One Punch Doug Crashin
I AM INVINSIBLE!
Why can't we all just get along?
Shooting in San Bernadino, California
- Thread starter klunderbunker
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Mighty NorCal
SHALL WE BEGIN?
Which wraps back around to what we just discussed. Those verses from the Bible aren't being used to explicitly motivate people to behead and burn alive thousands of people , currently, as of right this moment.
Those verses from the Quran, are, being used for that
Mighty NorCal
SHALL WE BEGIN?
So then it's not incorrect....
Big Nick Dudley
Nick
I love how making an observation someone may not agree with makes me ignorant and/or uneducated on the subject. Grow the fuck up. I'm glad not all Muslims are terrible human beings, which shouldn't be a shock seeing that's exactly what I fucking said. But let's not make false equivalencies. The Westboro idiots? Just stop. When they actually kill someone, let me know.
Sometimes it's painful being a liberal given how politically correct we must be at all times to be part of the crowd.
Sometimes it's painful being a liberal given how politically correct we must be at all times to be part of the crowd.
Mighty NorCal
SHALL WE BEGIN?
This is indeed religion(for most people) in a nutshell....
A crutch to avoid thinking for oneself , something to belong to, and something to use to excuse you doing or thinking what you really want to deep down anywayd.
Big Nick Dudley
Nick
I will also point out, even though I shouldn't have to, that I'm an atheist. I'm really not a fan of organized faith as I think it chips away at individual ideas, kind of like liberal guilt and general right wing lunacy. While I feel the same way about Christianity, which is filled with its share of idiots, they aren't really the ones we need to be worried about in 2015.
My apologies in advance for offending those who can't grip reality due to that heavy ball and chain (made up entirely of nonsensical guilt) they force themsleves to carry around.
My apologies in advance for offending those who can't grip reality due to that heavy ball and chain (made up entirely of nonsensical guilt) they force themsleves to carry around.
A11oftheLights
Getting Noticed By Management
Yes and I agree with that. But I hate when people fundamentally say the Quran promotes violence when there are also passages in the Bible that are similar.
Religion is a neutral element. If someone is violent, angry, aggressive, etc. in nature then their form of religion will be violent, angry, etc. In domestic terms dont make people feel isolated to the point where they feel like joining a radicalised version of their religion. In international terms, dont murder innocent civilians and bomb critical infrastructure like hospitals.
HBK-aholic
Shawn Michaels ❤
For Gods sake, there's no way you believe I was comparing the actions of the 2 groups as apples and apples, which leads me to believe you purposely misunderstood for arguments sake while ignoring any context. The point was that when they do something - anything - 'in the name of Christianity' - Christians aren't immediately called upon to explain why what they're doing isn't Christian at all. My reply was directly to a quote about wanting to hear from the peaceful Muslims, and not about how Christians do things just as fucked up.
Regular Muslim's didn't do this either - hence why I reject the notion of wanting to hear from the 'peaceful' Muslim's. What are they going to answer, when they themselves are completely against these attacks? When Muslims were killed in a lot of them? They will have the same reply I will - someone not related to the attacks, someone against them, someone who doesn't identify with the 'religion' these attacks are 'in the name of'.
I'm not 'acting dense' about this - as we both agree the millions and millions of peaceful Muslims shouldn't be opressed for the actions of a few. Though I do disagree that you should feel uncomfortable about the religion. You should feel uncomfortable about extremists who enjoy killing. That could go for any cause at all. But I find it ridiculous to be 'uncomfortable' undergoing my daily life around practicing members of the Islamic faith.
LOL. What you said isn't something I 'disagree' with - it WAS pure ignorance. Wanting to 'hear from' the peaceful, caring Muslims. What a statement. As if all you see is terrorists and the normal Muslims are some kind of hidden minority. Maybe if you do nothing except listen to media, but in the real word I see peaceful Muslims every damn day, and hear them condemning the attacks they had nothing to do with.
And 'politically correct' being used as an insult is laughable, why people think they can just shout it as if nullifies anything anyone says I will never understand.
A11oftheLights
Getting Noticed By Management
I actually dont see peaceful people from any religion any day. 1. Because I dont leave my house most days but more because 2. I dont assume that someone is of a certain faith based off of how they look because thats racial profiling and therefore unless I know them personally I have no idea of their religous views
Well, not in this one example you provided. But in countless other examples it is incorrect.
You surprise me sometimes.
I hope this isn't referring to me as my response to you was really just towards that one part of your post and don't think you need to apologize for anything else you said.
As for the first part of this post... there are currently people with Christian ideology committing acts of terror in the United States (specifically the dude that shot up the Planned Parenthood), but they do not have the global influence that Islamic terrorists do. They are both serious issues, but one slightly more pressing than the other.
Mighty NorCal
SHALL WE BEGIN?
I mean....That's what you said? Sorry for misunderstanding then?
Thing is, as the statistics point out, its a little more than "a few". True the percentage isn't high, but ONE PERCENT(which is extremely conservative compared to what stats proved the last time we did this....just two weeks ago...) of a billion is still one million people. People are perfectly justified to have reservations and concerns.
Mighty NorCal
SHALL WE BEGIN?
So its the only thing relevant to our discussion?
Inner city violent crime is not even close to the same realm of what we are discussing here. Im sure the next time some black person goes on a robbery spree and then charges a cop in a cybernetic samurai suit and gets shot over it, we will be jumping back into that can of worms, were no one other than white people can be held accountable at all for any of their own willful decisions
????? Care to elaborate?
Mighty NorCal
SHALL WE BEGIN?
But its the only thing relevant to understanding the issues the world faces right now. That's why it is justified. Sure, both books have passages encouraging violence.
Once again, only one is being acted upon on an immense scale right now.
Big Nick Dudley
Nick
Nope, not ignorant whatsoever. I'm not only talking about terrorism, as I made clear in my original post. I'm talking about the extremes within Islam - poor treatment of women, worldwide, being number one. And being PC isn't always an insult, just when someone refuses to face the truth due to their undying allegiance to it.
Maybe when we have something negative to say about Islam, we should just start the post like this - "Keep in mind - what I'm about to post isn't an indictment of all Muslims or Islam as a whole. Generalization is bad." Would be a complete waste of time and keystrokes, but whatever keeps the rabid apologists calm.
It wasn't.
Very true.
A11oftheLights
Getting Noticed By Management
Perhaps because the middle east hasnt developed like the Western world due to the constant wars going on. Its completely hypothetical but I find it pretty easy to imagine most of the far right being radical christians if they were victims of drone strikes and the other monstrosities that happen.
Speaking of radical christians, didnt some guy shoot up an abortion clinic because he's pro-life in colorado recently? Now I cant say he is a radicalised christian, but that probably has something to do with the media not making his religion part of the discussion.
Jack-Hammer
YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!!!!
Why? Because it's not politically correct? The simple truth of the matter is that there are Muslims who follow this doctrine to the letter and feel it's their God given duty to spread their faith through violence towards nonbelievers.
I mentioned in my earlier post that there are violent passages within Christian belief as well. There's a big difference between words and actions, however, and however many Christian zealots take those violent passages as literal as possible, Christian zealots aren't out decapitating soldiers & civilians alike, they're not flying plains into skyscrapers, they're not bombing places of worship, they're not strapping bombs to themselves & setting them off in the hopes of killing as many people as possible.
As far as this man involved in the Planned Parenthood incident in Colorado, you notice he's been arrested and that society has condemned his actions. I'm not saying that there aren't people who pervert Christianity to suit their own ends just as there are who do the same with Islam, but you can't paint them with the same brush. Muslim extremists are viewed as heroes engaged in a holy war in the eyes of millions of followers of Islam. Even if there are those who agree with what this guy did in Colorado, you don't see anyone rushing to defend him or call him a hero.
As far as the development of the Middle East goes, it's difficult for certain nations to develop culturally, technologically and socially when so much of their laws are based on religious doctrine. From the very beginning of Islam's founding, the faith has been spread through war and violence, including Muhammad conquering most, if not all, of Saudi Arabia. As far as the constant wars going on, it's quite common in Islamic countries to fight one another and it's been going on LOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG before there were any drones or before there was even a United States. Whether it's Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Hindus or atheists, Islamic extremists consider you an enemy to Allah if you don't share their beliefs.
Big Nick Dudley
Nick
Good thing you said what everyone should already know. If you hadn't, everything you said in the first paragraph would be invalid. Sad, I know.
Mighty NorCal
SHALL WE BEGIN?
I don't think anyone who is educated on the entire picture would refute this.
Boy, you LOVE going to that drone strike well, don't you? Do you know that those were designed specifically to REDUCE civilian casualties, as opposed to the thousands who would die using old techniques? Shall we go back to those? Or hey, maybe we should just let these high value targets run free, aided and abetted most of the time by the local government? Or maybe we should accept that war is messy, and it fucking sucks?
Probably because he wasn't a religious person, and hadn't discussed pro life views with anyone he knew prior to the incident.
Wow, who is making assumptions based on race now?
It's Damn Real!
The undisputed, undefeated TNA &
You know why Islamic terrorism is so easy to justify by Islamic terrorists? Becuase it's not exactly rocket science to connect the dots between prescribed violence (like the kind in the Koran) and actual violence.
If you believe something strongly enough, then compound that belief by decrying it the infallible word of a world-creating God, and that belief is accompanied by unquestionable texts that prescribe violence or violent acts, it's not that difficult to build the bridge between this type of thinking and the type of actions that are clearly linked to it.
Islam is simply the violent religion of today. Christianity, Buddhism and others were the same of yesterday, and nearly every major religion on the planet has justified, rather easily, atrocities by citing texts the society believes are beyond reproach.
It's not that difficult to understand why this persists in countries or regions where the latter holds true. This is why I've said a thousand times now, the key to all of this is removing religion from the ever-decreasing group of things we consider beyond reproach. Of things we think can’t, or shouldn’t be criticized. When you wipe away the untouchable stigma that religion generally comes prepackaged with, it, like any other idea, becomes subject to a world of criticism and logical reasoning that tends to cut the legs out from beneath it regarding it’s more wild, harmful, pernicious claims and commandments.
If you believe something strongly enough, then compound that belief by decrying it the infallible word of a world-creating God, and that belief is accompanied by unquestionable texts that prescribe violence or violent acts, it's not that difficult to build the bridge between this type of thinking and the type of actions that are clearly linked to it.
Islam is simply the violent religion of today. Christianity, Buddhism and others were the same of yesterday, and nearly every major religion on the planet has justified, rather easily, atrocities by citing texts the society believes are beyond reproach.
It's not that difficult to understand why this persists in countries or regions where the latter holds true. This is why I've said a thousand times now, the key to all of this is removing religion from the ever-decreasing group of things we consider beyond reproach. Of things we think can’t, or shouldn’t be criticized. When you wipe away the untouchable stigma that religion generally comes prepackaged with, it, like any other idea, becomes subject to a world of criticism and logical reasoning that tends to cut the legs out from beneath it regarding it’s more wild, harmful, pernicious claims and commandments.
It's Damn Real!
The undisputed, undefeated TNA &
I should add to the above, this is the reason you see such a demand/call for "moderate Muslims" to speak out when these types of atrocities occur. That that’s being asked isn’t itself a bad thing. The intentions behind why illustrate whether it is or not.
Fools, some atheists among them, demand they do so to account for the actions of their religion, which is a low hanging fruit tactic. As if ISIL beheading James Foley is blood on the hands of Mohammed the 10th grade student in Boise, Idaho. The reverse tactic, for example, is used all the time in debates, when theists often cite Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and even Hitler (even though he was a Christian) as examples of “atheist” atrocities that atheists need to own if they’re going to continue to call themselves such. It’s silly finger-pointing that has no real value in a debate. As if pointing to minority occurrences as examples of why everything else about some belief or theory is bad is actually structurally sound.
Clearly, with Islam, the majority of believers are peaceful. However, the real reason moderate Muslims should speak out is to reinforce what I said above — that religion is not beyond reproach. That their religion is not beyond reproach. That they are willing to have big idea conversations about the role and responsibilities of their religion. Whether it’s a good thing to believe in it, what good it is responsible for, versus what bad it is responsible for. etc. Open the doors to debate. Open the doors to skepticism and critical thinking. Clearly identify the line that divides you from the “extremists” who lay claim to your tribe. Show the world the difference between what they believe and what you believe, and why what you believe isn’t worth dying over. That it’s a guiding principle in your life that you do not take so seriously you’d kill or die over it. That it helps you to craft their own personal philosophies, etc. in accordance with what laws and tenets of the faith you do agree with while dismissing the ones you don’t. This allows for a greater discussion about the role of religion to happen, which again, wipes away the “untouchable” stigma the religion comes prepackaged with. Once that’s accomplished, real, meaningful conversations can be had, devoid of fear and terror.
Fools, some atheists among them, demand they do so to account for the actions of their religion, which is a low hanging fruit tactic. As if ISIL beheading James Foley is blood on the hands of Mohammed the 10th grade student in Boise, Idaho. The reverse tactic, for example, is used all the time in debates, when theists often cite Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and even Hitler (even though he was a Christian) as examples of “atheist” atrocities that atheists need to own if they’re going to continue to call themselves such. It’s silly finger-pointing that has no real value in a debate. As if pointing to minority occurrences as examples of why everything else about some belief or theory is bad is actually structurally sound.
Clearly, with Islam, the majority of believers are peaceful. However, the real reason moderate Muslims should speak out is to reinforce what I said above — that religion is not beyond reproach. That their religion is not beyond reproach. That they are willing to have big idea conversations about the role and responsibilities of their religion. Whether it’s a good thing to believe in it, what good it is responsible for, versus what bad it is responsible for. etc. Open the doors to debate. Open the doors to skepticism and critical thinking. Clearly identify the line that divides you from the “extremists” who lay claim to your tribe. Show the world the difference between what they believe and what you believe, and why what you believe isn’t worth dying over. That it’s a guiding principle in your life that you do not take so seriously you’d kill or die over it. That it helps you to craft their own personal philosophies, etc. in accordance with what laws and tenets of the faith you do agree with while dismissing the ones you don’t. This allows for a greater discussion about the role of religion to happen, which again, wipes away the “untouchable” stigma the religion comes prepackaged with. Once that’s accomplished, real, meaningful conversations can be had, devoid of fear and terror.
It's Damn Real!
The undisputed, undefeated TNA &
Wrong. I know of numerous non-Muslims who are absolutely experts on the religion because theyve studied it. Theyve read the Koran. Theyve visited and spoken with Muslims all over the world. Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Maajid Nawaz, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Sarah Haider, Gad Saad, Douglas Murray and more among them. Some ex-Muslims, some never were. All, arguably, know more about it than most moderate Muslims who dont take the religion seriously.
You know what leads to ignorance? Allowing religious leaders to be the only voices in the conversation about the things they believe.
A11oftheLights
Getting Noticed By Management
No I'd say its more politically correct as you have evidence and my point of hating people referencing the Quran wasnt really even directed at you more just I hate when people do it and ignore the bible
This was more in regards to the separate argument that has branched out about muslims needing to condemn these actions or prove they aren't all terrorists as oppossed to other religions when something they do is disgusting. I used that shooting as an example because his religion is bought into it, instead he's referred to as "pro-life". Surely you see that is bullshit.
Geez thats a big fucking call, did you interview these millions of muslims or care to show me who did?
So your telling me that in the past when people have had differing ideologies they have been spread by war? Someone should tell a historian that and see if they are aware. Pretty sure judaism was spread through war as well mate. Pretty sure the romans persecuted christians because practising a religion outside of theirs was outlawed.
Yes I know that, but now you have ISIS as the enemy, wars are won through capturing the hearts and minds of the people. Bombing the fuck out of them isn't the answer, in fact its the complete opposite because it pushes them towards the enemy and helps them. Obama doesnt want to put ground troops in because one of the things he wanted to achieve was pulling troops out of the middle east (obviously thats not the only reason)
OYDK
King Of The Ring
Ok. I meant the 99% of non Muslims that DON'T study Islam for a living. Like everybody on this site. The ones that search up "violent Quran passages" on google and than post it on a forum like they're proving some magnificent point or argue that "Islam stands for violence" with little reasoning to back up the claim. Don't necessarily understand how one can become an "expert" on a specific religion seeing as religion means something different to everybody, but if they are knowledgeable of the Quran, than by all means the names you mentioned have a right to an informed opinion.
All I'm saying is, that if a Muslim or a Buddhist came up to me and told me what it means to be a good Christian from a literal interpretation of the bible, I would tell them to shut the hell up. I imagine it's much the same with Muslims and all the "analysis" of their religion they must endure by a majority of people who have very little understanding of it.
