Who's The Better Wrestler? Bryan Danielson or John Cena?

[X]

After endless debate with a certain newly registered poster who will go unnamed on this YouTube page HERE, this guy remains convinced that John Cena is a better wrestler then Bryan Danielson.

I know, the question is absolutely ludicrous and really doesn't even warrant an answer it's so stupid, but for the sake of argument, I'm posting it and lets see if he can't try and prove some of us wrong.

For those that have never seen Bryan Danielson wrestle, here is a match:

Bryan Danielson vs. KENTA

And to be fair, heres a Cena match

John Cena vs. Edge vs. Triple H

It's pretty obvious to me and any other intelligent wrestling fan that Danielson runs circles around Cena as a wrestler, but let's do this just for some fun.

You decide who the better wrestler is.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

What the hell are you on about. Cena's the best thing to happen to wrestling since Hogan.

Obviously I'm joking. But I can see why Cena has his fans. He's not that bad in my opinion. Compare the Ultimate Hogan Anthologhy they brought out, to a potential Cena Anthology.

While it's never Cena's doing that he has good match's. He does frequently have them. The thing with Cena is he's aware of the fact he's complete shit. So he does the decent thing and allows himself to be carried. He's also not a block of wood like Batista.

But to compare Cena with Danielson is stupid. Brian is possibly the greatest active wrestler going. Nobody other than a complete knob would argue differently.

Now who's better/worse, Hogan/Cena now that's a debate.

 

[Big Ace]

^That would cause some great discussion. Hogan would be voted worse to due the n00bs that like Cena though.

like Jake said, you can't compare these two. Danielson is THE man right now. John Cena? WWE Champion? Please. He should lose the Marine gimmick and get a ''Moneymaker'' gimmick. That would actually make everything real, since Cena is ''the next big thing'' We all know what happened to the last ''Next Big Thing'' though.

I've seen tapes of Danielson and he's not only better than John Cena, but he's also more talented than 90% of the WWE Roster. When people bring up this crap, it's a disgrace. They're either 12 years old and haven't seen or heard of anything of Wrestling outside of WWE, or they're just idiots. Danielson was trained by Shawn Michaels. Michaels also trained Kendrick and Cade, and both of them are showing more potential than Cena.

The bottomline is, the WWE would love to have Danielson. Unfortunately, just like half of their lower mid-carders, he'd be used the wrong way. Danielson has a lot of charisma, but he just wouldn't fit in WWE.

 

[X]

I know it's a crazy question but this slyfox guy just won't give it up, he has an excuse for everything and continues to call John Cena a better wrestler than Bryan Danielson--it really pisses me off that someone can be that thickheaded. This is of course coming from the same guy who said Ric Flair isn't a good wrestler, but I would just really like for the guy to present his argument here on this board. He keeps telling me that if you ask 99% of people who's better, Cena or Danielson, that they'll say Cena. This is to prove him wrong.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Well Flair is a shit wrestler now, he had it all in the 80's now he just makes me sad. And if you asked WZ posters under 10 posts and kid's who's the better wrestler. You know what they'll say?

Danielson?

Did you catch the guy's age? Or maybe he's just a WWE mark. Perhaps he only enhjoys the WWE style. And perhaps his brain cant handle more than 20 minute match's.

 

[X]

The guy is in his twenties or thirties I believe because he said he was around in the NWA territories days. He's very intelligent, I'll give him that, and he knows his wrestling history.

He just knows jackshit about wrestling ability.

 

[Takerrules]

Who's Bryan Danielson?

 

[wrestler90]

What an idiot. Its almost like wwe has brainwashed all their fans into thinking that cenas a good wrestler and that lashley is good on the mic. Why cant all fans be internet smarks?!?!?!?!?



EDIT: Wow danielson made cena look godd. Kudos

 

[Slyfox696]

Well, allow myself to introduce...myself.

First of all, I am the new member being discussed. Second of all, I want to point this out.

After endless debate with a certain newly registered poster who will go unnamed on this YouTube page

I know it's a crazy question but this slyfox guy just won't give it up

I would think that most people would read your second quote and figure out who I am, but that is fine. I have no problem with admitting this.


I also want to say that this poll being created was my idea. I created this on another forum I posted on, and currently the poll stands at 54 votes for Danielson and 40 votes for Cena. And considering how smark heavy most wrestling forums tend to be, I think the fact that John Cena has received 38% of the vote and Danielson has received 50% of the vote (there were two other options for people who didn't want to compare), speaks very highly of Cena's work.

Furthermore, I want to point out that the initial introduction to the topic is completely biased and insinuates that it is ludicrous to assume Cena is the better wrestler. I request that the threadstarter try to revise his initial post or two to present an unfair introduction to the thread. For example...here is how I did it.

Simple question. Who is the better professional wrestler and why do you think so? Keep in mind, I am not referring strictly to in-ring skills, but to all the attributes of what makes a great wrestler, which includes off-screen stuff as well.

So, who is the better professional wrestler? Bryan Danielson or John Cena.




Now, obviously this could be quite a touchy subject as both men elicit strong reactions from many people. Please try and keep the debate (which I realize may be heated) at the very least civil, and please post relevant posts and not just "Cena sucks because Vince is shoving him down our throats" or "Danielson sucks because ROH is nothing but garbage". Debate intelligently.

Now, obviously, I cannot force anyone to change their post, and it is merely a request, but I think it causes a question in the validity of said poll for the creater of the poll (who is also a mod, from my understanding), to begin it by claiming it is ludicrous to vote for Cena. But, that is only a recommendation. Obviously, I did not create this poll, so take it for what it's worth. I just think it would help to strengthen the validity of this poll.

Now, why do I think John Cena is a professional wrestler?

For me personally, Cena puts on very good matches, is a good actor (wrestling, not movie), has promo versatility and obviously works hard in and out of the ring and loves the business. Combine that with the fact that he makes money and is a MUCH bigger draw than Danielson, my vote goes to Cena.

Remember, being a great professional wrestler is not just about what happens inside the ring. It includes outside of the ring stuff as well, and also off the camera stuff. Stuff like moneymaking and drawing cannot be ignored when gauging the quality of a professional wrestler. Because, in the end, the wrestling business is all about making money. If a wrestling company does not make money, they don't exist. So, making money is part of what makes a good professional wrestler as well.

So, combine the fact that Cena is very clearly a bigger moneymaker than Danielson, and his out of ring, on-camera ability is good, and the fact that his in-ring ability, while probably not as good as Danielson's, but still good nonetheless, says to me that Cena is a better professional wrestler.


On a side note, I realize that I have 5 posts, but I assure you, I am not trolling. On the other forums I post at, I have over 3000 posts since joining in June of 2006, without one warning, and have several rep bars. I do not know if linking or even mentioning the name of that forum is allowed here, so I will not do that, unless informed I may do so. However, if you go to the Youtube video that is provided in the opening post, you can find me, and I mention the forum there.

Did you catch the guy's age? Or maybe he's just a WWE mark. Perhaps he only enhjoys the WWE style. And perhaps his brain cant handle more than 20 minute match's.

Not true. I actually prefer TNA over the WWE, and have so since I first started TNA. I also enjoyed, as strange as it may seem, the WCW more in the early 90s, the WWF more in the mid 90s (NWO reign), and WCW more in the last 90s until they closed.

I also have a small collection of puroresu matches, of which I have been told by a VERY knowledgeable poster on the subject, are some of the top puro matches of the 1990s. I also enjoy watching them as well.

Also, I am 22 years old.
Point being, it is not the WWE style I enjoy. I enjoy all styles. Whether it be technical, lucha, brawling (like Cena), or whatever else.

The guy is in his twenties or thirties I believe because he said he was around in the NWA territories days. He's very intelligent, I'll give him that, and he knows his wrestling history.

I do appreciate the compliment, and I must say that you are definitely more of a challenge than I thought you were to debate against lol. Kudos to you as well.


On a side note: I realize that I registered on this forum in less than optimal conditions, considering I had one of the mods completely pissed off at me before I even joined. Generally, that is not a good thing. However, it is debate nothing more. I love to argue and debate, and do so with everything I have, but it is nothing personal.

[/end sucking up ]

 

[X]

I'm sorry if the first post seems a bit biased slyfox, but the question generally warrants that reaction. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but the core group of posters at these forums usually have always agreed that Cena is of mid-card ability at best, thats why I posed it in such a biased way.

But once again I have to disagree strongly. Making money is not part of the equation when you're debating people's ability as a wrestler. Not as a TV star, or a merch seller, or a guy who sells out arenas, the question is who has a larger move set, has put on better matches consistently, and is all around much more smooth in the ring. That has to go to Danielson and I'm not sure how anyone can debate that if they have seen the work of both men. Cena is a good brawler, I give him that, but outside of brawling he is completely lost. Austin, another big brawler you mentioned previously, had already built a reputation on his solid in ring work and technical prowess, and in his beginning phase of his WWF career he was very technical, until he broke his neck.

When you watch a Bryan Danielson match, you think to yourself "Holy shit, how is he able to do that? I've never seen that done, ever!". When Cena wrestles you think "I've seen all of these moves three hundred times before, done much better and this man can do things that really, anyone could do."

Atleast thats just what I think. I'll give Cena credit due where he deserves it, I won't deny he has had a few good matches, but nothing even on the same scale as the quality of matches that a guy like Danielson delivers. There may only be 400 people in that bingo hall, but every one is on their feet screaming "HOLY SHIT" at the amazing things the man does in the ring. When Cena wrestles in front of 80,000 people he gets a reaction of half boos and half cheers, and the only chant ever being started is something like "Cena!" or "Go Cena!". I know it doesn't seem like a very large thing, but smarks are some of the hardest to please wresting fans on the planet. If a guy like Danielson pleases them in that bingo hall with no exposure on television at all, while they are yawning and half asleep during a Cena match, that says something to me. Granted, smarks are not the be-all and end-all of wrestling, but nevertheless you have to work hard to please them.

Cena has done minimal work at best. Small ammount of training, some feeling out time in OVW, instantly put into midcard scene, goes up to main event scene within a year, and is dominating it ever since. What has he done to earn that spot? Have the right look? Whereas Cena gets over on his character, Danielson gets over on his ability as a WRESTLER.

And let's not forget what the word wrestler means: to wrestle. Not to entertain, not to make money, not to sell out arenas. To wrestle with skill. Something I think Danielson has loads of, while Cena has limited of.

Sorry for all the insults on YouTube slyfox, thats generally where I go to vent out all the anger---can't exactly flame here can I?

 

[Shocky]

Slyfox, first of all, props on you for showing up and handling your side of things with class. It's not often a guy comes in here and sticks up for himself without throwing around mindless insults and random gibberish, Post here more often.

Obviously there is no comparison on who the better wrestler is, it's Danielson by a New York Mile. The guy is insane in the ring. That being said, the money maker aspect of the conversation. It's not a Debate, Cena by far. The real question that woudl be asked is.... If Danielson was given the multimedia machine that was the WWE, and given the same exposure, would he be bigger then John Cena?

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm sorry if the first post seems a bit biased slyfox, but the question generally warrants that reaction. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but the core group of posters at these forums usually have always agreed that Cena is of mid-card ability at best, thats why I posed it in such a biased way.

It may warrant that reaction from you, but you cannot deny that it COULD change the perception of anyone who might be undecided before coming into the thread. That's all I'm saying. I think my opening post was as objective as possible. But, as I said, you started the poll, and I can't change your post. And, since you're a mod, I guess that just means I'm SOL huh?

But once again I have to disagree strongly. Making money is not part of the equation when you're debating people's ability as a wrestler. Not as a TV star, or a merch seller, or a guy who sells out arenas, the question is who has a larger move set, has put on better matches consistently, and is all around much more smooth in the ring. That has to go to Danielson and I'm not sure how anyone can debate that if they have seen the work of both men. Cena is a good brawler, I give him that, but outside of brawling he is completely lost. Austin, another big brawler you mentioned previously, had already built a reputation on his solid in ring work and technical prowess, and in his beginning phase of his WWF career he was very technical, until he broke his neck.

Well, to be fair, the wording of your thread title is different than what I posted. Because there is a difference between saying "wrestler" and "professional wrestler". I don't deny that Danielson is probably the better in-ring talent, never have. But, when you talk about professional wrestling as a whole, in-ring talent is only part of the equation.

Atleast thats just what I think. I'll give Cena credit due where he deserves it, I won't deny he has had a few good matches, but nothing even on the same scale as the quality of matches that a guy like Danielson delivers. There may only be 400 people in that bingo hall, but every one is on their feet screaming "HOLY SHIT" at the amazing things the man does in the ring. When Cena wrestles in front of 80,000 people he gets a reaction of half boos and half cheers, and the only chant ever being started is something like "Cena!" or "Go Cena!". I know it doesn't seem like a very large thing, but smarks are some of the hardest to please wresting fans on the planet. If a guy like Danielson pleases them in that bingo hall with no exposure on television at all, while they are yawning and half asleep during a Cena match, that says something to me. Granted, smarks are not the be-all and end-all of wrestling, but nevertheless you have to work hard to please them.

I want to comment on the bold. Are smarks REALLY that hard to please? It seems to me, not really. First of all, Delirious, a man who dresses as a lizard ( who also lives in the same town I do), from what I understand is considered over with the ROH crowd. Additionally, there seems to be this smark notion, that any man who is over 6'3" tall must be a walking stiff and incapable of working a good match. I mean, look at all the smark darlings over the last couple of years. CM Punk, Samoa Joe, Bryan Danielson, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Fit Finlay, RVD, AJ Styles, Chris Daniels, etc. etc...do any of them reach 6 foot 2 inches? Can any of them bench press a gnat (obviously they can, but they're not considered strong guys amongst all wrestlers).

Also, who in ROH is considered talentless? I admit I don't watch enough of it to know who ROH fans consider to be worthless. So, who in ROH is considered untalented and unworthy of holding a position in the company?

I'm not so certain smarks are quite as hard to please as you say they are.

And let's not forget what the word wrestler means: to wrestle. Not to entertain, not to make money, not to sell out arenas. To wrestle with skill. Something I think Danielson has loads of, while Cena has limited of.

Like I said, there is a difference in "wrestler" and "professional wrestler". They mean two totally different things. I agree that Danielson is the better in-ring worker, but I stand by Cena being the better professional wrestler.

Sorry for all the insults on YouTube slyfox, thats generally where I go to vent out all the anger---can't exactly flame here can I?

It's not big deal. I know exactly what you mean, and did the same thing myself.

With that being said, I look forward to our next flaming encounter...wait, that doesn't sound right...

 

[pugsley88]

stupid question

 

[Slyfox696]

Slyfox, first of all, props on you for showing up and handling your side of things with class. It's not often a guy comes in here and sticks up for himself without throwing around mindless insults and random gibberish, Post here more often.

Obviously there is no comparison on who the better wrestler is, it's Danielson by a New York Mile. The guy is insane in the ring. That being said, the money maker aspect of the conversation. It's not a Debate, Cena by far. The real question that woudl be asked is.... If Danielson was given the multimedia machine that was the WWE, and given the same exposure, would he be bigger then John Cena?

Thanks. I do plan on posting here more often, which is kind of funny because it's not often a person can say that they actually bring people to their forums by having a flame war with them. But hey, it worked for me lol!

And, that really is the biggest question. Could Danielson do what Cena is doing if given the same opportunity? And, I'm just not sure how he could. Americans traditionally like the big men. The four greatest draws in North American wrestling history are Andre, Hogan, Austin and Rock. Austin is the smallest of the four at 6'2" and 250 pounds. You look at boxing, and the cream of the crop, traditionally has always been the heavyweights. The Joe Louis, or Rocky Marciano, or Joe Frazier or Muhammed Ali, or even guys like Mike Tyson, the big men are what people traditionally want to see. You watch professional sports and people want to see the biggest and strongest guys go at it (like the NBA or NFL). UFC is really the only company to not really follow suit, as the lighter weight divisions seem to be as big of a draw as the heavyweight division, if not more so. But, UFC has only really experienced one boom period, and have only been around for a little over a decade. Time will tell on them.

With that being said, I'm not sure that Danielson could do what Cena is. Could Cena put on the technical matches that AmDrag does? Probably not. But I would wager that Cena could do better at putting on great matches, than Danielson could do as being a big draw and focal point of a worldwide company for three years. Because remember, putting on a technical match is only one style of a match. There are plenty of wrestling styles, including brawling, which I think Cena does a very good job with.

And, since that is part of what being a good "professional wrestler" is about, I have to give the nod to Cena, with all due respect to Danielson.

 

[Bernkastel]

My opinion on John Cena has never changed ever since he debuted. I can say that I'm not a fan of his, but I don't hate him either. I can see that John draws money for the company so I can see why WWE would choose to keep him as their champ because he appeals to little kids, and aren't they their biggest market right now? I now Cena as a ton of passion for this business and I respect him for that, in fact I see a lot of the same Similarities in John's professionalism as I see in My favorite wrestler, Kane, so I often refer back to Cena when I talk about Kane.

On the issue of Danielson vs Cena, I have never really been a fan of John's in ring work, I can say that his in ring skills are his weakest point as a superstar. But I can respect him for his professionalism and the popularity and the money he makes for the company. On the other hand, Danielson is a phenomenal wrestler who can immediately catch any wrestling fan's attention. And also from what I hear and from what I've read, Danielson is very professional and presents himself in a respectable light as well. IMO, its really hard to determine who is better out of the two, because while John sucks in the ring, he makes up for it with his ability to make money and be a marketable tool for WWE. Danielson's weak point is his popularity. He is no where near as popular as Cena, but the fans that he does have stay loyal to him.

I think that its really a pick your pleasure, IMO I prefer Danielson, but thats because I prefer the fast paced wrestling matches that Danielson is known to produce. I can also understand why someone would prefer Cena, because despite what some people may think about him, Cena is actually really good about pumping up the crowd for each match. Granted his moveset is limited and he will make the occasional in ring mistake, the fans get behind Cena because he makes them want to rally him and want to cheer for him. That, IMO is one of Cena's strongest qualities and one of the reasons why WWE keeps him as champion.

 

[RVDgurl]

This cannot be a real question. Did anyone else notice that there are actually 2 people who voted for Cena?!? Hopefully it was an honest mistake...

 

[Slyfox696]

This cannot be a real question. Did anyone else notice that there are actually 2 people who voted for Cena?!? Hopefully it was an honest mistake...

It is not a mistake. I voted for Cena, because I think he truly is the better professional wrestler.

I want to repost what I read once about this very subject.

Hmmm, Lets see... This is a tough decision.

On one hand you have a guy that has headlined 3 consecutive Wrestlemania's (maineventing the last 2) has captured the WWE Title on several occasions & dominated the title scene during the past 3 years, all while selling massive amounts of merchandise & starring in his own feature film, not to mention appearing in televison commercials & releasing a rap album.

Then you have a man whom is not only small in stature, but also in name value. He has healined shows that 99.99% of wrestling fans have never heard of & has performed before audiences that averaged in the hundreds. While he does not have any PPV matches to his credit, he does however have an impressive collection of 5 star classics making the rounds on youtube.

I'll give Cena the slight nod here.

Now, while that is a little extreme in my opinion, the man does raise some very good points and definitely provides a good perspective. And the man is not even really that big of a Cena fan.

In my opinion, John Cena is the better professional wrestler.

 

[Shadowmancer]

Okay lets break it down bit by bit:
Support from major Company:Cena has it for reasoning that is clear in that he works for WWE, whereas Danielson has Japan and RoH as well as other Independent events. I would take the huge numbers of fans in Japan personally because they are very reliable in who is a good Wrestler rather than the masses of the WWE.
Trained by:I will give the Nod here to danielson, he was trained by one of the best in Shawn Michaels, Cena was trained in the same place that produced Heidenreich and Mike Knox, while the guy is a good teacher(can't remeber the name) he is no shawn Michaels or Killer Kowalski.
Move Set:Without a doubt this goes to Danielson, there is no need to explain myself here.
Number of Memorable non-gimmicked matches:Im going to go with Danielson here because of his length of Time as RoH champion and the matches with guys like Nigel McGuiness, KENTA among others, whereas memorable non-gimmicked matches Cena has had that have been well planned out where Cena isn't carried around about 1, that was against Lesnar.

Adding them all up It goes 3-1 to Danielson. BTW Wrestlemania main events don't mean shit when it comes to being a better Wreestler look at Hulk Hogan, he was a huge Draw, but his only time where he worked well was in Japan, in the US he did Jack Shit in terms of moves. Andre is the same his size made him a draw, he was average at best in the ring though, I would rather watch an Andre match than a Khali match or a Big Show match on the other hand.

 

[Slyfox696]

Okay lets break it down bit by bit:
Support from major Company:Cena has it for reasoning that is clear in that he works for WWE, whereas Danielson has Japan and RoH as well as other Independent events. I would take the huge numbers of fans in Japan personally because they are very reliable in who is a good Wrestler rather than the masses of the WWE.

I think you underestimate the WWE fans.

Trained by:I will give the Nod here to danielson, he was trained by one of the best in Shawn Michaels, Cena was trained in the same place that produced Heidenreich and Mike Knox, while the guy is a good teacher(can't remeber the name) he is no shawn Michaels or Killer Kowalski.
Move Set:Without a doubt this goes to Danielson, there is no need to explain myself here.

Not sure how this paragraph has anything to do with anything. I mean Finlay was trained by Ted Betley...ever heard of him? Neither have I. You know who else was trained by HBK? Matt Bentley, Lance Cade, and Tyson Tomko.

Point being, the trainer cannot be used to determine who is better.

Number of Memorable non-gimmicked matches:Im going to go with Danielson here because of his length of Time as RoH champion and the matches with guys like Nigel McGuiness, KENTA among others, whereas memorable non-gimmicked matches Cena has had that have been well planned out where Cena isn't carried around about 1, that was against Lesnar.

Memorable to you, perhaps, but most wrestling fans will remember HHH vs. Cena, Umaga vs. Cena, RVD vs. Cena and Edge vs. Cena before they'll ever even hear about Danielson's matches. And, Cena wasn't carried in any of those matches, and actually carried RVD to a damn fine match.

Adding them all up It goes 3-1 to Danielson. BTW Wrestlemania main events don't mean shit when it comes to being a better Wreestler look at Hulk Hogan, he was a huge Draw, but his only time where he worked well was in Japan, in the US he did Jack Shit in terms of moves. Andre is the same his size made him a draw, he was average at best in the ring though, I would rather watch an Andre match than a Khali match or a Big Show match on the other hand.

The number of moves doesn't make a good wrestler, nor a good match. Look no further than some of Vader's classic matches like his match against Takada back in '94. Vader did little more than beat the ever-loving shit out of Takada and did it almost exclusively with strikes. He had a couple front-facelocks, but most of the match was him just punching the hell out of Takada. And the match is fabulous.

Professional wrestling is more than just about the moves. It's about the story that is portrayed in the match. It's about making the match look realistic, and stringing the spots together in a believable fashion, all the while building crowd heat into the match for a hot finish.

 

[Shadowmancer]

I think you underestimate the WWE fans.

I consider myself to be a Wrestling Fan, that includes WWE. so I am not underestimating, I am saying the average WWE fan, they don't usually go out of their way to watch Japanese matches or other Independent stuff, that is what I mean by average WWE fan.

Not sure how this paragraph has anything to do with anything. I mean Finlay was trained by Ted Betley...ever heard of him? Neither have I. You know who else was trained by HBK? Matt Bentley, Lance Cade, and Tyson Tomko.

Point being, the trainer cannot be used to determine who is better.

You can also include Brian Kendrick and Paul London, choosing the least liked members doesn't mean that they are bad, I personally like the work of Lance Cade. As for Finlay that is because he has the experience from being trained by his father and years of experience in the Ring. The Trainer usually allows you to get a gauge on how ready the guy will be for the big time after training.

Memorable to you, perhaps, but most wrestling fans will remember HHH vs. Cena, Umaga vs. Cena, RVD vs. Cena and Edge vs. Cena before they'll ever even hear about Danielson's matches. And, Cena wasn't carried in any of those matches, and actually carried RVD to a damn fine match.

I meaning matches that aren't being carried by one guy or the other, As I said Cena has maybe one or Two at the most, whereas Danielson's matches usually are good matches from the perspective that neither Danielson nor his opponent is carrying the match.

The number of moves doesn't make a good wrestler, nor a good match. Look no further than some of Vader's classic matches like his match against Takada back in '94. Vader did little more than beat the ever-loving shit out of Takada and did it almost exclusively with strikes. He had a couple front-facelocks, but most of the match was him just punching the hell out of Takada. And the match is fabulous.

Moves are part of a vocabulary the move moves you can do the greater your vocabulary, meaning you can pull off better matches due to move selection being more unexpected to the fans meaning you can tell a story in even more depth than you claim Cena does.

Professional wrestling is more than just about the moves. It's about the story that is portrayed in the match. It's about making the match look realistic, and stringing the spots together in a believable fashion, all the while building crowd heat into the match for a hot finish.

Exactly, but if you can't get put together a match that is about believeable spots which John Cena doesn't do that often. If you can't wrestle longer than 30 minutes without help form the other guy carrying you, it means you should not be a main event Wrestler.

 

[Slyfox696]

I consider myself to be a Wrestling Fan, that includes WWE. so I am not underestimating, I am saying the average WWE fan, they don't usually go out of their way to watch Japanese matches or other Independent stuff, that is what I mean by average WWE fan.

Think about this. Why is independent stuff, independent stuff?

You can also include Brian Kendrick and Paul London, choosing the least liked members doesn't mean that they are bad, I personally like the work of Lance Cade. As for Finlay that is because he has the experience from being trained by his father and years of experience in the Ring. The Trainer usually allows you to get a gauge on how ready the guy will be for the big time after training.

Obviously, certain trainers are better than others, but that's the only way to compare them. You can compare trainers, but not wrestlers by their trainers. Duke Basketball is the best program in the country, but the best players come from Texas and Ohio State this year. St. Louis is a hotbed for basketball in Missouri, but the best player in decades came from a town in Southeast Missouri called Poplar Bluff (Tyler Hansbrough). You cannot weight things in favor of a wrestler over another simply because of who their trainer is.

I meaning matches that aren't being carried by one guy or the other, As I said Cena has maybe one or Two at the most, whereas Danielson's matches usually are good matches from the perspective that neither Danielson nor his opponent is carrying the match.

Jericho, Angle, HHH, Edge, Umaga, and HBK were all matches that neither wrestler was carried.

And, let's remember something else. Cena gets one MAYBE two matches a month in which he can put on a good match...everything else is on Raw and not usually given enough time (match with HBK excluded). Then, even on PPV, he is sometimes squeezed (like at Judgement Day) by either a poor opponent or no time. Danielson has no such restrictions. Danielson routinely can go 20-40 minutes in almost all of his matches, because there is no time that he has to worry about. And, he can do this all over the world. So, the opportunities for Danielson to put on these supposedly "great" matches are far superior to Cena's.

Moves are part of a vocabulary the move moves you can do the greater your vocabulary, meaning you can pull off better matches due to move selection being more unexpected to the fans meaning you can tell a story in even more depth than you claim Cena does.

Then explain guys like Vader and Stan Hansen (and Hogan, but he doesn't seemed to be well liked here). These guys movesets were not extensive, they used most of the same moves over and over, and yet were considered some of the greastest wrestlers in Japan.

Using your vocabulary example, it's not what you say, it's how you say it. And John Cena says it wonderfully.

Exactly, but if you can't get put together a match that is about believeable spots which John Cena doesn't do that often. If you can't wrestle longer than 30 minutes without help form the other guy carrying you, it means you should not be a main event Wrestler.

Maybe you didn't see the HBK/Cena match from Raw. That match lasted approximately 40-45 minutes in real time, and neither man carried the other. However, if you WERE going to say one carried the other, Cena carried HBK. Now, I don't believe that, but HBK CERTAINLY didn't carry Cena.

 

[Shadowmancer]

Think about this. Why is independent stuff, independent stuff?

Because the Workers are independent Contractors for that event, the other way yo could say is Japan, the AWA, the NWA and other promotions of a similar nature. The promotions alsowork independently fom one another, that is why they are the indies.

Obviously, certain trainers are better than others, but that's the only way to compare them. You can compare trainers, but not wrestlers by their trainers. Duke Basketball is the best program in the country, but the best players come from Texas and Ohio State this year. St. Louis is a hotbed for basketball in Missouri, but the best player in decades came from a town in Southeast Missouri called Poplar Bluff (Tyler Hansbrough). You cannot weight things in favor of a wrestler over another simply because of who their trainer is.

Im not American so I don't really know much about the places there. But what you have said is arguable at best, Duke is one of the Best but not the best, The Best players are scattered because that is all down to luck of where the guy is born and how wel the recruiters do a job of recruiting. Actually you can compare wrestlers trained by them, Lets go with Stu Hart, I would take almost any of his students over a guy trained by Afa from the wild Samoans, while there are some good Wrestlers coming from Afa's training, there are also bad wrestlers that came from Stu Harts training.

Jericho, Angle, HHH, Edge, Umaga, and HBK were all matches that neither wrestler was carried.

Actually I would say he was carried by all of those guys, except for Jamal there as I think that was both working in combination, but the others it is pretty obvious that they carried Cena.

And, let's remember something else. Cena gets one MAYBE two matches a month in which he can put on a good match...everything else is on Raw and not usually given enough time (match with HBK excluded). Then, even on PPV, he is sometimes squeezed (like at Judgement Day) by either a poor opponent or no time. Danielson has no such restrictions. Danielson routinely can go 20-40 minutes in almost all of his matches, because there is no time that he has to worry about. And, he can do this all over the world. So, the opportunities for Danielson to put on these supposedly "great" matches are far superior to Cena's.

Ok he gets one or Two matches to show he can put on a good match, that is Bullcrap and you know it, if you have the ability to put on a good match week in and week out then you do it, being squeezed for time that is the fault of the bookers not the Wrestlers. As for Cena's match with Khali noone can pull a good match out of Khali, but that is a different matter all together. Danielson can do a good match in a few minutes or an hour it is usually a good match.

Then explain guys like Vader and Stan Hansen (and Hogan, but he doesn't seemed to be well liked here). These guys movesets were not extensive, they used most of the same moves over and over, and yet were considered some of the greastest wrestlers in Japan.

Using your vocabulary example, it's not what you say, it's how you say it. And John Cena says it wonderfully.

Actually Vader has/had(im not sure if he is retired now or what) is quite big so this is off topic but anyway Hogan used more moves in Japan and he got over there which is a hard thing to do. Cena is also repetitive and after about four matches you can call the match from Cena's POV based on how much time is left for Cena to have his match in. So being able to do that detracts major points in my eyes. Whereas Danielson gets over, he has signature moves but he doesn't have to use all of them, Cena however uses all of his signature moves each match, if you have to do this it means less vocabulary meaning you are not being innovative in the match structure, which good Wrestlers are doing.

Maybe you didn't see the HBK/Cena match from Raw. That match lasted approximately 40-45 minutes in real time, and neither man carried the other. However, if you WERE going to say one carried the other, Cena carried HBK. Now, I don't believe that, but HBK CERTAINLY didn't carry Cena.

One match a great wrestler does not make. Actually this match was for the most part full of rest-holds, Cena showed that he can hang in the main event if he is put against a good Wrestler like HBK. this however doesn't mean he is skilled enough to carry a company, Whereas Danielson as ROH Champion helped Carry that company with the Tag Champs and the Pure Champion Nigel McGuiness, but after that belt was unified it became Danielson and the tag Champs. But Cena is defined by the Belt and not the other way around like Danielson.

 

[Slyfox696]

Because the Workers are independent Contractors for that event, the other way yo could say is Japan, the AWA, the NWA and other promotions of a similar nature. The promotions alsowork independently fom one another, that is why they are the indies.

Ok, I actually meant that in another way. Why are the indies still small time?

Im not American so I don't really know much about the places there. But what you have said is arguable at best, Duke is one of the Best but not the best, The Best players are scattered because that is all down to luck of where the guy is born and how wel the recruiters do a job of recruiting. Actually you can compare wrestlers trained by them, Lets go with Stu Hart, I would take almost any of his students over a guy trained by Afa from the wild Samoans, while there are some good Wrestlers coming from Afa's training, there are also bad wrestlers that came from Stu Harts training.

The point is, who trains a wrestler has no bearing on who's better. It may help an individual's development, but great wrestlers can come from poor trainers, and poor wrestlers can come from great trainers.

Actually I would say he was carried by all of those guys, except for Jamal there as I think that was both working in combination, but the others it is pretty obvious that they carried Cena.

Explain to me how he was carried.

Ok he gets one or Two matches to show he can put on a good match, that is Bullcrap and you know it, if you have the ability to put on a good match week in and week out then you do it, being squeezed for time that is the fault of the bookers not the Wrestlers. As for Cena's match with Khali noone can pull a good match out of Khali, but that is a different matter all together. Danielson can do a good match in a few minutes or an hour it is usually a good match.

That is not bullcrap. His matches on Raw are generally ten minutes or less and generally are not used to put on a good match, but rather to further an angle or a storyline. He gets one PPV generally a month to put on a good match. And, you yourself, admit that he gets squeezed for time, a fault of the bookers and not Cena. And give me three matches of Danielson's that are considered great that come in under ten minutes.

Actually Vader has/had(im not sure if he is retired now or what) is quite big so this is off topic but anyway Hogan used more moves in Japan and he got over there which is a hard thing to do. Cena is also repetitive and after about four matches you can call the match from Cena's POV based on how much time is left for Cena to have his match in. So being able to do that detracts major points in my eyes. Whereas Danielson gets over, he has signature moves but he doesn't have to use all of them, Cena however uses all of his signature moves each match, if you have to do this it means less vocabulary meaning you are not being innovative in the match structure, which good Wrestlers are doing.

Cena uses his 5 Moves of Doom every match. Why? Not because he has to, but because it is good wrestling psychology. It always happens at the end of the match.

Why? Well, let's think about it. If you were in a real fight...and you knew that you were about to get beat...wouldn't you pull out your best stuff? Wouldn't you go to what you knows works the best for you? Of course you would. Cena punches and kicks in the first part of the match...occasionally some other moves. But, when it comes time for the end of the match, and Cena knows he can't take much more punishment and HAS to make his move, he goes to that which he trusts and knows works. It's good wrestling psychology.

One match a great wrestler does not make. Actually this match was for the most part full of rest-holds, Cena showed that he can hang in the main event if he is put against a good Wrestler like HBK. this however doesn't mean he is skilled enough to carry a company, Whereas Danielson as ROH Champion helped Carry that company with the Tag Champs and the Pure Champion Nigel McGuiness, but after that belt was unified it became Danielson and the tag Champs. But Cena is defined by the Belt and not the other way around like Danielson.

I agree that one match does not make a good wrestler. That's why I listed all of his other matches. And, it wasn't full of rest-holds, it was full of psychology. His headlocks and face locks were the head and neck area which is a focus of the STFU. He worked the back in anticipation of the FU. He sold his shoulder injury fantastically throughout the entire match. This match was a very good match.

Now, not as good as his match with Umaga I don't believe, but still very good.

 

[hulkhogan61]

100% agreed with everything said in this post...Great points! Someone mentioned Danielson having more talent then 90% of the WWE roster..Im pretty sure its more like 99%...the only guy i think who can hang with him overall is Chris Benoit. Cena is terrible to in the ring like more then half of the WWE roster.

 

[Shadowmancer]

Ok, I actually meant that in another way. Why are the indies still small time?

One word: Resources. The Indy promotions don't have the financial resources to pay Wrestlers to Wrestle exclusively for them and to be able to get a TV or PPV deal. whereas WWE and TNA have said resources to pay for the exclusive rights for Wrestlers. Even in ROH they let their talent work in numerous other promotions keping their financial ties in them to a minimum, TNA has a slightly different system where they let their Wrestlers work Indy events only if the promotion doesn't have US national distribution. WWE has absolute control over the places where their Talent can appear and Wrestle, there are exceptions to them not appearing at Indy events such as CM Punk getting permission to work a ROH event due to problems with the weather preventing Wrestlers getting to the event, and John Cena appearing at some Indy event that I can't remember. But the business side of the Pro Wrestling Industry is a murky place at the best of times in regards to what Wrestlers get paid and all that sort of stuff, we know the basic outline for WWE and TNA employees, but not many people know how Indy Wrestlers are paid in terms of financial gain. But Pro Wrestling is a business in the end and the main goal is to turn a profit.

The point is, who trains a wrestler has no bearing on who's better. It may help an individual's development, but great wrestlers can come from poor trainers, and poor wrestlers can come from great trainers.

True but if you have a good trainer it helps your standing in being able to get bookings and to get noticed by major promotions. So it is important, but if you have the talent then you have the talent, if you don't you you shouldn't really be Wrestling.

Explain to me how he was carried.

The Majority of the work in the matches was done by the other Wrestler in terms of Wrestling until the end in which his final set of Moves end the match, The exception to the rule is Gimmicked matches, Cena can pull off Gimmick matches quite well. He hardly ever puts up good Singles matches, they are rare events.

That is not bullcrap. His matches on Raw are generally ten minutes or less and generally are not used to put on a good match, but rather to further an angle or a storyline. He gets one PPV generally a month to put on a good match. And, you yourself, admit that he gets squeezed for time, a fault of the bookers and not Cena. And give me three matches of Danielson's that are considered great that come in under ten minutes.

I was actually talking in General, but an example of this would be Brian Danielson Vs. Brian "Spanky" Kendrick. It is a short match but it is a good match, it is the amount of time they allow for WWE main events on TV, this one is on youtube it is early on in Ring of Honor history but it is a nice and well done match for the time constraint.

Cena uses his 5 Moves of Doom every match. Why? Not because he has to, but because it is good wrestling psychology. It always happens at the end of the match.

Actually good Wrestling Psycology is about Intimidation, not about using the same moves at the end of a match. It is about working an injury that is inflicted. It is about in Kayfabe terms keeping the opponent guessing which move is going to be done next. Ending a match the same way every match gets very boring after a few times.

Why? Well, let's think about it. If you were in a real fight...and you knew that you were about to get beat...wouldn't you pull out your best stuff? Wouldn't you go to what you knows works the best for you? Of course you would. Cena punches and kicks in the first part of the match...occasionally some other moves. But, when it comes time for the end of the match, and Cena knows he can't take much more punishment and HAS to make his move, he goes to that which he trusts and knows works. It's good wrestling psychology.

There you said it yourself he pretty much just punches and kicks and then proceeds to get his ass kicked and sell, then to bring it home he does his superman thing where all injuries he was supposed to be selling are miraculously gone. I have a problem with this even with guys like Danielson and Teddy Hart who are amazing Wrestlers but if they do this then I would be pissed off. Cena does this quite often. And actually it is bad Psychology in Kayfabe terms because a ropeadope style in Wrestling would get you pinned more often than you would win. waiting to make a series of moves that are effectively fairly common but seem absolutly devastating by John Cena, Flying Shoulder Blocks End a match by Marcus Cor Van, a glorified fist drop is seen as devastating, I have the same problem with the People's Elbow a glorified elbow drop. The FU is a very safe move in terms of Imitation value by little kids. The STF that he does would be fine except that it is applied in absolutely Idiotic fashion to where I have labeled it the WTFU, Khali is one Example Benoit is another that it makes no sense for them to tap out to the move.

I agree that one match does not make a good wrestler. That's why I listed all of his other matches. And, it wasn't full of rest-holds, it was full of psychology. His headlocks and face locks were the head and neck area which is a focus of the STFU. He worked the back in anticipation of the FU. He sold his shoulder injury fantastically throughout the entire match. This match was a very good match.

Now, not as good as his match with Umaga I don't believe, but still very good.

There is very little Psycology when that comes up because all Wrestling works on the basis of that if you take out the head you are more likely to win a match due to a restriction of blood flow to the brain making them woozy meaning they are more susceptible to a Pin. As for the RAW match and selling, that is because he got his ass chewed out reportedly by HBK about how he was supposed to sell at Wrestlemania. I will admit freely that John Cena works better matches in Gimmick matches, they hide his flaws which is actual Wrestling while allowing him to be a brawler, because most gimmick matches are just about sheer brutality, I stand by what I said that Cena rarely Wrestles decent non-gimmicked singles matches.