ECW Region, Calgary Subregion, Round 1: (3) Harley Race vs. (30) Umaga

[klunderbunker]

This is a first round match in the ECW Region, Calgary Subregion. It is a standard one on one match held under ECW Rules. It will be held at the Saddledome, Calgary, Alberta, Canada.

#3. Harley Race

Vs.

#30. Umaga

​

Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Theo Mays]

I'll likely get a lot of flack, but call me crazy if you must I'm taking Umaga. No disrespect to Harley Race, he is a fucking legend. Kayfabe wise Umaga was damn near unstoppable at his peak. Umaga has victories over Ric Flair, Triple H, Shawn Michaels, and John Cena in a very short span. When Umaga was at his peak his losses weren't clean or by DQ. The guy was built as a savage and you believed he could legitimately fuck you up. Race is as tough as they come, but I think Umaga's in ring abilities for a man his size and the way he is built up only being tamed by Armando Estrada gives him the edge here. I may be crazy, but this one should be close and Umaga should definitely garner some votes in the process.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

I see were you're coming from Theo but unstoppable monsters are far from uncommon but if this isn't translated to a World Title run then they were never truly unstoppable. Also, his greatest victories were over faces - something Harley Race wouldn't have been accused off. I think the combination of Race's hardness and his heel tendencies would see him past Umaga as he wouldn't be lumbered with the traditional face weaknesses against the straight ahead offence of the Samoan Bulldozer. Harley would use his great stamina to wear down his more cardiovascular deficient foe and take the win.

 

[The 1-2-3 Killam]

I would actually be really intrigued to see both these men go at it in their prime. Obviously two vastly different products separate their styles, making it pretty much impossible to actually book the match, but it would be interesting.

As has already been seen, Umaga has victories over some of the best in the business. Guys like Shawn Michaels, Triple H and John Cena. Umaga "bulldozed" over pretty much everyone in his path, and did so in one of the more viscous manors we've seen. He was one of the few REAL monster heels - terrifying children for all of his very short tenure in the WWE. I could actually believe that Umaga would go over Harley Race, if for nothing else but to give him another huge win for the future of his career.

But Race isn't exactly a lightweight. He wasn't quite the monster that Umaga was, but he did manage to win the King of the Ring tournament in its second year, elimination both George Steel and Pedro Morales in the process. Plus, and this is the biggest thing for me, Harley Race beat Giant Baba to get back his NWA World Heavyweight title. Twice. If Race could find a way to topple that giant of a man, it's very likely that he, in all his pro wrestling godliness, could figure out a way to beat Umaga.

My vote goes to Harley Race, but I can understand going with Umaga as an upset.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

If we're going by who is the better wrestler, Race wins, and it's not even close.

However, given the kayfabe path I've taken... I'm not sure.

Race was a legitimate bad ass, and that helps. It would need to, given Umaga's absolute domination at the height of his career (which was really short).

As of this moment, I'm giving the edge to Race, if only because he has beaten better guys in their prime. Umaga is a beast and shouldn't be underestimated, but so was Race. Not as big as Umaga, but a legitimate tough guy. We'll see what happens...

 

[AnvilForever]

An interesting matchup. The initial reaction would be to take Umaga because he's, well, a MONSTER. But Harley's always come off to me as resourceful in the ring. He fought King Kong Bundy to a double count-out, even body slamming Bundy at one point. Many of Umaga's losses have come from making a single mistake. A missed wrecking ball, taking too long to perform the finisher, etc. Harley capitalizes on his opponent's mistakes well, and I think that's the deciding factor. Harley Race wins by countering a Samoan Spike or by winning by count-out when Umaga's attempt to flying headbutt him through the announce table fails.

 

[The Brain]

During his peak Umaga was pretty dominant. Unfortunatley for him that peak didn't last very long. He was hot for about a year but once he was finally defeated he became rather ordinary. Race on the other hand was on top for well over a decade and was a multiple time NWA world champion. He is widely regarded as one of the toughest guys to ever step foot in the ring. If Race can take Andre The Giant to a sixty minute draw I'm sure he can handle Umaga.

 

[Shadowmancer]

Taking the Kayfabe stance Race wins this, Race in his prime was world champion, something that Umaga never achieved. Race is considered to be one of the best by a lot of people. He is old school and is a tough SoB. He has matched up with people of similar standing as Umaga wrestling skill wise, in Abdullah the Butcher. Pretty sure Race won quite a few of those matches.

 

[PsychoBlack]

Harley Race would beat Umaga 10 times out of 10. He was the type of talent that rarely evers comes along in this business. Umaga was your typical foreign monster heel that comes along once every few years only to get dominated by the "man" in the company. Race whens this one in a match that turns into an all out brawl.

 

[Johnny Scumm]

No way Umaga (RIP) gets this. It's Harley fucking Race guys. Umaga was tough, very tough in fact, but so was Harley. It's gotta be his win here. I may have only changed my mind if it was under ECW Rules.

JS votes Harley Race

 

[NSL]

I'm going with Race, all day, every day. Umaga was a monster at his height, but Race fought guys bigger, badder, stronger, and tougher than him, and came out on top. It might be a hell of a match, but not one Umaga can win.

 

[The Underking]

Let me tell you a little story.

I was on youtube just about a year ago trying to get me some Old School wrestling to try and see what was so good about it. The one match I watched was Harley Race vs. Ric Flair I think it could have been somebody else. After about a good 9-12 minutes I decided that it sucked ass.

The next match I watched blew me the fuck away at the time I thought Umaga was a barely above average worker then I watched Cena vs. Umaga Last Man Standing. I was thinking respecting the Old School belief was bull those matches suck compared to the ones of today.

Conclusion is Umaga beats Harley Race through the fact he didn't bore me to tears plus the fact he's Stronger, Faster, and a much better overall worker.

Samoan Spike, Three Count, Who's Next for the Samoan Bulldozer.

 

[Tastycles]

I love Umaga, and I think of all the wrestlers that have been around since my return to the fray 4 years ago, he is the most underrated. He lived his character, and little quirks in his actions, like the way he tried to pin people really created this aura. In reality, here was a man that was born in San Francisco, and lived in Texas, yet you cold really buy into his savage gimmick. I really don't think there's been a wrestler to play something as gimmicky as that so convincingly in the last 20 years.

But, being able to play a character well isn't the be all and end all of the professional wrestler. Umaga has never been on top of any company ever. Race was on top of the biggest company for the best part of a decade. Race dominated NWA, the commentators just said Umaga dominated the WWE. He deserves more credit than he'll ever get, but he doesn't deserve to beat one of the industry's biggest ever names.

 

[shattered dreams]

How is Umaga even in this tournament? How does he even have that many votes? I don't get these "kayfabe victor" arguments I have been seeing in various threads. We have all been watching wrestling quite some time, since when does the biggest size guy always win? Since when do crafty heels never win? Sounds more like crapfabe. As best I have ever been able to tell the biggest possible lock for a kayfabe win based on stereotypes is a heel facing someone not on their level. Sure it won't be clean but once again what show have you been watching where the majority of the matches have clean finishes? If Umaga gets another vote it is ridiculous.

 

[The Crock]

Let me tell you a little story.

I was on youtube just about a year ago trying to get me some Old School wrestling to try and see what was so good about it. The one match I watched was Harley Race vs. Ric Flair I think it could have been somebody else. After about a good 9-12 minutes I decided that it sucked ass.

The next match I watched blew me the fuck away at the time I thought Umaga was a barely above average worker then I watched Cena vs. Umaga Last Man Standing. I was thinking respecting the Old School belief was bull those matches suck compared to the ones of today.

Conclusion is Umaga beats Harley Race through the fact he didn't bore me to tears plus the fact he's Stronger, Faster, and a much better overall worker.

Samoan Spike, Three Count, Who's Next for the Samoan Bulldozer.

I'm sorry you can't enjoy a great worker. For fuck's sake, you were watching Ric Flair and Harley Race going toe to toe. They're two of the greatest wrestlers ever, not to mention they put on a match of the fucking year together.

Look, it's not your fault you have the attention span of a goldfish, I understand. I'm sorry you wouldn't allow the wrestlers in front of you to tell a story, I'm sorry that you have to be led through a match to be entertained. That being said, old school matches do not "suck" compared to today's matches. Not by a long shot.

Harley Race wins this match, and even though Umaga had a great, short period of dominance, it's not even close. Harley Race is one of the most legitimately tough wrestlers of all time and has beaten guys that Umaga doesn't even deserve to stand in the ring with. Race is a WWE/WCW/NWA/WON/Pro Wrestling Hall of Famer, not to even mention the fact that he's ranked 8th out of 500 on PWI's all-time best list.

On top of all that, Harley Race not only dominated the NWA territories, but he made an impact in the AWA, WWF, and even Japan. Race was a world wide superstar, in a time where it was not as simple as it is today. Race paid his dues and kicked ass for 30 years, with a legion of loving fans right behind him. Race is just that damn good. Harley Race didn't need to be flashy, he didn't need to be over the top, you just needed to watch him tell you a story. Over the course of his legendary career, Race proved that night in and night out.

I'm utterly stunned that you would have the audacity to call Umaga more entertaining than Race, off of one match. Not only is that statement utterly wrong, but you've never seen his great matches -- classics -- with Funk, Steamboat, Baba, Rhodes, Graham, Tsuruta, Windham, and so on. Your judgement is shallow and downright stupid. Harley Race wouldn't be a legend in this industry, a pioneer even, if he was "boring." He wouldn't be an influence on guys like Triple H if he was "boring" either.

Race was simply an excellent performer. He had a knack for making people look good, which is more than I can say for Umaga -- especially since it was Cena making him look good in the match you cited. From Junkyard Dog to Ric Flair, plenty of people were lucky enough to have Race be their enemy, to be that heel they chased. I would go so far as saying that Flair owes a lot of his early success to Race. Race was literally such a good heel -- a revolutionary one -- that people just HATED him and Flair was in the right place at the right time, at that point. That in and of itself shows Race's impact on wrestling.

From his first day in the industry until his last, Race was as entertaining and tough as they come. He was an excellent in-ring performer and a great mic man -- he was a complete wrestler, an all-around great performer. Even on the downswing of his career in the WWF, he was one of the best they had to offer. Hell, he's done more than Umaga did AFTER his in-ring career was over; Race was a great backstage influence, a great manager, and a good trainer. Race's reputation does not deserve to be tarnished by someone who is absolutely uneducated on the subject.

Vote Race.

[YOUTUBE]4XBbdh1HHKc[/YOUTUBE]​

 

[Hamed786]

Umaga was an amazing big man to watch, always had great matches in my view. Could have gone further and done some good had he not sadly passed away so young. But Harley Race is Harley Race, and he'll win 10 out of 10 times

 

[The Underking]

I'm sorry you can't enjoy a great worker. For fuck's sake, you were watching Ric Flair and Harley Race going toe to toe. They're two of the greatest wrestlers ever, not to mention they put on a match of the fucking year together.

Look, it's not your fault you have the attention span of a goldfish, I understand. I'm sorry you wouldn't allow the wrestlers in front of you to tell a story, I'm sorry that you have to be led through a match to be entertained. That being said, old school matches do not "suck" compared to today's matches. Not by a long shot.

Harley Race wins this match, and even though Umaga had a great, short period of dominance, it's not even close. Harley Race is one of the most legitimately tough wrestlers of all time and has beaten guys that Umaga doesn't even deserve to stand in the ring with. Race is a WWE/WCW/NWA/WON/Pro Wrestling Hall of Famer, not to even mention the fact that he's ranked 8th out of 500 on PWI's all-time best list.

On top of all that, Harley Race not only dominated the NWA territories, but he made an impact in the AWA, WWF, and even Japan. Race was a world wide superstar, in a time where it was not as simple as it is today. Race paid his dues and kicked ass for 30 years, with a legion of loving fans right behind him. Race is just that damn good. Harley Race didn't need to be flashy, he didn't need to be over the top, you just needed to watch him tell you a story. Over the course of his legendary career, Race proved that night in and night out.

I'm utterly stunned that you would have the audacity to call Umaga more entertaining than Race, off of one match. Not only is that statement utterly wrong, but you've never seen his great matches -- classics -- with Funk, Steamboat, Baba, Rhodes, Graham, Tsuruta, Windham, and so on. Your judgement is shallow and downright stupid. Harley Race wouldn't be a legend in this industry, a pioneer even, if he was "boring." He wouldn't be an influence on guys like Triple H if he was "boring" either.

Race was simply an excellent performer. He had a knack for making people look good, which is more than I can say for Umaga -- especially since it was Cena making him look good in the match you cited. From Junkyard Dog to Ric Flair, plenty of people were lucky enough to have Race be their enemy, to be that heel they chased. I would go so far as saying that Flair owes a lot of his early success to Race. Race was literally such a good heel -- a revolutionary one -- that people just HATED him and Flair was in the right place at the right time, at that point. That in and of itself shows Race's impact on wrestling.

From his first day in the industry until his last, Race was as entertaining and tough as they come. He was an excellent in-ring performer and a great mic man -- he was a complete wrestler, an all-around great performer. Even on the downswing of his career in the WWF, he was one of the best they had to offer. Hell, he's done more than Umaga did AFTER his in-ring career was over; Race was a great backstage influence, a great manager, and a good trainer. Race's reputation does not deserve to be tarnished by someone who is absolutely uneducated on the subject.

Vote Race.

[YOUTUBE]4XBbdh1HHKc[/YOUTUBE]​

Legitmately Tough I would bet everything I own on Umaga beating the crap out of Race so there is not point on bringing that up.

Look at the people Umaga has beaten Ric Flair, Triple H, Shawn Micheals, Kane (Over and Over) again. For more modern stars CM Punk and Jeff Hardy both fell to the Samoan Bulldozer.

I'll take the kay fabe approach name one wrestler Harely Race wrestled again who had the weight and agility of Umaga. None how is Race going to beat Umaga if John Cena struggles to pick him up and failed repeatedly no way is Race going to achieve that.

As for the attention span of a Goldfish comment what is that supposed to mean. I can assure you because I don't enjoy watching people like Harley Race doesn't mean jack in life. I would rather watch Umaga take on a bulldozer then watch Harley Race wrestle a match.

Who has Harley Race exactly taught that is some sort of legend, who has inspired, when do you hear Harley Race now a days. The only guy he ever truly helped was Vader and let's put it simply it was Race that was piggy backing off Vader not the other way around. I've never heard of Triple H being inspired by Harley Race and if he did I don't see the similarity at all. I'm sure if Umaga went back to when Harley Race wrestled Umaga would have been a bigger star then Harley would ever be.

I vote for Umaga under the belief that Umaga in three years was twice as entertaining as anything Harley Race ever did in his entire career.

I'll just put this down as a note I'm not tarnishing Race's career by saying that the Modern Day wrestlers are ten times at least more entertaining then those in the past. They got the building blocks for today's more fast pace wrestling from them that said I'm voting for the guy I think was a better WRESTLER and that's Umaga.

 

[The Brain]

Legitmately Tough I would bet everything I own on Umaga beating the crap out of Race so there is not point on bringing that up.

I highly doubt that. What exactly are you basing that on?

Look at the people Umaga has beaten Ric Flair, Triple H, Shawn Micheals, Kane (Over and Over) again. For more modern stars CM Punk and Jeff Hardy both fell to the Samoan Bulldozer.

Harley Race has also beaten Ric Flair, 25 years before Umaga beat a past his prime Flair. Race has beaten plenty of big names too. Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk come to mind. He's also beaten big men such as Giant Baba. None of those names probably mean anything to someone who thinks Umaga stands a chance against Race. By the way, Punk and Hardy would be the type of guy to carry Harley's bags.

I've never heard of Triple H being inspired by Harley Race and if he did I don't see the similarity at all.

You clearly haven't been paying attention.

I'm sure if Umaga went back to when Harley Race wrestled Umaga would have been a bigger star then Harley would ever be.

Excuse me a minute.

Ok, I'm back. I don't even know how Umaga got in this tournament. He is nowhere near Race's league. Umaga wouldn't have even had the mediocre success he had in WWE back in Race's day.

I vote for Umaga under the belief that Umaga in three years was twice as entertaining as anything Harley Race ever did in his entire career.

I'll just put this down as a note I'm not tarnishing Race's career by saying that the Modern Day wrestlers are ten times at least more entertaining then those in the past. They got the building blocks for today's more fast pace wrestling from them that said I'm voting for the guy I think was a better WRESTLER and that's Umaga.

You've done nothing but put down Race. You're likely just showing your age so I can't fault you too much. You just don't know what you're talking about. Umaga had very little success over a brief period of time. Race was dominate and widely regarded as the best in the world for a decade plus.

 

[The Crock]

Legitmately Tough I would bet everything I own on Umaga beating the crap out of Race so there is not point on bringing that up.

Look at the people Umaga has beaten Ric Flair, Triple H, Shawn Micheals, Kane (Over and Over) again. For more modern stars CM Punk and Jeff Hardy both fell to the Samoan Bulldozer.

I'll take the kay fabe approach name one wrestler Harely Race wrestled again who had the weight and agility of Umaga. None how is Race going to beat Umaga if John Cena struggles to pick him up and failed repeatedly no way is Race going to achieve that.

As for the attention span of a Goldfish comment what is that supposed to mean. I can assure you because I don't enjoy watching people like Harley Race doesn't mean jack in life. I would rather watch Umaga take on a bulldozer then watch Harley Race wrestle a match.

Who has Harley Race exactly taught that is some sort of legend, who has inspired, when do you hear Harley Race now a days. The only guy he ever truly helped was Vader and let's put it simply it was Race that was piggy backing off Vader not the other way around. I've never heard of Triple H being inspired by Harley Race and if he did I don't see the similarity at all. I'm sure if Umaga went back to when Harley Race wrestled Umaga would have been a bigger star then Harley would ever be.

I vote for Umaga under the belief that Umaga in three years was twice as entertaining as anything Harley Race ever did in his entire career.

I'll just put this down as a note I'm not tarnishing Race's career by saying that the Modern Day wrestlers are ten times at least more entertaining then those in the past. They got the building blocks for today's more fast pace wrestling from them that said I'm voting for the guy I think was a better WRESTLER and that's Umaga.

Brain covered it all, but it's clear you didn't read my post at all. You talk about who Umaga has beaten, but blatantly ignore Race's more impressive list. I'll take Flair (in his prime), Terry Funk, Giant Baba, Verne Gagne, Dory Funk Jr., Dusty Rhodes, and countless others over Umaga's list. Then, you go on about how Race can't deal with Umaga's size, but Race repeatedly beat Giant Baba, who was 6'10" and weighed 330 lbs.

Race is a legend in and out of that ring. He wrestles circles around Umaga and is a blatantly better wrestler. Clearly, you've never seen any of Race's stuff (other than 8 minutes of a match on Youtube), so while I don't fault you for that, I DO fault you for making a foolish argument for Umaga. This tournament is about determining the best wrestler, and frankly, Umaga can't shine Race's shoes.

Honestly though, other than a few Intercontinental Championships, what did Umaga accomplish? Nothing. Harley Race was THE man in the NWA, when that still meant something. Not only that, but he was an 8-time NWA World Heavyweight Champion -- he was the first man to break Lou Thesz's record of reigns. Harley Race is so far out of Umaga's league that it's not even funny.

 

[Shadowmancer]

Lets put it this Way, Harley Race set the benchmark for number of Title Reigns. It is still the benchmark. Think about the number of greats that haven't reached that benchmark. Umaga never even took a step on the road to meeting that Benchmark.

 

[pipebomber]

sure umaga was unstopable, but there were plenty of unstopable people in Harley Races day, and he over came them.. Harley Race is one of the greatest this business has ever seen... gotta go with harley race

 

[PsychoBlack]

Let me tell you a little story.

I was on youtube just about a year ago trying to get me some Old School wrestling to try and see what was so good about it. The one match I watched was Harley Race vs. Ric Flair I think it could have been somebody else. After about a good 9-12 minutes I decided that it sucked ass.

The next match I watched blew me the fuck away at the time I thought Umaga was a barely above average worker then I watched Cena vs. Umaga Last Man Standing. I was thinking respecting the Old School belief was bull those matches suck compared to the ones of today.

Conclusion is Umaga beats Harley Race through the fact he didn't bore me to tears plus the fact he's Stronger, Faster, and a much better overall worker.

Samoan Spike, Three Count, Who's Next for the Samoan Bulldozer.

I guess its my turn now. You watching 9-12 minutes of Ric flair and Harley Race means nothing the matches they had typically went 30 minutes to an hour with a methodical buildup having the ending make perfect sense some would call it art. Now to mention John Cena and Umaga's last man standing match as being better than anything involving Harley Race and Ric Flair in the same ring should have your fan card taken away.

Now you say Harley Race bores you to tears? He may have been one of the most interesting men to ever step into the squared circle. He didn't need glitz or glamour, he didn't need to yell and scream. All he needed was his calm mellow voice simply stating that he was the best. HHH and Randy Orton both patterned their styles after him and neither of those men are the least bit boring. Umaga on the other hand was a Samoan monster heel. The character has been played better before him and it will be played better after him. Nothing about him was unique.

Now for me to just show how stupid you are. Umaga never sniffed a world title in an era where title changes occur quite frequently and during no point in his career was he ever "the" guy. Race on the other hand was an 8 time world champion in an era where it was hard for most of the top guys to even receive one reign with the belt. He was also the first United States Champion not to mention the fact that he's one of only a handful of people to be inducted into every major Pro wrestling hall of fame that there is. Umaga was a two time intercontinental champion (one of those time he lost the belt to Santino) in a period where the belt seemed to be changing once every couple of months. Umaga will also be no where anyone's hall of fame ever for a lack of success.

The impact on the business that Race had can be seen today along side the likes of Hogan Flair Austin and a handful of other legends. Umaga on the other hand will have no impact on the business 20 years from now. Race sits on the Mount Rushmore of wrestling while Umaga stood behind HHH, John Cena, Edge, Batista, Randy Orton, Shawn Michaels, Shelton Benjamin, RVD, Bobby Lashley and plenty more superstars during his lackluster "prime" if that is what you want to call his short run as a singles competitor.


P.S. You give young fans a bad name.

 

[Don1978]

Harley Race is gonna win this one! One of the all time best world heavyweight champions in the business!

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

Harley Race is well known as one of the toughest men in the history of the business, and one of the most successful champions of all time.

He travelled around the US taking on all challengers, and will surely have faced monster heels as big and strong as Umaga, as well as defeating the likes of Ric Flair who are far greater talents than Umaga.

Race faced the cream of the crop in the NWA, so what makes anyone think he would be defeated by a thumb to the throat? He wouldnt, simple as.

Race wins this one.

 

[Larry]

Against popular demand I'd take Umaga any day over Harley Race. I don't give a shit about his kayfabe accomplishments, his overblown "Legend", or how great his matches are to some folks. Looking at it in any way realistically, Harley Race wouldn't stand a chance against Umaga. Just because Umaga doesn't have the same accolades to his resume, doesn't mean that he couldn't beat Harley Race in any way. Cut your own criteria to make your argument fit the mold, but plain and simple, Harley Race is physically outmatched. He's not as quick, agile, or as powerful, and Umaga is a much more aggressive opponent than Harley Race has ever been accustomed to facing. Umaga isn't going to methodically wear you down over the course of a 30-60 minute match, he's going to brutalize you in no time flat with an oppressive offense. Harley Race wouldn't know what hit him. I'll take the Samoan Bulldozer over Tricycle Race in devastating fashion.