I really don't understand this whole, "Edge always finds a way to win big matches..." thing. At the last Pay Per View, he lost to a crackhead in his own match! For the title, no less. If that's not a big match, what is? More recent losses... He lost the elimination chamber at No Way Out in about five minutes. He lost at Wrestlemania. Edge rarely ever wins a big match without help.
ECW Region Finals: Edge vs. Steve Austin
- Thread starter Shocky
- Start date
Cena's Little Helper
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Edge hasn't really gotten any hate in this thread. What's been said against him is the truth. How did he break into the main event? How many great matches has he had that either weren't tag team matches or that didn't involve a gimmick?
The answers to these questions may seem negative, but they're the truth. Edge is great at what he does, but he would have floundered in the Attitude Era. WWE's heroes of today are as babyface as they get; they have strong moral principles which Edge can easy capitalize on. Do you think this would have been the case with the likes Austin and The Rock? Hell, no. Even though they were faces, I would argue that those guys were less morally principled than Edge.
With the possible exception of Benoit going over Hogan, I don't see any others. There may be some others that we were miffed at, but that probably had more to do with our personal tastes than with anything objective.
That's cool man if you feel that way. I respect that. I completely and wholeheartedly disagree, but I still respect what you have to say.
How the hell is Edge winning this? You people should be ashamed of yourselves. If this was a ladder match, I could at least understand why people would vote Edge, but this is a standard match in Austin's home state of Texas.
The fact of the matter is that Austin is a better in-ring worker, played a more dominant character, and is one of only two men to have completely revolutionized wrestling in the modern era. Edge isn't fit to spitshine Austin's boots.
I refuse to go back and read whatever piss bucket excuses people are giving to justify their vote of Edge, so if someone would like to post them in a nice and neat order, I'll be happy to scoff at and ridicule them.
The fact of the matter is that Austin is a better in-ring worker, played a more dominant character, and is one of only two men to have completely revolutionized wrestling in the modern era. Edge isn't fit to spitshine Austin's boots.
I refuse to go back and read whatever piss bucket excuses people are giving to justify their vote of Edge, so if someone would like to post them in a nice and neat order, I'll be happy to scoff at and ridicule them.
Hyorinmaru
Sit Upon The Frozen Heavens
When it counts he does manage to win big matches.
They had Hardy win so Punk could beat him and start a heel turn. beating Edge would not have accomplished that.
Nice job leaving out he went on to win the second one that night
To Vince's Golden Boy John Cena and Edge didn't even get pinned Big Show did. You also left out Edge winning it back in a brutal Last man Standing Match the next month.
You'd make a good politician. You only tell people what will help your case and to hell with what actually happened
Steamboat Ricky
WZCW's Living Legend
And you have obviously ignored every point that I have made thus far. Taking all that into consideration...Edge should really have no chance whatsoever. The blind Edge following in this matchup is astounding.
He's 0-3 in his last three Wrestlemanias, two of which were for a World Title.
Just how much bigger do the matches get?
Who gives a fuck? He lost. He held the title for 42 days before losing it. That's terrible.
And he held that title for 49 days. Not exactly impressive.
LOL you're so ridiculous. I love how you keep jumping back and forth between kayfabe and real life when it suits your purpose.
Coming from someone who double-talked/type through his whole post, perhaps you aren't the one to talk.
That i complete and utter bollocks. Edge's current character probably would have worked better in the Attitude Era than it does today, the controversy he has bought would have been eaten up in the Attitude Era.
Where the hell are you getting that? Did Rock or Austin ever publically steal their best friends girlfriend and get said friend fired? Did Rock or Austin ever try to have a live sex show on Raw? Answers to both are no. They may have been a gray line with Rock and Austin but they were never morally corrupt, they were Anti-Heroes but you wouldn't have caught Austin cashing in a contract for a Title shot at the end of a PPV after the person he was facing had just gone through a ridiculous match, and you wouldn't have caught Rock fucking Stephanie McMahon (or another female authority figure) just to get ahead.
Thriller Ant
Beep Bop Boop
You can complain about the short reign, but no one has held the World Heavyweight Championship for more than 100 days since 2007-8, when some guy named Edge did. The WHC has been thrown around like a hot potato since around 2006 or 2007. And if you want to talk about short reigns, Austin had exactly as many World Title reigns last over 100 days as Edge did/does.
I always knew Edge was overrated, but I didn't know how overrated he was until I read this thread and saw the poll results.
Edge, a better wrestler than Stone Cold Steve Austin? What The Fuck?? Edge is in no way shape or form a better professional wrestler than Austin. Not even close. Charisma, mic skills, storytelling ability, draw, popularity, impact, classic matches, quality of title reigns, memorable moments... just about everything that can be used to judge what a good professional wrestler is, Austin is better than Edge at everything. Austin vs. Hart at WM13, Austin vs. Rock at WM17, Austin vs. Benoit from SD! and Austin vs. Angle from SS01 are all better one-on-one matches than ANYTHING Edge has ever produced. In fact, I'm still waiting to see a one-on-one match from Edge that I'd consider to be a true classic, or 4 1/2 stars or more.
When someone is THAT much greater than the other, like Austin is to Edge, there shouldn't even be any need to see who would win in a kayfabe match. And even if they did have a kayfabe match, in their primes, Austin would destroy Edge. Edge has lost a world championship nine times in three and a half years. NINE TIMES. That's ridiculous. Edge is good, but Austin is one of the greatest of all time. Vote for Austin.
Edge, a better wrestler than Stone Cold Steve Austin? What The Fuck?? Edge is in no way shape or form a better professional wrestler than Austin. Not even close. Charisma, mic skills, storytelling ability, draw, popularity, impact, classic matches, quality of title reigns, memorable moments... just about everything that can be used to judge what a good professional wrestler is, Austin is better than Edge at everything. Austin vs. Hart at WM13, Austin vs. Rock at WM17, Austin vs. Benoit from SD! and Austin vs. Angle from SS01 are all better one-on-one matches than ANYTHING Edge has ever produced. In fact, I'm still waiting to see a one-on-one match from Edge that I'd consider to be a true classic, or 4 1/2 stars or more.
When someone is THAT much greater than the other, like Austin is to Edge, there shouldn't even be any need to see who would win in a kayfabe match. And even if they did have a kayfabe match, in their primes, Austin would destroy Edge. Edge has lost a world championship nine times in three and a half years. NINE TIMES. That's ridiculous. Edge is good, but Austin is one of the greatest of all time. Vote for Austin.
Cena's Little Helper
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Did you even read what I wrote, or did you just automatically think "controversy," and intuitively think that two things that can be described as such would match together perfectly? I gave a sound explanation that you just completely ignored.
Yes, Edge is, as you mention in the latter part of this post, sexually controversial. But, where did that get The Godfather and Val Venis?
Did Edge ever try to attack the head of the company with police surrounding him? Did he ever come out with a Budweiser truck and hose down multiple people? Did he ever stoop so low as to attack someone while they were in the hospital? Did he ever go to someone's actual house and stalk them? Did he ever forklift a car one of his opponent's was hiding in, raise it 20 feet high, and then drop it?
Obviously, the answer to all of these questions is no.
[QUOTE="Lionheart" Thrill Jericho;1134004]You can complain about the short reign, but no one has held the World Heavyweight Championship for more than 100 days since 2007-8, when some guy named Edge did.[/QUOTE]
Wow, way to go back in history. I mean, you went back a whole year for ONE title. You've got to be kidding me.
Triple H held his WWE title for 208 days, which ended in 2008. Don't give me that bullshit.
Wow, way to go back in history. I mean, you went back a whole year for ONE title. You've got to be kidding me.
Triple H held his WWE title for 208 days, which ended in 2008. Don't give me that bullshit.
Thriller Ant
Beep Bop Boop
I was only talking about the WHC, I knew about Trips reign. I only mentioned that one because besides the short time the WWE Championship was on SmackDown, Edge has focused on the World Title. And you can't deny that the short reign argument goes both ways because most of Austin's reigns were short also.
How is Austin not winning this match right now.
Saying Edge is sadistic or whatever is almost irrelevant seeing as this is under WWE rules. This is a huge match up here. Austin has proven time and time again that in a big match he is cluthc and more than not pulls out the win. Hell even with teh Chairman of the WWE trying to screw him everyway possible he still managed to pull out the victory. Edge on the other hand, give me a break, sure he has more title reigns but look at their length, and the real tell all about most his title reigns are that they were short and he also lost a lot of big title matches. All his wins come by being an oppurtunist. Well even if he is given an oppurtunity in this one , austin has proven time and time again that he can overcome almost insurmountable odds to get the W.
Do the right thing people.
Vote Stone Cold Steve Austin.
Saying Edge is sadistic or whatever is almost irrelevant seeing as this is under WWE rules. This is a huge match up here. Austin has proven time and time again that in a big match he is cluthc and more than not pulls out the win. Hell even with teh Chairman of the WWE trying to screw him everyway possible he still managed to pull out the victory. Edge on the other hand, give me a break, sure he has more title reigns but look at their length, and the real tell all about most his title reigns are that they were short and he also lost a lot of big title matches. All his wins come by being an oppurtunist. Well even if he is given an oppurtunity in this one , austin has proven time and time again that he can overcome almost insurmountable odds to get the W.
Do the right thing people.
Vote Stone Cold Steve Austin.
[QUOTE="Lionheart" Thrill Jericho;1134059]I was only talking about the WHC, I knew about Trips reign. I only mentioned that one because besides the short time the WWE Championship was on SmackDown, Edge has focused on the World Title. [/quote]Of course you would only talk about the WHC, because the WWE title would completely kill your point.
But, do you not see how ridiculous it is to say that no one has held the title for 100 days when only talking about one title and one year?
He held his title that was won at Wrestlemania 17 for 175 days.
Of his 9 title reigns, Edge has had only THREE reigns that lasted longer than 50 days, much less 100.
WHC: 70, 105, 29, 49, 42
WWE: 21, 76, 21, 21
Seriously...how many one month reigns is that for Edge?
Austin's reigns go as follows: 91, 91, 56, 55, 175, 62
Hell, Edge's average title reign length is 48 days. Austin doesn't have a SINGLE reign less than Edge's average, and that includes the 1 day break of his first run as champion, when Kane won the belt for 24 hours before Austin won it back.
You're fighting a losing battle on this one.
But, do you not see how ridiculous it is to say that no one has held the title for 100 days when only talking about one title and one year?
Austin held his title for 182 days out of 183 in 1998. That's not really a short reign.
He held his title that was won at Wrestlemania 17 for 175 days.
Of his 9 title reigns, Edge has had only THREE reigns that lasted longer than 50 days, much less 100.
WHC: 70, 105, 29, 49, 42
WWE: 21, 76, 21, 21
Seriously...how many one month reigns is that for Edge?
Austin's reigns go as follows: 91, 91, 56, 55, 175, 62
Hell, Edge's average title reign length is 48 days. Austin doesn't have a SINGLE reign less than Edge's average, and that includes the 1 day break of his first run as champion, when Kane won the belt for 24 hours before Austin won it back.
You're fighting a losing battle on this one.
Are people really saying that Edge being sadistic is a reason for him to win? For fuck's sake...
Austin made his career beating up his boss and kicking his opponents ass. He would jump guys from behind, beat people when they were already down, hit women and celebrities, and beat up his own tag team partners.
There was no one who can say they were more "sadistic" than Austin.
THE Madcap
I'm MASSIVE and RIPPED
So does Austin, bigger matches in fact.
Maybe so, but remember this is a kayfabe tournament, so the reasons for Edge losing to Hardy are irrelevant.
Kayfabe tournament...Kayfabe.
The aim of a triple threat match is to win, believe it or not. Edge lost that match, just as much as Big Show did,if he had blocked that FU attempt, maybe he couldve won, but he didn't and he (and Big Show) lost.
And you also left out the fact that the Big Show damn near killed Cena in order for Edge to win. So really Edge couldn't have won the title on his own. In the rules for this match, Edge wouldn't be able to pull such tricks.
Pot. Calling. Kettle. Black.
Little Jerry Lawler
Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids
I will still stand by my choice of Stone Cold because he is better overall than Edge.
The only sadistic things I've seen Edge do is beat up on old guys like Foley and Flair. Austin was doing more sadistic stuff like that every other night. You can say Edge "humping" Beaulah was controversial and sadistic, but Austin destroying Lita with a steel chair is one of the most sadistic acts I have ever seen.
I don't see anything that Edge can do that Austin wouldn't do better. Edge will bring it to Austin but I still believe Stone Cold will come out the victor.
The only sadistic things I've seen Edge do is beat up on old guys like Foley and Flair. Austin was doing more sadistic stuff like that every other night. You can say Edge "humping" Beaulah was controversial and sadistic, but Austin destroying Lita with a steel chair is one of the most sadistic acts I have ever seen.
I don't see anything that Edge can do that Austin wouldn't do better. Edge will bring it to Austin but I still believe Stone Cold will come out the victor.
Edge use to give people blood baths. He was also in a bunch of TLC matches, and hell in a cell. He's also speared his fair share of women in the WWE. You just need to watch more apparently.
You say Edge beat up old guys? Austin made a career of beating up old men. Look at Vince Mcmahon, he's not a wrestler like Flair or Foley and he was in his 50s at the time.
Thats what Edge does. It wasn't real humping the live raw sex scene was more controversial.
Lita's such an abused diva. Shes been beat up by the superstars probably more than any other diva in WWE history(barring Chyna cause she was in in ring competitor). Everyone beats up Lita, b*tch needs to get smacked.
How about wrestle? Austin does the liu thez, mudhole stomping, his elbow, and the stunner. Edge has a wide variety of moves and the sharpshooter he does now.
VOTE EDGE
Little Jerry Lawler
Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids
The only moves I've seen him do are the sharpshooter, DDT, spear, and kicks and punches. Austin's number of moves should be held against him because he won more matches than Edge doing what he was doing so why change it.
… Well, this debate has really gone into quite a tailspin here. Anyway, I’m not going to bother going into things that were six or seven pages ago, because those arguments are pretty much not in question anymore. So let’s just get into the crux of my argument.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but this is a regular wrestling match, right? Then the better “wrestler” should win, no?
Then answer me this… How does Steve Austin figure as a better wrestler than Edge? Seriously, in what ways is Stone Cold a better wrestler than Edge?
Is he more technically sound? Absolutely not. As a matter of fact, Steve’s worst losses have come to technical specialists. People that can aggravate his injured knee, and have no issue with tweaking it at angles that leave Steve in agony. Bret Hart handed his ass to him at Wrestlemania 13. Now, some of you are going to come on here and say, “Steve never gave up. He passed out from the pain.” That really doesn’t matter one little iota here, now does it? The fact of the matter is that Steve still lost his match against Bret, and for that matter, has never picked up a clean victory against Bret. If it was only one wrestler, I wouldn’t mind nearly as much. But Austin also has losses against Kurt Angle, and to the best of my knowledge, has only defeated Kurt clean once. Which is all well and fine, but he then lost a match to Chris Jericho that very same night, which immediately followed a match Jericho had against The Rock. By any stretch of the means, Steve should have had Jericho dead to rights, and it shouldn’t even be close. Jericho had just come off a match against one of the best wrestlers of his era, and was literally given no time to rest. By the way some of you God up Steve Austin, you’d assume that he would have no problem handling somebody as meager as Chris Jericho. Edge is no Angle or Hart, but he tends to get the upper hand on these wrestlers more often than not. Edge is able to go hold for hold with these men, something I argue is not the case with Austin.
Was he more agile than Edge? Fat fucking chance. Either than Steve jumping up in the air for his Lou Thesz press, not many of Austin’s matches showcase his speed whatsoever. As a matter of fact, that damn knee issue that he’s had for so long limited much of his ability to run, jump, and at some points, even walk. Edge doesn’t have to be a spot monkey to beat Austin, but he certainly has to be quicker, and able to avoid Austin’s barrage of punches, which he certainly is.
Was he a better brawler than Edge? Well, yeah, absolutely. He knew how to throw a better punch and kick than Edge did. I’m not denying that whatsoever. So I’ll consent to you that Steve can kick and punch better than Edge. How much can that really lead Steve to victory?
Is Steve tougher than Edge? Maybe, but even then that’s a debatable matter. And even then, Steve is not this indestructible machine that Austin fans claim him to be. And even if he was, Edge just wrestled a match with Brock Lesnar, someone who for my money was far more “indestructible” than Austin ever was. Edge doesn’t have a problem with wrestlers that are tough, and in this tournament at least, he’s taken out one of the toughest wrestlers in a match that actually limited his abilities. Steve may be tough, but I don’t see that playing too much of a factor here.
I’m sorry, but I’ve yet to see anyone legitimately come onto these forums, with the exceptions of xfearbefore, 48.7 v3, and Slyfox, and state what they feel it is that makes Austin a better wrestler. I’ve seen people come on here and make arguments for factors that play absolutely no role in this tournament, whatsoever. For example, some of the arguments that I’ve seen for Austin include:
A. He does better promos: If you show me anywhere that promo played any role in any wrestler beating another, I’ll give you a cookie. Literally, I will get on a fucking plane, go to wherever your house is, and give you a fucking cookie. Has there ever been a point in any match where one wrestler stops wrestling, goes to ringside, picks up a microphone, speaks, and it results in instant death for his opponent? The only time I can think of a wrestler using a promo during a match was this;
[youtube]cLbe5m4AJd0[/youtube]
Besides the asinine nature of me adding this for sheer sarcasm, if we’re going to really consider this match, Sullivan did beat Pillman. Therefore, cutting a promo mid-match doesn’t seem to be the most effective of techniques. Promos are specifically created for tickets to be sold, and for PPV buys. You can only assume, then, that this match is going to sell a shitload of buys, and it will be intriguing. It says nothing to Austin’s capability to win this match
B. Austin was a better champion: I’ve already discussed this in another post earlier in this contest, so I’m not going to repeat myself here. I’ll put it simply; Austin’s title runs were heavily padded by periods in which he was involved with tag matches, in which he lost the belt for a short amount of time (proving that, surprise, Austin is completely capable of losing, unlike what those who believe in Austin will have you believe), and in which he was involved as a special referee, enforcer, or what have you. And even then, I will argue that in the matches that Austin won during the Attitude Era, his wins came over inferior competition (more on that later).
C. Austin had a better run in a better era; I’ve discussed the actual run before, so there’s no need for me to get into this again. The focus of this discussion falls on the standards of The Attitude Era. I’m not going to try and discredit what The Attitude Era, in terms of what it did for professional wrestling. From a business standpoint, it was a phenomenal era. Vince cut costs wherever he could, and made a ton of money. He created characters that were captivating, and had one of the hottest feuds ever on his hands between himself and Steve Austin. From a business standpoint, sure, it was a great era.
From a wrestling standpoint, The Attitude Era, at least the era in which Steve was dominant, was a weak point from an actual wrestling standpoint. When people complain that today’s belts have no true meaning anymore, they have this era to thank for it. This was the beginning of a period in which belts were passed around, in an attempt to get wrestlers over, as opposed to first getting over, and then receiving the belt. If any of you get a chance, take a good look at KB’s review of all of the In Your Houses from Wrestlemania 14 on. Most of these events were absolutely terrible, and the wrestling you got on these shows tended to be uninteresting and repetitive. Also, when you really consider the wrestlers that were true main eventers during this point, it wasn’t the strongest makeup for wrestlers, and certainly no wrestlers that had the blend of size, speed, and savvy quite like Edge does. Let’s look at the names that most frequently populated the main event in Austin’s era:
The Undertaker- You’ll never hear me say too many bad things about The Undertaker. He is one of the all time greats, and never got the great run with the WWE title that he deserved. But this incarnation of The Undertaker was a poor excuse of a shell from his original form. And this Undertaker is certainly far worse of an actual wrestler, as compared to the version we have now. He had no basis for using submissions whatsoever, his conditioning was absolutely terrible, and his speed was nothing as compared to what we have today. The matches he had with Austin were nothing to write home about, and were certainly far worse than the matches he would have with Edge ten years later. The Undertaker you witnessed against Edge was more credible, and far more formidable than any version Austin faced. Besides that, The Undertaker was battling injuries, which became pretty evident by the time he took his absence in 1999.
Kane- If Vince had the balls to put Kane over The Undertaker at Wrestlemania 14, then perhaps I’d take him a bit more serious. Yes, the storyline was designed for Kane to lose at Wrestlemania, but it was the amount of jobbing Kane did to The Undertaker after that match. The Inferno match, his jobbing to Austin after one night of a title reign, and the way the WWE portrayed Kane after his one day reign, namely as the weaker, inferior brother to The Undertaker, makes me hesitant to take him seriously as a threat. Kane was also not the greatest of workers, and struggled in the ring. He was a one dimensional beast, and that one dimension was watered down in his frequent jobbing to The Undertaker.
Mankind- Ah, a great worker. Well, when one takes into consideration how few great workers were constantly in the main event scene from 1998-1999. Even then, most people assume Mankind/ Mick Foley was a jobber. He had few reigns with the title, but even Foley acknowledges that he was never going to be the standard bearer for The WWE, and that his reigns were more or less victory laps/ lifetime achievement awards. Not to mention that in the times that Foley did actually feud with Austin, he had become Dude Love. Now, I’m not sure on how we’re treating the multiple personalities of Mick Foley, but this was certainly the weakest of all of Foley’s incarnations, no matter how many times you analyze it. The only thing Dude Love ever accomplished in the WWE was a Tag Team Title run with Steve. A title run that started with HBK as Steve’s partner, and with Steve demanding he’d rather not have partner like Dude Love, as opposed to wrestling alone. That should speak volumes regarding how seriously Dude Love was taken. Nobody believed Dude could take the strap from Stone Cold, and the only times he looked even close was when he had Vince’s backing. The feud that Dude and Steve served for nothing more than to feed into Vince and Steve’s feud.
Now, you’re probably wondering why I haven’t included The Rock and Triple H into the matter. Quite simply, neither of these wrestlers were ready to become full fledged main eventers when Vince tried to present them as such in 1999. The Rock was getting pops, but it was nowhere near the pops he would receive in 2000 onwards. Was he over? Yes, he was, but he wasn’t exactly too convincing as a World Title threat until Stone Cold left to have surgery. As soon as Rocky’s program with Stone Cold ended after Backlash, he slid back down to the upper mid card, working matches with Triple H, Mr. Ass, Ken Shamrock, and other wrestlers such as them. Oh, and he started a buddy tag team with Mankind. Definitely mid card material, and definitely not ready yet for the main event, at least until Stone Cold’s departure. Triple H has a very similar story, as Vince desperately needed a main event heel that could work good matches with Steve. But by this time, Trips wasn’t exactly ready for the spotlight either, and wouldn’t be so until 2000, when, you guessed it, Stone Cold left to have neck surgery. It was probably for the best, anyway, seeing as Steve, by this point, simply couldn’t work that good of a match anymore. But even at this point, Trips simply couldn’t draw that decent of heel heat on his own. No, he needed something extra to put himself over, which was so generously given to him when Vince decided he would be the one to be Steph’s (kayfabe… err…
Husband. Up until that point, Triple H may have been working main event matches… But he wasn’t what I would consider main event capable. And hey, it’s probably for the best that I don’t include those two, because the fact is that when Vince tried to put Trips over as a main event heel, who was the first man he had do the job for Trips to start him with some major heel heat?
[youtube]i5kYFnyl8OY[/youtube]
[youtube]uwdj9TgmsNE&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube]ZeJSFZkx8LA&feature=related[/youtube]
Well, lookie here: Stone Cold jobbed to Triple H, in a period where he was nowhere near ready for the spotlight, and added just another wrestler that Stone Cold would wind up having multiple issues against.
Anyway, after Steve left, we began to see something very weird out of Vince McMahon… He required that his main event wrestlers, for the most part, had to put on… Dare I say it… Good matches? Yes, that was the case. After Steve left, The Rock and Triple H took over the reins to the future of the WWE. Not only were they able to put on excellent matches, but they were now ready to fill the void left by Steve, and become main eventers. They were finally ready to step out of the shadows, and become main eventers, themselves. And from there, Vince started to build other wrestlers similarly to how he built the Rock and Triple H. Namely, such as wrestlers like these….
And yet something funny happened here… While The Rock and Trips would wrestle these new potential stars, the main events that they put on were better than The Attitude Era’s. A match like The Rock VS. Chris Benoit is one of those hidden gems that if you really watch, you’d have to admit that it surely looked better than the matches that plagued the main event of The Attitude Era. Or even something like Chris Jericho and Triple H, The Undertaker and Kurt Angle, etc. You know why these matches were so much better than their Attitude counterparts.? Because Vince made a concerted effort to make sure that his main event wrestlers had the talent to wrestle one another, and put on good to great matches. Few will agree with me, but the WWE finally reaped the benefits of the seeds they sowed in The Attitude Era in 2000, when WWE’s profits couldn’t have been higher, and yet the WWE was able to put on wonderful matches that kept its fans satisfied. Even with its biggest star nowhere to be found.
And another superstar was early in the incubation phase, but would become quite a breakout star within this era. That man would be the Rated R Superstar, Edge.
Sure, his first matches in the spotlight were a bit spotty, but they certainly got his name out there. It made him recognizable to the audience, enough so that fans began to realize that once he slowed down his matches a bit, he’d become the future of the WWE. His matches with The Hardy’s, Dudley’s, etc. Were spoterrific to no end. But we still enjoyed them, and still marveled at the things these athletes could do. Within time, as soon as they learned to slow it down a bit, they would become superstars themselves.
And you know who was the first to learn to slow it down? Edge. He slowed it down enough to the point that people realized he was being groomed to superstardom. He was no longer wrestling in tag team ladder matches, but was wrestling names like Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, and other such wrestlers. And as time went on, he beat them. And then he beat them more. Sure, he’d still have his spotty matches, but he was the one to control them, and to lead everyone and prevent injuries. He was, more or less, the ring general for these matches. And his work would only get better and better until he hit his kayfabe peak, from 2006- Mid 2007.
Now, let’s look at some of those names that happened to be right there with him throughout that run in 2006-2007.
John Cena: I can’t do him justice on the fact that’s a great worker. If you want for an exact description, I’d suggest you go read SavageTaker’s post on why Cena is the best wrestler in the WWE today. He explains it so well, but I’ll try to add it all together. Cena is today’s Hogan, with the exception that Cena puts his best effort into every match that he does. The only difference between Hogan and Cena is that Cena works twice as hard as Hogan ever has. Otherwise, Cena is the top merchandise seller, the top face, and one of the best wrestlers within the company. A real fan understands just how good Cena is. Hogan can do just as much as Cena can, but he chose not to. It would appear that will never be the case for Cena, and that Cena will always be one of those go to workers for anything the WWE needs.
The Undertaker: I’ve already touched on this before, so I’m not going to go too much into detail. This Undertaker is flat out better than any version Austin ever faced, and may just be the best version of Taker ever. He’s more agile, he has a submission style to him, and he’s actually more imposing than he ever was before. Kayfabe wise, of course. This version of The Undertaker excels any version before him, and makes it flat out imposing to ever step in the ring with him.
HBK: Yes, the same guy who broke his back, and gave Austin nothing to work with in their Wrestlemania match. From a historical point, it was a good match. From a wrestling point, Shawn looked bloated and in so much pain. I almost had issues with rooting for Steve, just knowing how much pain Shawn was in. Simply put, that’s not the case now. Shawn is relatively healthy at this point, and is still the HBK of old. HBK’s matches, from a wrestling point, never seem to have a prime. For the most part, his matches are great, and he’s one of the all time bests the WWE has to offer.
Trips: This man just doesn’t seem to have kayfabe weak point either. His matches for the most part are good, and he seems to usually have a belt around his waist at all times. Admittedly, he was kept away from the title at Edge’s peak, but he was still prominent on television, and was a main eventer by every stretch of the means.
Randy Orton: In the same position, for the most part, with Edge. A very good wrestler, and much better than most of the wrestler’s you’ll find in the Attitude Era.
Chris Benoit: Seasoned veteran at this point, and still going extremely strong. Still just a good a worker as he’d ever been, and was coming off a recent run with The World Heavyweight Championship. Still the submission specialist, but this time as a main eventer, and still putting on magnificent wrestling matches.
RVD: Don’t tell you don’t miss this man’s work. A former WWE champion himself, and provided athleticism that just wasn’t found too often in the main eventers of the Attitude Era. Still massively over. Yes, he would wind up in ECW, but he also was built extremely well for his kayfabe height, even beating the kayfabe super strong Cena.
Kurt Angle: Wasn’t around too long, but when he was, could still put on magnificent matches. Very strong main eventer, and wrestler, as well.
Rey Mysterio: A shell of his former self? I guess you could look at him that way. Or, you could look at him as a former World champion that, even with his weak knees, was still better than half of the workers, if not most of them, in The Attitude Era during Steve’s run.
Kane: A tad bit of a weaker kayfabe powerful superstar, but a better wrestler than he use to be, and was actually a viable main eventer. This was before The WWE jobbed him into oblivion. This version of Kane actually still meant something, as opposed to the Kane you see now.
Batista: Good worker? Eh… Admittedly, not so much. A viable main eventer, and capable of holding his own in a match? Yes, absolutely.
So you see, this version of the main event scene has many more good to great to excellent workers within its confines. It wasn’t simply placed upon three or four people to hold the workload. All of these wrestlers could be counted on to provide main event caliber matches, and to still get pretty much over. Is the WWE in a lull at this point? Yes, but that has absolutely nothing to do with quality of the wrestling matches. It stems, more or less, from the poor booking, as the wrestling is just as good as it’s ever been, and certainly better than it was in The Attitude Era.
And the last time I checked, this was a wrestling match, in which the best wrestler wins.
That distinction goes to Edge.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but this is a regular wrestling match, right? Then the better “wrestler” should win, no?
Then answer me this… How does Steve Austin figure as a better wrestler than Edge? Seriously, in what ways is Stone Cold a better wrestler than Edge?
Is he more technically sound? Absolutely not. As a matter of fact, Steve’s worst losses have come to technical specialists. People that can aggravate his injured knee, and have no issue with tweaking it at angles that leave Steve in agony. Bret Hart handed his ass to him at Wrestlemania 13. Now, some of you are going to come on here and say, “Steve never gave up. He passed out from the pain.” That really doesn’t matter one little iota here, now does it? The fact of the matter is that Steve still lost his match against Bret, and for that matter, has never picked up a clean victory against Bret. If it was only one wrestler, I wouldn’t mind nearly as much. But Austin also has losses against Kurt Angle, and to the best of my knowledge, has only defeated Kurt clean once. Which is all well and fine, but he then lost a match to Chris Jericho that very same night, which immediately followed a match Jericho had against The Rock. By any stretch of the means, Steve should have had Jericho dead to rights, and it shouldn’t even be close. Jericho had just come off a match against one of the best wrestlers of his era, and was literally given no time to rest. By the way some of you God up Steve Austin, you’d assume that he would have no problem handling somebody as meager as Chris Jericho. Edge is no Angle or Hart, but he tends to get the upper hand on these wrestlers more often than not. Edge is able to go hold for hold with these men, something I argue is not the case with Austin.
Was he more agile than Edge? Fat fucking chance. Either than Steve jumping up in the air for his Lou Thesz press, not many of Austin’s matches showcase his speed whatsoever. As a matter of fact, that damn knee issue that he’s had for so long limited much of his ability to run, jump, and at some points, even walk. Edge doesn’t have to be a spot monkey to beat Austin, but he certainly has to be quicker, and able to avoid Austin’s barrage of punches, which he certainly is.
Was he a better brawler than Edge? Well, yeah, absolutely. He knew how to throw a better punch and kick than Edge did. I’m not denying that whatsoever. So I’ll consent to you that Steve can kick and punch better than Edge. How much can that really lead Steve to victory?
Is Steve tougher than Edge? Maybe, but even then that’s a debatable matter. And even then, Steve is not this indestructible machine that Austin fans claim him to be. And even if he was, Edge just wrestled a match with Brock Lesnar, someone who for my money was far more “indestructible” than Austin ever was. Edge doesn’t have a problem with wrestlers that are tough, and in this tournament at least, he’s taken out one of the toughest wrestlers in a match that actually limited his abilities. Steve may be tough, but I don’t see that playing too much of a factor here.
I’m sorry, but I’ve yet to see anyone legitimately come onto these forums, with the exceptions of xfearbefore, 48.7 v3, and Slyfox, and state what they feel it is that makes Austin a better wrestler. I’ve seen people come on here and make arguments for factors that play absolutely no role in this tournament, whatsoever. For example, some of the arguments that I’ve seen for Austin include:
A. He does better promos: If you show me anywhere that promo played any role in any wrestler beating another, I’ll give you a cookie. Literally, I will get on a fucking plane, go to wherever your house is, and give you a fucking cookie. Has there ever been a point in any match where one wrestler stops wrestling, goes to ringside, picks up a microphone, speaks, and it results in instant death for his opponent? The only time I can think of a wrestler using a promo during a match was this;
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Besides the asinine nature of me adding this for sheer sarcasm, if we’re going to really consider this match, Sullivan did beat Pillman. Therefore, cutting a promo mid-match doesn’t seem to be the most effective of techniques. Promos are specifically created for tickets to be sold, and for PPV buys. You can only assume, then, that this match is going to sell a shitload of buys, and it will be intriguing. It says nothing to Austin’s capability to win this match
B. Austin was a better champion: I’ve already discussed this in another post earlier in this contest, so I’m not going to repeat myself here. I’ll put it simply; Austin’s title runs were heavily padded by periods in which he was involved with tag matches, in which he lost the belt for a short amount of time (proving that, surprise, Austin is completely capable of losing, unlike what those who believe in Austin will have you believe), and in which he was involved as a special referee, enforcer, or what have you. And even then, I will argue that in the matches that Austin won during the Attitude Era, his wins came over inferior competition (more on that later).
C. Austin had a better run in a better era; I’ve discussed the actual run before, so there’s no need for me to get into this again. The focus of this discussion falls on the standards of The Attitude Era. I’m not going to try and discredit what The Attitude Era, in terms of what it did for professional wrestling. From a business standpoint, it was a phenomenal era. Vince cut costs wherever he could, and made a ton of money. He created characters that were captivating, and had one of the hottest feuds ever on his hands between himself and Steve Austin. From a business standpoint, sure, it was a great era.
From a wrestling standpoint, The Attitude Era, at least the era in which Steve was dominant, was a weak point from an actual wrestling standpoint. When people complain that today’s belts have no true meaning anymore, they have this era to thank for it. This was the beginning of a period in which belts were passed around, in an attempt to get wrestlers over, as opposed to first getting over, and then receiving the belt. If any of you get a chance, take a good look at KB’s review of all of the In Your Houses from Wrestlemania 14 on. Most of these events were absolutely terrible, and the wrestling you got on these shows tended to be uninteresting and repetitive. Also, when you really consider the wrestlers that were true main eventers during this point, it wasn’t the strongest makeup for wrestlers, and certainly no wrestlers that had the blend of size, speed, and savvy quite like Edge does. Let’s look at the names that most frequently populated the main event in Austin’s era:
The Undertaker- You’ll never hear me say too many bad things about The Undertaker. He is one of the all time greats, and never got the great run with the WWE title that he deserved. But this incarnation of The Undertaker was a poor excuse of a shell from his original form. And this Undertaker is certainly far worse of an actual wrestler, as compared to the version we have now. He had no basis for using submissions whatsoever, his conditioning was absolutely terrible, and his speed was nothing as compared to what we have today. The matches he had with Austin were nothing to write home about, and were certainly far worse than the matches he would have with Edge ten years later. The Undertaker you witnessed against Edge was more credible, and far more formidable than any version Austin faced. Besides that, The Undertaker was battling injuries, which became pretty evident by the time he took his absence in 1999.
Kane- If Vince had the balls to put Kane over The Undertaker at Wrestlemania 14, then perhaps I’d take him a bit more serious. Yes, the storyline was designed for Kane to lose at Wrestlemania, but it was the amount of jobbing Kane did to The Undertaker after that match. The Inferno match, his jobbing to Austin after one night of a title reign, and the way the WWE portrayed Kane after his one day reign, namely as the weaker, inferior brother to The Undertaker, makes me hesitant to take him seriously as a threat. Kane was also not the greatest of workers, and struggled in the ring. He was a one dimensional beast, and that one dimension was watered down in his frequent jobbing to The Undertaker.
Mankind- Ah, a great worker. Well, when one takes into consideration how few great workers were constantly in the main event scene from 1998-1999. Even then, most people assume Mankind/ Mick Foley was a jobber. He had few reigns with the title, but even Foley acknowledges that he was never going to be the standard bearer for The WWE, and that his reigns were more or less victory laps/ lifetime achievement awards. Not to mention that in the times that Foley did actually feud with Austin, he had become Dude Love. Now, I’m not sure on how we’re treating the multiple personalities of Mick Foley, but this was certainly the weakest of all of Foley’s incarnations, no matter how many times you analyze it. The only thing Dude Love ever accomplished in the WWE was a Tag Team Title run with Steve. A title run that started with HBK as Steve’s partner, and with Steve demanding he’d rather not have partner like Dude Love, as opposed to wrestling alone. That should speak volumes regarding how seriously Dude Love was taken. Nobody believed Dude could take the strap from Stone Cold, and the only times he looked even close was when he had Vince’s backing. The feud that Dude and Steve served for nothing more than to feed into Vince and Steve’s feud.
Now, you’re probably wondering why I haven’t included The Rock and Triple H into the matter. Quite simply, neither of these wrestlers were ready to become full fledged main eventers when Vince tried to present them as such in 1999. The Rock was getting pops, but it was nowhere near the pops he would receive in 2000 onwards. Was he over? Yes, he was, but he wasn’t exactly too convincing as a World Title threat until Stone Cold left to have surgery. As soon as Rocky’s program with Stone Cold ended after Backlash, he slid back down to the upper mid card, working matches with Triple H, Mr. Ass, Ken Shamrock, and other wrestlers such as them. Oh, and he started a buddy tag team with Mankind. Definitely mid card material, and definitely not ready yet for the main event, at least until Stone Cold’s departure. Triple H has a very similar story, as Vince desperately needed a main event heel that could work good matches with Steve. But by this time, Trips wasn’t exactly ready for the spotlight either, and wouldn’t be so until 2000, when, you guessed it, Stone Cold left to have neck surgery. It was probably for the best, anyway, seeing as Steve, by this point, simply couldn’t work that good of a match anymore. But even at this point, Trips simply couldn’t draw that decent of heel heat on his own. No, he needed something extra to put himself over, which was so generously given to him when Vince decided he would be the one to be Steph’s (kayfabe… err…
Husband. Up until that point, Triple H may have been working main event matches… But he wasn’t what I would consider main event capable. And hey, it’s probably for the best that I don’t include those two, because the fact is that when Vince tried to put Trips over as a main event heel, who was the first man he had do the job for Trips to start him with some major heel heat? [youtube]i5kYFnyl8OY[/youtube]
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Well, lookie here: Stone Cold jobbed to Triple H, in a period where he was nowhere near ready for the spotlight, and added just another wrestler that Stone Cold would wind up having multiple issues against.
Anyway, after Steve left, we began to see something very weird out of Vince McMahon… He required that his main event wrestlers, for the most part, had to put on… Dare I say it… Good matches? Yes, that was the case. After Steve left, The Rock and Triple H took over the reins to the future of the WWE. Not only were they able to put on excellent matches, but they were now ready to fill the void left by Steve, and become main eventers. They were finally ready to step out of the shadows, and become main eventers, themselves. And from there, Vince started to build other wrestlers similarly to how he built the Rock and Triple H. Namely, such as wrestlers like these….
And yet something funny happened here… While The Rock and Trips would wrestle these new potential stars, the main events that they put on were better than The Attitude Era’s. A match like The Rock VS. Chris Benoit is one of those hidden gems that if you really watch, you’d have to admit that it surely looked better than the matches that plagued the main event of The Attitude Era. Or even something like Chris Jericho and Triple H, The Undertaker and Kurt Angle, etc. You know why these matches were so much better than their Attitude counterparts.? Because Vince made a concerted effort to make sure that his main event wrestlers had the talent to wrestle one another, and put on good to great matches. Few will agree with me, but the WWE finally reaped the benefits of the seeds they sowed in The Attitude Era in 2000, when WWE’s profits couldn’t have been higher, and yet the WWE was able to put on wonderful matches that kept its fans satisfied. Even with its biggest star nowhere to be found.
And another superstar was early in the incubation phase, but would become quite a breakout star within this era. That man would be the Rated R Superstar, Edge.
Sure, his first matches in the spotlight were a bit spotty, but they certainly got his name out there. It made him recognizable to the audience, enough so that fans began to realize that once he slowed down his matches a bit, he’d become the future of the WWE. His matches with The Hardy’s, Dudley’s, etc. Were spoterrific to no end. But we still enjoyed them, and still marveled at the things these athletes could do. Within time, as soon as they learned to slow it down a bit, they would become superstars themselves.
And you know who was the first to learn to slow it down? Edge. He slowed it down enough to the point that people realized he was being groomed to superstardom. He was no longer wrestling in tag team ladder matches, but was wrestling names like Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, and other such wrestlers. And as time went on, he beat them. And then he beat them more. Sure, he’d still have his spotty matches, but he was the one to control them, and to lead everyone and prevent injuries. He was, more or less, the ring general for these matches. And his work would only get better and better until he hit his kayfabe peak, from 2006- Mid 2007.
Now, let’s look at some of those names that happened to be right there with him throughout that run in 2006-2007.
John Cena: I can’t do him justice on the fact that’s a great worker. If you want for an exact description, I’d suggest you go read SavageTaker’s post on why Cena is the best wrestler in the WWE today. He explains it so well, but I’ll try to add it all together. Cena is today’s Hogan, with the exception that Cena puts his best effort into every match that he does. The only difference between Hogan and Cena is that Cena works twice as hard as Hogan ever has. Otherwise, Cena is the top merchandise seller, the top face, and one of the best wrestlers within the company. A real fan understands just how good Cena is. Hogan can do just as much as Cena can, but he chose not to. It would appear that will never be the case for Cena, and that Cena will always be one of those go to workers for anything the WWE needs.
The Undertaker: I’ve already touched on this before, so I’m not going to go too much into detail. This Undertaker is flat out better than any version Austin ever faced, and may just be the best version of Taker ever. He’s more agile, he has a submission style to him, and he’s actually more imposing than he ever was before. Kayfabe wise, of course. This version of The Undertaker excels any version before him, and makes it flat out imposing to ever step in the ring with him.
HBK: Yes, the same guy who broke his back, and gave Austin nothing to work with in their Wrestlemania match. From a historical point, it was a good match. From a wrestling point, Shawn looked bloated and in so much pain. I almost had issues with rooting for Steve, just knowing how much pain Shawn was in. Simply put, that’s not the case now. Shawn is relatively healthy at this point, and is still the HBK of old. HBK’s matches, from a wrestling point, never seem to have a prime. For the most part, his matches are great, and he’s one of the all time bests the WWE has to offer.
Trips: This man just doesn’t seem to have kayfabe weak point either. His matches for the most part are good, and he seems to usually have a belt around his waist at all times. Admittedly, he was kept away from the title at Edge’s peak, but he was still prominent on television, and was a main eventer by every stretch of the means.
Randy Orton: In the same position, for the most part, with Edge. A very good wrestler, and much better than most of the wrestler’s you’ll find in the Attitude Era.
Chris Benoit: Seasoned veteran at this point, and still going extremely strong. Still just a good a worker as he’d ever been, and was coming off a recent run with The World Heavyweight Championship. Still the submission specialist, but this time as a main eventer, and still putting on magnificent wrestling matches.
RVD: Don’t tell you don’t miss this man’s work. A former WWE champion himself, and provided athleticism that just wasn’t found too often in the main eventers of the Attitude Era. Still massively over. Yes, he would wind up in ECW, but he also was built extremely well for his kayfabe height, even beating the kayfabe super strong Cena.
Kurt Angle: Wasn’t around too long, but when he was, could still put on magnificent matches. Very strong main eventer, and wrestler, as well.
Rey Mysterio: A shell of his former self? I guess you could look at him that way. Or, you could look at him as a former World champion that, even with his weak knees, was still better than half of the workers, if not most of them, in The Attitude Era during Steve’s run.
Kane: A tad bit of a weaker kayfabe powerful superstar, but a better wrestler than he use to be, and was actually a viable main eventer. This was before The WWE jobbed him into oblivion. This version of Kane actually still meant something, as opposed to the Kane you see now.
Batista: Good worker? Eh… Admittedly, not so much. A viable main eventer, and capable of holding his own in a match? Yes, absolutely.
So you see, this version of the main event scene has many more good to great to excellent workers within its confines. It wasn’t simply placed upon three or four people to hold the workload. All of these wrestlers could be counted on to provide main event caliber matches, and to still get pretty much over. Is the WWE in a lull at this point? Yes, but that has absolutely nothing to do with quality of the wrestling matches. It stems, more or less, from the poor booking, as the wrestling is just as good as it’s ever been, and certainly better than it was in The Attitude Era.
And the last time I checked, this was a wrestling match, in which the best wrestler wins.
That distinction goes to Edge.
It sure is. PROFESSIONAL wrestling. Not shoot wrestling, not amateur wrestling, not MMA, pro wrestling. And you CANNOT even debate that Edge has been a better professional wrestler, because he was a better pro wrestler then he would be drawing like Austin wouldn't he?
In bascially every way a pro wrestler can. Last time I checked the point of pro wrestling was to make money. You think any wrestling promotion on Earth would exist otherwise?
That's not to say technical wrestling ability isn't valued, because of course it is. It's a craft and like any craft some are going to be better then others. But this isn't a "Who Knows the most moves?" contest, now is it? It's a pro wrestling match. If you want to judge these contests as though these were legit shoot fights, be my guest, but don't even attempt to argue with me using that logic, because it's foolish.
I didn't realize that Triple H was a technical specialist.
Are you kidding me? That fight was EXTREMELY even until the end. Bret Hart barely won that match, maybe you should go back and look at it again.
That's so unfair it's ridiculious. You're judging the man on two matches that he lost while he was still a midcarder against a main eventer? On what planet does that resemble a fair judgment? I'm sure if I wanted to I could go and find countless main eventers that Edge lost to as a midcarder, would it be fair for me to judge him by that?
The fact that Austin was even given those matches and that he put up such a good fight in both matches as a midcarder against a well-established multiple time World Champion main eventer speaks volumes for Austin actually.
Wow. Really? You're going to bring up THAT match to further your cause? Apparently you don't remember anything about that match.
A) Austin had Jericho tapping out to his own finisher within 10 minutes, but the ref was knocked out.
B) Booker T then proceeded to come out and lay Austin out with the title belt.
You know damn well that Austin was screwed by outside interference in that match. So nice try, but that was an absolutely awful match choice to use to defend your argument.
So your argument for why Edge should beat Austin is that Edge has fared well against Kurt Angle and Bret Hart? Not sure how that one works.
You are aware that Austin had a career before 1996 right? During his WCW days Austin commonly used a lot of high-flyer/agile type moves in the ring. He was in a tag team with freaking Brian Pillman for christ's sake.
Seemed to work fine for him when he was dominating the WWE for nearly 3 years night in and night out.
I'm done with arguing this kayfabe business with you guys. If you guys want to pretend wrestling is real and that the best technical wrestler always wins, be my guest. I'll continue judging these contests based on reality. Jesus Christ, when did this tournament become the "Best Technical Wrestler" contest? Because thats exactly how you're judging it.
PS: Edge sure looked great tonight on RAW didn't he?
[youtube]GnDOx8snJ1Y[/youtube]
I'd love for you to focus on between 22 seconds and 1 one minute and 7 seconds. Xfearbefore, we've been through this zillions of times, and the fact is, we're never going to come to agreeance with this. And quite frankly, I don't need for you to agree with me. No, no, not at all.... It takes half of the fun out of it. We're going to be doing battle like this for a long, long, long time to come, xfearbefore. And I love it. Anyway, onto the topic at hand.
Well, yes, and no, I suppose, on all accounts of what you say. Yes, this isn't MMA, but it's not a bar fight, either. It takes technical skill to make this a wrestling match. Something that, quite frankly, I feel a Stone Cold that is in his prime is extremely lacking. If this were a bar room brawl, I'd give a lot more leeway to your beliefs. But it's not, and I don't.
As for drawing like Austin, again, another thing we'll disagree with for years to come. You feel drawing power plays a role in this tournament. And I, for one, don't. No, not at all. Drawing power puts butts in the seats, xfearbefore. But it doesn't decide the better wrestler.
Sigh.... Again, with that drawing argument. Look, we're never going to come to agreeance on it. You think I'm wrong, and I feel the exact same. However, it's like I've said before; drawing people doesn't decide who wins. No, if that were the case, Hulk Hogan would have gone undefeated, and admittedly, so would Stone Cold. But they didn't. And the heels needs wins, otherwise that drawing power for the face is kinda tarnished. Wrestling fans don't want the predictable, xfearbefore. Sometimes, the heel's gotta win. Like right now.
Well, to some of an extent again, yes and no. Yes, this isn't a "who knows more moves" contest. But that does play some sort of role in determining the winner, and it would be foolish to argue otherwise. And, as I've said, the discrepancy is far too wide in this contest.
He's much better at submissions than you give him credit for. But hey, I will say this; you at least acknowledge that Stone Cold Steve Austin has lost before, which is more than any Austin backer will do. I respect that. Again, though, Trips wasn't exactly the best choice, as Triple H and Edge are pretty similar in character. Both were opportunists. Both did whatever they could to reach the top. Both "slept" to the top, if you will. So you may want to choose someone else. Kurt Angle's a nice choice.
I've looked it over many times. Steve was beaten to a bloody pulp, just like Bret promised. And he passed out. And?
This was about the point he was becoming a main eventer, so don't play that card with me. Two months later he received a title shot, and it wasn't his first. He was getting pushed to the main event at about this point, xfearbefore.
Oh, sure, go on ahead with that, I don't mind. Because I understand that a loss is a loss. You can't put it any other way.
To some extent, yes. Bret and Steve had chemistry, so they ran with it. I'm not denying he didn't deserve it. Again, a loss is a loss.
I do. Jericho wouldn't have you do any less.
Really? Well, that's too bad, xfearbefore. You don't see me complaining on how CM Punk cashed in his MITB on Edge, do you? Well no, because it's already in the record books, and it can't be changed. And it wasn't that he lost to Jericho. It's how Austin had every advantage before that match. Jericho had just finished a match with The Rock. Literally no time for a break. And the Jericho/Rock match was pretty excruciating. So why did it even come down to interference?
And Austin has been screwed many a time before. Still is a loss.
1. I didn't mean Hart, though I saw why you feel I lumped in Hart. Second, my point is that Edge went hold for hold with these men. And came out on top. Something Austin has not done.
...... you really wanna use THAT Austin, x? I mean, that's the Austin we're throwing into the ring with Edge?
Ok, we'll use that guy. I don't see what purpose it serves you, but we will. This is the man that lost in thirty five seconds to Hacksaw Jim Duggan. That's right, this guy.....
Are you sure you want to use that Steve Austin?
Well yeah, because for the most part, he fought brawlers just like him. The Rock is the exception, which I give him credit for, but Edge is not like that Edge character. No, Edge is more like Triple H, in very many ways. Same type of mental build. Same type of ruthless nature. Same type of gimmick.
How'd that work for Steve in his career?
Meh, it happens. Besides, this isn't his kayfabe peak. You seem confused to even which Steve Austin you're going to use in this match.
Just please, don't use your "Hollywood Blonde" version of Steve. I beg of you.
TheOneBigWill
[This Space for Rent]
Edge? Seriously....EDGE????
Edge is allllways in the right place at the right time...always takes advantage of his opponents shortcomings...always does what needs to be done. Ahhhhh...that reminds me of someone else in WWE history:
Yes. Crash Holly. Crash Holly was the ORIGINAL Ultimate Opportunist, and he took the 24/7 rule of the Hardcore Title to his full advantage. He won when the odds were stacked against him, when he shouldn't have, and when he wasn't even involved in the match.
Stone Cold Steve Austin? He did the same thing...only he had entire groups against him. At Mania XIV...Vince didn't want Austin as champ, and he had pitted all of D-X AND Mike Tyson against him....Austin won the title. Then at Over the Edge: IYH...Vince had Foley hand-selected to be his next champ pitting him in a No-DQ match against Austin with himself as referee, as well as the Stooges involved in key roles. Austin STILL won. Fast forward to Breakdown: IYH...it took two freaking monsters who were prohibited from fighting each other in a virtual handicap match to finally get the belt off of Austin for more than a night. And then, Vince had some ELABORATE master plan, stacking the odds against Austin so he would never be champ again...and he overcame every obstacle one way or another to be champ again.
Edge, on the other hand...married the GM of his show so he could be put in situations where he could "overcome the odds." Some odds, eh?
Furthermore, it doesn't even really matter. It's a straight up match, and the heel usually always needs a gimmick to win. There's no gimmick here (except for the fact that it's "Extreme Rules"...but that's not a gimmick in ECW-land...that's business as usual), so in reality...major advantage for Austin.
In conclusion: when you are making your selection, please take into consideration all of the above and more, particularly that Austin revolutionized the business in a way that no one else had done (nWo did NOT revolutionize the way Austin did...Austin = antihero) and that he headlined Wrestlemania 3 times in an era where there was ONE world title belt. That's a solid vote in my estimation. A vote fore Edge? Well, I'm not sure how you could sleep at night voting for a glorified Crash Holly...
Ricky, a lot of what you said goes without deserving any type of credit because you feel the need to lower yourself in claiming Edge is nothing more than a mid-card, jobber, who's biggest claim was a hardcore title that was won by individuals such as, but not limited to; a ****e, Patterson & Brisco, and an individual named "null" according to wwe.comcom's records.
The fact is, you disgust me. For years, I thought you were actually a decent poster. But the truth is, if Steve Austin is your all-time favorite, or even a remote favorite enough to back in this tournament like you claim to be doing - I'm sure you could come up with something legit in why Austin should win, instead of comparing his opponent to a second-rate hack like Crash Holly.
So for that reason, whatever you say truly doesn't mean crap to me anymore. I haven't once bad mouthed or claimed any of Edge's opponent's weren't what I couldn't prove they were. Needless to say, I've never felt the need to run scared in trying to make people think something so stupid as this entire post is made out to be.
When you learn how to actually make something worth reading - let me know, until then - gain whatever votes you can from morons and idiots willing to believe it. Because I can still fully back up every bit of why Edge is the true pick in this tournament.
I love how you only show half of the story. Yeah, Edge has lost at Wrestlemania. But he wasn't pinned. He, Edge lost in the opening Elimination Chamber.. but won the Main Event version. Yeah, Edge lost a ladder match to a guy who's also claimed to be a master of ladder matches.
And as for big match wins.. the guy's won NINE World Championships, and counting. Wouldn't you consider every Heavyweight Championship match, to be a "big match" type environment?
He held an undefeated streak at Wrestlemania for 5 straight victories. Not including the Undertaker, that's arguably the second best streak Mania has ever seen.
Yeah,
cause Edge hasn't won a match against a hometown favorite, in their hometown - with popularity just as large as Austin, when the match was a regular match - or with a large disadvantage against Edge.Oh, you know, like say for example when the rules stated if Edge got DQ'd or counted out, he'd still lose the title.. and he found a way to win, by finding an opportunity and taking it.
Yeah, Sly, he's never done that - has he..
Okay, this is the last straw - this exact bit is what I'm sick and tired of. PROVE IT!
You say this crap, like Austin was the only individual carrying the entire Company on his back. Bullshit Sly, and you know it. If Austin revolutionized the business.. then Edge is the 3rd greatest World Heavyweight Champion in Wrestling history - because he's behind only Ric Flair and Triple H for as many reigns as Champion.
Austin didn't single handedly revolutionize shit.. he helped, just like Edge has helped. Austin didn't revolutionize anything alone though, so quit making it sound like he did. This argument is so beneath you, it's disgusting and revolting.
I thought you were some type of good debater, Sly? Is this all you have? If it is, just stop now.
Maybe you should.. at least then you wouldn't of just came in here, and looked like a lot less than what I ever thought you were.
Yeah, you know what's truly astounding, Ricky? The fact that roughly 60 people seem to believe falsely that because Austin sold a lot of t-shirts, and cut some decent promos - that he's unbeatable against a guy who's beaten just as many top named Superstars, if not more, than he has.
And just out of shear curiosity - why should I take into account anything you said before? Assuming that would be the ******ed post about Crash Holly, you know - a guy that isn't even remotely in this match-up. A guy you have to use, because you're scared shitless that Edge is winning by such a large margin right now, you feel the need to make him seen as something you and I both know he's not.
Once again, he went 5-0 at Wrestlemania, before losing by pinfall to the Undertaker, and being taken out of the MITB match, and the odd man out (not being pinned) at this year's version.
Yeah.. 5-1-2 is more like it.
Winning NINE Heavyweight Championships, regardless of length, is a pretty big accomplishment. One Austin's never done, mind you.
Edge's 9 titles > Austin's longer reigns.
This tournament bounces in and out of Kayfabe it's so ridiculous. And the same statement you just said against someone voting for Edge, I could also use against Austin.
Say for example, all the people (ie. you, included) who claim because Austin sold a ton of t-shirts and made movies and is a recognizable name because of it -- he should win. Riiiggghhtt..
So, which one of these are you today..
Maybe he isn't, but I am. And unlike almost (excluding xfear, only) every single Austin supporter - I've pointed out both individual's accomplishments.. and explained in great detail why Edge should, could, and would win.
You're welcome.
VOTE EDGE
Ask an average person who Stone Cold Steve Austin is, they will tell you that "he's that badass wrestler from the 90s". Ask them who Edge is, they'll say, "I dunno, the guy from U2?".
Obviously that's a very glib argument. But the general success of Austin during his era, a greater era for pro wrestling, has a lot to play in this match, it would be ridiculous to argue against that. At the end of the day Edge did join WWF during that Era, if he was all these things better than Stone Cold he would have risen through the ranks quicker. And fair play to Edge for playing his dues, but if one man is a lot more successful when they are both in the same Fed at the same time this should work in that man's favour.
At the end of the day, when you think of people like the Rock and Stone Cold, they have always been booked stronger than people these days (maybe except HHH). If the Rock or Stone Cold turned up on Raw this week you would expect them to beat the senses out of most of the current roster, even years removed from the industry. People who are booked strongly today still don't come across as strong as people who were booked strongly back then.
As for the argument that Edges title wins are better than Austins reigns. Remember how Austin lost some of his titles, things like a glorified handicap match vs Kane and Undertaker. Whereas Edge has won his by beating a man post gruelling match (twice), with interference from 4 people (at least once), when someone interfered to screw the champion, sometimes with no real explanation (twice), being entered into a triple threat match 20 mins in (x1), and by using doppelgangers(x1).
Austin was THE man. Edge was the man who "married" a pig to get ahead.
Vote Austin.
Obviously that's a very glib argument. But the general success of Austin during his era, a greater era for pro wrestling, has a lot to play in this match, it would be ridiculous to argue against that. At the end of the day Edge did join WWF during that Era, if he was all these things better than Stone Cold he would have risen through the ranks quicker. And fair play to Edge for playing his dues, but if one man is a lot more successful when they are both in the same Fed at the same time this should work in that man's favour.
At the end of the day, when you think of people like the Rock and Stone Cold, they have always been booked stronger than people these days (maybe except HHH). If the Rock or Stone Cold turned up on Raw this week you would expect them to beat the senses out of most of the current roster, even years removed from the industry. People who are booked strongly today still don't come across as strong as people who were booked strongly back then.
As for the argument that Edges title wins are better than Austins reigns. Remember how Austin lost some of his titles, things like a glorified handicap match vs Kane and Undertaker. Whereas Edge has won his by beating a man post gruelling match (twice), with interference from 4 people (at least once), when someone interfered to screw the champion, sometimes with no real explanation (twice), being entered into a triple threat match 20 mins in (x1), and by using doppelgangers(x1).
Austin was THE man. Edge was the man who "married" a pig to get ahead.
Vote Austin.
TheOneBigWill
[This Space for Rent]
Uhm, I doubt it. They might say "Steve Austin? The Million Dollar Man from the television show?" And I'd say "No, the Pro Wrestler, you know him?" And I'd likely get a reply of "Oh, yeah I've heard of him. What about him?"
Because most random people who don't watch Wrestling in the first place - wouldn't fricken call him a badass.
Nice try though.As for Edge, of course I'd never say people would know him. Because he hasn't been in any movies, (except a cameo in Highlander: End Game) much less a starring role in a movie that; like the rest of Wrestling's movies, BOMBED BIG TIME.
And yet I have been.. strange.
Are you seriously asking why Edge, just debuting didn't just up and defeat Steve Austin?! I don't know if this is you accidentally claiming Austin would be a big enough loser, to drop matches to people who debuted - or if this is you trying to make a valid point.So let me ask you this.. if Austin was such a big name, why'd Bischoff fire him? Why'd he lose more than anything else in E.C.W? Why was he never a Heavyweight Champion in W.C.W??
It took Austin TWELVE YEARS to do something meaningful. It took Edge, roughly EIGHT YEARS.. that's almost half the time.
Did you just say if they were both in their prime, at the same time, it'd work in Edge's favor for paying his dues?Maybe that's because they had bigger ego's back then, and not as much Main Event talent.
No, I actually wouldn't. I'd expect the Rock to cut a promo on the top heel - making pie references. And I'd expect Austin to do what he does best.
Show up, collect a check, cut a half assed promo by saying "What?" a lot, then drinking beer and leaving. He might, might stun Santino again though.
Thats because there are way more Main Eventers in today's W.W.E, than there were in Yesteryear's.
Uhm, he was a heel who's gimmick and "role" made doing all of that what he was suppose to do.
So you're now blaming Edge for being what he was meant to be, to the very best of it all?
Yeah.. cause, you know.. Edge's marriage to Vickie won him the MITB, and several World titles long before he ever started the storyline with her.
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