ECW Region, Calgary Region, Second Round: (3) Harley Race vs. (14) Rob Van Dam

Discussion in 'ECW Region' started by Tastycles, Apr 24, 2012.

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Who Wins This Match?

  1. Harley Race

  2. Rob Van Dam

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. shattered dreams

    shattered dreams Hexagonal Hedonist

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    One hell of a post by jmt there. Possibly the best I have read in the tournament thus far. Now I am leaning towards RVD. If what jmt was saying about Race wasn't true I think the people supporting him would have said something to refute it by now. The last bump in the road for me is Taz. I don't think RVD beat him until he was leaving the company. Should I care about that?
     
    #51
  2. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    I don't care about this match enough to get into a debate with a poster as good as jmt, I think he's being a bit unfair. Race is older than Flair, but more importantly started wrestling in 1961, Flair started in 1972, so it's not hard to imagine that Race was much more over the hill at this time. Funk on the other hand was teaming with Jimmy Jack Funk and carrying a branding iron around, which I hardly think constitutes doing well.
     
    #52
  3. The Brain

    The Brain King Of The Ring

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    You're not really using the big fish in a small pond in favor of RVD are you? You've got it backwards. RVD was a big fish in a small fish tank. At his best Race was battling against Flair, Funk, and Rhodes. RVD was battling guys like Jerry Lynn and Balls Mahoney.

    Again, big fish small pond. So RVD was the most successful guy to come along during the invasion angle. I'll agree that he was better than Shawn Stasiak, Hugh Morris, Shane Helms, and whatever other leftover pieces there were to scrape up that weren't sitting at home collecting big paychecks from their guaranteed contracts. That's not really saying much though is it?

    Why can't I mention he was in the WWF at the end of his career? It is perfectly valid. Ric Flair and Terry Funk are a few years younger than Race and are among the best ever in the business. Harley Race traveled the world and didn't simply fit in just fine. He excelled.

    RVD was kind of a spot monkey but that's not to say he couldn't wrestle another style. He could get technical. He could brawl. That doesn't mean he could beat one of the best ever. I'm not saying Race is going to squash RVD in one minute. RVD can deliver a good match. I just don't think he would win.

    A quick trip to wiki will give you Race's title history. You want to question the credibility of those titles? That's fine. I can't say I know a lot about all of them but I'm willing to bet that they held more prestige than the European and Hardcore titles. RVD was a complete fail as WWE champion. Do people even remember that reign? That goes for his ECW reign too. He didn't even win the ECW world title while in ECW. How can Mr. Untouchable have gone his entire career without winning the big one? Why was he wrestling Jerry Lynn and Balls Mahoney while guys like Taz, Raven, Douglas, and Sandman fought over the world title? Why was RVD never given the ball in the place where he was most popular?

    I'll take the guy who consistently went up against the best of his era all over the world over the guy who was a popular secondary champion in a minor league promotion.

    Race was a cheating scoundrel who always looked for a short cut to win. He didn't need shortcuts to win but if a heel sees a shortcut he's going to take it. Race is tougher than most are giving him credit for. RVD was successful in ECW but it's not like he was Mr. Hardcore. Sure he used chairs but anyone can do that. I think Race is more vicious and has much more of a mean streak. He'll do anything to win.

    I'm not an ECW fan but I'm not a hater either. I am definitely not an RVD hater. Just because I'm voting the other way doesn't mean I'm a hater. I'm trying to be objective. Harley Race has long been recognized as a legend of this business. RVD, not so much.
     
    #53
  4. Born To Fly

    Born To Fly Occasional Pre-Show

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    This one goes to RVD. Under normal match rules, I'd might be persuaded to give it to Harley Race, but with extreme rules, RVD mauls him. I doubt Harley Race would be able to keep up with RVD's athleticism and innovative ways and if the match goes outside of the ring, RVD could use the barricades, walls and everything else to his advantage. RVD might not be the most technically sound wrestler in the world, but in this environment, it doesn't matter. RVD by pinfall, with the Five-Star Frog Splash.
     
    #54
  5. The Crock

    The Crock WOO!

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    Race also faced Bob Brown, Magnificent Zulu, Hacksaw Higgins, and so on. It's not as if he never faced any cans, either. Race went through the territories, occasionally wrestling the likes of Flair, Rhodes, and Funk, but for the most part, he faced regional guys.


    In the ECW environment, Rob Van Dam is going to be a HUGE challenge for Race -- one I'm not convinced Race can overcome. RVD can hang with Race, but he thrives in ECW. This isn't like arguing for Sabu, this is arguing for someone who was a genuinely great hardcore wrestler. Hell, RVD is one of THE all-time great hardcore wrestlers.

    What happened while RVD was carrying the Television Championship? It's been brought up multiple times, but that championship was -- in effect -- the most prestigious belt ECW ever had, when RVD was champion. In the ECW Region, that's most certainly going to come into play. RVD is ECW.

    I'm also not all that convinced that some of the championships Race held -- like the NWA Macon Tag Team Championships, IW North American Championship, or the NWA North American Tag Team Championships -- are all that impressive, either. I'd venture to guess that the European and Hardcore Championships, which RVD held, are a hell of a lot more prestigious than those.

    RVD has faced plenty of people like Race -- he found a way to win a lot of the time, too. RVD could be as hardcore as they came, but he was more innovative than anything. He's got such an unorthodox style, such an aptitude for the ECW environment, that I think Race is overmatched in that category. In this match, it's not as simple as, "any idiot can use a chair," it's about if they can use the hardcore environment against RVD or if they can use it like he can. Race probably can't.

    Look, I like Harley Race and I appreciate that he's an all-time great, but he's going up against RVD in ECW. This is the biggest homefield advantage possible. Not only that, but RVD himself is a very good wrestler, and that's something people seem to be glossing over. Just because he never got major success as the WWE Champion doesn't take away from that. Winning the big one isn't a determining factor in how good of a wrestler you are, nor is how good of a champion you were. If it was, we'd hail to Andre as an unstoppable force in this tournament.

    Rob Van Dam, in ECW, is near untouchable. A 23-week Television Championship reign (ending due to an RVD injury), where he did whatever he could have in ECW, is more than enough proof of that.
     
    #55
  6. Shocky

    Shocky Kissin Babies and Huggin Fat Girlz

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    There's only one correct answer, and it's Harley Race. Harley Race was an 8 time World Champion, RVD held the WWE title for a cup of coffee before he ended up getting busted for smoking pot and dropping the title.

    The over glorification of ECW sometimes is just plain stupid. I loved ECW as much as anyone on these forums, but for fuck's sake, it was nothing more then a territory. It wasn't some global juggernaut, it was a tiny little promotion that could, then burned itself out because it tried to hard.

    Name one other wrestler, besides RVD, that did anything of note outside of ECW. No I'm not talking about guys like Guerrero, Benoit, Milenko or Mysterio who stopped for a week in the company before becoming WCW guys. No, not Austin, Foley, or Pillman who were established elsewhere and stopped by before moving on. I'm talking about Legit "ECW guys" that made a name for themselves outside of that company. Can't think of any? Good, because no one achieved jackshit. Raven won an NWA title that was more worthless then the European championship.

    RVD excelled in a company where the competition would, and did, become nothing more then mid card talent at best in WCW or the WWF. Hell, even his run in the WWE was nothing more then battling upper mid card talent at best. RVD could beat many guys, but never could become a legit main event player.

    This nonsense that a guy like Harley Fucking Race couldn't compete in ECW is, indeed, nonsense. Terry Fucking Funk in his 50's went into that company and became their champion. It took Sabu, Bill Alfonso, RVD and some barb wire for Sabu to take the title off of him. An NWA wrestler from the 70's, 20 years past his prime, hung in with the best of ECW in their environment.
     
    #56
  7. The Brain

    The Brain King Of The Ring

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    Sure Race faced some no names. Everybody does. Race made his name against the greats of the game though. RVD did not. In fact RVD would probably fall into the regional category for Race rather than the Flair, Rhodes, and Funk category.

    It's too bad that ECW being ridiculously overrated on this forum could cost Race this match. Hardcore exisited long beore ECW came around. It was not invented in the bingo hall. I really don't see how RVD is the all time greatest hardcore wrestler. He was much more known for his aeirel tactics than his hardcore tactics. The problem is many people are more impressed with RVD's hardcore style because his does it with the flash of his aeirel moves. Watching RVD doing a coast to coast may be a thrill but Harley Race's ruthless ground and pound style would be more effective. Harley Race was hardcore since before RVD smoked his first joint.

    What is all this talk about the TV title being more prestigious than the world title? It was the secondary title. If RVD was the top guy why did he not get the top belt? When Ultimate Warrior was hot as IC champ he didn't just hold that forever. He went on to win the world title and give up the secondary title.

    Once again, I don't know about all the titles Race won but I can't imagine any of them were treated like the joke the hardcore title was and I highly doubt the European title was "a hell of a lot more prestigious."

    Who are the plenty of people like Race that RVD has beaten?

    And I like RVD but he is simply outmatched here. He's nowhere near Race's level. I don't see Calgary being a homefield advantage to RVD. It's a hardcore match far from the ECW territory. If this was in the bingo hall or the Manhatten Center you'd have a better case. Calgary is not an ECW town.

    Is a secondary title reign in a regional promotion really more impressive than multiple NWA world title reigns? Of course not.
     
    #57
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  8. The Crock

    The Crock WOO!

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    Since ECW happens to be one of the regions in this tournament, it's most definitely going to be a huge factor. I'm not a big ECW fan by any means, but this is the style of wrestling (the ECW style) that RVD helped guide, the style that evolved hardcore wrestling into what it is today. Race was tough, he would try to ground RVD and beat him senseless, but he's also at an extreme disadvantage when it comes to speed and use of the environment. I'm not saying Race is stupid, but if he ventures outside of the ring with RVD, he's bound to get burned.

    He may have been on the way to the "top" belt, he was going to face Mike Awesome (the ECW Champion) at the next PPV, but he was injured. Sounds similar to the scenario Warrior went through, if not for the injury.

    When you're getting regional titles that you might defend once before they move onto a local tag team, or something of the sort -- I think it's safe to say they don't hold a candle to the Hardcore/European Championship... even if those were lower card championships, they were in a global promotion, a promotion that meant something.

    People who, like Race, were willing to cheat? Angle, Christian, Guerrero, etc. I didn't mean literally like Race, I just don't think the cheating factor will do much to help Race -- considering this is ECW, and Bill Alfonzo/Sabu will be more than willing to help RVD "cheat." Cheaters were basically RVD's only competition in ECW, due to the rules, and he never struggled. He collected wins against people when they threw weapons at him, outside interference. He's seen it all.

    ...it's the ECW region -- ECW rules. I don't care where the match is being held, if it's under the ECW banner, I'll lean toward RVD.
     
    #58
  9. It's...Baylariat!

    It's...Baylariat! Team Finnley Baylor

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    How in the WORLD is RVD up on this match? I mean, the guy is uncoordinated in the ring, can do split legged things in the ring, and smokes a lot of weed and he can beat Harley Race?

    How dumb are you people. I won't dignify Coco with any response, because it's a moot point. He's trying to troll all of us, and well played btw, Coco.

    That being said, Harley Race is a 7-Time Worlds Heavyweight Champion in the NWA before Flair came along. He dominated the sport for close to three decades. He's beaten anyone who meant anything in wrestling on their home turf. Lawler in Memphis, Gagne in Minneapolis, Inoki and Baba in Tokyo, EVERY Von Erich in Dallas, Texas, Dusty Rhodes in Texas, Florida, and anywhere Rhodes laid his head.

    Race's credentials are second to none. Rob Van Dam is a cult favorite with wrestling fans who like colorful objects and weed. RVD's only meaningful title reign came against John Cena, IN PHILADELPHIA, AT THE BINGO HALL, WITH PAUL HEYMAN GIVING THE THREE COUNT! Get real, folks.

    If anyone lets RVD win this match, then Wrestlezone Forums loses nearly ALL its cred as a wrestling forum.
     
    #59
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  10. Big Sexy

    Big Sexy Deadly Rap Cannibal

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    When exactly did ECW become some major promotion? I was a fan of the product but it was never a major promotion that had a chance to legitimately compete with the likes of WWE and WCW. Just like ROH is now, it was a step above indy feds but not at the level of the major promotions. Harley Race won the top title in all of wrestling a total of 8 times. The biggest accomplishment RVD has had is his one reign as WWE champion and that lasted all of 22 days.

    The "ECW Advantage" is also the biggest crock of shit I've ever seen. Terry Funk was an old school tough guy whose best days were in the 70's and when he came to ECW he was seen as a god and a legend. He was admired so much that at the age of 52 he became the ECW champion on their first ever ppv. Harley Race also happens to be a legendary tough guy whose best days were in the 70's. He also got the better of Terry Funk when both were in their primes. If an over 50 year old Terry Funk excelled and rose to the top of ECW then I'm sure Harley Race would have done just fine.
     
    #60
  11. The_Sharpshooter

    The_Sharpshooter Always a Contender

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    Yall boys been battling. Funny read.

    Race in an ECW arena? You know he's coming out early popping off, saying he's won belts all over the world & its an insult to HIMSELF to be in this bingo hall, enraging the crowd. He offers anyone in the back a chance to try greatness. RVD music plays, crowd goes APESHIT!

    Match ends with a bloodied RVD going up for a 5 Star Frog Splash, but can't jump to the top rope as usual, due to fatigue from the beating throughout the match. He gets to the top, jumps for splash, but gets met on the ground with a chair for his face. Race pops up, delivers a devastating Piledriver, & get the pinfall. Harley Race is the New Big Deal in ECW.

    This is a match to validate Race in another territory. I vote Harley
     
    #61
  12. Hollywood Naitch

    Hollywood Naitch The current reigning and defending

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    In a normal wrestling match, Race dominates Van Dam. As much as I love RVD there is no way he comes out on top against a legend like Race. Harley held the NWA title 8 times when it was THE best in wrestling. To get that belt once was an incredible achievement, and Race got there 8 times.

    Yeah RVD was a dominant ECW TV Champion, and probably did make that belt more prestigious than the ECW World Title, but his actual World title reigns in WWE (where he had to wait until he was far past his best) and TNA have been total flops, and that is coming from an RVD fan.

    I would expect RVD's offense would initially give Race some trouble, as it is something he wouldn't have come across before, but Race is a smart guy. He wouldn't fuck around trying to outmanouvre RVD, Harley would just avoid a kick from Van Dam once, fucking smash him in the way with a chair, and then beat the crap out of him.

    Harley Race is one tough bastard, experienced and loves a good fight. He would win this one.

    Winner: Harley Race
     
    #62
  13. Larry

    Larry Getting Noticed By Management

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    Yeah, that's who I'm talking about. The guy who only has a couple notable wins in his entire career that have been overly glorified to the point of exhaustion. And so what? He beat those guys at the time, so did a lot of other guys, but suddenly because Harley Race beat them he's the best thing since sliced bread? I don't think so. I never said anything about not allowing anybody who wrestled before 1980 being undeserving of being in a tournament of this type, but you have to be realistic to some extent. Realistically, Harley Race was never anywhere near as good as the people on here make him out to be, and in this match against RVD he is a fish out of water, outmatched as a athlete, and at a great disadvantage due to the stipulation.




    Sure he could go to any promotion at the time and dominate, he had the endorsement of the NWA, it's called politics. And as has been mentioned, the talent pool wasn't that deep to begin with so it was inevitable that he would share wins and losses with that group of guys. It's not like he REALLY beat them anyways, like it was a real fight, he was picked to go over sometimes, and they were picked to go over sometimes. Some of you seem to forget that this shit is pre-determined, as if these were actual fights that this guy won. That's not the case. He was one of a few big players in a boys club called the NWA that tried to strong-arm the business by making people either join the NWA or be blacklisted.



    What about the ignorant "These old school guys are better than everyone else that came after" posts and the amount of knob polishing going on in their favor? I never insinuated this was a "Best of the last 10 Years" tournament either, that's something you fabricated at your own accord. IN that best of all time category however, it has been duly noted that RVD still has more accomplishments to his resume against a broader group of opponents, in more big companies, at every level of those companies.


    How cute, you have such a vivid imagination. Todays competition wouldn't bat an eye at Harley Race. They'd be wondering how this old codger escaped from the nursing home and why he's running around in his underwear acting like some kind of tough guy.

    I never focused on one point of RVD's career, merely the stipulation of the match. I'm looking at his career overall, it just so happens that his experience in ECW is extremely relevant to this match and gives him a major edge. I never said anything about anyone not being able to use weapons either, you pulled that out of thin air as you did plenty of other assumptions you made in this post. He's old enough to be my grandfather, and that's simply not bad ass or anything of the sort. He never looked bad ass, he never did anything bad ass, and for all his big talk about being such a fucking world beater he only has a couple notable wins in his entire "illustrious" career. He looked stupid out there in his little underwear with his dumb ass afro, chicken legs, out of shape body, and trying to act like some kind of shit stomper, when I could probably have went to any given Bar in any town he wrestled in and found a guy who would beat the shit out of him. Bottom line, there was nothing believable about him, and I wouldn't believe it if my grandpa jumped into his tighty whiteys either and tried to take on the likes of RVD either.

    There isn't a territory system in place anymore like there was then, where you can simply go from place to place as you get stale in one or the other. You have less options now and in turn have to really make the best of every opportunity you get because they are much fewer and further between. You think Harley Race would stay as significant as RVD with the same amount of exposure, over the same period of time? You think he would have even made it out of ECW? NO. He wouldn't have even been involved because they'd have said "No, you're too old, out of touch, stuck in the past, and your style is fucking boring, hit the bricks and move to Florida old man". He couldn't have captivated the audience there or in the WWE which we already saw in the late 80's, and he certainly wouldn't have had any longevity past that in the Next Generation Era, Attitude Era/Monday Night Wars, Post MNW Era or into today. RVD has made due in every promotion he's been in through all the shifts in the business in his career.

    And are you going to sit there with a straight face and try to tell me that his height and weight aren't easily embellished? That guy is nowhere near 251 or 6'1''. It's more like 5'9"-5'10" and 185-205. Even if he were actually that big, that's not big by industry standards at all. The reason it would be too far a stretch of the imagination for him to beat the guys you named goes back to his appearance for starters, he would be a joke upon first glance. Then on top of that, every one of them are far better athletes, Bryan and Punk are probably better wrestlers period, Orton might be a better wrestler as well, and RVD has an arsenal he couldn't even begin to combat, and all of them could out-pace him as they are all in FAR better shape.

    I never said the example doesn't hold up, I simply said "Sorry I had to use inanimate object for my example but you get the point" and the point was that due to the evolution of the sport inside the ring, what he brings to the table doesn't cut it in 2012, the time of which this tournament is taking place. And yes, I do think he looks ridiculous and that is a legit gripe. That's a big part of what makes one get over, they have to look the part as well as play it well. He doesn't look the part. He doesn't even look like a wrestler. He looks like a guy who goes to the bowling alley, gets sloshed on some fuckin' Hamms or PBR, then goes home to the trailer park and beats his fuckin wife before forcing himself on her because he's a "man's man, a tough guy, a real bad ass old school wrassler". Fuck him.

    "MY precious ECW"? Who the fuck asked you or told you I ever gave one fuck about ECW for starters? ECW may have been overhyped, and I'll agree with you all the way, but this isn't a conversation about the company itself, it's a conversation about a match that takes place within the ECW environment with ECW rules which by happenstance puts one right up the ass of Ol' Harley. Since it is such an over-hyped thing to do those flips, use those chairs the way they did, use the tables the way they did and go through them, etc....Why doesn't grandpa Race try it? He'd be broken into pieces, but those "rejects" did in night in and night out to an audience of fans who cared more about them doing that than anything Harley Race ever did.

    What kind of fucking mongrel is even named "Harley" by the way? That's the kind of name you give to your child when you're pissed they were even born, to make them pay down the road by having a stupid redneck fucking name.

    BTW, Terry Funk DID go through those tables, he was a hardcore legend, a great technical wrestler, a great promo guy, a great teacher, and a great champion in his time. He's probably still wrestling somewhere every once in a while. But he's apart of that Funk lineage, a wrestling dynasty. Harley Race is one overblown fuck that constantly gets more praise than he ever earned, and I don't really care if he "Beat" Terry Funk, Terry Funk is far and away a better wrestler in every aspect. I'd probably vote him over RVD to be honest but that's not the match here.

    Oh I'm sure in his mind it is, he never left the 70's and their still asking for their perm and side burn-chops back too, make sure he gets the memo. A lot of those guys seemed to think that wrestling should always have stayed as it was in the 70's 80's and before that even. The only problem was that they tried to keep it that way, and it failed. They couldn't make enough money to keep that brand of wrestling going, that's mostly because they were too rigid, backwards, and short sighted to make any changes and evolve, and they were too fucking stupid to manage the money they got anyways

    That is Mental Diarrhea. And I know we are evaluating them in their primes, but we are also comparing their careers overall to determine who is greater in the long run.

    Sure, but they were slowly paced matches. I could get off my couch and put on the same matches he did move-for-move hold-for-hold spot-for-spot after gorging myself at the buffet, smoking a pack of Marlboro Reds, and blazing a fat blunt of some of Super OG Master Kush. The bottom line is that the wrestlers of his day, including him, were nowhere near as well conditioned or in as good of shape as the guys of RVD's day, including RVD. Race was never able to go at as quick a pace as RVD either. So Yeah, he'd be blown up inside of 20 minutes at RVD's pace.

    Duly noted, but he's not nearly as proficient with them as RVD, who is used to them on a regular basis being used against him, and finding innovative ways to use them against his opponents in an unorthodox manner that throws them off. It's the norm for RVD, Race only used them in acts of desperation to cheat. RVD has also stood toe-to-toe with much bigger, stronger, and tougher opponents than Harley Race.

    Yeah, the greatest of all time as determined in 2012. The fact that you couldn't comprehend that only makes YOU look like the stupid one here.

    Ignorance you say? I think that is best reflected in the puffery that is this last segment of your post. You keep telling yourself and others all that, no matter how many times you try to convince them or yourself, it will never be so. If that were all so true, you and the other folks cramming it down everyone's throats to make it a fixture in the status quo wouldn't have to crow about it incessantly, people would just know and be able to take that into consideration without the cheerleaders like yourself trying to sell everyone on the idea. And, this goes back to something else I stated. If he even remotely looked the part, that wouldn't be the case, you wouldn't have to sell it, people would buy into it themselves.
     
    #63
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  14. Pay Per Ghost

    Pay Per Ghost squashed Disco Inferno to become

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    (Sigh)

    RVD.

    Why?

    This is ECW.

    If you don't give him his territory then why is he even here? Now anywhere else pffft, Race would have him done in WCW or WWE. No sweat. But this is ECW. RVD when given a match is a damn fine normal match wrestler btw.

    [YOUTUBE]qAtKwxqX0r0[/YOUTUBE]
    [YOUTUBE]mBvU2Sozhkk[/YOUTUBE]​



    This shows he can hang with the Races of the world. RVD will bounce around like a bunny taking bumps in this. Selling all of Race's stretchings. But as much as Race will dominate, it will take 5 seconds for him to pounce on the top rope and hit one of the sweetest moves EVER. In a hardcore environment, Van Terminator to the finish.

    ROB-VAN-DAM
     
    #64
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  15. Coco

    Coco Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Sorry, but I don't think a guy who shows up to post one month out of the year to throw a bitch-fit when people don't support his old fogies in the tournament is qualified to judge the character of the regulars.

    Actually, it was New York, the city that Vince McMahon puts above all others. You want real? This shows that your grasp on the facts is dubious at best. If you're going to underscore Van Dam like this, it's safe to say you're also overstating your point in regards to Race. And if you want to attribute this gaff to a fuzzy memory, then you should realize you fumbled a well-known fact regarding one of the most significant matches of the last ten years. Lord only knows how your memory has managed to butcher Race's peak back in days when Jesus walked the earth.

    As for Ba-Bomb, the man is spouting sheer brilliance. If you guys haven't read it yet, do so. A great indictment of the old-school territory system's supposed superiority over the wrestling culture Van Dam rose to prominence in. Those words have my full endorsement.

    Vote: RVD
     
    #65
  16. The Brain

    The Brain King Of The Ring

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    Sure you never said anything about not allowing anybody who wrestled before 1980 being undeserving but since you've done nothing but bury the best of the 70s you've pretty much implied it. You think he has only a couple notable wins in his entire career yet he won the most important title in the world on multiple occasions and was on top of the NWA for years. What impressive wins does RVD have that match that?


    This has to be the single worst argument I've read throughout this entire tournament. It is also a desperation argument. This thing works both ways genius. Brace yourself for some shocking news. All of RVD's matches have been predetermined too. He never REALLY beat anybody either. Seriously, how could you be this bad?

    It has been duly noted? Really? Harley Race was on top of the NWA for years. Back in Harley's day the NWA champion traveled the world defending his title against the top talent in every region. He faced the best from every promotion there was. RVD didn't even face the best in ECW and was far from the best in WWE.

    This might be the first of many times I say this because for some reason you can't seem to comprehend it. We are not asking if the Harley Race of 2012 would beat the RVD of 2012. Judge Harley based on his prime. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

    Of course he's old enough to be your grandfather. That is irrelevant. To think you could find any random guy in a bar that could beat the hell out of Harley in the 70s is laughable. Even if you could that has nothing to do with this match. Harley was believable. Not to a noob like you who think wrestlers have to look like movie stars to be believable. In Harley's day you didn't have to look like you wanted to be on the cover of a magazine. You just had to look like you could kick some ass. Harley looked like he could kick some ass. He wasn't going to do any fancy flips. He was just going to beat the hell out of you.

    Harley didn't travel from place to place because he got stale. He did it because he was the best and he was in demand. Again you bring up his age. You just keep making a fool of yourself. You must think Rex Grossman is a better quarterback than Joe Montana was because Montana is old now.

    You're questioning his size now? It's not like RVD is a giant. What in RVD's arsenal could Race not combat? A guy like Race would laugh at RVD and all his wasted motion and pointless flips and just pop him in the mouth.


    HARLEY RACE IS NOT A WRESTLER IN 2012. Do you understand that? If Rob Van Dam walked into a ring in 1976 he wouldn't look like a wrestler either. He'd be looked at as some gymnastic pretty boy that the real men would wipe the mat with. Race's look was prefectly suitable for the time in which he competed.

    They used chairs and crashed through tables because they had to. They couldn't get over without it. Race could use weapons. He has used weapons before. He didn't need to but if the situation called for it, like it does now, he wouldn't have a problem adapting. Did you see how he beat the hell out of one of the most sadistic wrestlers ever in a video posted earlier?

    Now you've given me something to think about. I may have to reconsider Race's entire hall of fame career because you don't like his name.

    You obviously don't care that he beat Terry Funk or anybody else. You're just voting against him because you didn't care for the fashion trends of the 70s.

    You clearly don't know because your entire argument against Race is his age and how he isn't a star in 2012.

    So if you were born in the 40s you would have been a multi time NWA heavyweight champion and headlined wrestling shows all over the world? Sorry we had to miss out on that. Just think if you were older we could be talking about you vs. RVD in this tournament. By the way, I bet Harley would kick your ass today. Yes I mean the Harley of 2012.

    That Vandaminator never made any sense to me. How stupid did it look when RVD threw a chair to his opponent? I have the perfect counter. Drop the damn chair or throw it back in his face. I bet Harley would have figured that out too. Please give me a list of people that RVD beat that were in Race's league.

    What does that even mean?

    So now you're saying we shouldn't post in here. Although I see you found it necessary to come post for RVD. Actually you really haven't posted for RVD. You've just posted against Harley Race because you can't possibly comprehend that wrestling existed before you were born. Nothing good ever took place until you came around to witness it for yourself, right?
     
    #66
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  17. a0161613

    a0161613 WZCW's Mr Excitement

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    My logic is going down the route of....If Dusty Rhodes can win a match in ECW in 1999 or 2000 or whenever it was, then Race in his prime wouldn't have struggled in the environment. I'm leaning to Race because he has achieved more on a wider scale but I'd be convinced, maybe.
     
    #67
  18. Coco

    Coco Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Did Dusty Rhodes defeat Rob Van Dam in ECW in 1999 or 2000? If not, your case speaks to Race's long since established ability to swing a chair, but not to his ability to put away a man the calibre of Van Dam. As such, I certainly don't think your case here is air-tight, Numbers.
     
    #68
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  19. Steamboat Ricky

    Steamboat Ricky WZCW's Living Legend

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    I'm just reposting this because it was largely ignored and quickly and illogically dismissed by a hysterical Coco who thinks that its relevance is lacking because Abdullah is fat and RVD would successfully run circles around Harley. WELLLLLLLLLLL (pun intended):

    [YOUTUBE]N-jWX2aaxtw[/YOUTUBE]

    This is what can happen to the high-flying, flip-doing, quicker, more "extreme" RVD when he's fighting bigger wrestlers in an ECW ring.

    And who's to say that RVD wouldn't violate the wellness policy and have to job to Race anyway?
     
    #69
  20. Coco

    Coco Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Bam Bam Bigelow. Skull Von Crush. The Dudleys. Van Dam is no stranger to heavy hitters in the REAL Extreme Championship Wrestler. You can pretend he's only beaten cruiserweights. But you'd be wrong. Again. As usual.
     
    #70
  21. Con T.

    Con T. Yaz ain't enough, I need Fluttershy

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    Right, but wouldn't you admit all of the names you mentioned above are jobbers? Fairly, very tough jobbers, but on their own, not really guys you could see carrying a company, much less draw money. As much as we clamor for Bully Ray to get a title run, he would be a disaster, even by TNA's standard, as a champion, if we're looking at business. Sure, we may get some entertaining tv with Bubba, but it would likely not do so well at the box office, or with ratings. Not that it really matters for TNA, but I digress.

    The point is, those men are tough, but jobbers. And, once again, we're back to that not making money issue. And Harley made a lot for promotions. RVD made his fair share, but not as much as Harley.

    Sorry if this argument is so... Specific to me
     
    #71
  22. Steamboat Ricky

    Steamboat Ricky WZCW's Living Legend

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    1. All of those guys sucked. Bad. None can hold a candle to The Big Show.

    2. The 'Real' ECW 'Really' wasn't watched by anyone, and therefore, it was a stepping stone to the big leagues. Guys like Paul Wight were hamming it up in front of a world television audience weekly. ECW was on local TV and when it finally went to cable, it was on some awful slot on TNN before it went 'pop.' Once it got actual mainstream exposure and someone with the talent of The Big Show decided to step in the ring, RVD couldn't cut the mustard.

    3. Who HAS RVD beaten? He beat Cena once (so has Lord Tensai), he beat a 50+ year old Sting, and he has beaten AJ Styles...a cruiserweight. Those are his top 3 victories. Not even close to the accolades of Harley Race.
     
    #72
  23. It's...Baylariat!

    It's...Baylariat! Team Finnley Baylor

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    :lmao:


    Hardy har har. And Vince McMahon could care less about the Hammerstein Ballroom. Or ECW. RVD was a transitional champion in the WWE. Harley Race was and still is considered one of the most respected wrestlers to ever lace up the boots. And tell me you don't think the RVD/Cena match was one of the most significant matches in the past decade. Because if you do, then :lmao:

    Race went into hostile territories all the time and beat their guy. If RVD's the guy in ECW, then Race would beat him like he owed him money. And based on RVD's drug habits, he'd probably end up actually owing Race money, because he'd probably pick his pants pocket.

    :lmao:
     
    #73
  24. Coco

    Coco Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    No. The Dudleys were a big deal for ECW and Bam Bam headlined ECW shows and a WrestleMania.

    Bubba's been in a major spot in TNA for a year now. If he was corrosive to the ratings, he'd have been demoted by now. He'd do just fine.

    Harley made money because he had a political backing at the national level Van Dam didn't. There was a time for Van Dam to make real money, but the egos of those in power got in the way. I can't hold that against the man.

    RVD getting himself into trouble with management doesn't mean he couldn't cut the mustard with paying customers. Not at all.

    He's beaten Rock, Austin, Triple H, Undertaker, Kane, Jericho, Edge, Orton, Angle. Better question: Who hasn't Van Dam beaten?


    All I see here is baseless dismissal and evocative emoticons. If that's all you got, I see it and raise you :lol::lmao::lol::lmao::lol::lmao::lol:
     
    #74
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  25. jmt225

    jmt225 Global Moderator

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    Did you actually watch the match? RVD kicked Big Show's ass and had him beat, but the ref was out and Paul Heyman interfered. That match alone shows that RVD can go one-on-one with anyone, regardless of their size or toughness. Besides, they would have a rematch a couple of months after that match, and RVD won.

    [YOUTUBE]eVGfxZwGeL8[/YOUTUBE]

    And by the way, non-kayfabe wise, the match you posted was easily one of the greatest singles matches the Big Show has ever had, if not the greatest, which shows just how good RVD is in that ring.

    John Cena
    Steve Austin
    The Rock
    HHH
    Kurt Angle
    Big Show
    Ric Flair
    Randy Orton

    ... those names good enough for you?
     
    #75
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