My Monday Night Wars "Blog" 1996 - The Other Perspective

[RicoLen]

I started this out as a PM to The Brain, after a conversation we had about Goldberg & Austin. However, I think I'll tweak it some and put it here for everyone else to chime in too, and I'll append it as I go.

In a recent thread I was talking about how I watched Goldberg's debut, and I watched each and every episode of Nitro and saw his streak grow and his character evolve etc. I did not mention that I also watched Scott Hall's first appearance in May of '96 and never missed an episode after that until 1999.

I mentioned that I was never a fan of Stone Cold's. I saw him debut as Ringmaster, I saw Austin 3:16 live, as I watched all of what were the core WWF PPV's (Royal Rumble, Wrestlemania, SummerSlam, & Survivor Series) but because of the decline in the WWF's overall quality I jumped ship to WCW. Which also means I never watched the evolution of Stone Cold. Nor even much of his early feuds for that matter.

I also remember you [The Brain] saying something fairly comparable but converse. That you'd seen bits and pieces of Goldberg's rise to fame, but not the whole thing, and were a WWF guy.

Over the past several weeks I've been making a point of trying to watch every episode of Raw I could find, starting in 1996, and watch them in order. There's a few things I've noticed.

One was holy crap WWF really was bad back then, but it was kind of like WWE in 2010, you could see things were getting better and better.

Two was that Austin really wasn't utilized too much at all, he was essentially just a mid-carder at best, who would job to Goldust, Marc Merro and anyone else that needed to be put over.

That changed after that In Your House after Summerslam. Apparently this was when Vince Russo was put into play. Everything took on a noticeably Russo aura.

There was the swerve with the Perfect Screwjob, where Perfect was set to return to action for the first time in ages, against HHH, only to get injured during a backstage fight with Hunter. Monsoon pulls the plug on the match and Perfect convinces Marc Merro to stand in for him, Hunter says he's not going to go for that match unless the IC Title is on the line, and Perfect puts it out that Merro accepts to those terms. During the match the ref takes a bump, Perfect goes in with a chair and knocks Merro out and Hunter takes the title and celebrates with Perfect like it was their plan all along. VERY Russo-esque.

Then comes out Bret Hart making his first appearance in the ring since losing to HBK in the Iron Man match. Listening to Bret, you can tell he's speaking from the heart (no pun intended) about everything, and it's really pretty much a shoot. This is a GREAT interview btw, one I suggest anyone interested in the Hitman v HBK feud watch, because it's very telling of where Bret was psychologically before that feud went south, and before the screwjob.

But Stone Cold, this first post is about Stone Cold. During Bret's interview Bret says he's come back to wrestle the BEST wrestler in the WWF today, Steve Austin. That is a HUGE push for Austin, IMO, because of the presence of guys like Pillman, Owen, HBK, & Taker.

The next week October 28 1996, Raw starts off talking about how Austin turned on his best friend Brian Pillman and ruthlessly attacked him during Superstars. Austin is interrupting just about every interview and backstage segment there is. Talking trash about everyone, and in general really upping his intensity 10 fold. Well, backstage chaos is again a very Russo-style thing to do. But it's Stone Cold doing it, and I tell'ya I don't think I've ever seen Steve Austin quite like this. And I think it's the first time I've really looked at the Stone Cold gimmick and thought to myself "holy crap, he IS cool!"

There's a number of things to keep in mind here. This is Vince Russo's doing! He's the one setting loose Stone Cold to cause hell, because up to this point he's been little more than a mid-carder jobbing to main eventers... [ironic sarcasm] like Goldust [/ironic sarcasm]. Bret Hart is the guy that actually put Austin over, and without seeing what comes next, I really wonder if Austin could have gotten as over as he did without Bret's help. I know Bret's heel turn is coming the following wrestlemania as well as Austin's faceturn so all I really know is that whatever match they have at Survivor Series it's not the end of it.

It kind of surprises me that I don't remember more of this feud off the top of my head because I did watch both Survivor Series 96 as well as Royal Rumble 97, but since I don't remember, and I'm watching Raw to experience it first hand. I figure I'll leave it at that, and not try and jog my memory; it'll add to the experience.

Now, this is specifically towards The Brain. I'm beginning to realize that you miss out on a lot by missing several episodes in a row, and pay-per-views and only watching someone's evolution casually. I missed that with Stone Cold and I've never appreciated that gimmick, but as of today I'm realizing that it's very possible that his gimmick really was great, and not just over-rated. My goal is to watch WWF MNR from Jan 1996 - Dec 2000. This is the period of time when I was watching WCW almost exclusively. I slowed down towards late 99 and started watching WWF more, but I still only missed only a show or two in 99. I want to see what I missed first hand, keeping in mind that what I'm starting with starts out terrible, but gets better and better.

Would you (or anyone else who never really watched WCW Monday Nitro during the Monday Night Wars) be interested in watching the history of WCW Monday Nitro? Starting with about 1995 and finishing with 2000-ish as it slides into muck?

I'm looking at it as a history project more than anything. To begin with I wasn't interested at all, but I've always wondered exactly what it was I missed, and I kept thinking one day I would like to give WWF's attitude era an honest chance. I'll be watching the birth of Austin 3:16 and the rise of Stone Cold & The Rock, the formation and reign of DX, and Taker vs Mankind. You, should you agree, will see the arrival of The Outsiders and the formation of the nWo, Raven's Flock, Sting going from being the surfer to the man in the rafters with the baseball bat, and The Streak. Either way you look at it, this was the best time to be watching Pro-Wrestling.

As much as I love the Golden Ages of the WWF, the combination of the Attitude Era in the WWF, and WCW's 84 weeks on top of the wrestling world were way better.

I can say getting to the point of In Your House: Buried Alive has been damned painful at times. Especially when I skip a pay-per-view because I've already seen it, because the main events of Raw were terrible! But now that I'm to the point where WWF is approaching survivor series I'm starting to finally be optimistic about each week actually being better, instead of more of the same mind-numbing crap.

I would really be interested and in fact enjoy reading what a mature attitude era fan thinks of WCW before watching Nitro the way I'm watching Raw, what their opinions are as they progress and how their opinions have changed (if at all) by the time the last Monday Nitro airs.

Do you like Goldberg? What do you think of Sting? What is your personal opinion of the nWo? What did you think about Raven's Flock? How 'bout the Luchadore division? (This was when Mysterio really WAS good IMO)

Then months from now, how have your opinions change?

I'm primarily targeting The Brain, because I think he would get the most out of it, and I kinda think he COULD walk away from this as a fan of Goldberg, and if not, at least a much greater respect for him as a pro-wrestler. But anyone with an open mind and willing to give WCW Monday Nitro an honest shot, that did not the first time around and was firmly in the WWF camp, would be a welcome addition to this discussion.

It would also be pretty cool to read what other Nitro fans think if they were to go through the same process I am, watching Raw and giving the attitude era another shot, starting right from the beginning.

 

[RicoLen]

11-4-96 Raw: "Pillman's got a gun"

This was by far the best episode of Raw I've seen on Raw yet in 96. Say what you want about Russo's future endeavors, in the WWF he was amazing. I've long held to the opinion that Russo was a diamond in the rough. He just needs someone above him, filtering out the bad and refining the good. I guess this episode got a lot of flak from the press, but damn, I liked it. First episode all year I was thoroughly entertained.

That's not to say it was perfect. The Sultan vs The Pug was just plain boring. And the only thing that made Stalker vs Goldust any good was the fact that it was Dwayne Johnson's first appearance on Monday Night Raw. He pretty much botched a cross body from the top rope and it took him 2 or 3 attempts to stand up on the turnbuckle, but it was entertaining none-the-less, if only because I knew who he was, and what he'd turn out to be.

Definitely the highlight of the episode was Austin vs Pillman at Pillman's house. Austin breaks in and Pillman points the gun at Austin and 'the feed get cut off'. They kept trying to restore the feed to find out what's happening. It definitely reminds me of the nWo wreaking havoc in WCW. It had to have been in answer to that stunt that this was done. They even talked about interrupting a contract signing between HBK & Sid.

BTW That HBK/Sid feud thusfar has been very reminiscent of Savage vs Warrior before SummerSlam 92, and no where near as good.

You know? I really have no recollection what-so-ever of a feud between Austin & Pillman in the WWF. I suppose if anyone is actually reading this they're probably thinking I'm a complete idiot about my knowledge attitude era history. The one thing I'm discovering is that it's very different to 'witness' things first hand rather than second hand via highlights, friends telling me about what happened etc. Even if I was doing it as it was all going down. I thought I had a pretty good handle on the Attitude Era but seeing it like this, it's just totally different. For the record I'm going to say that the attitude era started the Monday Night Raw after SummerSlam, because THAT is when everything really changed in terms of the quality of show and how everything was being done.

1 more Raw until Survivor Series. Looks like it should be even better than tonight's episode.

 

[The Brain]

One was holy crap WWF really was bad back then, but it was kind of like WWE in 2010, you could see things were getting better and better.

I don’t think it’s that WWF was bad back then. It’s just that what you saw in 1996 was the standard formula. You would get a one hour program that advanced one or two big storylines per week with mid card or lower mid card guys filling in the rest of the time. It wasn’t just 1996. That’s the way it always was including during the wrestling boom in the 80s. That’s the way it was for WCW before Nitro. Nitro changed the formula. WCW was giving away what would normally ppv matches away on free tv in an effort to beat the WWF in ratings. It took a little while for WWF to adjust, but eventually they would raise the bar for their show too and go to two hours to keep up with Nitro.

Two was that Austin really wasn't utilized too much at all, he was essentially just a mid-carder at best, who would job to Goldust, Marc Merro and anyone else that needed to be put over.

That changed after that In Your House after Summerslam. Apparently this was when Vince Russo was put into play. Everything took on a noticeably Russo aura.

Then comes out Bret Hart making his first appearance in the ring since losing to HBK in the Iron Man match. Listening to Bret, you can tell he's speaking from the heart (no pun intended) about everything, and it's really pretty much a shoot. This is a GREAT interview btw, one I suggest anyone interested in the Hitman v HBK feud watch, because it's very telling of where Bret was psychologically before that feud went south, and before the screwjob.

But Stone Cold, this first post is about Stone Cold. During Bret's interview Bret says he's come back to wrestle the BEST wrestler in the WWF today, Steve Austin. That is a HUGE push for Austin, IMO, because of the presence of guys like Pillman, Owen, HBK, & Taker.

The next week October 28 1996, Raw starts off talking about how Austin turned on his best friend Brian Pillman and ruthlessly attacked him during Superstars. Austin is interrupting just about every interview and backstage segment there is. Talking trash about everyone, and in general really upping his intensity 10 fold. Well, backstage chaos is again a very Russo-style thing to do. But it's Stone Cold doing it, and I tell'ya I don't think I've ever seen Steve Austin quite like this. And I think it's the first time I've really looked at the Stone Cold gimmick and thought to myself "holy crap, he IS cool!"

There's a number of things to keep in mind here. This is Vince Russo's doing! He's the one setting loose Stone Cold to cause hell, because up to this point he's been little more than a mid-carder jobbing to main eventers... [ironic sarcasm] like Goldust [/ironic sarcasm]. Bret Hart is the guy that actually put Austin over, and without seeing what comes next, I really wonder if Austin could have gotten as over as he did without Bret's help. I know Bret's heel turn is coming the following wrestlemania as well as Austin's faceturn so all I really know is that whatever match they have at Survivor Series it's not the end of it.

There’s no doubt that Bret Hart got Austin over. Despite winning King of the Ring Austin didn’t even make it on SummerSlam. Austin started calling Bret out and Bret accepted the challenge calling Austin the best in the WWF. You’re right about that being a huge push. I think most fans understand that Bret really helped put Austin on the map. I don’t think I’d give Russo as much credit for Stone Cold. Austin always had that personality. It just took WWF a while to allow him to let it out. If you’re suggesting Russo had a hand in allowing Austin to let it out I might agree. If you mean Russo was responsible for Austin’s new personality I would disagree and point to his short stint in ECW as proof.

Now, this is specifically towards The Brain. I'm beginning to realize that you miss out on a lot by missing several episodes in a row, and pay-per-views and only watching someone's evolution casually. I missed that with Stone Cold and I've never appreciated that gimmick, but as of today I'm realizing that it's very possible that his gimmick really was great, and not just over-rated. My goal is to watch WWF MNR from Jan 1996 - Dec 2000. This is the period of time when I was watching WCW almost exclusively. I slowed down towards late 99 and started watching WWF more, but I still only missed only a show or two in 99. I want to see what I missed first hand, keeping in mind that what I'm starting with starts out terrible, but gets better and better.

Would you (or anyone else who never really watched WCW Monday Nitro during the Monday Night Wars) be interested in watching the history of WCW Monday Nitro? Starting with about 1995 and finishing with 2000-ish as it slides into muck?

I'm looking at it as a history project more than anything. To begin with I wasn't interested at all, but I've always wondered exactly what it was I missed, and I kept thinking one day I would like to give WWF's attitude era an honest chance. I'll be watching the birth of Austin 3:16 and the rise of Stone Cold & The Rock, the formation and reign of DX, and Taker vs Mankind. You, should you agree, will see the arrival of The Outsiders and the formation of the nWo, Raven's Flock, Sting going from being the surfer to the man in the rafters with the baseball bat, and The Streak. Either way you look at it, this was the best time to be watching Pro-Wrestling.

As much as I love the Golden Ages of the WWF, the combination of the Attitude Era in the WWF, and WCW's 84 weeks on top of the wrestling world were way better.

I like your idea here but to be perfectly honest I don’t think I’d participate. No disrespect intended. I just know myself and I don’t think I would commit to it. I love watching wrestling but with something like this I would feel people would be waiting for a response from me. That would make wrestling feel like an assignment for me even though I know that’s not the intent. A couple years ago I tried keeping up with KB in his SummerSlam reviews which he was posting daily. I had fun doing it but I felt that I had to keep up and try to respond daily even though nobody was expecting me to and probably wouldn’t have noticed if I quit halfway through. I’ll definitely read your posts and respond when I feel I can contribute. I just don’t want to disappoint anybody by saying I’ll participate and then fall way behind.

I'm primarily targeting The Brain, because I think he would get the most out of it, and I kinda think he COULD walk away from this as a fan of Goldberg, and if not, at least a much greater respect for him as a pro-wrestler. But anyone with an open mind and willing to give WCW Monday Nitro an honest shot, that did not the first time around and was firmly in the WWF camp, would be a welcome addition to this discussion.

It would also be pretty cool to read what other Nitro fans think if they were to go through the same process I am, watching Raw and giving the attitude era another shot, starting right from the beginning.

I have seen some Nitro over the years. I’ve subscribed to Classics on Demand for five years now. One thing they do is show every Raw and every Nitro. They were at the time you’re at now when I first subscribed and are now in July 1998 (they don’t update weekly so it takes about two and a half real years to get through a full year of wrestling). WCW had some good stuff. I was just a WWF guy. It’s just like me being a Cub guy instead of a White Sox guy. They’re both my hometown team and the Sox have had some good players over the years. I was just brought up a Cub fan.

As for Goldberg, I know I’ve been hard on him here. If the only information I had on him was what I saw on tv I would probably like him more. I respect that he was incredibly over in 1998. I just feel that he built his streak in thirty second matches over guys like Jerry Lynn and Barry Darsow to cover his weaknesses. I think he was a product of his environment and as a rookie picked up some bad backstage habits from the guys in WCW who were known for their bad backstage habits. I also don’t like how he has the reputation as an all time great for one big year in the business in which he was very much protected. My biggest problem is how he left WWE in 2004 without appearing on Raw to hype his mania match (which I admit I’m not privy to the true facts and base my opinion on rumors and speculation). If I had the eyes of a fan that only cared about the product he saw on tv I’d probably like him and probably have more fun while watching wrestling in general. Unfortunately I’m cursed with the mind of a smark who thinks he knows more than he really does. By the way, there is a thread on Goldberg for anyone who would like to respond to that argument. Let’s not turn this into another one.

Just an FYI, I've actually been an attitude era critic over the years, at least as far as match quality is concerned. I think you'll have fun watching the storylines develop but once Bret and Shawn leave in late 97/early 98 the match quality drops in my opinion. The stories are still good in 98 but by 99 I was tired of attitude until Angle, Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero, among others freshened things up in 2000.

I think I've rambled long enough. So thanks anyways for this invitation but I just don't think I can commit. Maybe someone else will want to. I encourage you to keep watching the old Raw shows and keep posting if you want and I'll chime in if I have another perspective to offer.

 

[The Hardcore Kid]

I just started subscribing to the new WWEGreatestMatches.com (I had WWE On Demand when I had Verizon, but I moved and it's not offered where I live now), and it's great. I've been watching RAW chronologically in 1996, starting with the RAW before WrestleMania 12. I've always been a WWF/E guy, and while I started watching in 1995, I was nine years old so I don't remember an awful lot about it. So this has been a great thing to catch up on.

If they start offering full Nitros on the site (which they might, I haven't really looked into it TBH), I'd really like to do the same with them. Like Brain, I was just a WWF guy. My childhood buddy who got me into wrestling despised WCW, so by proxy, I wasn't exposed to it. I once Nitro started going 3 hours, I would watch it from 8-9 until RAW came on then switched. So I'd like to catch up on Nitro as well.

Little irrelevant I guess, I just wanted to chime in with the fact that I'm doing essentially the same thing right now. Interesting stuff.

 

[James]

My problem with WCW was that it was boring and after that first hour was over I would never even think aboot switching back over to it but my cousin would during commercials. WWE had that edgier feel to me and another thing that turned me off was.......Goldberg. I was like oh my god cool fireworks but other than that he was a yawn to me.


Your first post was nice and I will read your second in a few : )

 

[MMK]

As someone who watched every single RAW and NITRO as they happened, I can without a doubt say that the Monday Night Wars were the greatest period in wrestling history.

Both shows needed each other too. Without Monday Night RAW, there never would have been a Monday NItro. And without NITRO's new edgier approach, WWF would never have changed its product and adapted to the times which eventually led to them winning the monday night wars. Was one show better than the other? No. Was one company better than the other? Yes.

NITRO was a fantastic show. Always being live gave it an unpredictable feel not regularly seen on RAW in the beginning. The nWo and the cruiserweights were a perfect balance of wrestling and storyline. Everyone had something to tune in for. The problem with WCW was that NITRO was all they ever cared about. By focusing solely on winnning the monday night ratings each week, they did so at the expense of their ppv's. They gave away Goldberg beating Hogan at the Georgia dome in the summer of 98, for free on NITRO tv. That should have been a ppv match. The ppv buys would have been through the roof. But because Bischoff only cared about beating Vince in the ratings, he gave his greatest moment away for free on tv. And if youre good at something, you never do it for free.

That was just one of many missed oppurtunities on WCW's part. Contrast that to the WWF which always saved its best moments for PPV's. RAW could have easily beat NITRO in the ratings by simply giving away all their greatest ppv moments away for free on Monday Nights. Vince didnt need to wait until survivor series to screw over Bret. He could have done it the next night on RAW, or the week before. And why not have Undertaker throw Mankind off the Hell In A Cell on a live Monday Night. Talk about ratings! But Vince knew better. Bischoff and WCW were always thinking in the short term. That lack of long term planning eventually killed them. Unlike television, PPV moments have the ability to withstand the test of time. All you have to do is say Survivor Series 97 and people instantly think of Bret/Shawn/Vince. Just show the clip of Mankind/Undertaker/HIAC and you know where and when it took place. Thats why you save those big moments for ppv's. In any given year, there were hundreds of RAW and NITRO episodes, but you only have 1 Wrestlemania a year, 1 Surivor Series, etc. In the end, all those episodes of NITRO add up to a big blur. Which is why you save your biggest moments for PPV where they will stand out and stand the test of time. WCW's ppv's were meaningless. The only one people remember is Bash At The Beach when Hogan turned. Frankly, I'm surprised they didnt give that away for free too, just so they could beat RAW.

There's a misconception that WWF's product was terrible during the period where they were on the losing end of the monday night ratings. This isnt true. In fact, 1997 is arguably the most tumultuous, entertaining, and important year in WWF history. Can anyone name me the most memorable ppv moments from WCW in 1997? Don't go and google it, i'm talking about just off the top of your head. Nothing really stands out. Where if I ask you for the most memorable WWF ppv moments in 1997 you instantly think of the montreal screwjob at Survivor Series or Stone Cold pushing out of the sharpshooter with blood pouring down his face at Wrestlemania. And for me personally, the Canadian Stampede ppv where the entire Hart Family, including it's patriarch Stu Hart, stood in the ring all together for the first time, is right up there. My point is, that even when WWF was losing the ratings war on Monday Nights, it was creating ppv memories that would last a life time. Something you can't say for WCW. There short-sightedness eventually led to their downfall. TV ratings aren't everything. Unfortunately for WCW, to them TV ratings were the only thing.

But it wasnt just in PPV's that WCW lacking. It was also merchandise. Aside from those nWo shirts, what merchandise did WCW ever sell? As a 13 year old at the time, I can tell you that their video games, figures, and everything else SUCKED. WWF's products were vastly superior in every way. Hooray for WWF ICE CREAM BARS!!! lol. Again, WCW not thinking about the bigger picture. They were focused solely on winning tv ratings. And when the ratings disappeared, they had nothing to fall back on. Their fan based consisted entirely of people watching NITRO. Once those folks switched to RAW, it was all over. Wheras WWF could survive losing the occasional ratings war because they were still outselling WCW in merchandise, live events, ppv buys, etc, etc.

All that being said, despite WCW's shortcomings, NITRO itself was awesome. I even kind of like the fact that its no longer on the air. The reason I watch tv, movies, or sports, is to see how it ends. Thats the purpose of any storytelling. You want to know how it's going to end. WCW had an end. I like that. WWF will proably go on forever. And thats all well in good. But you can never be missed, if you never go away. NITRO will forever represent a period of time that can never be recaptured.

As for RAW, let's face facts. If they hadn't copied WCW, they may not have survived. WCW had the cruiserweights, so WWF brang in the light heavyweights. WCW had nWo, so WWF made D-X. Yes, DX was a blatant ripoff of NWO. It's not a coincidence that after Kevin and Scott showed up in WCW wearing black and white t-shirts, leather jackets and jeans, that Shawn and Hunter started dressing the same way over on WWF. But, much like how Demolition was a knock off of L.O.D back in the day, the WWF took a WCW idea and perfected it. Unlike nWo, the list of DX members didn't balloon out of control. It remained the original 5 of HHH, Chyna, XPac, Billy, and Roaddog. I'm sure there were moments when WWF was tempted to get a cheap pop from the crowd and have the Godfather, or Val Venis, or The Headbangers, or Too Sexy Brian Christopher join the group. They all would have fit. But that never happened. Whereas nWo's roster went from the original 5 (Hall, Nash, Hogan, Syxx, Giant) to 30 or 40 guys. And then the nWo itself split off into 5 different groups. nWo Hollywood, nWo Wolfpack, nWo b-team, LWO, nWo japan. Hell, there might have been more. NWO became the stable equivalent of doink the clown. It got to the point where you didnt know how many of them there were. WCW dilluted the group. It got so watered down that it became meaningless. So while DX may have been a ripoff, it was another example of Vince taking a WCW idea and tweaking it just enough that it ended up becoming more popular than its nWo counterpart.

Strangely enough, I actually prefered WWF's product when it was losing the monday night wars than I did when it started winning the ratings. I prefered Steve Austin battling the Hart Foundation than the corporation. Which again, was yet another nWo knockoff. And not nearly as good either. Although WCW certainly had its fair share of knock off characters as well (eh-em Goldberg. cough cough). Overall it was a fantastic period in wrestling history that will never be duplicated and I'm happy I was at the age where I was able to witness it all unfold as it happened. Both shows had their moments and an argument could be made for both shows being the superior. But there's no doubt which was the better company. I enjoyed both RAW and NITRO equally, althought I give a slight edge to WWF just because they created more memories that will last a lifetime. But when WCW was good, it was DAMN GOOD. Just a shame they burnt out so quickly.

 

[RicoLen]

I don’t think I’d give Russo as much credit for Stone Cold. Austin always had that personality. It just took WWF a while to allow him to let it out. If you’re suggesting Russo had a hand in allowing Austin to let it out I might agree.

Oh absolutely not, no Austin's best interview I had seen prior to starting this little venture was his ECW interview where he really showed his "stone cold" persona. But it had to have been Russo that set him loose and told him to go nuts. It's just reeks of Russo.

I like your idea here but to be perfectly honest I don’t think I’d participate. No disrespect intended. I just know myself and I don’t think I would commit to it. I love watching wrestling but with something like this I would feel people would be waiting for a response from me. That would make wrestling feel like an assignment for me even though I know that’s not the intent. A couple years ago I tried keeping up with KB in his SummerSlam reviews which he was posting daily. I had fun doing it but I felt that I had to keep up and try to respond daily even though nobody was expecting me to and probably wouldn’t have noticed if I quit halfway through. I’ll definitely read your posts and respond when I feel I can contribute. I just don’t want to disappoint anybody by saying I’ll participate and then fall way behind.

No worries. But I would definitely like to hear from someone that was solidly behind the WWF and would like to go back and watch WCW Nitro and give it a fair shake. Because I honestly believe they would come away from the experience finding that they've got a newfound respect for WCW and a number of the prominent stables.

I have seen some Nitro over the years. I’ve subscribed to Classics on Demand for five years now. One thing they do is show every Raw and every Nitro. They were at the time you’re at now when I first subscribed and are now in July 1998 (they don’t update weekly so it takes about two and a half real years to get through a full year of wrestling). WCW had some good stuff. I was just a WWF guy. It’s just like me being a Cub guy instead of a White Sox guy. They’re both my hometown team and the Sox have had some good players over the years. I was just brought up a Cub fan.

Yeah, I get that. I'm the same way with Raiders & 49ers. You can see the other stadium across the bay if you're at the top of the other. I could have gone either way. But I'm a Niners fan. With WCW it had all the guys that I grew up knowing and loving. This new rag-tag group in the WWF looked absolutely terrible. I mean come on, Bastian Booger, D.L. Hopper, Duke The Dumpster Drose, Isaac Yankem DDS, Aldo Montoya, Salvitore Sincere, the guys were absolutely terrible, and the guys that turned out to be something, showed no more promise at the time then anyone else. The only new guy that interested me was Mankind. When Bret took a break, that was just it for me, I started watching WCW instead.

As for Goldberg, I know I’ve been hard on him here. If the only information I had on him was what I saw on tv I would probably like him more.

Lest this turn into another thread about him, let me just say right here that my prediction is that your attitude would change some if you watched HIS evolution the way I'm watching Stone Cold's. I don't know how much mine will change, but I can tell you I'm seeing stuff from him I've never seen before and I like what I see.

If they start offering full Nitros on the site (which they might, I haven't really looked into it TBH), I'd really like to do the same with them. Like Brain, I was just a WWF guy. My childhood buddy who got me into wrestling despised WCW, so by proxy, I wasn't exposed to it. I once Nitro started going 3 hours, I would watch it from 8-9 until RAW came on then switched. So I'd like to catch up on Nitro as well.

If you do, I'd love to read your perspective on everything. They were both great, just very different products.


@MMK Good post, but one small thing. Demolition was in no way shape or form the perfection of The Road Warriors. They were a ripoff I guess you could say, I wouldn't even call them that myself. But there was no perfecting Hawk & Animal unless you make the argument that they were themselves perfected when they came to the WWF and renamed The Legion of Doom. That is something I could buy.


I'm having problems locating Raw 11-11-96. I think I might have to watch the Survivor Series 96 again (which I haven't seen since 1996) and call it good. I've only skipped a small handful of episodes thusfar, and this is an episode I would like to see. I'll update later.

 

[RicoLen]

Finished watching both the 11-11-96 Raw (flixonline.net is pretty sweet) and the survivor series. Not a whole lot to say actually. Austin was not featured as much (obviously, he pretty much dominated last episode) and wasn't as impressive either, but not bad at all. His vignettes are like 50/50 badass and hokey. The backing track, the backgrounds and the dogs barking and things like that are so over the top it takes away from his credibility, however Austin himself does a great job. It's really amazing WWF didn't ruin Austin, because base off ONLY what I've seen since starting this little endeavor, Austin stands at a precipice of either superstardom or falling into obscurity. Obviously we know where he went, but man, there are some times I'm just amazed it didn't blow up in their faces.

Really, it's only been a few hours since I watched Raw and I've already forgotten just about everything else that happened. Sid & HBK were in a match, Bulldog dropped out of the way of a superkick that landed on Sid instead, and that match did blow up on HBK & Sid. Even as I'm writing some of this is coming back to me but I can't remember who pinned who, I just know Owen & Bulldog won. Wasn't that special.

There was a vignette for The Rock, geez what a goof. He sounds the same, but he looks like a mop-headed norman smiley. They certainly put him over at the survivor series though.

Survivor Series was pretty good, better than I remember actually.

It occurred to me that Jake the Snake is basically the only old guy around that didn't work for the WCW during the Monday Night Wars, unless of course they signed him and then forgot to use him like Lanny Poffo. lol I'm kinda surprised Vince hasn't rewarded him with a HoF induction yet based on that alone. Never mind the rest of his legendary career. Jake had a great DDT on LOLer. He really had a good flair for his execution of the DDT, and people of course sold it better than anyone else's too. That's what happens when you innovate a move for your finisher and it becomes a mainstream move everyone uses I guess.

Hitman vs Austin was a great 20 minute match. Austin countered every other one of Bret Hart's 5 moves of doom. Russian Leg Sweep, check, Bulldog, Hitman get's shoved into the turnbuckle, Elbow from the turnbuckle, check (top this time rather than middle like normal), backbreaker, Austin counters. Hart never used the Sharpshooter, but Austin did get the Texas Cloverleaf, visually it's pretty much the same thing, on Bret. It's a shame that Austin had his neck broken, because beforehand Austin really could wrestle instead of just punch, kick, flip the bird, Lou Thesz press, punch some more, stunner and pin. Even though Austin lost this match, it really is a great match to look at when you want to show someone that Austin was a great mat technician.

Sid vs HBK actually turned out to be a good match. I was really afraid that'd turn out to be a dud. Especially since I had almost no memory of what happened in that match except that Sid won. The thing I noticed the most about this match was that it kinda seemed like Sid was being used as a prototype of sorts for the Stone Cold gimmick. Honestly, when you look at Sycho Sid compared to Stone Cold, there's only a couple major differences, most everything about their gimmick is the same. Sid even got over with the fans as a face after hitting Jose with the camera. After he won he was outside the ring bumping fists with the crowd. Actually it was kinda cool seeing him like that. The match was fairly standard fair but it told a good story. In all it was a good PPV.

Man after starting out in about February of 96, it's really nice to see that finally I seem to be moving upwards towards a better quality show. I'm actually enjoying what I'm watching now, rather than criticizing every little thing that goes down.

 

[RicoLen]

11-28-96

Not all that much was too great. It opened with Bret vs Owen, which is always worth a watch, but ended with a run in from Austin. The interesting part was watching Bulldog come out and stand up for Bret even though Owen was ready to let Austin do the Pillmanizer on his foot. Looks like they're starting a feud of some sort. I remember that they did feud for a time before Bret united them together and formed the Hart Foundation. So it looks like that next step is being taken.

The only other thing really worth notice was Rocky Maivia's debut on Raw. If The Rock weren't such a great showman his matches would bore me. He's not a great wrestler, plain and simple, but he's such an incredible showman, even here he was showing his potential, that it more than makes up for his sub-par in ring abilities. On the whole though, I can really see why people started chanting "Die Rocky, Die!" That original gimmick was just plain terrible.

 

[byrnside]

I think this is a refreshing topic for a thread. Brain and I have had [mostly brief, one-line] conversations about how we feel the "New Generation" may have been underrated. This is refreshing to me though because I actually did see a good bit of Goldberg's evolution while still remaining a WWF guy. I almost always managed to either record or catch replays of most Nitros. I agree with The Brain, though. I always felt that Goldberg was a Stone Cold rip-off that solidified his streak squashing guys like Road Block and Glacier. Just to clarify, I don't think the Goldberg character was a mirror image of Stone Cold, I just think that WCW creative at the time felt they needed to respond to Austin's character evolution and they stumbled on a big, bald guy that they eventually slapped some black trunks on and turned into Goldberg. Austin was a much more well-rounded character who had amazing mic skills and could execute well beyond more than 3 moves. Personally in 1998 I began to lose interest in Stone Cold and started to pay more attention to The Rock, but I think that has more to do with me being a fan of good heels/Austin's face turn more than anything.

 

[RicoLen]

Well I just finished watching the rest of Monday Night Raw in 1996. Hunter is actually starting to get interesting. Which in and of itself I find interesting, because HHH is one guy I've always hated with a passion and never had any respect for.

Bret Hart is slowly turning heel with his feud with Austin & HBK & Sid all at the same time. In just the last couple of episodes Vince has started using the word "Attitude" and Shawn has started referring to himself as a degenerate, mostly in sarcasm and in response to Bret Hart's views on him. I also picked up on Jerry Lawler calling Bret Hart a whiner.

One of the things I've noticed lately is that a lot of the popular views the IWC have regarding specific wrestlers mirror the views expressed by various other WWE superstars. It makes me wonder if it's as a result of those opinions expressed by the superstars, or if it was the other way around? Now-a-days superstars definitely reflect the views of the IWC, but back then, I kinda think that the views of the fans in general were a reflection of the views expressed by the superstars.

Personally I'm happy to finally be done with 1996. That was a terrible year for Monday Night Raw, but things are definitely looking up. It's certainly a lot better watching Monday Night Raw in it's entirety and in succession rather than just catching clips here and there, or one episode here and there. I can really appreciate the show as a whole a lot more this way.

I have decided that I will go back and watch WCW Monday Nitro starting with January of 1996 as well, but only after I'm done watching the WWF's attitude era first.

I've come to realize, talking with people here that my memory of things I saw once back when it happened and then never again, is pretty poor at times. For example, I would have sworn up and down that Mr. Perfect vs Ric Flair was the main event for the very first Monday Night Raw. heh WRONG. I also don't remember any jobbers being on Raw when it started... that also was wrong. When it comes to WCW during the Monday Night Wars I remember thinking of Raven's Flock being portrayed as more of a Fight Club kind of group, disenfranchised with the world of Pro-Wrestling and kind of giving up on the fans, and instead just hanging out ringside and coming and fighting simply to release aggression. However, it's come to my attention that is not true either. So I think once I'm done here I'll go back and watch WCW again and refresh my memory and see how my opinion on things change after watching it a second time.

I will say I only expect to see my opinion about Goldberg get better though. Because every time I see a match of his I'm impressed even more now than I was then. He WAS a wrestler, and a good wrestler at that. I think Goldberg suffers from the same 5 moves of doom-itis that John Cena suffers. In WWE Goldberg was not the same wrestler he was in WCW much like Kurt Angle is not the same character in IW as he was in the WWE. In WWE Goldberg was not a good wrestler, but in WCW, that's a different story.