Sure you never said anything about not allowing anybody who wrestled before 1980 being undeserving but since you've done nothing but bury the best of the 70s you've pretty much implied it.
I never implied anything, nor have I buried the best of the 70's. I've simply argued against the ridiculous hype-job in favor of Harley Race who is completely over rated by drooling fanboys here. If you didn't notice I was actually praising Terry Funk quite highly, and I've supported other guys that aren't exactly "New School" either. Get your story straight.
You think he has only a couple notable wins in his entire career yet he won the most important title in the world on multiple occasions and was on top of the NWA for years. What impressive wins does RVD have that match that?
Sure, he won the NWA title at a time when wrestling wasn't nearly as big as it became after Vince McMahon made it a mainstream product, with only a couple other big players to hand the belt around to, and he wasn't "on top of the NWA" for years either. He had 4 years where he was a real dominant guy holding the title, and he was beaten by Dusty Rhodes, Giant Baba, and Tommy Rich even then. He was a big player but even in his own time there were plenty of guys who eclipsed him. Without looking it up, can you even tell me about those multiple title wins? No, you can't. They weren't really that significant, because the NWA wasn't as significant as the folks involved would have you believe. The CWC/WWWF/WWF was still the biggest promotion/territory back then and didn't need the NWA to be the premiere organization nationally and abroad. They had a real bruiser in Bruno Sammartino.
As far as what wins RVD has that are as impressive, you ask what wins does he have, allow me answer? For starters, during the majority of his tenure in the WWE he was in the main event title picture.Triple H was never able to beat him clean and he does hold a victory over Ric Flair.
In ECW He's had multiple impressive matches with:
Sabu
Tommy Dreamer
Sandman
Taz
Bam Bam Bigelow
Shane Douglas
Jerry Lynn
Chris Candido, and other various ECW stars there.
In the WWE he's beat
Chris Jericho
Jeff Hardy
Booker T
Eddie Guerrero
Brock Lesnar
Chris Benoit
Big Show
William Regal
Kane
Christian
Matt Hardy
Edge
John Cena
in and Extreme Rules Match,
Randy Orton,
and all of those wins are either for titles or defending titles.
On to TNA, he's beat
Sting in his debut
The Band (Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, and Sean Waltman)
AJ Styles for the TNA championship
Abyss
Jeff Hardy
Mr. Anderson
Tommy Dreamer
Sabu
Rhino
Matt Hardy
Christopher Daniels
and at the moment he is the #1 contender for the TNA title after beating Mr. Anderson and Jeff Hardy in a triple threat match, and I'm probably missing some other notable matches as well.
So, unless you are ignorantly going to downplay his resume of beating champion after champion, HOF'ers, Future HOF'ers, and so on, how does Harley Race even compare? Look at that list of names, it far outweighs the few notable names on Race's resume. Keep in mind, none of this even covers his extensive tag team career where he's won titles left and right as well. Lets not for get that he's a Triple Crown winner in both ECW and WWE, as well as being a Grand Slam Champion in the WWE, PWI ranked him #1 of the top 500 singles wrestlers in the PWI 500 in 2002, Comeback of the Year in 2001 and 2010, Most Popular Wrestler of the Year in 2001 and 2002, he was recognized by Pro Wrestling Report for Match of the Year in 2006 for his match vs. John Cena at ECW One Night Stand II as well.
This has to be the single worst argument I've read throughout this entire tournament. It is also a desperation argument. This thing work both ways genius. Brace yourself for some shocking news. All of RVD's matches have been predetermined too. He never REALLY beat anybody either. Seriously, how could you be this bad?
It's not a ridiculous argument, it fits within the context of the conversation with the way you folks try to hold up Harley Race, like his matches were real victories or something or more significant BECAUSE it was him winning them in a different time when wrestling was sold to people as being more real.
It has been duly noted? Really?
Yes, Coco and JMT both covered it rather well, I didn't need to reiterate what they already said as they said it rather well.
Harley Race was on top of the NWA for years. Back in Harley's day the NWA traveled the world defending his title against the top talent in every region. He faced the best from every promotion there was. RVD didn't even face the best in ECW and was far from the best in WWE.
And that means what? I've already noted that the NWA wasn't even the end all be all of it's time so why do you keep acting like he was a God amongst men? So what he was a big player in the NWA, compared to the WWE where RVD has been a dual champion the NWA is insignificat. BTW, the WWE and TNA both tour world wide as well. If you look at the list of names I provided above you'll see that you are clearly wrong about him not facing the best in ECW or the WWE as well, as he clearly DID face the best in both promotions, and continues to face the best in TNA. He was also THEE best in WWE at one time as signified by his crowning as both ECW and WWE champion so you're wrong there too.
This might be the first of many times I say this because for some reason you can't seem to comprehend it. We are not asking if the Harley Race of 2012 would beat the RVD of 2012. Judge Harley based on his prime. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?
I am judging him in his prime but you keep missing the point. This is 2012, the time at which the WZ Tournament is taking place, and in 2012 after a whole other history of wrestling has taken place, the things he did in the 60's 70's or 80's isn't nearly as significant as it was at the time, and it wasn't even the most significant of the goings on AT that time. You are also guilty of the very thing you accuse me of, you keep trying to stick only to what RVD did in ECW and downplay that, completely ignoring the rest of his career.
Of course he's old enough to be your grandfather. That is irrelevant. To think you could find any random guy in a bar that could beat the hell out of Harley in the 70s is laughable. Even if you could that has nothing to do with this match.
It's not irrelevant, it point to the fact that he fails in even the most simple, basic, and superficial of criteria, that being "The Look". And, my point about being able to find any random guy in a bar that could kick his ass is far from laughable, it's a reality, and it does have everything to do with this match as it serves as an example that he wasn't the "Man's man, bad ass, tough guy" in reality that he was made to be by his own crowing. He may have been able to bullshit and buffalo a lot of people into believing he WAS, but as I said, bullshit, I can find a tough guy anywhere that could beat his ass. That is also significant because above all else he wasn't some diamond in the rough, he was a dime a dozen "tough guy", a completely uninteresting unoriginal character that couldn't stand the test of time, as history has shown.
Harley was believable. Not to a noob like you who think wrestlers have to look like movie stars to be believable. In Harley's day you didn't have to look like you wanted to be on the cover of a magazine. You just had to look like you could kick some ass. Harley looked like he could kick some ass. He wasn't going to do any fancy flips. He was just going to beat the hell out of you.
That's a nice story and all, but "looks" do matter, not just physique but "The Look", and that was my point, he looks like my grandfather out there in his underwear which isn't bad ass at all, isn't intimidating, and in actuality looks fucking ridiculous. Put him next to Bruno Sammartino and tell me who looks like the real fucking mauler here okay.
I know about Harley's day, that's because I'm not a fucking noob, I've been following wrestling my entire life of almost 30 years. I've studied the history of the business quite extensively. Obviously you haven't. I was trained to be a wrestler by a guy who learned from Harley Race himself down in Missouri and Dory Funk Jr (see Gage Octane). I've actually been in a ring, been in a match, and done the damn thing. I've set up chairs, rings, equipment, run security, helped with booking and creative decisions, promos, and just about everything else you could do. Don't come to someone with actual experience in the business, with extensive knowledge of the business and try to call them a noob in any sense. I'm far from a noob here on wrestlezone as well, you just don't know any better.
Harley didn't travel from place to place because he got stale. He did it because he was the best and he was in demand. Again you bring up his age. You just keep making a fool of yourself. You must think Rex Grossman is a better quarterback than Joe Montana was because Montana is old now.
That's the point, he never stayed in one spot too long, and the NWA did that so that guys like him didn't get stale. Put this in contrast to RVD who has stayed in the same place numerous times without getting stale and we see who the superior is, RVD. Race wasn't the best for one, and he was only in demand because he held the title, as was anyone else who held the title. Your little Rex Grossman/Joe Montana comment also just shows how far off the radar you are as it pertains to what I am saying and where I stand.
You're questioning his size now? It's not like RVD is a giant. What in RVD's arsenal could Race not combat? A guy like Race would laugh at RVD and all his wasted motion and pointless flips and just pop him in the mouth.
Again you're playing fantasy when I'm firmly grounded in reality. It doesn't matter that RVD isn't a giant, he's beat bigger, tougher, stronger opponents. As far as what Race couldn't combat in RVD's arsenal, I submit the whole F'n thing. He's too fast, deceptively strong, his aerial maneuvers would be too much for Race to combat as he's never faced anything like it, and being in an extreme rules match he's completely out of his element.
HARLEY RACE IS NOT A WRESTLER IN 2012. Do you understand that? If Rob Van Dam walked into a ring in 1976 he wouldn't look like a wrestler either. He'd be looked at as some gymnastic pretty boy that the real men would wipe the mat with. Race's look was prefectly suitable for the time in which he competed.
At what point did I make any kind of inference that Harley Race was a wrestler in 2012. I already explained, this tournament takes place here and now in 2012, a time with different standard, higher standards, and someone like him doesn't stand the test of time here. You say if RVD walked into a ring in 1976 he's be looked at as some gymnastic pretty boy that the "Real Men" would wipe the man with. I say you're fucking delusional. He'd have probably been an even bigger star then because his style is light-years ahead of theirs, he does have a better look, and his style is far more aesthetically pleasing as well which would have flipped peoples shit back then, just like it has since he came around. Race's look may have been suitable then because they had lower standards, but it isn't now, and that plays into his believability against a guy like RVD, which is shot upon first glance.
They used chairs and crashed through tables because they had to. They couldn't get over without it.
Yes, I know, you've made it very clear that you simply have an anti-ECW agenda and you look down on them for doing things that a lot of other guys simply didn't have the balls to do. That's fine, but it takes away no relevance of what they accomplished, the fact that a number of guys became so significant there that both the WWF and WCW felt they were must have guys, and that RVD was one of them, but chose to stay until ECW was purchased outright by WWE. It also takes away none of the significance of his fandom in ECW, the caliber of his matches, or his overall legacy in professional wrestling.
Race could use weapons. He has used weapons before. He didn't need to but if the situation called for it, like it does now, he wouldn't have a problem adapting. Did you see how he beat the hell out of one of the most sadistic wrestlers ever in a video posted earlier?
Yeah I saw that, but anyone can simply USE weapons, it's another thing entirely to be a specialist in using weapons like RVD and that is the big difference here, along with the fact that they were used all the time, consistently in ECW, where Harley Race as you yourself said only used them "If the situation called for it". I also did see the video with Abby, but Coco and JMT both wrecked that argument so I need not address it now.
Now you've given me something to think about. I may have to reconsider Race's entire hall of fame career because you don't like his name.
Just an off the cuff comment.
You obviously don't care that he beat Terry Funk or anybody else. You're just voting against him because you didn't care for the fashion trends of the 70s.
Yep that's it, I didn't like 70's fashion so that's the basis of my whole argument. Do you huff paint or glue or something? Are you fucking serious? Yeah, those are great wins in his resume, and the wins that make him even considerable for this tournament, but looking at the two resumes, the time periods, the stipulations, comparing the two as athletes and entertainers, RVD is head over heels better overall than Harley Race, and goes over easily in this match setting.
You clearly don't know because your entire argument against Race is his age and how he isn't a star in 2012.
That's not true at all, you are just ignoring a lot of my argument because you don't like what I have to say, and I say "tough shit". I'm not getting at him SIMPLY for his age, but you're apparently too dense to see past that, and aren't comprehending my sentiments regarding him being judged by modern standards.
So if you were born in the 40s you would have been a multi time NWA heavyweight champion and headlined wrestling shows all over the world? Sorry we had to miss out on that. Just think if you were older we could be talking about you vs. RVD in this tournament. By the way, I bet Harley would kick your ass today. Yes I mean the Harley of 2012.
First of all, I am a trained wrestler and I wasn't bullshitting when I said I could go the pace of his matches move for move, hold for hold, spot for spot, and that's because in wrestling shape I am a better conditioned athlete, tuned to wrestle at a faster more intense pace. I never said that if I were born in a different time I would be a multi-time NWA champion and all that, but I was making the point that he simply couldn't last at the pace that RVD can set for him because he isn't as fit by a long shot. You simply had no meaningful response to all that because you know it's true, so you tried to revert something back onto me as if it changed the fact that I am right. And BTW, I'd kick Harley Race's ass in 2012, he's almost 70 years old for Christ sake. Not that I'd try to, I'm not a piece of shit like that, but he wouldn't have a chance.
That Vandaminator never made any sense to me. How stupid did it look when RVD threw a chair to his opponent? I have the perfect counter. Drop the damn chair or throw it back in his face. I bet Harley would have figured that out too. Please give me a list of people that RVD beat that were in Race's league.
I provided the list above, and the Vandaminator has worked against countless opponents, Race would likely be no different. I'm not going to make up a bunch of fantastic scenarios where everything RVD does is masterful and flawless like you do though as it pertains to Harley Race. Your blind support and made up scenarios are pathetic and make you look like an idiot. That's the kind of shit little kids do.
What does that even mean?
You said it was "a tournament to determine the greatest of all time", and I said "yeah, as determined in 2012" pointing to the fact that it takes place here and now, in a time where standards are different and higher, a lot more has happened since his time, and the game of the average wrestler has stepped quite far up from back then. It's a the greatest of all time, as determined in 2012.
So now you're saying we shouldn't post in here. Although I see you found it necessary to come post for RVD. Actually you really haven't posted for RVD. You've just posted against Harley Race because you can't possibly comprehend that wrestling existed before you were born. Nothing good ever took place until you came around to witness it for yourself, right?
For someone who calls themselves "The Brain" you sure seem to be lacking in that department. I never said that anyone shouldn't post anywhere, you keep pulling ridiculous shit out of thin air. This entire last paragraph you wrote was all fabricated shit you used to slander me. That's fine, I can play hardball too, but you've completely made all that shit up, all of it is completely unfounded, and makes no sense in regards to anything I DID say.
Folks, don't be swayed by the puffery of fanboys looking to reanimate fossils into creatures they never actually were. Harley Race in his time was a big player, he is considered to a legend of the business in some circles, but reality always overcomes legend. The reality here is that the old timer is out of his element, going against something and someone he could have never even fathomed facing. He is an inferior athlete in every way, comparing the resumes, he doesn't have as many accolades and accomplishments to his career that RVD does, nor has he beat as much top shelf competition as RVD. The answer here is simple and obvious. Don't be a fool, vote for RVD
