You mean that Race who has defeated the likes of Flair, Funk, Dory, and a list of others? That old fogy. I guess if you were running the tournament, you wouldn't allow anybody that wrestled before 1980.
Yeah, that's who I'm talking about. The guy who only has a couple notable wins in his entire career that have been overly glorified to the point of exhaustion. And so what? He beat those guys at the time, so did a lot of other guys, but suddenly because Harley Race beat them he's the best thing since sliced bread? I don't think so. I never said anything about not allowing anybody who wrestled before 1980 being undeserving of being in a tournament of this type, but you have to be realistic to some extent. Realistically, Harley Race was never anywhere near as good as the people on here make him out to be, and in this match against RVD he is a fish out of water, outmatched as a athlete, and at a great disadvantage due to the stipulation.
UMMMMM NO!!! Harley Race in his prime could have went to any promotion in the world and dominate. He did it against the like of the Funks Flair Hogan Graham and Bockwinkel and your sitting here telling me RVD whose prime was spent as a mid card champion in an indy promotion would beat him soundly.
Sure he could go to any promotion at the time and dominate, he had the endorsement of the NWA, it's called politics. And as has been mentioned, the talent pool wasn't that deep to begin with so it was inevitable that he would share wins and losses with that group of guys. It's not like he REALLY beat them anyways, like it was a real fight, he was picked to go over sometimes, and they were picked to go over sometimes. Some of you seem to forget that this shit is pre-determined, as if these were actual fights that this guy won. That's not the case. He was one of a few big players in a boys club called the NWA that tried to strong-arm the business by making people either join the NWA or be blacklisted.
There should be someone to filter out all these ignorant ass "fuck the old timers" posts. The tournament is about who is the best of all time not of the last 10 years (which RVD STILL doesn't even come into the conversation).
What about the ignorant "These old school guys are better than everyone else that came after" posts and the amount of knob polishing going on in their favor? I never insinuated this was a "Best of the last 10 Years" tournament either, that's something you fabricated at your own accord. IN that best of all time category however, it has been duly noted that RVD still has more accomplishments to his resume against a broader group of opponents, in more big companies, at every level of those companies.
Harley Race in his prime was a badass he would have had half of todays competition running out the ring scared shitless. RVD on the other hand is a jobber to the stars on a level slightly above Shelton Benjamin.
Vote Race
How cute, you have such a vivid imagination. Todays competition wouldn't bat an eye at Harley Race. They'd be wondering how this old codger escaped from the nursing home and why he's running around in his underwear acting like some kind of tough guy.
At first I was somewhat with you but I think you are massively overplaying your hand. Why are we judging RVD in his prime and Race as a "grandpa?" An interesting part of this debate to me is something I brought up about Samoa Joe. How exactly are we judging RVD's prime if you like to talk about such things? To me RVD was at his physical prime in ECW but that was nowhere near his accomplishment or popularity prime. I actually think some of you arguing for RVD do him a disservice by relying so heavily on the ECW factor. Is it relevant? Yes. Is it the be all, end all? No. There is this tendency to claim a wrestlers prime is the best of all his career at various points combined into one fictitious "prime" that never actually happened. Why not talk about the success RVD has had in a variety of places instead of claiming silly things like a heel has no idea how to use weapons or that an old school wrestler doesn't have the oxygen to last in the ring?
I never focused on one point of RVD's career, merely the stipulation of the match. I'm looking at his career overall, it just so happens that his experience in ECW is extremely relevant to this match and gives him a major edge. I never said anything about anyone not being able to use weapons either, you pulled that out of thin air as you did plenty of other assumptions you made in this post. He's old enough to be my grandfather, and that's simply not bad ass or anything of the sort. He never looked bad ass, he never did anything bad ass, and for all his big talk about being such a fucking world beater he only has a couple notable wins in his entire "illustrious" career. He looked stupid out there in his little underwear with his dumb ass afro, chicken legs, out of shape body, and trying to act like some kind of shit stomper, when I could probably have went to any given Bar in any town he wrestled in and found a guy who would beat the shit out of him. Bottom line, there was nothing believable about him, and I wouldn't believe it if my grandpa jumped into his tighty whiteys either and tried to take on the likes of RVD either.
How does the system not allow success now?
There isn't a territory system in place anymore like there was then, where you can simply go from place to place as you get stale in one or the other. You have less options now and in turn have to really make the best of every opportunity you get because they are much fewer and further between. You think Harley Race would stay as significant as RVD with the same amount of exposure, over the same period of time? You think he would have even made it out of ECW? NO. He wouldn't have even been involved because they'd have said "No, you're too old, out of touch, stuck in the past, and your style is fucking boring, hit the bricks and move to Florida old man". He couldn't have captivated the audience there or in the WWE which we already saw in the late 80's, and he certainly wouldn't have had any longevity past that in the Next Generation Era, Attitude Era/Monday Night Wars, Post MNW Era or into today. RVD has made due in every promotion he's been in through all the shifts in the business in his career.
Cena billed 6'1" 251 pounds, Race billed 6'1" 245 pounds. What exactly am I supposed to be looking for again? Race is bigger than most of the main eventers in WWE now actually. Weight advantage on Orton, bigger than CM Punk and RVD. I see no reason why it would be fake to see him beat Punk or Danielson.
And are you going to sit there with a straight face and try to tell me that his height and weight aren't easily embellished? That guy is nowhere near 251 or 6'1''. It's more like 5'9"-5'10" and 185-205. Even if he were actually that big, that's not big by industry standards at all. The reason it would be too far a stretch of the imagination for him to beat the guys you named goes back to his appearance for starters, he would be a joke upon first glance. Then on top of that, every one of them are far better athletes, Bryan and Punk are probably better wrestlers period, Orton might be a better wrestler as well, and RVD has an arsenal he couldn't even begin to combat, and all of them could out-pace him as they are all in FAR better shape.
So you give a weird example then claim it doesn't even hold up but simply finish by saying you don't like the guy because he looks ridiculous. Is this a fashion show or a wrestling match?
I never said the example doesn't hold up, I simply said "Sorry I had to use inanimate object for my example but you get the point" and the point was that due to the evolution of the sport inside the ring, what he brings to the table doesn't cut it in 2012, the time of which this tournament is taking place. And yes, I do think he looks ridiculous and that is a legit gripe. That's a big part of what makes one get over, they have to look the part as well as play it well. He doesn't look the part. He doesn't even look like a wrestler. He looks like a guy who goes to the bowling alley, gets sloshed on some fuckin' Hamms or PBR, then goes home to the trailer park and beats his fuckin wife before forcing himself on her because he's a "man's man, a tough guy, a real bad ass old school wrassler". Fuck him.
Terry Funk did pretty well in ECW when he was years past his prime. In fact Terry Funk lost to Harley Race when both were in their primes and decades later Funk was able to hang with the boys in your precious ECW. You know what's really overpraised and overhyped? ECW. Do some flips, use some chairs, and crash through some tables and all of a sudden a bunch of rejects become legends in the eyes of the uninformed.
"MY precious ECW"? Who the fuck asked you or told you I ever gave one fuck about ECW for starters? ECW may have been overhyped, and I'll agree with you all the way, but this isn't a conversation about the company itself, it's a conversation about a match that takes place within the ECW environment with ECW rules which by happenstance puts one right up the ass of Ol' Harley. Since it is such an over-hyped thing to do those flips, use those chairs the way they did, use the tables the way they did and go through them, etc....Why doesn't grandpa Race try it? He'd be broken into pieces, but those "rejects" did in night in and night out to an audience of fans who cared more about them doing that than anything Harley Race ever did.
What kind of fucking mongrel is even named "Harley" by the way? That's the kind of name you give to your child when you're pissed they were even born, to make them pay down the road by having a stupid redneck fucking name.
BTW, Terry Funk DID go through those tables, he was a hardcore legend, a great technical wrestler, a great promo guy, a great teacher, and a great champion in his time. He's probably still wrestling somewhere every once in a while. But he's apart of that Funk lineage, a wrestling dynasty. Harley Race is one overblown fuck that constantly gets more praise than he ever earned, and I don't really care if he "Beat" Terry Funk, Terry Funk is far and away a better wrestler in every aspect. I'd probably vote him over RVD to be honest but that's not the match here.
This match is taking place in the 70s. At least it is for Race.
Oh I'm sure in his mind it is, he never left the 70's and their still asking for their perm and side burn-chops back too, make sure he gets the memo. A lot of those guys seemed to think that wrestling should always have stayed as it was in the 70's 80's and before that even. The only problem was that they tried to keep it that way, and it failed. They couldn't make enough money to keep that brand of wrestling going, that's mostly because they were too rigid, backwards, and short sighted to make any changes and evolve, and they were too fucking stupid to manage the money they got anyways
We are evaluating these guys in their primes. If we were judging this based on today I don't think Andre the Giant would have made it past Animal.
That is Mental Diarrhea. And I know we are evaluating them in their primes, but we are also comparing their careers overall to determine who is greater in the long run.
You think Race would be sucking wind in his prime. He regularly wrestled sixty minute matches.
Sure, but they were slowly paced matches. I could get off my couch and put on the same matches he did move-for-move hold-for-hold spot-for-spot after gorging myself at the buffet, smoking a pack of Marlboro Reds, and blazing a fat blunt of some of Super OG Master Kush. The bottom line is that the wrestlers of his day, including him, were nowhere near as well conditioned or in as good of shape as the guys of RVD's day, including RVD. Race was never able to go at as quick a pace as RVD either. So Yeah, he'd be blown up inside of 20 minutes at RVD's pace.
What about weapons? Did you see the video that was provided earlier? Race is no stranger to weapons and he can more than handle himself in a fight.
Duly noted, but he's not nearly as proficient with them as RVD, who is used to them on a regular basis being used against him, and finding innovative ways to use them against his opponents in an unorthodox manner that throws them off. It's the norm for RVD, Race only used them in acts of desperation to cheat. RVD has also stood toe-to-toe with much bigger, stronger, and tougher opponents than Harley Race.
This is tournament is to determine the greatest of all time. Not the greatest in 2012. You're just sounding stupid now.
Yeah, the greatest of all time as determined in 2012. The fact that you couldn't comprehend that only makes YOU look like the stupid one here.
Your ingnorance is amusing. In his prime Race could hang with absolutley anybody from today. Race was a man's man. He was legit tough. Most of the pretty boys in wrestling today would be brought to tears against Race. He didn't need to do any fancy flips. A tough guy like Race is more than capable of grounding a showboat like RVD. If this was a gymnastics tournament I'd vote RVD. In wrestling, give me Race.
Ignorance you say? I think that is best reflected in the puffery that is this last segment of your post. You keep telling yourself and others all that, no matter how many times you try to convince them or yourself, it will never be so. If that were all so true, you and the other folks cramming it down everyone's throats to make it a fixture in the status quo wouldn't have to crow about it incessantly, people would just know and be able to take that into consideration without the cheerleaders like yourself trying to sell everyone on the idea. And, this goes back to something else I stated. If he even remotely looked the part, that wouldn't be the case, you wouldn't have to sell it, people would buy into it themselves.
