.. Well, you’re blatantly trying to pull crap out of your ass in a very pathetic attempt to make any of Hart’s tournament victories look even remotely worth a damn.

As you can see, by the information above.. Edge may not hold “as many” Tournament victories under his belt. But he hasn’t lost nearly as many, either. And he’s defeated twice the amount of tremendously talented Superstars that Hart ever did, in winning Two tournaments. Advantage in Tournaments? Edge.

Excellence of Execution:​

In the information that’s been given by NorCal & Klunder, I’ve come across what I’m sure will become an ever growing tireless argument that Bret Hart is suppose to be better, because he’s one of the greatest technical Superstars to ever Wrestle in the history of the Sport. Right? Sure, whatever.

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not knocking Hart’s technical ability. He is without a shadow of a doubt better than Edge as far as technical wrestling goes. Yes, you read that right. But let’s not kid ourselves here. Just because you’re better at being a technical wrestler doesn’t mean shit in the world of scripted Professional Wrestling, now does it?

I’m sure the duo of NorCal and Klunder would argue over how Hart destroys Edge with an amazing set of skills that Edge just can’t match. Right? Sure, whatever. Wrong. In fact, dead wrong. I noticed somewhere that Klunder or NorCal one mentioned Hart as being a “Wrestling Machine”.. well, who else has been deemed a Wrestling machine? That’s right, Kurt Angle.. You know, the actual “Wrestler” in Professional Wrestling. The guy with amateur skills, who’s made twice the impact Hart ever will, in the business known as Professional Wrestling.

And which one of these two individuals has had Kurt Angle’s number in multiple, straight-up One-on-One matches? Edge, perhaps. Yeah, Edge.

This is where I’m pausing to give a split moment for Klunder or NorCal to say.. “But Will, Edge is only great in gimmick matches. He can’t actually wrestle. Fake sex rulez, popularity FTW” and a bunch of other nonsense that truly has no place in this tournament.. But both have decided to bring in, regardless. (Hypocrisy at its finest)

Regardless of the stupid side of their rants, the truth is Hart doesn’t beat Edge just because he’s the better technical Wrestler. When Edge needs to, and wants to, he can wrestle toe-to-toe with some of the technical greats. Angle and Benoit, just to name two. And in the history of things, Edge has a better record against technical Superstars than he does over anyone else. Look it up, you’ll find it to be true.

Rated R vs. Rated PG:​

While the catchy title is sure to go on blind eyes, the subject of this portion of my post is to explain how despite most people believing Hart will sweep this round, you shouldn’t jump too quickly on that notion. Bret Hart is more than likely going to be considered the Face of this contest. (clearly, as half the forum hates Me, and Edge right now ) So when you base this match, surely you’d have to look at Hart’s face moments.. At which point, you’ll find he lost at an incredible rate to Superstars no where near his league.. All because they took underhanded tactics and cheated. Hello, what the fuck do you think Edge would do in order to win?

Now I’m sure people are tired of the Ultimate Opportunist stick, and hey the truth hurts what can I say. Face facts people, whether you want to or not, Hart has lost to the likes of Jerry Lawler, Doink the Clown, Owen Hart, Shawn Michaels and even the Mountie. While that’s an up and down list of names, the fact remains every single individual on that list has defeated Bret Hart, through advantage in cheating and underhanded tactics. And Edge, whether you ever like to admit it or not, is the Master of Underhanded tactics. Hart is a Kid’s movie wrapped in a Wrestler’s body. The guy doesn’t see cheating coming from a mile away, and can’t stop it when it happens.

Edge doesn’t have to be the best at anything, to be the smarter at taking short cuts. And that’s me discounting Edge, because in truthfulness he really is just as good as Bret Hart, in several things. But he’s leaps and bounds above Bret Hart, in cheating and winning by any means available to him.

Sharpshooter vs. Spear:​

TM posted a video of Goldberg spearing Bret Hart on an episode of Monday Nitro, and wants you to apparently see the flaw in that. Everyone, let’s begin an incredibly slow 3-count and find out how many times Goldberg could’ve won the match, even with Bret’s chest plate, because Hart failed to realize he was still going to get creamed by a Spear.

TM, all in all Hart recovers sooner, and even rolls Goldberg over to count to three himself. Thankfully, an actual official will be present in this contest, and barring Hart wearing a Canadian sport’s teams jersey, I don’t see any way how Edge is going to spear a metal chest plate. Even, in which case he were.. The official present in the match, would make a 3-count in Edge’s favor, seeing as to how he’d fall directly ON TOP OF Hart.

Hart has to be honestly one of the dumbest individuals I’ve ever seen, in trying to counter the Spear. He doesn’t move out of the way, he doesn’t even try kicking the opponent. He just takes it, in hopes of apparently kicking out. Edge will take that chance 10 outta 10 times, every time.

Now, on the reverse side of things, Hart’s Sharpshooter is the best there is in the business. Other’s have tried to duplicate it, including Edge, but Hart wins more than anyone else with the Sharpshooter. The only issue with this is, Hart can only apply this move when his opponent is either jumping feet first at him, or is already laid out on the ground. Edge doesn’t have a move in his set that has him jumping feet first at Hart, so that makes Hart’s finisher one dimensional in the fact he must apply it from the feet and ground, only.

Can this be countered? HELL YES it can be. And Edge ironically enough have won matches with his modified version of the Sharpshooter, in which he could counter the original version into, from. Need a video to help show everyone what move I’m referring to? No problem.. I hope the music is a nice touch, as well..

[youtube]EAyUeSCmBVI[/youtube]​

The .35 second mark is the move I’m referring too, but feel free to watch the whole tribute video of Edge.

In the end, I’d arguably say neither man has an advantage or disadvantage with their finishing move. One can’t be counted into the other, unless Hart learns from Lance Storm, and rolls through with Edge’s spear only to lock in a Sharpshooter - which is completely unrealistic, considering Hart’s never done that - and would much rather TAKE the spear. lol

Resiliency vs. Determination:​

I don’t think anyone can question either man’s resiliency, but in this situation you then have to look at which individual wants it more. Bret Hart has taken this business more serious than the plague, but Edge is arguably more passionate about every match he has than anyone I’ve ever seen. I don’t think even NorCal can argue how pumped Edge was during his entrance for a Mania - MITB match, and that shows how much the man wants each victory, each win, more than arguably anyone else.

Now, I said I wouldn’t question either man’s resiliency, but I am going to question the time’s in which each individual Wrestled, to see who’s possibly more resilient. First, Hart..

Hart wrestled during a time when finishing moves were the finish of almost every single match, and you had next to NO reversals that kept the match on-going. During Hart’s timeline, it was also a point in time when a single chair shot laid you out for a 3-count. Obviously, things have changed in a great deal.

It could be argued that perhaps the finishers aren’t as crisp, or maybe the chair shots aren’t as hard, but regardless Edge has out-lasted more finishers in single matches, than Hart has. And Edge’s over-come chair shots in matches, where as Hart has been laid out and had to be revived. So on this note, I’d say neither man is going to just lay down, but Hart might not have it in the gas tank, as much as Edge would, to out-last the other.

Final Decision/Personal Note:​

While there were a couple other topics I wanted to hit on, its getting pretty late and the last time I wrote out a post like this most of you didn’t even bother to care - and just used the ever growing excuse of “But Edge doesn’t belong, and that’s good enough for me.” All in all, read this if you want - debate me if you can. Vote how you wish in the end, for whatever reason you truly see fit.

I want to give a special Thank You, to each and every individual who’s voted Edge and truly backed him through this Tournament. Maybe you backed him the whole way, maybe you backed him through one or two of his tougher match-ups, regardless. Thank you. People give me semi credit for getting Edge this far, but I only hold 1 vote. If what I say has pushed Edge to the finals, then it means a lot to me that endless numbers of people respect my opinion and views so much - to vote Edge, even if they didn’t originally think they would. So win or lose, I’m proud to have helped get Edge as far as I have. Hopefully he wins, but if he doesn’t.. Hart is a good enough alternative. May the better man win, and as always with me..

VOTE EDGE!​

 

[Uncle Sam]

Will, is it not like five in the morning where you are?

In 2001:​

Edge defeated the following individuals to become the 01 version of the KOTR.. Test, Perry Saturn, Rhino, and in the finals defeated Kurt Angle to win the Tournament. Now I’m going to give Bret Hart some credit in this situation. In 1993, to me his greatest Tournament victory, he defeated 2 individuals who were very good in their own right, and arguably one of the better big men in the sport throughout. On the flip side, Edge defeated a glorified Tag team specialist in Test, a career mid-carder in Saturn, and a guy who’s best moments in history came when he could use tables and other weapons in Rhino.

What you fail to point out is that Edge only narrowly defeated Rhino and then had lost to Kurt Angle when - luckily for him - Shane McMahon interfered. Kurt would be so fresh from his Edge fight that he'd have enough energy to almost paralyse Shane O'Mac on several occasions later that night. All of Edge's victories before that had been on separate nights against, like you said, nobodies.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Will, is it not like five in the morning where you are?

Yeah, point? I wanted to get this done.

What you fail to point out is that Edge only narrowly defeated Rhino

Still won, didn't he. Hart was in the same type of shape in several of his KOTR matches, looking drained and wasted. He only beat Bigelow, because Bigelow was being cocky and played around too much.

and then had lost to Kurt Angle

He did? I'm sorry, when I looked up the results of the KOTR from 2001, I didn't see anywhere in them where it said "Angle d. Edge". I must've missed this.. mind showing me proof of where Edge had lost to Angle? Because clearly its not real, now is it, Samuel.

when - luckily for him - Shane McMahon interfered.

So, you really need me to reexplain the whole "Ultimate Opportunity" aspect for you again? Did Edge ask Shane to interfere? No. Did Edge take advantage of the issue? Yes.

Kurt would be so fresh from his Edge fight that he'd have enough energy to almost paralyse Shane O'Mac on several occasions later that night.

Irrelevant to this match, unless you're trying to point out that Edge was the ONLY individual to which defeated Angle on that night. Then, thank you, thank proves a lot as well.

All of Edge's victories before that had been on separate nights against, like you said, nobodies.

And Hart's weren't? He defeated one of the very same guys, in Perry Saturn. And I'll take Test over Skinner, any day of the week as being worth a damn.

By the way, I get that you piece on my posts like a chocolate cake, one delicious bite at a time.. but way to entirely overlook every other great opinion I just laid down, Samuel.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Voting here on who I think is the better professional wrestler, and who I think deserves to win this tournament. With that criteria I can't honestly vote against Hart here. Even as a huge HBK fan I can't deny that Hart has had some of the best matches in the business, and has one of the best technical styles the WWE has seen.

Edge is a good wrestler, however, and I'm sure there are a lot of people who have turned against him based solely on the fact you don't believe he should be here. Well, there are a lot of things that shouldn't have happened in the tournament, and everyone's opinions will differ on that, don't let your hatred for one of them cloud judgement on someone who is a great wrestler in today's industry.