Wrestlezone Tournament Finals: Bret Hart vs. Edge

[TheOneBigWill]

I just want to say that I think this particular comment is way out of line. I have read a great number of the posts in this forum that are wrestling related and I can honestly say it is obvious who is intelligent in regards to wrestling and who is NOT. The majority of the people posting in this thread know what they are talking about, they just come at certain topics from different angles and perspectives.

So, obviously every other ridiculous comment in which someone like Sly, said this;

If you vote for Edge, I will ban you from the forums.

or this..

Then it was a terrible post because I don't remember it. Going back to read it now...


...yup, terrible post.

or even this..

A bunch of fucking cowards.

Edge has 43 votes as of right now, and yet most of you don't have the guts to justify your vote. Why? Because you know you're wrong.

Is perfectly justified and acceptable to say, right? Yeah.. this is why I make the comments I do. Because 90% of every post in Bret Hart's favor hasn't been explaining why Hart should win, so much more as people pleading why Edge should lose.. all because they just don't want to see the true better of the two, win.

As for the subject at hand, I can honestly say a lot of the points being made in previous threads such as who drew more, who took time off, popularity, etc. doesn't really hold a lot of weight with me.

Of course not, because all of those things favor Edge. You're backing Hart. Why would you want to accept anything that makes Edge the more superior of the two?

I look at this like those superhero vs. superhero questions where you compare said superheroes physical and mental powers against one another and from that data decide which superhero gets his ass handed to him. I mean, this is a wrestling match, right? The object of the match is to either pin your opponent or make him tap out, right?

Uhm.. wait, what? So you aren't comparing them based on their careers.. but you're instead matching them up as Superheros???? I.. see..

By those criteria, Bret wins. Hands down. He is the superior technical wrestler by a large margin,[/QUOTE]

But he's really not, is he. In fact, Edge holds technical abilities just the same. Hart might have an edge (no pun intended) but he's definitely not superior. And I've already explained how this doesn't even help Hart, so much as hurt him.

Edge is at his best against Superstars who's best talent is technical ability. Edge beats them. Simple as.

arguably he is the stronger of the two,

How and where on earth did you come to this conclusion?! Edge has speared the Big Show. Hart could barely lock the Sharpshooter on Yokozuna. Edge's finisher beat the Big Show. Hart had to resort to a fat guy losing his balance and hitting the back of his head to win.

Edge is stronger.. by far.

their speed is about even and Bret has proven in the ring that he is a master tactician in the ring.

Except, their speed isn't even is it. Edge is quicker, and once again I've proven why Bret being a "master tactician" is going to hinder him, more than help him.

Envisioning the match in my head, all I can see is Edge tapping out in the middle of the ring. That's why my vote goes to Bret.

I respect your vote. Just like I respect everyone else's vote. Regardless how this goes, a great Wrestler WILL win. Be it Hart, or Edge.

But that doesn't mean Hart is better than Edge, in my opinion. Because he's simply not.

 

[Slyfox696]

Sly, you spout off the head with all this crap from a self-titled Book, written by Bret Hart, how on earth is that suppose to be worth anything in this match?

Well, when we're talking about drawing ability, and you want facts on international drawing, then what else is more believable than the guy who was actually THERE?

But, no, of course you're right. You know a lot more about Bret Hart's life than Bret Hart does.

So, let me try to understand this. You want us to take Bret's word on why he's the good guy, why he's the hero, why he's the so-called Best? Uhm, no, I think I'll form my own opinion rather than to take a guy's self-absorbed opinion of himself.

Who the fuck said anything of the kind?

I'm saying that Bret's book is proof that he was a hell of an International draw, and Vince begging him to be part of the International tour during his time off is proof of that.

So, after reading endless amounts of bullshit and rather stupid opinions in the bar room, spam zone, and in here

You've decided to quit posting on the subject, and admit you're wrong and Hart is better?

Wrestling is a scripted sport. If it could be called scripted and a sport, in the same sentence. No one wins based on true abilities, or actual power. No one wins because they can actually, and truly defeat the other guy. They win, because they're scripted and booked to win. If anyone can dispute this - I'd love to see you attempt it.

LOL

This coming from the guy who used kayfabe gimmick to justify Edge winning in the last several rounds?

Good fucking Lord, Will, your pot is blacker than ever.

But, I guess when you're getting defeated on all fronts, its good to try a different tactic.

Well over half the so-called regulars on this site claim Edge has only gotten this far based off popularity, and nothing else.

Not true. I said he got this far because many of the people voting for him are clueless. Try and keep it straight.

Why? Because the only way to make it in the world of Professional Wrestling is by getting the fans to love and/or hate you.

So, you're admitting Hart was better than Edge? Because Hart was many times the draw Edge ever has been.

I'm not saying Bret hasn't done that, but without a shadow of a doubt - Edge has done it 10x better. How can I say this? Because of how much Edge has been involved in Main Event angles, comparable to Bret Hart.

When you say "main event angles", you DO keep in mind that there are three different main-event scenes these days, right?

Sly asked me to look up how many Pay per views Hart's missed from a span until Wrestlemania XII. (when Hart took time off) Bret Hart missed a pair of In Your House shows, and had several meaningless "just to be included" matches on other shows. So, first and foremost Sly - I just proved you wrong, in your assumption that Hart hasn't missed anything.

Uhh, Will, you didn't look very hard.

Bret Hart worked EVERY SINGLE PPV show, from Wrestlemania 8 to the first PPV after Wrestlemania 12. Would you like me to post them? OK.

WM 8 - vs. Piper
Summerslam 92 - vs. Davey Boy Smith
Survivor Series 92 - vs. Shawn Michaels
Royal Rumble 93 - vs. Razor Ramon
WM 9 - vs. Yokozuna
King of the Ring 93 - beat Bam Bam to WIN the KOTR
Summerslam 93 - vs. Doink
Survivor Series 93 - Hart family vs. HBK and his Knights
Royal Rumble 94 - wins the Royal Rumble
WM 10 - vs. Owen and vs. Yokozuna
King of the Ring 94 - vs. Diesel
Summerslam 94 - vs. Owen
Survivor Series 94 - vs. Backlund
Royal Rumble 95 - vs. Diesel
WM 11 - vs. Backlund
IYH 1 - vs. Hakushi
KOTR 95 - vs. Lawler
IYH 2 - vs. Jean-Pierre Lafitte
Summerslam 95 - vs. Isaac Yankem
IYH 3 - vs. Jean-Pierre Lafitte
IYH 4 - vs. Issac Yankem
Survivor Series 95 - vs. Diesel
IYH 5 - British Bulldog
Royal Rumble 96 - vs. Undertaker
IYH 6 - vs. Diesel
WM 12 - vs. Shawn Michaels


It sucks when you're caught in a lie...again...right Will?

I never thought you'd stoop so low as to actually LIE about history. Terrible.

Now, added onto that.. how about you do something for a change. Check out how often Bret Hart was included on W.W.F. Monday Night Raw, from its beginning until the time he left the Company. Throughout the first two years, Hart was rarely even ON the show in a match. Need proof, you know because I assume you won't try looking up what you know is going to show your pick as being worthless and all.. here you go.

1993: 3-1 record. (4 matches within the year, total)
1994: 4-0 record. (4 matches within the year, total) - the same year he reigned as Heavyweight Champion for most of
1995: 7-2 record. (9 matches within the year, total)
1996: 7-0 record. (7 matches within the year, total) - the same year Hart was Heavyweight Champion, then took a break for most of the year.

Who gives a fuck? Champions don't wrestle on TV back then. Ever watch Superstars back in the day? How often did Hulk Hogan wrestle on the show? Almost never.

You don't overexpose your champion, Will. You make people BUY shows to watch him work, not give it away for free on TV. That's how wrestling always worked, with the exception of supershows like Clash of the Champions or Saturday Night's Main Event, until the Monday Night Wars came, and both companies offered big matches to steal ratings.

So, from this basically the conclusion I've come from is, Sly, you're full of so much shit you need to get a colonoscopy to find out if you need further help with that issue.

This is coming from the person who literally LIED about what shows Hart was on, and chooses to ignore how wrestling worked before the Monday Night Wars.

Will, just give up already. You're grasping desperately at straws that aren't there, and you're failing miserably. Everytime you lie, I catch you in it. Just quit.

Bret Hart, during arguably his best moments in Wrestling history, was on Raw from the beginning throughout the year of 1996 a total of 24 times in actual matches. So how you're claiming he was the biggest draw is well beyond me.

See above.

Now, do me a favor.. look up Edge's televised matches. His record won't be as epic as the won/loss record that is Hart's.. but I guarantee he'll have eclipsed Hart's entire stint on Raw appearances through matches within his first two years.

Well, yeah? Of course. For two reasons. During Edge's first two years, he was an undercard worker, and undercard workers always get on TV because no one will pay to see them work, and two, wrestling has changed drastically since when Raw first started because of the Monday Night Wars.

Good Lord Will, you're not even trying anymore. I mean, you're whole argument now is that, as an undercard worker that no one would pay to watch, Edge appeared on free TV more than the World Wrestling Federation champion, whom the WWF made people pay to watch.

Seriously, that's your argument. Go sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Will, for a person with your posting skills, this is such a crock of shit. I must say that you know DAMN WELL that this is a popularity contest. I mean, it HAS TO be. It's a fictional tournament. The only thing that matters in tournaments like this is people's opinions. There is no PROOF as to why a wrestler from one generation can beat another wrestler from a generation later. But, we do our best to give our views and opinions. It's a debate, remember?

D-Man, I think for once you've allowed your growing ego to overload your post. You missed the understanding of what I was getting at.

I was AGREEING that this is indeed a Popularity contest. Whereas most of the people voting against Edge right now, are claiming he's only gotten this far because of his popularity.

When the truth is, in order to make it in the Professional Wrestling business - YOU MUST BE POPULAR WITH THE FANS!!

Besides, it's nice to see you feel the pain that we've been going through every time Edge has won in past rounds against (who we feel to be) far superior opponents. We've been just as fristrated as you seem to be. It sucks to lose, doesn't it?

In all honesty, you have zero idea how much I've been through since the start of this week. Edge losing, is nothing compared to what I'm going through and if he does, he does.

I feel no shame in knowing Edge (if, he loses) will still be considered the 2nd Greatest Wrestler of All-Time by the general majority of everyone who's taken votes in this Tournament. I feel no shame in knowing I was a big help in pushing Edge this far, when no one else can hold a candle to how passionate I've been in pushing my favorite and explaining why he should win.

He's beaten some of the bigger names in this business, and deservedly so.

So yeah, if he loses it'll suck. Not saying it won't. It'll be kinda crappy that all my hard work went down the drain in the end - just because people allowed foolish feelings of watching Edge beat their favorites, so in return they just vote against him without caring why.

But when its over, I enjoy and respect BOTH men that are in the finals. Whereas guys like Austin, and Taker, are shit to me.. and it was my pleasure watching them fall by the way-side. However, once again - you don't have even the slightest clue what my week has been like - and my favorite Wrestler possibly losing an imaginary tournament thats meant to be fun, and has been.. holds no weight in everything else I've had to deal with.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Well, when we're talking about drawing ability, and you want facts on international drawing, then what else is more believable than the guy who was actually THERE?

Wait, so now you're saying Hart was only a draw on the International Front? So how does that matter in a match - taking place in the United States?

Furthermore, how is International ratings mean half as much as United States drawing ability? You know, the the Country they perform in 80% (if not more) of the time???

I'm glad Hart helped contribute to the International aspect. When that comes to mean anything relevant to this match-up, I might actually give a crap.

But, no, of course you're right. You know a lot more about Bret Hart's life than Bret Hart does.

Oh yes, Sly, because Bret Hart hasn't ever said how he was never wrong in several aspects of Wrestling. How he wasn't ever the bad guy, how he was only the victim over and over and over, so much so that the Condom people have tried hiring him to be a spokesperson for as much as he claims to be screwed.

I'm not going to take Bret Hart's word for anything regarding his career, because it's obviously very one-sided. And if you want to be a gullible individual in believing him, then go find several Edge promos in which he's said how he's the greatest Wrestler ever.. you know, cause who would know Edge, better than himself?

It's only the same logic you're stating, right Sly?

Uhh, Will, you didn't look very hard.

Bret Hart worked EVERY SINGLE PPV show, from Wrestlemania 8 to the first PPV after Wrestlemania 12. Would you like me to post them? OK.

WM 8 - vs. Piper
Summerslam 92 - vs. Davey Boy Smith
Survivor Series 92 - vs. Shawn Michaels
Royal Rumble 93 - vs. Razor Ramon
WM 9 - vs. Yokozuna
King of the Ring 93 - beat Bam Bam to WIN the KOTR
Summerslam 93 - vs. Doink
Survivor Series 93 - Hart family vs. HBK and his Knights
Royal Rumble 94 - wins the Royal Rumble
WM 10 - vs. Owen and vs. Yokozuna
King of the Ring 94 - vs. Diesel
Summerslam 94 - vs. Owen
Survivor Series 94 - vs. Backlund
Royal Rumble 95 - vs. Diesel
WM 11 - vs. Backlund
IYH 1 - vs. Hakushi
KOTR 95 - vs. Lawler
IYH 2 - vs. Jean-Pierre Lafitte
Summerslam 95 - vs. Isaac Yankem
IYH 3 - vs. Jean-Pierre Lafitte
IYH 4 - vs. Issac Yankem
Survivor Series 95 - vs. Diesel
IYH 5 - British Bulldog
Royal Rumble 96 - vs. Undertaker
IYH 6 - vs. Diesel
WM 12 - vs. Shawn Michaels

Except he didn't Wrestle on those shows, in front of a Pay per view audience.. did he? Which is what I said, what you tried hiding.

Look back at those shows, you know, the ones you try claiming he wrestled at - and show me where he was on the show that broadcast to the world - not just the dark matches that you're trying to sell as something more.

It sucks when you're caught in a lie...again...right Will?

It really does suck, when I catch you in lies, Sly.. because I thought you were better than that. I guess I was wrong.

I never thought you'd stoop so low as to actually LIE about history. Terrible.

Yea, except for the fact I didn't.. now did I?

Who gives a fuck? Champions don't wrestle on TV back then. Ever watch Superstars back in the day? How often did Hulk Hogan wrestle on the show? Almost never.

Sly, I've cut half of your reply off - because now you're just spouting silly nonsense. Hulk Hogan, really? When did Hogan defend his Championship - let alone wrestle in W.C.W, AT ALL?!

Oh, but you need more proof? Fine - look up all those same shows. Then tell me how often Kevin Nash (Diesel) was on in wrestling matches, when he was Champion. Or Shawn Michaels, or Yokozuna. I bet all of them were broadcast in matches more than Hart.

So why was Hart the only seeming Champion to be held out of matches? Were they afraid he might get injured, or was he just a lazy Champion?

 

[Slyfox696]

Wait, so now you're saying Hart was only a draw on the International Front? So how does that matter in a match - taking place in the United States?

Will, you suck at trying to twist facts.

No, I said he was a big US draw, and a HUGE International draw. From that, we spawned off to a side topic of whether he was a huge international draw or not, and I just proved that he was.

So, like I said, big US draw, bigger International draw, and your argument sucks.

Furthermore, how is International ratings mean half as much as United States drawing ability? You know, the the Country they perform in 80% (if not more) of the time???

He was the lead dog in the US as well...the International was just where he was great. C'mon Will, try and remember more than 2 posts at a time.

I'm glad Hart helped contribute to the International aspect. When that comes to mean anything relevant to this match-up, I might actually give a crap.

LOL, so you agree he was a big international draw, and was a lead draw in the United States...and that he was the biggest draw in the company.

Which was my point all along. Thank you for proving my point.

I'm not going to take Bret Hart's word for anything regarding his career, because it's obviously very one-sided. And if you want to be a gullible individual in believing him, then go find several Edge promos in which he's said how he's the greatest Wrestler ever.. you know, cause who would know Edge, better than himself?

It's only the same logic you're stating, right Sly?

Not even close Will. Edge is in character, Hart is not.

And of course you wouldn't take Hart's word, it completely kills your argument. At this point, I don't expect any kind of reasonable thought from you, merely one-sided lying.

Not that I blame you for being a liar, it's you're only chance, considering the facts and truth are against you.

Except he didn't Wrestle on those shows, in front of a Pay per view audience.. did he? Which is what I said, what you tried hiding.

Uhh, yes, he did. He wrestled on every single one of them.

Unlike you, I don't lie.

Look back at those shows, you know, the ones you try claiming he wrestled at - and show me where he was on the show that broadcast to the world - not just the dark matches that you're trying to sell as something more.

LOL..."claim" he wrestled at? No, he really did wrestle them. And only two of them were dark matches, but who gives a fuck? The WWF still sold tickets to those shows by saying that Bret Hart would be on the card....thus, he was still drawing, and once again, proving your argument ridiculous.

It really does suck, when I catch you in lies, Sly.. because I thought you were better than that. I guess I was wrong.

Except, I'm not the liar between the two of us, now am I? That honor goes to you.

Sly, I've cut half of your reply off - because now you're just spouting silly nonsense. Hulk Hogan, really? When did Hogan defend his Championship - let alone wrestle in W.C.W, AT ALL?!

Fine then, when did Randy Savage? When did Ultimate Warrior?

They didn't. The point is that your champions don't wrestle for free. You PAY to watch the champions wrestle. It's just good business.

Oh, but you need more proof? Fine - look up all those same shows. Then tell me how often Kevin Nash (Diesel) was on in wrestling matches, when he was Champion. Or Shawn Michaels, or Yokozuna. I bet all of them were broadcast in matches more than Hart.

So why was Hart the only seeming Champion to be held out of matches? Were they afraid he might get injured, or was he just a lazy Champion?

Oh Will, I love it when you try to manipulate those of lesser intelligence.

Unfortunately for you, I know better...and what's more, I know you that you know better.

The proof is there. You make people pay to watch the champion wrestle. And when HBK was champion, they were in the Monday Night Wars, where the theory of free TV promoting was changing drastically, thanks to trying to win the ratings war.


Will, like I said before, go sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.

 

[JenovasWitness]

No, it is not because I am backing Hart that these things don't hold any weight for me. That's an interesting spin but it is an incorrect one. I just do not see these things as holding any weight in a one fall, winner take all wrestling match where previous accomplishment means nothing and the physical and mental abilities the wrestlers take into the ring with them decide the outcome.

And I do not see how you can say 90% of people posting in favor of Bret when you only make reference to an individual. You ask for proof in your previous posts but fail to provide adequate proof in your response here. Who comprises the 90% you speak of?

And I am not saying Bret and Edge are superheroes. Another interesting, yet misguided spin. I just likened this fictional match to one of those questions like, "if Superman fought Wolverine, who would win?" You don't decide who wins between the two because Wolverine had more friends or because Superman turned his back on the Earth to go in search of Kryptonian survivors, you just look at the fact that Superman is near fucking invincible and deduce that Wolverine can't get the job done because the tools and powers he possesses are simply inadequate. Much like how Edge would find that the tools he has to offer in this match up can't compare to the Hitman's.

Nearly every technical wrestler that Edge has ever faced in the ring has defeated him also. You make it sound like he has a 100% win ratio against guys who know how to put there moves together. Clearly not the case, however.

Spearing the Big Show was probably an easy task after he took both Triple H and Cena's respective finishers. And we all know that if Big Show was not working the match, he would have bounced off of Show's ample tummy much like the more muscular Cena did when he hit him with a flying shoulderblock.

Speed wise, meh, it's so close, who cares really? Speed is not really either man's game anyways.

I respect your vote as well and you have put a hell of a lot of effort into this tournament which is worthy of kudos. But from watching both men in the ring for as long as I have, I just cannot see Bret losing. This one ends with the Sharpshooter.

 

[Shocky]

I am shamelessly bumping this thread since someone posted in the Semi-final match, and I don't want people to be confused by thinking that this match is over.

There are 25 minutes left in this years Wrestlezone Tournament, with only 7 votes differentiating the two finalist. If you haven't voted yet, your time is almost up. If you don't vote, and bitch, red rep for you.

 

[Slyfox696]

If you haven't voted yet, this is the only post you need to read.

Vote for Bret Hart. Why? Let me tell you.

1) Bret Hart is the better draw. Edge supporters have already agreed that Bret Hart was a very good draw, and Edge has never even been in the Top 5 of the WWE in terms of drawing.

Edge supporter agreeing that Hart is a good draw:

I'm glad Hart helped contribute to the International aspect.

2) Bret Hart is the better technical wrestler. This, too, has been agreed upon by Edge supporters.

Here is a quote from Edge supporter:

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not knocking Hart’s technical ability. He is without a shadow of a doubt better than Edge as far as technical wrestling goes.

3) Bret Hart is better in classic 1-on-1 matches. This has also be agreed upon by Edge supporters.

Edge supporter quote:

Sure his singles matchese weren't as great as Hart's

4) Bret Hart carried the WWF title longer in his first 3 title reigns, than Edge has in his 9 title reigns combined. Hart carried it for 555 days in his first three reigns, and Edge has carried it for only 434 days in his 9 reigns. And Hart won 4 more World titles after that, for a grand total of 7.

5) Bret Hart made many wrestlers look great, including his brother Owen, Davey Boy Smith, Mr. Perfect, Steve Austin, Hakushi, and Diesel. Who has Edge ever made look better than they were?


Bret Hart is the better worker, had the better career, and would win this match in a kayfabe situation.

Vote Hart!

 

[TheOneBigWill]

Its over. Whelp, I'd like to be the first to congratulate Bret Hart on a well earned victory, afterall he was the only guy out of how many hundreds that could defeat Edge?

All in all, if Edge had to lose I'm glad it was to someone with Hart's overall career accomplishments. Bret Hart is a very respectable Pro Wrestler - one who's career truly ended before it should've, all because of a less talented hack in Goldberg.

Well done to everyone who supported Bret Hart, and my personal thank you to everyone who backed and voted for Edge. Not just this round, but throughout this entire Tournament. I guess next year, I'll just have to try that much harder to get Edge the final victory.

Congrats once again to Bret Hart. Here's a tribute to the winner.

[youtube]LrKml4RufQg[/youtube]​

 

[JenovasWitness]

Its over. Whelp, I'd like to be the first to congratulate Bret Hart on a well earned victory, afterall he was the only guy out of how many hundreds that could defeat Edge?

All in all, if Edge had to lose I'm glad it was to someone with Hart's overall career accomplishments. Bret Hart is a very respectable Pro Wrestler - one who's career truly ended before it should've, all because of a less talented hack in Goldberg.

Well done to everyone who supported Bret Hart, and my personal thank you to everyone who backed and voted for Edge. Not just this round, but throughout this entire Tournament. I guess next year, I'll just have to try that much harder to get Edge the final victory.

Congrats once again to Bret Hart. Here's a tribute to the winner.

[youtube]LrKml4RufQg[/youtube]​

Will, congratulations on a show of class at the end of a hard fought tourney. Your efforts definitely made the process interesting.