The Straight Edge Messiah and the Bibical Messiah

[Tully]

I don't see any Christ-like imagery here.

1. Jesus did not "sacrifice himself" - he was publicly tried and executed by Jews and Romans

2. The 'faith' observations are equally ludicrous. Because some 'leader' talks to his followers in a calm voice <> "Jesus". Had the NEXUS members fallen asleep like the Apostles did, perhaps I could see where you're coming from but this feels more like your paranoia than anything Christ like.

3. Jesus' most-famous pose is with his arms uplifted to God, not his death pose from his arms being stretched out and nailed to wood.

In short, this is completely ridiculous. CM Punk is just being CM Punk, not Jesus.

 

[DwayneJason]

There isn't anything to be offended except Punk's made a damn good role out of what he's given. And also, he's not "Jesus" and they're not portraying him that way. The reason he's doing that is because of his straight edge gimmick. He's like a cult leader and not like Jesus. Every time Punk enters Lawler always says "Never join a cult group" that should send a message to kids and other people alike: He ain't jesus.

 

[Mr. Artistic guy]

It doesn't offend me in the slightest for THREE reasons:

1) Just like Monty Python's Life of Brian, at no time has he explained himself, nor has anyone else, to be the son of God. He has used words like messiah etc. but not once has he made a specific religious reference.

2) He hasn't made a single derogatory remark about religion in his whole story, nor a remark towards any religion of any sort. If he hasn't mentionned religion, it should therefore not be on anyone's minds. If you pick up on these things he says about faith, him bowing his head, positionning his body in a cross shape then your pretty much rumbling for an arguement because there isn't meant to be one to be had.

3) It gets heat! Despite what I say above, some people are naturally going to look to be offended by his actions, therefore it gets real heat from people, and real heat is better than kayfabe heat. It may gets you into more trouble, but it gets more people watching and that is the #1 priority after all.

And besides all that it's done well. I haven't been a MASSIVE fan of his work with Nexus thus far, but I'm sure as he grows into the role I'll enjoy it more, he'll start playing better, the whole thing will improve and it'll all be part of the bigger picture which is to generate a compelling story and to draw more viewers in the process.

 

[Jomo_mark]

For starters, he's only been teasing it and for all we know, it may just be a coincidence. Anyway, you're supposed to be insulted if Punk's doing a good job as a heel.

 

[the_migulator]

While I'm an Irish Catholic (I wouldn't say 'practicing' Irish Catholic) I don't find too much wrong with the way CM Punk is garnering his heat. One thing that does kind of 'irk' me is the fact he puts the stigmata on both hands, over his tape. I'm not a fan of this, and it seems like a small subtly, but I think he could eliminate that aspect. I could do away with the whole stigmata, truthfully. Otherwise, I'm pleased and entertained with CM Punk. He's easily the most over heel in WWE right now (maybe with the exception of Vicki Guerrero)

 

[JGlass]

By reading your responses it has helped me to understand my own feelings towards the Punk angle, and I think it's safe to say I've confused personal insult with terrific heel work/terrific booking.

Punk as a cult leader is definitely an effective angle that fits in with Nexus very well. It will be interesting to see how far the other Nexus members follow him, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them follow him to the extreme as they've already allowed themselves to be physically tortured during their initiation.

I think the angle is so infuriating because of the sharp contrast between Punk's cult like messiah and Jesus, not because the WWE or Phil Burke is trying to compare CM Punk to Jesus, but because CM Punkis trying to compare CM Punk to Jesus.

I can still see why it would insult people on a religious level and I can also understand if you feel it insults your intelligence, though that's too a much lesser extent, but I've really come around on this concept of CM Punk as a cult leader who is trying to portray himself as Christlike.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

I certainly have no problems from a religious point of view but that could be because I am not a Christian. I can see a devout Christian having a problem with this angle but at the end of the day we should remember that wrestling is just another form of entertainment. There are far worse things that we have seen in movies as well as on television, things which are far less accurate and much more demeaning to certain religious groups.

The point is that I think that the whole involvement of Nexus is pretty unneccesary. Its not that I don't like it but I think WWE have complicated a simple story into a much more complicated and controversial one just to keep the Nexus alive. I mean the crux of this storyline is merely Punk, a self proclaimed epitome of perfection, questioning the morals of a guy who is supposed to be the epitome of perfection in the opinion of the fans. Both guys are great talkers and I do think that any member of the Nexus will gain anything from this angle. If they were props when Barrett got pushed, they are going to prove probably even more useless now.

 

[JGlass]

Clearly, Tully, you have a very limited grasp on religion, which may or may not be your fault.

I don't see any Christ-like imagery here.

There is a ton of Christlike imagery and many allusions to Jesus in Punk's current gimmick. He has the long hair and the beard, he refers to himself as the messiah, and as many users have pointed out (I haven't even noticed myself), he has the stigmata on his hands, which are two marks on his palms where Jesus was supposedly nailed to the cross.

1. Jesus did not "sacrifice himself" - he was publicly tried and executed by Jews and Romans

This shows your lack of knowledge regarding the Christian religion. It is generally agreed upon by most Christians that Jesus died for our sins. He allowed himself to be crucified so that we would not have to suffer. He didn't have to be crucified, he was the son of God, he could walk on water, turn water into wine, and perform all sorts of miracles. Getting down off the cross would have been easy compared to healing lepers.

2. The 'faith' observations are equally ludicrous. Because some 'leader' talks to his followers in a calm voice <> "Jesus". Had the NEXUS members fallen asleep like the Apostles did, perhaps I could see where you're coming from but this feels more like your paranoia than anything Christ like.

You have to recognize the other aspects of his attempts to appear as Christlike to appreciate what the faith talk was all about, but it was definitely an attempt to establish himself as a religious figurehead of sorts. It doesn't have to be Jesus in particular, but the fact that Punk has been using other Jesus imagery makes it clear that he's attempting to emulate Christ in particular.

3. Jesus' most-famous pose is with his arms uplifted to God, not his death pose from his arms being stretched out and nailed to wood.

I'm sorry, in that case he's been using Jesus' SECOND most famous pose.

In short, this is completely ridiculous. CM Punk is just being CM Punk, not Jesus.

Clearly you need to do some more in-depth thinking while watching CM Punk in the future, as the comparisons he attempts to make between himself and Jesus are very clear and powerful.

 

[CaptainZaltan]

First and foremost, Punk's job is to get under the skin of the audience. The fact that you're furious just goes to show how well the angle is working.

Not all villains need to be the overtly cowardly, backstabbing lot. Some of the best fictional villains exhibit qualities which are generally idealized by the general public. It's their perversion or misuse of these qualities which make them resonate more. Punk's character views himself as a messiah, and adopts the relevant imagery and persona of that role. But while he acts the part of a holier-than-thou messianic figure on the outside, it's obvious to the audience that his motives are entirely selfish and villainous. His character is essentially a fraud and a hypocrite; a wolf in sheep's clothing. And such a character is hardly without precedent. You can look at cult leaders and some celebrity preachers to see real-world examples of what Punk's character is based on. You could also expand that to corporate criminals, and really any real world villain that hides behind a virtuous disguise. in essence, rather than comparing the character to Jesus Christ, you should probably be comparing it to David Karesh.

 

[MegaStarAustinSavage]

First off lets me say that I'm Straight edge and a Christian and PROUD of both , I am a huge fan of CM Punk and to be honest he is the ONLY reason I watch WWE . I really like the fact that Punk is using our beliefs during his career , see with CM PUNK being straight edge he could be a great resource for the WWE to talk to kids and help this generation stay on the right path even as a heel Punk using religious imagry is a GREAT way to promote himself as the Straight Edge Messiah He's not going around like JBL or "Nature Boy" Ric Flair claiming to be god or a wrestling god . IN PUNK I TRUST !! Straight Edge means ..... I'M BETTER THEN YOU !!

 

[jgregist]

I think this PUNk character could be the start of a dominant story line in WWE and one the WWE needs to get new viewers.

Imagine if you will following Wrestlemania, Punk wins the WWE title from a recently crowned John Cena (who wins the belt at Mania). Punk then admits to being behind the attacks on the WWE Legends and Vince McMahon and is able to antagonize a returning Vince and forces Vince to let his guard down and sign a document that states that Punk does not have to face an opponent twice in a calendar year, if he defeats them.

This would open up a variety of matches for the title and I would have Punk as a dominant champion and then in early March 2012 Punk is in the ring and tells Vince that he has defeated everyone (Taker, Edge, HHH, Shemus, Miz, Cena, Orton, Mysterio, etc) leaving him no one to face at WM 28. Punk tells Vince he has one week to come up with an opponent for WM or he is taking the night off and the next week on RAW as the show is coming to an end, Punk is in the ring talking trash about Vince, the WWE Universe, etc and all of the sudden the glass breaks signalling the return of Stone Cold Steve Austin for one last match as the man who saves WWE from Punk.

SCSA could win the title and retire as WWE Champion and then vacate the title thus setting up a tournament for the WWE title at Backlash 2012.

Gives WWE a major storyline, a heel champion, and Stone Cold the one last match on the grandest stage of them all.

Thoughts?

 

[Thesage1989]

i am Christian myself i know its just tv but it bugs me on some level because the imagery is so blatant, in SES his message was good but the logos he had on his shirt bugged me some what, and what buggs me more is that they put Mayson Ryan with him which means i have to see one of my favourite for the future do these things that are questionable but hey its just TV right i mean Rey's a Christian and he tatoes him self like crazy lol, i just hope they make it less notable because its blantant and in your face. just like when i want to watch TNA for the third time saw jeff Hardy call himself Anti Christ and boy i aint going near TNA again.

 

[smokehouse]

CM Punks pose like Jesus is nothing to bad..Look at Undertakers gimmick or Kanes..I mean Undertaker is the Deadman and will take you to hell.Kane was born out of hellfire and brimstone..Religion has not been harmed by any of these gimmicks..The only people that would find this upsetting are Holyrollers and as a believer in God I really do not like Holyrollers.

 

[dragonpunk3]

Clearly, Tully, you have a very limited grasp on religion, which may or may not be your fault.



There is a ton of Christlike imagery and many allusions to Jesus in Punk's current gimmick. He has the long hair and the beard, he refers to himself as the messiah, and as many users have pointed out (I haven't even noticed myself), he has the stigmata on his hands, which are two marks on his palms where Jesus was supposedly nailed to the cross.

I had to register with the forum just to respond to this nonsense. PUNK DOES NOT HAVE LONGHAIR AND DOES NOT HAVE A BEARD. I have not heard Punk refer to himself once as the messiah during this angle. Your total lack of observation is terrible.

Anyways, I think that the angle is the best thing I've seen on WWE TV in a long long time. It creates real heat, a fan punched him in the face for god sakes. Did you see the scarring on his face? Punk was quoted as saying that he wishes it was caught on tape cause I'm sure he'd love to show how much people hate him. I don't have any religious issues with this and spoke to some friends of mine who are more religious than I am and they have no problems either. I'm very excited to see where this angle goes!

 

[itsme123]

CM Punk's gimmick is great nothing to get upset over.It is very entertaining and has people talking about it, that's the whole purpose. In the past few weeks Punk has been the reason why Raw has been worth watching and his inring work was the best of last nights raw IMO. Smokehouse made a good point Taker and Kane both have demonick gimmicks and no one seems to mind, fans cheer for Taker. Bottom line, Punks is generating tremendous amount of heat which indicates he's successfully doing his job.

 

[TheOrtonRevolution]

I have no problem with this angle as I am a Christian. It's entertainment, get over it. And thanks to JGlass, I too see the Messianic imagery. Not that I'm saying it's correct, but w/e. It works wonders for him.

 

[UltimateHitman]

Being of the religious persuasion, I feel like I should add my 2 cents. I have noticed the religious imagery, but I feel like many others that it's geared towards projecting a cult leader image and not a Jesus-like image. I think this sums it up nicely:

...now if punk ends up on a cross in the ring and nexus grab plastic spears and start jabbing him and putting barbwire on his head yeah then its offensive..

Now that, to me, would be offensive religious imagery. And before people say "oh, don't complain, it's just entertainment", let me just say that one person's entertainment is not the same as another's, and just as you have the right to not believe or have different beliefs Christians still have the right to theirs, and the right to not have people ridicule them for it or tell them they have to suck it up if you want to step all over those beliefs.

That being said, there were more offensive storylines in WWE history and they never tended to last extraordinarily long times. (Well, save for Austin 3:16...) You had the Ministry of Darkness who actually "crucified" Austin on Taker's logo, you had the Sandman/Raven crucifixion which backfired with even the hardcore crowd, and as one poster suggested, the God as Shawn's tag team partner angle. That to me was actually pretty religiously insulting, not to mention just plain stupid. I would have thought Michaels' "newly found" religious beliefs would have either A) made him refuse the angle outright, or B) made sure that he was booked to win the match. But that's Shawn for ya! But even as these were all religiously offensive, we are all (mostly) still watching WWE and putting money into Vince's extraordinarily bloated pockets, so we couldn't have been TOO offended...

Back to the subject at hand, I can see where people could initially look at it and think that it's religiously themed. But again, as many other posters have pointed out, you have to think about the various cult leaders that society has had and realize that this type of twisted religious emphasis is exactly what they employed to further their own selfish agendas. And in the case of Punk, I think this is the category they are going for.

 

[Uncle Sam]

I had to register with the forum just to respond to this nonsense. PUNK DOES NOT HAVE LONGHAIR AND DOES NOT HAVE A BEARD. I have not heard Punk refer to himself once as the messiah during this angle. Your total lack of observation is terrible.

Welcome, but I think he meant had, obviously. I'd go as far to say that he simply hit the wrong key. Look at how close S and D are on the keyboard. Boy I can't tell you how much trouble I got into over all that praise of the Nintendo SS. Good post though; literate and everything.

Interesting story, I was watching RAW recently and I saw that Punk had drawn a red dot on each of his palms. I thought then that the shit was absolutely going to hit the fan. It didn't then, but it sort of has now.

I don't see how this is more of an issue now than when Punk actually looked like Jesus and had the full cult leader gimmick - going so far as telling people he would save them - but then he spreads his arms out before Fauxtista kicks him and suddenly he's being blasphemous or, I dunno, heathenlicious. Yeah, I like that. CM Punk - heathenlicious.

I hope for our sake he brings back a bit of the cult leader. His promos have just lacked that certain something lately that was helping him knock it straight out of the park weekly during the SES days.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Since becoming the leader of Nexus, CM Punk has taken his Straight Edge Messiah persona to the next level. While he has certainly suppressed the Straight Edge aspect of his personality, he has taken to using Jesus imagery.

He really isnt though, is he. I know were your head is at on this, that you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want him to be, but its not quite there. Is he right on the verge of it being blatant, creepy, and y'know, fucking awesome? Yea, sure, but this is still the embryotic (zygoat?) stages of the development of this whole thing. I would say every example so far has been fairly negligble, debateable. I think its on purpose, too. As in, the smarter fans can see it, but it isnt blatant enough to make parents notice of get angry about it. I doubt it goes TOO much further than the limits I just said, as much as I wish it would.

Sure, I noticed it as well, but I think everyone is being a bit dramatic as of right this moment. If it continues to develop more and more every week, as I surely think they are headed, then maybe...But as of right now, pretty insignificant.

 

[dragonpunk3]

Unclesam- Yeah you're right, it definitely could have been a missed key. I guess my bigger gripe and the reason why a one letter difference set me off is why is this so offensive. Why does religion need to be discussed and debated here. This is Professional Wrestling. We all (most of us) know that this is not real, that CM Punk is not trying to start a religious revolt.

The guy is generating heat, the likes of which I have not seen in a long time. I've been watching wrestling since the early 90's and I have been trying to think of better heels than CM Punk. His summer of Punk in ROH where he threatened to leave for WWE with the ROH title got the most heat I had ever seen in my life. I could not believe it. There are a lot of guys in WWE that can create cheap heat...Miz, Del Rio, Vicky, Michael Cole, etc. Punk creates real heat. He creates situations where people literally want to jump the guardrail and punch the guy. A wrestler that has that ability doesn't come around very often. While this storyline, as it has been said above, is in its infancy, I can really see it going very far. This is not like Wade Barrett's Nexus. This is an entirely different beast that I can only properly compare to Ravens Flock. I am excited as hell to see where it goes.

Storyline issues and whatnot aside. Punk got Cena to wrestle an incredibly entertaining match. I have seen just about every Punk match in WWE as well as 80% of Kenta's matches in Japan and I have never ever seen anyone counter the GTS into an STF. Yes, I actually marked out to a move John Cena did, it was awesome, and I cannot wait to see more.

 

[Tully]

Clearly, Tully, you have a very limited grasp on religion, which may or may not be your fault.




There is a ton of Christlike imagery and many allusions to Jesus in Punk's current gimmick. He has the long hair and the beard, he refers to himself as the messiah, and as many users have pointed out (I haven't even noticed myself), he has the stigmata on his hands, which are two marks on his palms where Jesus was supposedly nailed to the cross.



This shows your lack of knowledge regarding the Christian religion. It is generally agreed upon by most Christians that Jesus died for our sins. He allowed himself to be crucified so that we would not have to suffer. He didn't have to be crucified, he was the son of God, he could walk on water, turn water into wine, and perform all sorts of miracles. Getting down off the cross would have been easy compared to healing lepers.



You have to recognize the other aspects of his attempts to appear as Christlike to appreciate what the faith talk was all about, but it was definitely an attempt to establish himself as a religious figurehead of sorts. It doesn't have to be Jesus in particular, but the fact that Punk has been using other Jesus imagery makes it clear that he's attempting to emulate Christ in particular.



I'm sorry, in that case he's been using Jesus' SECOND most famous pose.


Clearly you need to do some more in-depth thinking while watching CM Punk in the future, as the comparisons he attempts to make between himself and Jesus are very clear and powerful.

I need to do no such in-depth thinking.

The guy who's watching a wrestling show and having his faith insulted by someone scripted to be a heel, OTOH, should really check himself....and his faith.

You Christians are always looking to be "offended" and it's a pile of horsecrap in this case. You're a majority that takes offense to everything. Frankly, I'm a bit tired of religious people getting all pissed off at those in the world who don't share their maniacal superstitions.

 

[Shocky]

Do people not notice the red dots on the palms of both of Punk's hands? If there was any doubt the dude is playing a Christ like role, that ends the issue.

Personally, I love the angle. It's a genuinely creepy angle. Punk spews a lot of bullshit that makes you say huh?, but it's creepy enough to get good heel heat. He doesn't cross the line as to be blatant and insulting with it.

People need to remember, it is just a storyline. it's a very subliminal and psychological storyline. It's not blatant and insulting like some of these wonderful gems...

 

[JGlass]

And in addition to being ignorant about religion, you prove that you didn't even bother to read what I said.

I need to do no such in-depth thinking.

The second you stop thinking is the second your brain begins to die.

The guy who's watching a wrestling show and having his faith insulted by someone scripted to be a heel, OTOH, should really check himself....and his faith.

I would totally understand if someone was insulted by the religious aspects of this angle. Even if he is primarily a cult leader rather than a true messiah, he is still using Christlike imagery, and that can be very insulting to someone who takes religion very personally and considers it part of their identity.

You Christians

Excuse me? In my first post I said that I am not religious and that I was raised Jewish. Even when I was religious I still never believed in Jewish.

are always looking to be "offended" and it's a pile of horsecrap in this case. You're a majority that takes offense to everything. Frankly, I'm a bit tired of religious people getting all pissed off at those in the world who don't share their maniacal superstitions.

Look, I can sympathize with you in regards to Christians getting insulted over small things, but in this case I would understand them getting upset. Jesus is what they base their entire religion around, and seeing a professional wrestler borrowing aspects from their lord and savior could be insulting to them.

I can't say for certain whether or not I'd be insulted if I was a Christian, but there are people who voted for the option that said that they were insulted on a religious level, and I believe they have the right to be.

 

[mrbrownstone]

No I am not in the slightest bit offended by it, I think it is amazing to be perfectly honest.

It is so great to see someone with a real gimmick, as opposed to just a monster heel or a super face, this is something different and it is a guaranteed heat magnet. I mean if people really start to pick up on this, then Punks heat levels are going to be through the fucking roof. I mean, people will hate him, if you have ever seen how people react when people insult their religion then you will get my point.

I can see how it would offend people though, and I think WWE should be careful not to take it too far. You don't want to lose the Christian portion of your audience because they are offended by Punk acting like Jesus. It needs to be kept respectful, you don't want Punk just coming out and straight up saying "I am better than Jesus" or something equally as stupid. It needs to be kept subtle while still being noticeable, if such a combination exists that is.

So yeah, a brilliant gimmick sure to increase Punks heat but it needs to treated carefully and not taken too far.

 

[LSN80]

To those saying change the channel if you're offended is quite narrow minded, to be honest. Just because someone, in JG's case, finds it offensive doesn't mean he should turn the channel. He's stating an opinion, and asking people what they think, personally. Nothing wrong with that. I always fail to understand the the hostility wrestling fans have toward one another for having an opinion. Yeesh.

To answer the question, Im perfectly fine with the angle, and this is coming from someone who is religious. HBK participated in an angle at Backlash 2006 where his tag team partner was God, and he lost the match. Heck, Vince even created the short-lived "McMahonism" during that time period. I look at it as something that is sports entertainment, and nothing more.

On top of that, Punk is doing a tremendous job of generating heat for himself. It's unnecessary I suppose in that Punk can draw heat without it, but it was time to take Nexus in a new direction. Punk already showed he could pull of this type of character once as the leader of the SES, so it's working for me with him as the leader of the new Nexus. To me, it unneccesary, but it's not offensive.