Shooting in San Bernadino, California

[Slyfox696]

No offense taken.

I get what you are saying, and while I'm sure there are plenty of things you can point to that says they're the same as Christians, there are also things that point to them not being Christian. For example the infallibility of certain men, ala Popes and Priests; their version of Baptism; the Church forgiving sins; the Virgin Mary being a part of the Trinity; the Sacraments; etc. etc.

All things which existed before the Protestant Reformation.

Branching off from an entity and then claiming you are the entity is nonsensical. It would be like Sheaus and Randy Orton leaving the WWE, starting a promotion and then claiming they are the true WWE. We'd laugh at those people.

I have no problem at all with sects branching off from the Catholic Church and claiming they are also Christian. But to branch from the church and then claim the original church wasn't the TRUE Christian is nothing more than thinly veiled propaganda.

So can you see or at least understand why some people do not view them as what they identify with as Christian?

Outside of the stupid people, no.

I understand Catholicism was around first, but it's still vastly different from the Protestant denominations. Just because something came first doesn't mean they got it right.

While Catholicism certainly has its faults, both currently and historically (lots of them, in fact), having grown up in a Catholic church and visiting numerous Catholic churches over the years, the one thing I've never heard from any of them is the idea other churches who claim to be Christian are just pretenders. In my experience, it is only Protestants who have been so arrogant to make such a claim (and I have seen firsthand said arrogance, from the church my grandparents used to attend, no less).

Catholics are Christian. They were Christian before the Protestant Reformation. To be a Christian essentially means to believe in Christ and his teachings (and historically, through baptism), things which the Catholic church was doing from the very beginning.

So no, there is no logical way to claim Catholics are not Christian, unless one is completely closed minded, completely immune to the idea that even a slight variation of what they believe can still be considered Christian.

I view soda in your analogy here as religion, not Christianity. Christianity and Catholicism are different religions with some similarities, but still very different.

No, they are not. Catholicism is not a different religion from Christianity, whether in history or in practice.

I was raised Catholic, btw. Then as a teenager I started going to a Christian church. They're two different Worlds.

That doesn't make sense. When you went to a Catholic church, you went to a Christian church. Perhaps you now attend the church of a different sect of Christianity, but you've always went to a Christian church.

What do you mean by a 'Christian Church'?

The Catholic church is a Christian church.

'Christian' is the umbrella term; Catholic, Protestant etc. are the denominations. To say that Catholicism and Christianity are separate is factually incorrect.

Exactly.

 

[JGlass]

I view soda in your analogy here as religion, not Christianity. Christianity and Catholicism are different religions with some similarities, but still very different.

I was raised Catholic, btw. Then as a teenager I started going to a Christian church. They're two different Worlds.

With this line of thinking can you not see why some Muslims don't see ISIS as Islamic and rather as an entirely different religion?

 

[jmt225]

In my experience, it is only Protestants who have been so arrogant to make such a claim (and I have seen firsthand said arrogance, from the church my grandparents used to attend, no less).

We have very different experiences. My grandmother, who was Catholic, viewed the church I started attending as a cult. And most Catholics I've been around are very angry, unhappy people.

To be a Christian essentially means to believe in Christ and his teachings (and historically, through baptism),

And there within lies the problem. Catholicism teaches the Vatican's Catechism (not Jesus' teachings), while Christianity teaches the Holy Bible (Jesus' teachings).

What do you mean by a 'Christian Church'?

That's what my church identified itself as - a Christian church. There wasn't even a "Protestant" or "Baptist" term thrown in the middle.... it's just a Christian church.

The Catholic church is a Christian church.

A Catholic church is catholic church to me. I mean, that's why they're called Catholic churches. Maybe that makes me stupid in Sly and yours eyes, but that's how many people see it.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

With this line of thinking can you not see why some Muslims don't see ISIS as Islamic and rather as an entirely different religion?

HEY! Don't you be trying to sneak this shit in here!

 

[jmt225]

With this line of thinking can you not see why some Muslims don't see ISIS as Islamic and rather as an entirely different religion?

Of course. When did I argue otherwise?

I just believe "Islamophobia" is a fallacy and that the Quran does have some horrible verses in it that explain extremist-Islamic groups like ISIS beliefs, while at the same time no one could search through the Bible and be able to justify it influencing the mass slaughter of Jewish people.

 

[A11oftheLights]

I view soda in your analogy here as religion, not Christianity. Christianity and Catholicism are different religions with some similarities, but still very different.

Soda is christianity. Beverages are religion. That is all

 

[Slyfox696]

We have very different experiences. My grandmother, who was Catholic, viewed the church I started attending as a cult. And most Catholics I've been around are very angry, unhappy people.

A lot of CHRISTIANS are very angry, unhappy people. Look no further than Donald Trump for evidence.

And that was your grandmother. I'm talking about the church itself. And it's very possible the church you attended claimed others were not Christian, and they would be just as wrong. But it's not something I have ever been exposed to and I live in an area pretty strongly Catholic.

And there within lies the problem. Catholicism teaches the Vatican's Catechism (not Jesus' teachings), while Christianity teaches the Holy Bible (Jesus' teachings).

What are you talking about? First of all, the Bible only exists BECAUSE of the Catholic Church and their work in compiling and preserving the various works contained within. Second of all, Catholicism believes and teaches the messages of the Bible. I'm not sure why you think otherwise, but it is simply untrue. The Catechism is more of the guideline to better understand the Bible and live the word of God. Here's a good forum post from another forum to explain it:

Question:Why is the Bible and catechism of "equal" authority to catholics?

Answer: Hi,
The Catechism is not of equal importance to the Bible in Catholicism. The Catechism is given as a guide because in the Catholic faith there is not "private interpretation" but we go by Apostolic tradition. Peter states very clearly in his epistle that "no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation." Martin Luther and the other "reformers" especially Carlstadt introduced "private interpretation" as a tenet of the Protestant belief system even though the Bible forbids it. They introduced (16th Century) "sola scriptura - the Bible ALONE" as a kingpin of Protestantism. This is why we have over 33,000 Protestant denominations and sects - because everyone takes the Bible and forms their own belief system - this is why we find new "churches" starting all the time. Jesus started ONE CHURCH with HIS TRUTH being taught always and everywhere. The Catechism simply holds the line on the faith and it is there for all to see. It is a GUIDELINE not equal to the Bible.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=199275

In fact, the whole thread is a good read, you might check it out.

That's what my church identified itself as - a Christian church. There wasn't even a "Protestant" or "Baptist" term thrown in the middle.... it's just a Christian church.

Well, my Catholic church identified itself as a Christian church also. So then it must have been a Christian church of the Catholic faith. Right?

A Catholic church is catholic church to me. I mean, that's why they're called Catholic churches. Maybe that makes me stupid in Sly and yours eyes, but that's how many people see it.

Not stupid, just misinformed and misguided. I know you're not a stupid person, but you are simply wrong about this and anyone who feels similarly is also wrong. This isn't even something which can be debated, you are just wrong.

The word Catholic essentially means "universal". When the term was first used, it essentially meant the universal church, following the teachings of Christ. Over time, of course, it transformed from "a catholic church" to The Catholic Church, but it still followed the teachings of Christ. There is no way one can claim the Catholic church is not Christian, at least not with a modicum of research into the subject.

In fact, it is a FAR more accurate thing to say (in accordance to your apparent definitions) the church YOU attended is not a Christian church. It appears to have no real ties to any denomination, but rather simply chooses to create its own message. Ironically enough (and this is based SOLELY upon the very limited information you've provided), it sounds like your church really is closer to being a cult than a Christian church, based solely upon the number of people who attend.

But, with that said, I have no problem at all with your church calling themselves Christian. I assume they believe in Jesus and follow his teachings, which makes them Christian. Just like Catholicism.

 

[jmt225]

Fair enough, Sly. I'll read more into it. This isn't even a subject that I've ever put a lot of thought into (until this discussion anyway, lol)... I just always viewed Christianity and Catholicism differently, having attended a Catholic church growing up and having some Catholic schooling, and then moving on later in life to something else that identified itself as Christian and felt like a whole new World.

 

[klunderbunker]

A new study came out today which confirms what should have been common sense:

A majority of Muslims don't like ISIS.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/m...ve-overwhelmingly-negative-views-isis-n476081

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Wonderful. This is already well-known.

But that doesn't actually divorce the fact they are linked by connective tissue to the same religion. "Moderates" – the majority of Muslims — simply take their religion less seriously, and less literally than "Extremists" — the non-majority of Muslims.

 

[Hyorinmaru]

A new study came out today which confirms what should have been common sense:

A majority of Muslims don't like ISIS.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/m...ve-overwhelmingly-negative-views-isis-n476081

they had to do a study to figure this out?

 

[Slyfox696]

Fair enough, Sly. I'll read more into it. This isn't even a subject that I've ever put a lot of thought into (until this discussion anyway, lol)...

And that's the thing about Catholicism in America. So many people who criticize the Catholic church don't really know much about it and haven't really thought about it. This country, understandably so, was built in large part by those who had serious issues with the Catholic church, so it makes sense there will be quite a bit of venom (and ignorance) towards Catholicism. It wasn't until John Kennedy that we first elected a Catholic president and I don't believe we've elected one since.

I just always viewed Christianity and Catholicism differently, having attended a Catholic church growing up and having some Catholic schooling, and then moving on later in life to something else that identified itself as Christian and felt like a whole new World.

I guarantee you if you went to a Lutheran church and then moved to a Pentecostal church, it would feel like a whole new world as well. It wouldn't make either of them any less Christian though.

I appreciate you at least being willing to keep an open mind and maybe doing a little more research. But, if you ever get confused in your research, always remember that being a Christian, almost universally, means believing in and following the teachings of Jesus Christ and Catholics have been doing long before most other Christian denominations.

 

[A11oftheLights]

they had to do a study to figure this out?

when people like to throw out that hundreds of millions support ISIS, yes.
when a major newspaper runs a headline saying 1 in 5 muslims support ISIS, yes.

 

[Hyorinmaru]

when people like to throw out that hundreds of millions support ISIS, yes.
when a major newspaper runs a headline saying 1 in 5 muslims support ISIS, yes.

This is why I think people are idiots and major newspapers aren't fit to be used as T.P.

 

[A11oftheLights]

This is why I think people are idiots and major newspapers aren't fit to be used as T.P.

I agree fully. It often comes from both ends the far sides of the political spectrum. Often makes me feel like taking a drill and going to town on my temple

 

[Hyorinmaru]

I agree fully. It often comes from both ends the far sides of the political spectrum. Often makes me feel like taking a drill and going to town on my temple

I would have if I haven't stopped watching major news broadcasts or reading the paper years ago

 

[Cereal Killer]

Muslims shouldn't have to account for the Islamic State. But they have to acknowledge that they are also Muslims. They're simply literal ones. Ones who take the scripture literally. As a moderate, you can call them extremist, so as to divorce them from the version of the faith you believe, but you can't say they aren't Muslim. They are. They're just following the letter of the law while you follow the spirit of it.

Bang on. I don't get why a lot of the Muslims call ISIS non Muslims. I'm a Muslim and I can accept that they are. Just because they're horrible people, I don't care what people have to say to me in regards to being part of the same religion as them. Like you said, they're the ones that take certain verses literally, but they do follow Islam and just because they have horrible intentions, that doesn't take their faith away from them.

Now the only part I don't get about your post is where you say Muslims HAVE to acknowledge that ISIS are also Muslims. Some do and some don't, I don't understand the major issue with that.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Bang on. I don't get why a lot of the Muslims call ISIS non Muslims. I'm a Muslim and I can accept that they are. Just because they're horrible people, I don't care what people have to say to me in regards to being part of the same religion as them. Like you said, they're the ones that take certain verses literally, but they do follow Islam and just because they have horrible intentions, that doesn't take their faith away from them.

Now the only part I don't get about your post is where you say Muslims HAVE to acknowledge that ISIS are also Muslims. Some do and some don't, I don't understand the major issue with that.

Because it’s not factually true to say they aren’t. They are. The same as Fred Phelps’ psycho band of funeral-picketers are Christian. The same as the Klan are Christian. So is Pat Robertson. So was Jerry Falwell. So are the televangelists who fucking rob gullible old ladies of thousands of dollars every year.

You don’t just get to declare the people you disagree with, who share the same connective tissue to the belief system you adhere to "not true", and therefore not of the same system you are.

Example: Hillary Clinton and John Kerry are both Democrats. If tomorrow Hilary Clinton says something John Kerry disagrees with, he doesn’t get to claim that Clinton isn’t a “true Democrat”, or worse, that she isn’t one at all, simply because he dislikes that whatever it is Clinton said reflects poorly on him because of his association with the party they share.

This is why I said earlier that while moderate Muslims don’t have to make excuses for the Islamic State, they do have to acknowledge that they are actually Muslim as well. They don’t get to skirt the connections just because they think that the IS interpretation of the Koran is “too literal”, or “perverted”. Even if the whole world outside the minority of Islamists and Jihadists agrees.

 

[Blade]

I just always viewed Christianity and Catholicism differently, having attended a Catholic church growing up and having some Catholic schooling, and then moving on later in life to something else that identified itself as Christian and felt like a whole new World.

As an Irish person, I find this really weird. We were taught that Catholicism is basically the grandfather of all Christianity, which is pretty much the case. And we were also told that non-Catholic versions of Christianity were full corrupt and crazy people, which was a touch hypocritical in hindsight.

But nothing makes me happier than seeing the Catholic church slowly crumble to oblivion in this country.

 

[Барбоса]

But nothing makes me happier than seeing the Catholic church slowly crumble to oblivion in this country.

The decline in the Catholic Church's stranglehold over the hearts and minds in the Republic really has been startling in the last 2-3 years.

I suppose there are a lot of people who could only bury their heads in the sand for so long/deny historical abuses for so long before actually having to think for themselves.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

What about the Gelgamek Catholics?

 

[Cereal Killer]

Because it’s not factually true to say they aren’t. They are. The same as Fred Phelps’ psycho band of funeral-picketers are Christian. The same as the Klan are Christian. So is Pat Robertson. So was Jerry Falwell. So are the televangelists who fucking rob gullible old ladies of thousands of dollars every year.

You don’t just get to declare the people you disagree with, who share the same connective tissue to the belief system you adhere to "not true", and therefore not of the same system you are.

Example: Hillary Clinton and John Kerry are both Democrats. If tomorrow Hilary Clinton says something John Kerry disagrees with, he doesn’t get to claim that Clinton isn’t a “true Democrat”, or worse, that she isn’t one at all, simply because he dislikes that whatever it is Clinton said reflects poorly on him because of his association with the party they share.

This is why I said earlier that while moderate Muslims don’t have to make excuses for the Islamic State, they do have to acknowledge that they are actually Muslim as well. They don’t get to skirt the connections just because they think that the IS interpretation of the Koran is “too literal”, or “perverted”. Even if the whole world outside the minority of Islamists and Jihadists agrees.

But to what extent? If the 1 billion+ Muslims in the world all said that they're part of the same religion as ISIS, how would people look at them? ISIS claim their actions are justified by the Qur'an...the same book all the other Muslims read. Now I know, intelligent people like yourself are aware that there's a difference with the moderate Muslims and ISIS but there are a lot of people that label all Muslims as terrorists. That's not to say ISIS aren't Muslims, but just imagine the backlash against Muslims if they all just admitted that. In an ideal world, that wouldn't matter but you know how people can be.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

But to what extent? If the 1 billion+ Muslims in the world all said that they're part of the same religion as ISIS, how would people look at them? ISIS claim their actions are justified by the Qur'an...the same book all the other Muslims read. Now I know, intelligent people like yourself are aware that there's a difference with the moderate Muslims and ISIS but there are a lot of people that label all Muslims as terrorists. That's not to say ISIS aren't Muslims, but just imagine the backlash against Muslims if they all just admitted that. In an ideal world, that wouldn't matter but you know how people can be.

I like to hope the answer is “honestly”. Because it means you are willing to put your beliefs on the table for scrutiny and criticism. That you are willing to actually talk about about them in a meaningful way, free of the threat of violence when someone disagrees or questions your logic. Free of the promise of death when someone mocks your beliefs, or draws a cartoon of your prophet.

I get what you are saying, and I understand your fear. I don’t want to see peaceful Muslims, or believers of any kind, actually discriminated against or attacked because they are conflated with the IS, or religious extremists in general. But that doesn’t mean you get to skirt the fact that the same book unites you. You simply interpret it in entirely different ways. And it’s important for the world to understand this, which is why I am so much in favor of moderates not denouncing the IS as “not Muslim”. By being honest about your beliefs, you can educate the ignorant among us about how it’s actually possible for Muslim believers to live in and embrace a free society. You are the example of why the answer is not blaming all Muslims for the actions of a minority of them.

I’m actually in the process of re-reading Sam Harris’ “Letter to a Christian Nation”, and I actually had to highlight a passage in the opening “Note to the Reader” a few days ago because of how starkly it reflected what we are experiencing right now.

It reads:

“In Letter to a Christian Nation, I have set out to demolish the intellectual and moral pretensions of Christianity in its most committed forms. Consequently, liberal and moderate Christians will not always recognize themselves in the “Christian” I address. They should, however, recognize one hundred and fifty million of their neighbors. I have little doubt that liberals and moderates find the eerie certainties of the Christian Right to be as troubling as I do. It is my hope, however, that they will also begin to see that the respect they demand for their own religious beliefs gives shelter to extremists of all faiths. Although liberals and moderates do not fly planes into buildings or organize their lives around apocalyptic prophecy, they rarely question the legitimacy of raising a child to believe that she is a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew. Even the most progressive faiths lend tacit support to the religious divisions in our world. In Letter to a Christian Nation, however, I engage Christianity at its most divisive, injurious, and retrograde. In this, liberals, moderates, and nonbelievers can recognize a common cause.”​

Harris wrote this in September of 2006. Nearly a decade ago.

In effect, you can scrub all the references to Christian with Muslim and the entire structure never fails. The same message holds true today, nearly ten years later.