ECW Denver, Round 3, Match 1: #4 Big Van Vader vs. #13 Lex Luger

[Tastycles]

I completely see your point, and I do agree that Brody was at fault not Luger, but to be honest I thought it was a tenuous point when I made it.

As for the WCW thing, I defintely think it was a case of right place right time, but I can't hold that against him.

However, please don't insult my intelligence by saying that I am voting for Vader because IC25 likes him. I have absolutely no reason to follow IC blindly, as proved by my voting for the Big Show in the other match in this round where he is pushing his opponent. I decided on this before IC had made an argument. If you want to see people following others blindly, perhaps you should take a look at some of the people following your lead elsewhere. I don't drink anyone's kool aid but my own, thanks.

I am voting for Vader, because in my opinion, Luger would lose. The only two superheavyweights he has fought in high profile matches are The Giant and Yokozuna. He beat Yokozuna by countout at Summerslam and lost at WrestleMania, but countouts don't count in ECW. He lost to The Giant during their feud in 1996.

I'll be honest and say that my personal dislike for Luger has in part caused me to vote for Vader, but I think there is a strong enough case for supporting Vader to merit doing so.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

The IC kool-aid is so thick it makes me nauseous.

The fact that YOU of all people pulled this bullshit out of the hat sickens ME. What I have done with Vader is no different than what you have done with Hogan and Cena, turning the tide and uncovering unbridled skill. It's a cheap out, and one I feel is FAR below you. Thank you for proving me wrong.

Vader is good, no doubt, but better than the Total Package? What a laugh. I was tempted to not even post in this thread since the outcome is pretty much decided, but I felt I had to get this out.

I am also shocked that you rate Luger so highly. A guy who did not sell well and generally was an issue in the ring - almost more of a liability than anything else.

Vader is a fucking tool compared to Lex Luger. I mean, I know he was big in Japan and all, but what exactly did he accomplish in America, which last time I checked, is where this tournament takes place.

So just because the tournament takes PLACE in America means that the accomplishments he had in Japan and Mexico are irrelevant? Are you kidding me? What type of ethnocentric babble-bullshit is that? If a world-reknowned Japanese Car Marketer applies for a position with Ford, doesn't Ford take into account what this person has accomplished overseas? Doesn't it go on a resume?

In the United States, Vader is a three-time WCW World Heavyweight Champion. Each of his reigns lasted 21, 71, and 285 days, respectively. Lex Luger is a 2-time WCW World Heavyweight Champion whose reigns lasted 230 days and 5 days, respectively.

Furthermore, Vader is a former WCW United States Champion (as is Luger) who never lost the title - he was stripped of the US Title after the backstage issue with Orndorff. Luger, I will give him credit, is one of the best US Champions in history. He was great at being #2. Awesome.

What, he was World Champion of WCW at a time that NO ONE watched them, and they were hemorrhaging money worse than ECW in 2000? Yeah, I'll pass on that.

I damn sure watched WCW in the early 90's. Many fans did. They lost money because of the management and marketing, not the talent. Just because you only watched the promotions that had to do with Hulk Hogan doesn't mean other people weren't fans too. Vader dominated WCW at a time when men such as Sting, Flair, Simmons, Luger, Windham, and Anderson were around and in or close to their primes. The future of WCW was partially build on Vader's back.

But, let's just look at his great WWF run shall we? No, we shan't because it never happened. In fact, the most memorable part of his WWF run was getting yelled at and embarrassed by Shawn Michaels at Summerslam '96, in one of the worst main-events in wrestling history.

Wait a second, are you serious? First of all, the WWF run was after Vader's prime. Second, Shawn screwed that feud up, not Vader. Vader is a known stiff worker - he's tougher in the ring and expects his opponents to be tough. Shawn ran to Vince, whining and crying about Vader's stiff work, resulting in Shawn demanding that Vince tell Vader to work softer or be fired.

Even despite being past Vader's true prime, he still hold pinfall victories over Michaels, Ahmed Johnson, and The Undertaker in the WWF.

Let's compare that to Lex Luger. Here's a guy that was MEGA over in both WCW and WWF. A guy who was asked to be a franchise player in both the WWF and WCW.

Loads of steroid-induced freaks have gotten over despite lacking in-ring skill. And in both cases, he was "mega-over" because of the heels he worked with, not because of his own efforts. Don't get me wrong - I like Lex Luger. He's not in Vader's league, not close, but I like him. Despite liking him, I am also able to recognize that he was built on the point of a needle.

And if Luger hadn't gotten drunk and hadn't left the WWF, he would have been a World Champion in both WWF and WCW, two companies that are far greater than the miserable ECW was.

And if I hadn't been born average height, I'd try out for WWE. Shoulda, woulda, coulda. If Ludvig Borga hadn't hurt his ankle vs Rick Steiner, he'd have beaten Luger for the WWF Title. But guess what? Despite being pushed to the moon in the WWF, he failed to win the WWF Title from Yokozuna.

Lex Luger was a top rate face, and a top of the line heel.

Luger was a top face in WWF, an average face in WCW, and a below average heel in WWF. "The Narcissist" was a failed attempt at a major heel, and his only feud was a missed opportunity with Mr. Perfect. And his biggest face run was in the WWF where he was basically told to be Hulk Hogan, who had just left. Luger didn't earn new fans, he simply inherited Hogan's, and most of them just wound up with Bret hart anyway.

He was loved and hated, even at the same time. He was a bad guy that people cheered because he still did the right thing sometimes. His character in WCW in the mid 90s was VERY complex and he pulled it off wonderfully.

Wait, I am confused, aren't YOU the one always telling people that heels that get cheered and faces that get booed are often not doing their jobs? Big Van Vader was HATED. He was a heel. That was his job. Fans not only hated him, they also feared him, because he could destroy your favorite guy. Sting was a prime example.

Find me an instance where people EVER reacted like that for Vader. Good luck.

Dude, after Vader defeated Antonio Inoki at the Sumo Hall, a riot ensued. A RIOT. Luger never caused a riot. The result of Vader's win? NJPW was banned from the Sumo Hall for 2 years.

[youtube]uSI5aQIHFQo[/youtube]

Thanks for the luck, but I didn't need it. The reaction was easy to find.

 

[Slyfox696]

The fact that YOU of all people pulled this bullshit out of the hat sickens ME. What I have done with Vader is no different than what you have done with Hogan and Cena, turning the tide and uncovering unbridled skill. It's a cheap out, and one I feel is FAR below you. Thank you for proving me wrong.

As I explained in my PM and rep, it's a shame you don't understand the point of a debate better.

I am also shocked that you rate Luger so highly. A guy who did not sell well and generally was an issue in the ring - almost more of a liability than anything else.

Why wouldn't I rate Luger highly? He's one of the best professional wrestlers in the last 20-30 years, and it's a shame so many people dismiss his abilities simply because of the way he looked.

So just because the tournament takes PLACE in America means that the accomplishments he had in Japan and Mexico are irrelevant?

Isn't that the whole point of home turf? If not, then why are we bothering with having the different regions at all? I mean, are you telling me that every athlete performs the same at every venue he competes in?

Are you kidding me? What type of ethnocentric babble-bullshit is that? If a world-reknowned Japanese Car Marketer applies for a position with Ford, doesn't Ford take into account what this person has accomplished overseas? Doesn't it go on a resume?

Good point...except we're not talking about cars, we're talking about competitive performance. Take the 2001 Barry Bonds for example. He had a .328 batting average and hit 73 HRs. But, he only had 1 HR in 35 ABs, and hit .114 at Dodger Stadium. Location matters to an athlete. There are certain places where you feel more comfortable than others, and it's clear that Vader was never that comfortable in America, since he was never successful in America, outside of the time when he was on top of company that was bleeding money and had very little talent.

I damn sure watched WCW in the early 90's. Many fans did.

If by "many" you mean "very few" then sure.

They lost money because of the management and marketing, not the talent.

They lost money because Vader as a main-eventer didn't draw.

Just because you only watched the promotions that had to do with Hulk Hogan doesn't mean other people weren't fans too.

And yet, when Hogan went to WCW in mid '94, WCW popularity jumped immensely, in terms of money coming into the promotion and PPV buyrates. Now, I know we're not comparing Vader and Hogan, but it's clear that it wasn't just "management and marketing" that was the problem...it was also the fact that people didn't care about Vader.

The future of WCW was partially build on Vader's back.

I think you're starting to delude yourself. Vader's run in WCW wasn't the foretelling of the future, it was the etching of the tombstone that was about to be laid at WCW's grave. If it wasn't for Hogan signing with WCW, and Lex Luger's surprising appearance at the first Monday Night Nitro, then WCW would have died.

Wait a second, are you serious? First of all, the WWF run was after Vader's prime.

Vader's prime was three years? Not much of a prime then...

Second, Shawn screwed that feud up, not Vader. Vader is a known stiff worker - he's tougher in the ring and expects his opponents to be tough. Shawn ran to Vince, whining and crying about Vader's stiff work, resulting in Shawn demanding that Vince tell Vader to work softer or be fired.

What the heck are you talking about? Vader was in the WWF for what...three years or so? And the most memorable part of his WWF run was being yelled at in the ring by Shawn Michaels, because he wouldn't get his fat ass out of the way like he was supposed to.

Surely IC, you are better at reading comprehension than that.

Loads of steroid-induced freaks have gotten over despite lacking in-ring skill.

Like who? The fact is, being over is the ultimate definition of skill. Because fans don't care about people they can't connect with and don't find interesting. And since the name of the game is about being interesting, then the fact that guys like Luger were mega over is an example of their skill.

And in both cases, he was "mega-over" because of the heels he worked with, not because of his own efforts.

He was a heel during his first title run, and was a hot heel. How was that because of heels that he didn't work with? You're not making sense IC.

Don't get me wrong - I like Lex Luger. He's not in Vader's league

I agree. He was far beyond it.

And if I hadn't been born average height, I'd try out for WWE. Shoulda, woulda, coulda.

I think this is what you always like to call "mist and windows". Completely irrelevant arguments because you know you have nothing to defeat the much stronger argument.

The fact of the matter is that Lex Luger was BOOKED to win the WWF title. If he had not gotten drunk and told people he was going to be champion, then he would have been champion.

Wait, I am confused, aren't YOU the one always telling people that heels that get cheered and faces that get booed are often not doing their jobs?

When Luger came back to WCW, he wasn't a full fledged heel though. He was a heel by most standards, but due to his friendship with the ultra babyface Sting, he also had face tendencies. It was a VERY complicated character, and one that we just don't get to see anymore. And Luger pulled it off so VERY well. You say you watched WCW in the early and mid 90s, then you should understand what I'm talking about.

Dude, after Vader defeated Antonio Inoki at the Sumo Hall, a riot ensued. A RIOT. Luger never caused a riot. The result of Vader's win? NJPW was banned from the Sumo Hall for 2 years.

[youtube]uSI5aQIHFQo[/youtube]

Thanks for the luck, but I didn't need it. The reaction was easy to find.

Wow, epic fail. Where was the reaction? I just saw people sitting in their seats. As for the riot which happened later, are you SURE that was because Vader won? It had nothing to do with the fact that fans were upset that Inoki had already had a match earlier that evening and that the biggest name in Japanese wrestling had just gotten squashed?

No, surely that had nothing to do with it. It was totally because of a guy who had just worked his first match, and was met with very little reaction throughout the match.

Seriously IC, you're better than this. Here's the facts:

Luger > Vader.

That's it.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Swing and a miss, Sly.

Sinking to accusing posters of backing Vader because I back Vader is cheap and ludicrous. I don't go around telling people that if they back Hogan or Cena, they are only doing so because they want to appease you. That would be grossly unfair first to Hogan and Cena, because that's belittling their accomplishments. Second, that would be grossly unfair to you and your research and ability to communicate the accomplishments of these men.

Now I wouldn't shit on you like that. And I certainly didn't expect it from you. You call it a "debate technique." I call it a cop-out.

But either way, that's that. You know how I feel about that crap.

Isn't that the whole point of home turf? If not, then why are we bothering with having the different regions at all? I mean, are you telling me that every athlete performs the same at every venue he competes in?

Great point. Home turf. This match takes place in Denver, Colorado. The sub region is in Vader's HOME TURF. And unlike many locations, this home-field advantage carries the effects of thinner air at high altitude. So sure, Sly, home turf it is. Vader wins.

Good point...except we're not talking about cars, we're talking about competitive performance. Take the 2001 Barry Bonds for example. He had a .328 batting average and hit 73 HRs. But, he only had 1 HR in 35 ABs, and hit .114 at Dodger Stadium. Location matters to an athlete.

First of all, thank you. I know it was a good point. Second of all, let's take your parallel. When Bonds stepped in to L.A., sure he may not have performed AS WELL in hostile territory. But you are ignoring two major points.

1) L.A. Pitching still feared Bonds. The fact that he didn't play as well in L.A. didn't mean he wasn't still a feared hitter, or that he was still a threat. He drew 177 walks that year - 68 intentional. Do you really think no pitcher ever walked Barry in L.A.? Just because his overwhelming success wasn't in the Los Angeles ball park doesn't mean they threw his accomplishments out the window when he came to visit. Hulk Hogan was a threat when he wrestled ANYWHERE in the late 80's and Early 90's, even when he wasn't in Madison Square Garden.

2) Apples to Oranges. The size of the ring in Japan and the size of an ECW ring are, to my knowledge, the same. Baseball parks are all different sizes. Some are stadiums, some are domes. Some are hitters parks, some are pitchers parks. As far as Vader is concerned, he's still in a square ring with ropes, and his moves still work. The only difference? He's in his home state.

There are certain places where you feel more comfortable than others, and it's clear that Vader was never that comfortable in America, since he was never successful in America, outside of the time when he was on top of company that was bleeding money and had very little talent.

Wow, he won three World Titles in a country he's supposedly "not comfortable in." I wish I were that awesome in a place I wasn't comfortable. He was damn sure successful in America, he's a three time World Champion and was a dominant athlete in WCW. He holds a winning record against Sting. Not too shabby.

As usual, you are placing ALL of your emphasis on drawing ability and fan reaction. The fun of this tournament is looking at who would legitimately win if wrestling were real. Otherwise, what would be the point? Every year's Final Four would be Hogan, Austin, Flair, and maybe Hart. But those guys lost sometimes too.

I know you are using the same argument here (top guy with a company bleeding money, etc.) that you use against Shawn Michaels (WWF Champ during the near-fatal Monday Night Wars period), but what I am going off of is Vader's total body of work, not just his ability to draw in the United States. If that were our job in this tournament, it'd be as boring as half your posts.

And yet, when Hogan went to WCW in mid '94, WCW popularity jumped immensely, in terms of money coming into the promotion and PPV buyrates. Now, I know we're not comparing Vader and Hogan, but it's clear that it wasn't just "management and marketing" that was the problem...it was also the fact that people didn't care about Vader.

Not sure what the point of bringing Hogan in here was.

You also have to concede that a big problem was the time slotting. WCW could really only be seen on Saturday and Sunday nights at 6:05 pm. You point to Hogan's arrival as the turning point for WCW, which I understand, but take into account what getting the Prime Tme slots did as well. Vader carried WCW with all his might in a company that wasn't being pushed by Ted Turner yet.

I think you're starting to delude yourself. Vader's run in WCW wasn't the foretelling of the future, it was the etching of the tombstone that was about to be laid at WCW's grave. If it wasn't for Hogan signing with WCW, and Lex Luger's surprising appearance at the first Monday Night Nitro, then WCW would have died.

Luger's appearance had nothing to do with Luger.

I know that sounds odd, but let me explain. The night Luger showed up on the fledgeline Nitro show, it served two purposes, neither of which had a thing to do with Luger himself.

1) it sent a message that anything could happen on the Monday Night show, and that it wasn't just another series of predictable matches. It could have been ANYONE, Luger or anyone else, and it would have had the same "I didn't expect to see HIM" value.

2) the shock value was in the fact that Luger had appeared on WWF programming the night before. THAT is why people were shocked. Same with Jarrett after losing to Chyna. Again, had it been almost anyone else, it would have had a similar effect. Granted, Luger was a big name to do that, but it was still not Luger's presence - it was the shock value. Scott Hall and Kevin Nash - THAT was impressive, and moreover driven by those individuals.

What the heck are you talking about? Vader was in the WWF for what...three years or so? And the most memorable part of his WWF run was being yelled at in the ring by Shawn Michaels, because he wouldn't get his fat ass out of the way like he was supposed to.

Dig deeper. Many accounts of what I mentioned. Just like Sid Vicious didn't want to get knife chopped by Chris Benoit and threatened to not wrestle if he hit them - Michaels wanted Vader to lighten up on his maneuvers, and ran to Vince with threats.

Like who? The fact is, being over is the ultimate definition of skill. Because fans don't care about people they can't connect with and don't find interesting. And since the name of the game is about being interesting, then the fact that guys like Luger were mega over is an example of their skill.

Ultimate Warrior. Dino Bravo. Billy Graham. Guys who were over on their freakish, steroid induced physiques. But whatever - I actually don't care as much about the roids, and I don't want to discount the charisma of guys like Warrior or even Luger because of that. It's a slap in their face. Hell, I'd have a hard time finding ANYONE from before 2005 who didn't roid up at one time or another, right?

But again, I don't come into this tournament just looking for the most over or the biggest draw. I think fantasy match-ups and who would win the match.

I think this is what you always like to call "mist and windows". Completely irrelevant arguments because you know you have nothing to defeat the much stronger argument.

The fact of the matter is that Lex Luger was BOOKED to win the WWF title. If he had not gotten drunk and told people he was going to be champion, then he would have been champion.

The term is "Smoke and Mirrors," and it's really not that at all. You're telling me Luger would have been champion. I am telling you he wasn't, and that's what I have to go off of. Even if he did become WWF Champion, he was also booked to drop that same belt soon thereafter to Ludvig Borga. But none of it every happened.

When Luger came back to WCW, he wasn't a full fledged heel though. He was a heel by most standards, but due to his friendship with the ultra babyface Sting, he also had face tendencies. It was a VERY complicated character, and one that we just don't get to see anymore. And Luger pulled it off so VERY well. You say you watched WCW in the early and mid 90s, then you should understand what I'm talking about.

Point taken. The Horseman work was very tweenerish. But honestly, I think you'd be hard pressed to get fans to remember when in WCW Luger was a face and when he was a heel, because he was not outstanding at either. There was no question with Vader.

Wow, epic fail. Where was the reaction? I just saw people sitting in their seats. As for the riot which happened later, are you SURE that was because Vader won? It had nothing to do with the fact that fans were upset that Inoki had already had a match earlier that evening and that the biggest name in Japanese wrestling had just gotten squashed?

The term is "stunned silence." I think the moment when fans are sitting in silent awe, sort of a "wait, did that just really happen?" type of moment, is as powerful or more powerful than the loud crowd reaction. The fact that those fans rioted after what had just happened sunk in is damn sure a reaction.

And sure, those fans were pissed because their National hero just lost in under three minutes to a guy making his debut. Sure, they felt it was a big of a screw, but this is part of Vader's legacy. A towering, massive, hard-hitting monster just picked apart their prone champion, and now has the gall to celebrate the victory on Inoki's turf? Freaking epic, I say. What a debut.

You're backing the wrong horse, Sly. Drink the IC25 Kool-aid...or should I say, realize greatness, a.k.a. Big Van Vader, when you see it.

 

[Slyfox696]

To answer the various arguments about the matter:

I am going to express myself here.

I think it is bullshit that people say people vote for Vader just because IC does. If that is the only excuse people can come up with than that is Sad. I support Vader because i truly believe that he can defeat Lex Luger in a match. And i stated my reasons. None of those reasons where because IC supports him. Now I made my case why Vader should take the win. If someone can come up with a really good case for Lex Luger and no one can say anything to counter that, then odds are that i will be swayed in that direction because it would truly mean something if you make a really, really good case and no one can counter it.

The fact that Lex Luger was a big time face and a big time heel, was one of the biggest players in wrestling during the 80s and 90s, was mega over in the two biggest wrestling companies in America, and is a wrestling legend isn't enough to convince you to vote for him?

What's so great about Vader anyways? People always talk about how Luger was "no skill"...if he had no skill, then why was he adored everywhere he went? And spare me the "look" bullshit, because I've seen hundreds of guys with a good body get no where in wrestling.

Hell, one of the biggest reasons people DO vote for Vader, aside from IC's politicking is because of VADER'S body. "Well, he's a big fat guy, he must be great". I mean seriously, if anyone gets votes because of their body, guys like Vader do. The hypocrisy is ridiculous.

I personally have seen Luger wrestle since he was in the Four Horsemen. He was all look and very little skill. Luger was all hype. All body, and very little talent.

Bullshit, and for someone who apparently recognizes the greatness of someone like Brody, I'm disappointed in you for saying that.

What the fuck do you think "skill" is in wrestling? Being able to roll around on the mat doing fake moves to a willing partner? That's not skill, that's acting. The SKILL in wrestling comes from having the ability to make people care about you, and Lex Luger was able to make people care about more than just about any worker in the last 20-30 years. How is that not being skilled?

He can draw money like no other, and at his apex, he was as big as anyone in the biz outside of Hulk Hogan. But Luger was also criticized heavily because he wasn't professional, he hired a lawyer to negotiate his contracts, which was unprecedented for that time

He wasn't professional? What wasn't professional about him? As far as a lawyer negotiating his contracts...that's just being smart. Criticizing a guy for looking out for his own best interests is stupid. Athletes in all other sports have agents, why shouldn't wrestlers?

Luger was a shoddy worker who was over because of his body.

Bullshit, and it's this ignorance that ticks me off. If it was all about the body, then how come the Warlord wasn't a multi-time world champion? That guys was fucking ripped. How about Dino Bravo, a man with enormous muscles?

The body has fuck all to do with it. The fact that Luger was an incredible athlete and had the incredible ability to make people care about him is what made him over.

He had some great matches with great wrestlers, but with wrestlers at his level? Not that good.

Seriously, that seems ridiculous. He had great matches with great wrestlers...but bad matches with guys you feel are bad wrestlers? How the fuck are you supposed to have a good match with bad workers? No one can do that.

Vader is a very accomplished wrestler in America and Japan. He's a marvel of modern science for being as round, big, and agile as he was.

So, you're saying part of the charm to Vader is his body? How come it's ok for Vader to be over because of his body, but not Luger? Perhaps hypocrisy should be looked up and defined.

Did he accomplish as much as Luger in the states? No. Was he as over as Luger? No.

Exactly.

Could he out wrestle Luger? Yes.

How do you figure? On what basis do you figure this?

The reason I voted for Vader was because Luger's not half the wrestler people make him out to be.

Bullshit. Luger's TWICE the wrestler people make him out to be, because people like you keep saying the ridiculous things like "he was only over because of his body".

I backed Hansen. I think I backed Valentine. I know I backed Windham.

But you only campaigned for Vader. And Vader was the only one of those who made it to the third round.

So for you to say that Vader got in because of his in-ring work, and that your backing had nothing to do with it is silly, because all of those guys were phenomenal in-ring workers.

 

[Captain America]

I don't know how the hell Luger got over Finlay

Maybe it's because this is a kayfabe tournament and Lex Luger has accomplished more in his career than Finlay could ever dream of. Lex Luger is a world champion and has main evented Wrestlemania. Finlay has never came close to being world champion and was lucky to be in the opening card of Wrestlemania.

, so I'm definitely not voting him over Vader. I never liked anything about him,

It doesn't matter what you liked about him. This is not a popularity contest. This is a kayfabe wrestling tournament and without breaking kayfabe I find it very difficult for anyone to put together a good enough argument as to why Vader should go over Luger. If this were a popularity contest I'd vote for Vader, but it's not so I'll go with the man who made Hogan submit and bodyslammed Yokozuna. Lex had a longer reign on top, beat the better competition, and was more popular in his prime.

and don't see why he was ever pushed. His only time of interest was when he feuded with Buff Bagwell, in my opinion.

It doesn't matter whether of not you feel he should've been pushed, the fact is he was pushed! This is a kayfabe tournament, whether or not you feel he should've been pushed is completely irrelevant.

Vader is bigger, stronger,

He's bigger and more physical, but to say he's stronger is debatable. I think there very evenly matched as far as strength goes with an edge in my opinion going to Luger. I mean Luger was the first man to ever slam Yokozuna and this was in Yokozuna's prime. Lex Luger has also put The Giant into Torture Racks. I've never seen Vader slam Yokozuna, The Giant, or anyone close to Yoko or Giant's size.

The fact is the majority of people are using non kayfabe reasons to vote for Vader over Luger and that goes against the tournament rules and shouldn't be happening, because it takes away a lot of credibility to this tournament.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Bullshit, and for someone who apparently recognizes the greatness of someone like Brody, I'm disappointed in you for saying that.

Fair enough, but his co-workers say the same thing. He had the look and charisma, but no mic skills, and he was a bull in a china shop in the ring. He was over with the fans because he had the 'look' of a wrestler.

What the fuck do you think "skill" is in wrestling? Being able to roll around on the mat doing fake moves to a willing partner? That's not skill, that's acting. The SKILL in wrestling comes from having the ability to make people care about you, and Lex Luger was able to make people care about more than just about any worker in the last 20-30 years. How is that not being skilled?

I never got this people 'caring' for Luger. During his turn when he was ousted from the Horsemen, sure. The fans cared because they wanted to see someone stick it to Flair, Arn, Tully, and Barry Windham. And the Lex Express thing was simply not because he was Lex Luger, it was because he was AMERICAN. An American who 'slammed' Yokozuna, another wrestler who was pure scrap. And despite all that hype, they managed to get him a count out over Yoko. Big whoop.

He wasn't professional? What wasn't professional about him? As far as a lawyer negotiating his contracts...that's just being smart. Criticizing a guy for looking out for his own best interests is stupid. Athletes in all other sports have agents, why shouldn't wrestlers?

It was smart. But was it ethical during those days. Especially doing that when you haven't even wrestled a match? Really? Don't think so. Back then, a man's word meant more than contracts. Luger basically gave a big 'Fuck You' to the NWA brass, and the WWE for that matter when he promised Vince he'd sign a deal, then promptly showed up at Nitro the next night. That's what was so unprofessional about him.

Bullshit, and it's this ignorance that ticks me off. If it was all about the body, then how come the Warlord wasn't a multi-time world champion? That guys was fucking ripped. How about Dino Bravo, a man with enormous muscles?

I never said Luger wasn't over ALL because of his body. He flexed, had charisma, and had the look of a star. Dino Bravo and the Warlord didn't. But Luger was a star because he had the look of one. Which can be a skill, so I'll give Luger that.

The body has fuck all to do with it. The fact that Luger was an incredible athlete and had the incredible ability to make people care about him is what made him over.

Nope. That's not what made him over. People wanted to see him flex and see him no sell chops from Flair, and to see him put someone in the Torture Rack. There were instances where we wanted to see Luger win and we cared, but c'mon. He's overrated and over hyped.

Seriously, that seems ridiculous. He had great matches with great wrestlers...but bad matches with guys you feel are bad wrestlers? How the fuck are you supposed to have a good match with bad workers? No one can do that.

I don't know. Ask Bret Hart, HBK, Ric Flair, Tully and Arn. They've done a wonderful job at making jobbers seem like they had a chance. Luger just runs you over, squashes you with the Rack and flexes for two minutes with JJ Dillon.

So, you're saying part of the charm to Vader is his body? How come it's ok for Vader to be over because of his body, but not Luger? Perhaps hypocrisy should be looked up and defined.

Vader's build keeps him from being too prone to the torture rack, but the charm of Vader is he beats the shit out of you. He can wrestle with you, too. Vader's look has him over somewhat, but it's what he DOES in the ring that people recognize. Think about this. First thing that pops in your mind when you think of Luger? BODY! Now, VADER? PAIN! Simple as that.

Bullshit. Luger's TWICE the wrestler people make him out to be, because people like you keep saying the ridiculous things like "he was only over because of his body".

Luger was entertaining, and worked some good matches, but he's not the wrestler you make him out to be. His look is the reason he was looked at in the first place, wheras Vader was looked at because he beat people up and made it look good.

And Stan Hansen beat the piss out of Luger, and wasn't too overly stiff with him, either. He wrestled with him, and managed a decent match out of him. He also ended Luger's title reign. Vader and Hansen fought to no contests on more than a few occasions. Same wrestling style, same stiffness, same result. Luger falls.

 

[Henry Hill]

this is ecw rules and vader is the man who ripped mick foley's ear from his head! the hardcore clearly suits vader much better who would defeat lex with relative ease given the rules.

 

[Captain America]

this is ecw rules and vader is the man who ripped mick foley's ear from his head! the hardcore clearly suits vader much better who would defeat lex with relative ease given the rules.

Who has ever defeated Lex Luger with relative ease? I'd like to know the answer to this question. Lex has faced the best of the best and defeated most of them and never lost to anyone with relative ease, yet somehow you think Vader's just gonna steamroll Lex Luger? I'll have what your smoking, bro.

 

[Tastycles]

So, Vader's reigns in WCW in the early 90s don't count, but Luger's does? Luger first won the championship when Flair left the company. When Luger was champion, Clash of the Champions went from pulling ratings in the 4s to pulling ratings in the 3s, which is a notable fall in the ratings. Some draw he was.

Conversely, while Vader was wrestling in leaner times for WCW, the ratings leaped from 2.6 at the start of his longest reign to 3.8 in August. So, it doesn't look like he was much of a ratings flop as you seem to suggest.

Bischoff has said himself that he only got Luger as a shock tactic and did notlike him on either a personal or professional level, so again, Luger is in the right place at the right time. Had anyone on WWF's contract run out the day before Nitro started, they'd have been on that show, and this isn't conjecture, it's what the WCW president has actually said. Luger had the All American gimmick gift wrapped to him, and the crowd booed when they thought he had won the rumble, but cheered when they realised Hart had too.

I have never in my life seen Lex Luger pin a super heavyweight, but I have seen Vader beat scores of guys Luger's size. Lex Luger is a strength based wrestler, and Vader is too big for him to be able to play that game. He beat Yokozuna by countout, but you can't do that here.

Lex Luger was evidently not one of the most popular wrestlers of his era as exemplified by the ratings dropping during his lengthy title reign in 1991. For a guy who was supposedly on top of WCW until the bitter end, he had 5 days as champion during their boom period, which was up until that point the shortest ever WCW title reign, again suggesting that the powers that be didn't think he could run with the ball, probably because he wasn't popular enough.

 

[Slyfox696]

Fair enough, but his co-workers say the same thing. He had the look and charisma, but no mic skills, and he was a bull in a china shop in the ring. He was over with the fans because he had the 'look' of a wrestler.

His co-workers hate the fact that he was so very good, but didn't spend the time "developing" his craft. Anyone with an ounce of knowledge about wrestling, and can speak without jealousy, will tell you professional wrestling is not about moves and holds, it's about playing a character and telling a story. And Luger was one of the best.

I never got this people 'caring' for Luger. During his turn when he was ousted from the Horsemen, sure. The fans cared because they wanted to see someone stick it to Flair, Arn, Tully, and Barry Windham.

Yes, because if Tom Zenk had tried to stick it to the Horsemen, he would have went on to a Hall of Fame career like Luger too, right? Silly notion. That makes as much sense as saying if Ronny Garvin had been given the Hulk Hogan push instead of Terry Bollea, then Ronny Garvin would have turned out the greatest wrestler of all time. It's asinine to say that circumstances mean more than the ability of a wrestler.

And the Lex Express thing was simply not because he was Lex Luger, it was because he was AMERICAN.

The Patriot Del Welkes was an American, didn't seem to help him that much.

It was smart. But was it ethical during those days.

Uhh, yeah it was ethical. Why would it not be ethical? Lex Luger was a top flight athlete, with an impressive athletic pedigree. Why would he not try and get the most for the talents he possessed? Not only was it ethical, it was actually the American thing to do. Take advantage of the free market system.

Especially doing that when you haven't even wrestled a match? Really? Don't think so.

So, when Matthew Stafford had his agent get him a deal with the Detroit Lions, despite never playing an NFL game, that was unethical too? What are these athletes supposed to do? Just bend over and let the company anally rape them? Because that seems to be what you're suggesting.

Back then, a man's word meant more than contracts. Luger basically gave a big 'Fuck You' to the NWA brass, and the WWE for that matter when he promised Vince he'd sign a deal, then promptly showed up at Nitro the next night. That's what was so unprofessional about him.

AAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That's so absurd, I literally laughed out loud. The WWF/E is notorious for just randomly releasing people, for no reason at all, and then making it where they can't even earn a paycheck wrestling for 90 days...and we're concerned that a wrestler who didn't have a contract left to find work some place else? Wow, surely you're better than that.

The fact of the matter is this. The WWF fucked up. They didn't get Luger under contract, and so he went to work some place else. If they wanted to keep him, they should have had him sign a contract. Luger leaving wasn't unprofessional at all...hell, if I'm not mistaken, I believe he went to WCW and made LESS money. Don't blame Luger for the WWF's fuckups...and don't say he was unprofessional when he did THE EXACT SAME THING wrestling promotions have been doing to wrestlers for decades.

I never said Luger wasn't over ALL because of his body. He flexed, had charisma, and had the look of a star. Dino Bravo and the Warlord didn't. But Luger was a star because he had the look of one. Which can be a skill, so I'll give Luger that.

HAHAHA, how do you "look" like a star? Does the Undertaker look like a star? How about Triple H, does he look like a star? How about Rick Martel, did he look like a star? Or Tom Zenk, did he look like a star?

Look has nothing to do with it. The fact of the matter is that Luger had the ability to make people care about his character, whether he was face, heel, or a heel who was friends with a face. People cared about him no matter what character he played, and they cared the way they were supposed to. What more can you ask?

Nope. That's not what made him over. People wanted to see him flex and see him no sell chops from Flair, and to see him put someone in the Torture Rack. There were instances where we wanted to see Luger win and we cared,

Umm...exactly? Everything you just said, I completely agree with. And fans would rather see LUGER flex, no sell, and Torture Rack people more than they did Robert Gibson. That's the WHOLE point of wrestling, to make people want to see you, and to make them care about seeing you, and to put down their hard earned money to see you. If they don't care about you, they don't want to see you do anything.

The fact you just wrote that only proves what I've been saying all along. People CARE about Lex Luger.

I don't know. Ask Bret Hart, HBK, Ric Flair, Tully and Arn. They've done a wonderful job at making jobbers seem like they had a chance. Luger just runs you over, squashes you with the Rack and flexes for two minutes with JJ Dillon.

Wait wait wait...first of all, those guys had classic matches with jobbers with very little in-ring skill? Okay, please find examples for me.

Second of all, as far as squash matches go, you DO realize that Luger doesn't book the match, that's what the agents are for, correct? So the fact that he'd squash opponents really has nothing to do with Luger or the quality of match he put on.

And, if we're going to talk about squashing jobbers, and making people look bad, then we ought to shift this conversation to Vader. Because that was the only thing he ever did well...make others look bad.

Vader's build keeps him from being too prone to the torture rack

So? Is there a rule that says the only way you can win a match in this tournament is with a submission finisher?

but the charm of Vader is he beats the shit out of you.

Like I said, how does that make his opponent look good? Since we're all up in arms now about wrestling a match which makes opponents look good, how does squashing opponents make them look good?

Vader's look has him over somewhat, but it's what he DOES in the ring that people recognize. Think about this. First thing that pops in your mind when you think of Luger? BODY! Now, VADER? PAIN! Simple as that.

Bullshit.

When I think of Luger, the first thing that comes to mind is "Superstar"...meaning he was one of the greatest wrestlers of the last 20 or 30 years. When I think of Vader, the first thing I think of is "Mask"...because he always wore a mask. Pain isn't what I think of, because I actually watched him work back in WCW.

Luger was entertaining, and worked some good matches, but he's not the wrestler you make him out to be. His look is the reason he was looked at in the first place, wheras Vader was looked at because he beat people up and made it look good.

LOL

Wait, Luger was looked at because of the way he looked, but the super fat guy with decent agility wasn't? So, you're telling me that if Vader looked like Nunzio, we'd still be worshiping him for beating the piss out of people?

I smell a lie and hypocrisy.

And Stan Hansen beat the piss out of Luger, and wasn't too overly stiff with him, either. He wrestled with him, and managed a decent match out of him. He also ended Luger's title reign. Vader and Hansen fought to no contests on more than a few occasions. Same wrestling style, same stiffness, same result. Luger falls.

Luger's beaten Sting, and Sting beat Vader. Luger's beaten Hulk fucking Hogan, and Hogan beat Vader.

We can play that game all day long. And unless you can find someone better than Hulk Hogan, you'll lose that game.

 

[Captain America]

So, Vader's reigns in WCW in the early 90s don't count, but Luger's does? Luger first won the championship when Flair left the company. When Luger was champion, Clash of the Champions went from pulling ratings in the 4s to pulling ratings in the 3s, which is a notable fall in the ratings. Some draw he was.

Conversely, while Vader was wrestling in leaner times for WCW, the ratings leaped from 2.6 at the start of his longest reign to 3.8 in August. So, it doesn't look like he was much of a ratings flop as you seem to suggest.

You mention Luger's early 90s title reign when WCW altogether was a weakened product due to the fact that Flair left the company, but you don't bring up his 1997 title reign at a time when the company was doing much better than when Vader was champion.

Regardless though, none of that even matters. This is a kayfabe tournament so that really is all irrelevant.

Bischoff has said himself that he only got Luger as a shock tactic and did notlike him on either a personal or professional level, so again, Luger is in the right place at the right time. Had anyone on WWF's contract run out the day before Nitro started, they'd have been on that show, and this isn't conjecture, it's what the WCW president has actually said.

And this has to do with this match, how?

I have never in my life seen Lex Luger pin a super heavyweight

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8cj7c_lex-luger-vs-bam-bam-bigelow_sport
http://www.dailymotion.com/relevanc...ant/video/x6ildp_the-giant-vs-lex-luger_sport

, but I have seen Vader beat scores of guys Luger's size. Lex Luger is a strength based wrestler, and Vader is too big for him to be able to play that game.

Too big for him to play that game? Luger has put the Big Show in torture racks and has slammed Yokozuna when Yokozuna was in his prime. Vader isn't as big as Show or Yokozuna. Lex would have no problem playing his power game.

Lex Luger was evidently not one of the most popular wrestlers of his era as exemplified by the ratings dropping during his lengthy title reign in 1991

Isn't it kind of ridiculous that you bring up his reign in 1991, when everyone and there mother knows he didn't reach the height of his popularity until the mid to late 90s?

The fact is without breaking kayfabe you really can't make a case for Vader going over Luger. It's really cheap that everyone is breaking kayfabe just to get Vader over Luger. If people were following the rules and voting for kayfabe reasons than Luger would have a lot more votes right now.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

You mention Luger's early 90s title reign when WCW altogether was a weakened product due to the fact that Flair left the company, but you don't bring up his 1997 title reign at a time when the company was doing much better than when Vader was champion.

Are you serious? You mean the title reign that lasted 6 days? The title reign that was used as a cheap Monday Night pop and to drive buys for Hog Wild? THAT title reign? That wasn't even a title reign. And the popularity of WCW in 1997 had little to do with Luger himself. It was on Hogan, the Outsiders, the nWo, etc.

Regardless though, none of that even matters. This is a kayfabe tournament so that really is all irrelevant.

Title reigns DAMN sure matter to me in these tournaments. And Vader was a better, stronger, more accomplished champion that Luger was.

And this has to do with this match, how?

Because it reminds you that Luger's big "return to WCW" wasn't important because it was Luger who did it - you could have substitued many other men in his shoes and accomplished the same thing.

Too big for him to play that game? Luger has put the Big Show in torture racks and has slammed Yokozuna when Yokozuna was in his prime. Vader isn't as big as Show or Yokozuna. Lex would have no problem playing his power game.

I already covered this. Please go back and read it.

The fact is without breaking kayfabe you really can't make a case for Vader going over Luger. It's really cheap that everyone is breaking kayfabe just to get Vader over Luger. If people were following the rules and voting for kayfabe reasons than Luger would have a lot more votes right now.

We're voting on who we feel would and should win the match. Vader would win. Vader should win. What's with you and this kayfabe high horse, and since when are the points we are bringing up irrelevant?

You're just voting for Luger because you want SlyFox to like you.

 

[Captain America]

Are you serious? You mean the title reign that lasted 6 days? The title reign that was used as a cheap Monday Night pop and to drive buys for Hog Wild? THAT title reign? That wasn't even a title reign. And the popularity of WCW in 1997 had little to do with Luger himself. It was on Hogan, the Outsiders, the nWo, etc.

All I know is that Luger was a champion during the companies biggest boom period and was a main event player. At the height of pro wrestling in the 90s Vader was a mid card guy jobbing to rookies. These are facts.

Title reigns DAMN sure matter to me in these tournaments.

Title reigns matter, but do ratings? This isn't a tournament about who was the hottest draw, If that were the case we might as well just declare Hogan or Austin the winner and be done with it. This is a tournament about who would win in a kayfabe wrestling match.

Because it reminds you that Luger's big "return to WCW" wasn't important because it was Luger who did it - you could have substitued many other men in his shoes and accomplished the same thing.

That's doubtful. There was only a very select few who you could've pulled that off and Luger was one of them.

I already covered this. Please go back and read it.

I read through your posts and I have yet to find any credibile evidence that even comes close to suggesting that Vader would be too big or too strong for Lex to handle. I think that notion is absolutely absurd. Luger has defeated several superheavyweights, has placed The Giant in a torture rack and has bodyslammed Yokozuna. When has Vader ever performed feats of strength that could rival this???

We're voting on who we feel would and should win the match. Vader would win. Vader should win. What's with you and this kayfabe high horse

This entire tournament is a kayfabe tournament. It's not a high horse, it's the facts. This isn't supposed to be a popularity contest. When you vote for someone due to non kayfabe reasons it's disrespectful to the tournament and takes away some of its credibility.

and since when are the points we are bringing up irrelevant?

They're irrelevant if they're not kayfabe.

You're just voting for Luger because you want SlyFox to like you.

Yep that's it. I have a man crush on slyfox and so desperately need his attention.

 

[Tastycles]

You mention Luger's early 90s title reign when WCW altogether was a weakened product due to the fact that Flair left the company, but you don't bring up his 1997 title reign at a time when the company was doing much better than when Vader was champion.

I actually did mention it, and noted that it was the shortest in WCW history because he wasn't trusted with it. Vader may not have won the title, but he did beat the champion at Summerslam, as well as the Undertaker at Royal Rumble and headlining the Four Way match at the next PPV. However, Vader was on his way to retirement for his entire WWF stint, so it is an unfair comparison.

Regardless though, none of that even matters. This is a kayfabe tournament so that really is all irrelevant.


And this has to do with this match, how?

I wasn't the one who brought popularity into it, but if someone is going to do that, they might as well be right about it.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8cj7c_lex-luger-vs-bam-bam-bigelow_sport
http://www.dailymotion.com/relevanc...ant/video/x6ildp_the-giant-vs-lex-luger_sport

I was unaware of both of these matches. The Bam Bam one is ridiculous, firstly Vader isn't going to "accidentally" bump into anybody, because he has no allies. Secondly, a rollup is unlikely to work on a guy like Vader who is booked as a monster that has to be basically killed to go down.

The Giant takes several hits with a baseball bat to go down, but he does, granted. However, in ECW, Vader could use the bat himself, so when it is first brought to the ring, Luger wouldn't have the advantage he does here. The Giant match has seriously planted seeds of doubt in my mind though, in all honesty, but he lost his first few matches against the Giant, and only won when he cheated, at the end of the day.

Too big for him to play that game? Luger has put the Big Show in torture racks and has slammed Yokozuna when Yokozuna was in his prime. Vader isn't as big as Show or Yokozuna. Lex would have no problem playing his power game.

The slam of Yokozuna was a hiptoss. When he fought Yokozuna he won by countout. Big deal. Doesn't help him here. He did get Show in the torture rack, but not for long enough to beat him. Vader is quicker than the Giant, so Luger wouldn't have had the time he did after his knees buckle.

The fact that his three victories over Superheavyweights show him winning by using a baseball bat, a count out and a rollup only serve to prove that he wouldn't be able to hit the big power moves for the win. This being ECW, people are more resiliant to weapons attacks. It's a mystery of kayabe as to why this happens, but a chair shot in a regular match is 10 times the power of a chair shot in an extreme rules match, same goes for bats I'm sure.

Isn't it kind of ridiculous that you bring up his reign in 1991, when everyone and there mother knows he didn't reach the height of his popularity until the mid to late 90s?

Isn't it kind of ridiculous that you bring up Vader's WWF run when everybody knows his prime was in the late 80s and early 90s?

I was bringing up Luger's one and only decent run with the belt, you brought up a period of Vader's career when he was winding down from being the multi time world champion before.

The fact is without breaking kayfabe you really can't make a case for Vader going over Luger. It's really cheap that everyone is breaking kayfabe just to get Vader over Luger. If people were following the rules and voting for kayfabe reasons than Luger would have a lot more votes right now.

I haven't broken kayfabe. Luger has never had a convincing win over a Superheavyweight, and here he is fighting someone who is one of the hardiest superheavyweights of all, within the realm of kayfabe. I am not the person who brought up popularity and drawing power, that was Sly in saying why Luger should win. So the only person using non kayfabe arguments is Luger's supporter.

All I know is that Luger was a champion during the companies biggest boom period and was a main event player. At the height of pro wrestling in the 90s Vader was a mid card guy jobbing to rookies. These are facts.

I've said why these two points are irrelevant. In the boom period Luger won the title for 5 days. The rest of the time he was below Hogan, Savage, Giant, Flair, Sting... Then later Goldberg and Nash. In WWF he was below Bret Hart as the companies top face. Vader was featured prominently for about two years on WWF programming, despite being nearing retirement. In his prime on WCW, h was undoubtedly the number one guy, same goes for his times in Japan.

Title reigns matter, but do ratings? This isn't a tournament about who was the hottest draw, If that were the case we might as well just declare Hogan or Austin the winner and be done with it. This is a tournament about who would win in a kayfabe wrestling match.

Tell that to Slyfox then. If we're looking at title reigns, shall we look at a man with two world title reigns, one of which lasted 5 days, or shall we look at the guy who has won top heavyweight titles in Japan, USA and Mexico. I'd like you to find one other person in the history of wrestling to have done that You'll struggle. In the US alone he has one more reign and 142 days longer as WCW champion. Only Hogan and Flair have held the WCW title longer culmulatively than Vader.

That's doubtful. There was only a very select few who you could've pulled that off and Luger was one of them.

Not what I said, what Bischoff said. He was the guy making the decision, you weren't, so I'll take his word over yours.

I read through your posts and I have yet to find any credibile evidence that even comes close to suggesting that Vader would be too big or too strong for Lex to handle. I think that notion is absolutely absurd. Luger has defeated several superheavyweights, has placed The Giant in a torture rack and has bodyslammed Yokozuna. When has Vader ever performed feats of strength that could rival this???

Vader doesn't need to be as strong though does he? Lex isn't as big, so to lift him up is easier. Luger relies on powering through his opponents, but Vader is too big for that. The 3 shw victories he holds were all in contrived manners which wouldn't work in this environment or against this performer for reasons stated previously.

This entire tournament is a kayfabe tournament. It's not a high horse, it's the facts. This isn't supposed to be a popularity contest. When you vote for someone due to non kayfabe reasons it's disrespectful to the tournament and takes away some of its credibility.

Exactly, but the only person voting on popularity is Sly, because, quite rightfully, believes that drawing power is what makes a wrestler good. The problem is that popularity doesn't necessarily win matches. Jeff Hardy is more popular than Umaga, but guess who lost in their first match?

 

[RVDgurl]

Vader wins, plain and simple. I never got into Luger and I can't understand why there was ever any hype about this guy. He had a great body...and that's about it. He was pushed and pushed by WCW simply because he was built "like a wrestler". There was never anything more impressive than that. Vader, on the other hand, is one of the most talented big men in the history of the game. He outshines Luger in every aspect one could compare. Not to mention. this match takes place in an ECW ring, which is a clear advantage for Vader.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

I think I'm too little, too late to attempt saving Luger here.. but a travesty is being done. And I'm going to explain why.

Vader is without question one of the best big men in the business, but the only remote push from people voting for him.. has been those going against "kayfabe" and "wrestling storylines", as if this fight is happening in real life, as opposed to under wrestling rules and restrictions. Newsflash people, this is meant to be a wrestling match.. just like all the kayfabe/storylines you're trying your hardest to go against.

Lex Luger might not be liked by people because of personal issues, but too fucking bad. He beats Vader here, or at least should. He's got the power to match Vader, but holds the strength and conditioning to out-last Vader.

I recently watched a couple Vader matches from the W.W.E's newest DVD - one against Sting, and another against H.B.K.. Vader loses both matches, and the one glaring hole he had in each, was an inability to hold out, like his opponent's seemed to find ways doing.

Vader hit TWO Vader bombs on Sting, a less strengthened and conditioned athlete than Luger, and Sting kicked out - then managed to continue for a good 5+ more minutes, before winning the match.

My point is this, Luger has toppled the biggest 'Giants' in this sport. Yokozuna, Big Show, and even Vader at times before. (if memory serves) Luger has withstood onslaughts from the same guys Vader seems to have trouble with. Now, I'm not going off the logic that since Luger beat them and Vader didn't, that Luger would win.. I'm going off the fact that Luger holds the bigger ability to withstand the punishment Vader will dish out.. and when Vader can't put Luger away, he'll get upset, blow his cool and ultimately lose the match by losing concentration.

Luger doesn't have to hit Vader with a forearm, or rack him. Vader's lost to random moves. A body splash, a roll-up, a moonsault.. the point is, Vader loses more when the end comes randomly than by-way of something you'd be expecting. Luger doesn't do many roll-ups, but his forearm does come from no where at times.

Luger should've won this based off having the better conditioning and ability to last against Vader's power. Instead, I see Luger losing because a lot of people don't like who Luger is in real life.. or because they believe Luger was only who he was, through storylines.. as if to say Vader's character was actually "him". Get real, people.

 

[Shocky]

I think you're forgetting though that Vader "lost to HBK" only after defeating him twice before in the same match. Vader also has just as many victories over sting as he has losses. In the end, I chose Vader, but mostly because of the Extreme Rules. Yes, Luger would be able to utilize said weapons, but if Vader used them on Luger, the match is over. Luger doesn't come across as someone that could go "Hardcore", but Vader certainly is. Luger is an under rated wrestler, but Vader is a dominant wrestler.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

I think you're forgetting though that Vader "lost to HBK" only after defeating him twice before in the same match.

Yes, but both of those victories he earned in the earlier parts of 'said' match were fluke worthy at best. Vader, a man that was double the size and strength of Shawn Michaels, beat him to the point of causing Shawn to be counted out.. then Disqualified. (Mind you, H.B.K didn't willingly get DQ'd, he did it only after Cornette interjected himself w/ the racket)

On the flip side of that though, H.B.K (a guy two times smaller, and with vastly less strength) managed to withstand the punishment of Vader, and still come out victorious. I'd say that hurt Vader's overall standing because it made his huge power advantage seem minuscule. For a guy like H.B.K to take every bit of punishment Vader can dish out, yet still stay in the match and win.. it makes a match-up with Vader against a guy who has the same strength seem one-sided in Luger's favor, not Vader's.

In the end, I chose Vader, but mostly because of the Extreme Rules. Yes, Luger would be able to utilize said weapons, but if Vader used them on Luger, the match is over.

I would tend to agree with this. The extreme rules aspect of the match could and would favor Vader, but only to the understanding that Vader would get that much use out of the weapons, to have a big enough effect.

Luger doesn't come across as someone that could go "Hardcore", but Vader certainly is. Luger is an under rated wrestler, but Vader is a dominant wrestler.

Luger isn't a hardcore type wrestler, because he doesn't have to be. That's not to say I believe Vader can only win via using weapons, believe me, I see the man as a walking weapon in and of himself. However, I'm merely saying Luger never earned any credibility as a hardcore wrestler, because he never had to use weapons to win.

Whereas in a situation like this, I believe the only way Vader could earn a victory, is by utilizing the weapons (which is legal, mind you) to gain the advantage over Luger matching his power.

I still just wish people would've used slightly better judgment in voting. Vader does hold the advantage through the weapons aspect. But most of everyone who voted against Luger, did it (seemingly through the posts I've read) by the understanding that Luger wasn't a great person in real life. Which is bullshit, in my opinion that they'd use the excuse of him not being able to win over Vader in real life, (as in a real life fight) when (to my knowledge) this tournament is meant to be under the acknowledgement of kayfabe and as-if it were happening in the Wrestling world, not the real world.

 

[Shocky]

Well it's aproblem, because Luger certainly isn't worthy of the heaping amount of criticism he has received in here. Hell, I defended and made a case for Luger in my post in here towards the beginning of this thread. It's simply not cool to like guy sthat were over on look because somehow guys with huge muscles are the only ones that use steroids. Yes, Luger got over on his looks, but to stay over on that is absurd. If wrestlers only got over because of their looks, someone like Chris Masters would be World Champion right now. Luger got over because Lguer had talent, not a lot of talent mind you, but enough to get people to buy into him being a legit tough guy, and good enough to out wrestle wrestlers at times. The guy was the first WCW Grand Slam Champion, that says a lot.

In this match, he's simply outmatched by a guy that, in my opinion, accomplished more in his career then Luger did, which says a ton because Luger accomplished a lot. If this wasn't extreme Rules, my vote would have gone differently.