Did Triple H Intentionally Keep The Good Workers Away From Raw While He Was Champion?

[Tenta]

Just something I was considering during Triple H's reign while the "top" wrestler in the WWE, though I highly contend this isn't the case. Still, for whatever it's worth, from 2002-2005, Triple H was the most dominant wrestler on the entire Raw Roster. Now then, he also had to bury a couple names to get there, and I don't think I'm going to have much of an argument. I'm not going to pretend that I'm sitting here, and being completely unbiased on the matter; Triple H is one of the most egotisitical, pretentious pricks in the business, in my humble opinion. But, I'm going to go even further in saying that he Kamikaze'd his own program, in taking all of the wrestlers who were either better than he was in the ring, at selling tickets, and overall were threats to his throne as Raw's biggest superstar.

Don't believe me? Let's take a look at the names he kept on Raw.

RVD- Over? Perhaps, but not in that main event way, at least in the WWE. RVD just didn't have a track record at the time for drawing ticket sales in the WWE. His only experience in the main event at the time was one Three Way Dance between Steve Austin and Kurt Angle, which did a low for its time buy rate, somewhere in the neighborhood of 325,000 buys. This made RVD the eventual scapegoat for Triple H. Lo and behold, the event didn't draw, and RVD was the scapegoat for Triple H.

Kane- Same story, different situation. Kane, unlike RVD, had been World Heavyweight Champion before. For a day. Kane hadn't proven at the time to be much of a draw himself, and though he'd get wildly over with the fans, Triple H saddled himself with Kane, and killed all of his credibility, as well as taking the Intercontinental Title, thereby making nothing for the Mid Card to chase, and effectively killing off the mid card, as well. No one received a worse burial treatment than Kane, and the fans caught on. Unfortunately, Triple H still had his ace in the hole, that Kane was never a proven draw. Again, another mid card name who had a chance, but was buried. And, mind you, another person not proven as a draw.

Scott Steiner- Pffft. Yeah, good fucking luck with that one. Steiner was World Champion for WCW in its dying days. Do you think that gives him any track record as to say he's a draw? Yeah, thought so. Moving on.

Booker T- See the sad state of affairs with WCW. Again, Booker T was seen as a WCW Guy; someone that went down with the ship in WCW, and because he went down with the ship, he surely shared some fault for how WCW's performance dwindled. Thus, when the Wrestlemania buyrate came in at a shockingly low number, and the reasoning was the lack of a credible main event on the Raw side, who was blamed? Yep, that would be Booker T.

Kevin Nash (and while I'm here, Shawn Michaels)- Yeah, what did Triple H care of his best friend succeeded? This was Triple at his best, keeping all of his buddies close to the top, so that they could all hog the main event spotlight. Yes, I'm including Shawn, as he really had no place in the main event, but rather was better off putting people over, which didn't happen nearly as much as people believe.

Chris Jericho. Chyaaa. You think Chris was going to be trusted as a draw after that whole Wrestlemania 18 Fiasco? Thank God they had Rock and Hogan to save Triple H's ass, but when the feud was over, and considered widely lackluster, who got the blame? That's right, Y2J himself. He wouldn't sniff a world title for a couple years afterwards.

Goldberg- Oh Goodie, a proven draw... Five years ago. Luckily, in that five year span, Goldberg had been shot to hell when it comes to credibility, and was seen as a stiff, unsafe worker, all of which may have been warranted. Still, Triple H could blame Goldberg getting old, thathe wasn't the same draw. That may have been true, but we again see Triple H getting away with horrible buy rate results.

I could go on, but the main point is that all of the proven draws were kept far the fuck away from Triple H? Stone Cold. He's now the GM. The Rock? Kept on Smackdown most the time, and even on Raw, had "one last run" with Steve Austin. Hulk Hogan? Working on Smackdown. Kurt Angle? Ditto. Brock Lesnar? I think we're all aware that Trips wanted no part of Brock Lesnar. Eddie and Chris? Kept far fucking away at all costs, though Chris would come back for his lifetime achievement, yet still keeping Raw "The Triple H Show".

The evidence is right in front of you. Triple H kept the good workers, and the better draws, far fucking away from him, and kept people close that he could blame if the numbers, typically, came out bad. I don't think I need to point out much more. Triple H knowingly sabotaged his own show to keep his own credibility

 

[closet_fan]

i am sure most knew this already.

i remember reading a story about orton and umaga being in the back and they were watching HHH get drafted to Smackdown. Orton told Umaga "Now you get to deal with him."

 

[1_2_3 Kid]

Never thought about it like that there Tenta...

Gotta say, I totally agree in saying that HHH is one of the biggest pricks around. But I never really payed much attention as too who was getting buried. I really didn't start "blogging" or reading the net till way after others were, so I just thought he was on a roll.

I will surley agree on the point you make about Hunter not wanting any of Brock. We all know what would have happened there. But it was obvious that Raw was stale for awhile while Trips was on his title binge.

He did have some classic matches and I gotta mark him as in my top 3. He's got what it takes, and I know that's not the point your making, but I've been a fan off HHH's ringsmanship for awhile so id always have to back my boy in the long run.

I can't really remember much of the old Raw episodes, or SD's but I would have loved to see HHH get involved with EG. I think they really could have tore the house down. But knowing my boy HHH, he probly end up wanting to go over... and because he is HHH it will happen.

That's one thing that I always hated about Hunter. As much as I admire and love to watch the man, I always felt like he never really got by on Raw talent. The greenwich blueblood gimmick was horrible and it was just a matter of time for it to go but being a McMahonInLaw definitly has the perks.

But going over all of your facts it is definitly obvious that he was hogging all of the spotlight and squashing guys. I'm 24, so now I can appreciate the whole game a little more and not just what you see on tv.

Great thread tho, as usual Tenta ..

 

[kurt_angle_no1fan]

I dont watch Smackdown at all now. But back in 2002/2003 it was much better than The Triple H show.

Hogan, Rock, Kane, Lesnar, Angle, Benoit, Edge...I think it had the stronger talent?

 

[Tenta]

That's the thing I'm arguing here. Everyone's so up in arms about what he did with Smackdown, no one begins to think how he fucked over Raw in the process. We all know that Triple H put certain workers on Smackdown to avoid them, but the point is more who he put on Raw more than anything else, and who he avoided a one on one match with.

Case in point; He could get away with a one on one match with Kane, but probably couldn't do the same against Brock Lesnar, without receiving the blame if the buy rate came low. This isn't so much questioning what he did to Smackdown, as much as his legacy as a draw, and how he padded that in the WWE by putting the fault against the supposed "mid carders" he was helping to elevate. Even when he was without the Title. While Chris Benoit was holding the belt, Triple H and Eugene were regularly taking up the good portion of TV time, as did his buddy Shawn.

Again, the Smackdown thing becomes so transparent, no one thinks to what he did to Raw in the process. And after all, isn't Raw supposed to be the "A" show?

 

[Tenta]

I dont watch Smackdown at all now. But back in 2002/2003 it was much better than The Triple H show.

Hogan, Rock, Kane, Lesnar, Angle, Benoit, Edge...I think it had the stronger talent?

Well, first of all, Kane was on Raw, mate. Second, that's my point; Triple H went so far out of his way to keep all the other workers on Smackdown that could best him in everything, he essentially sunk the top show for the company. Everyone knows that Raw is always, and always will be, the top priority show, yet it was actually the "B" show. We may have thought the talent was better on SD, but we all knew that Raw was the crowning jewel, and anyone that was champion on Raw was the face of the company. In essence, that's the point; Triple H was able to maintain being the face of the company, at least to the non-smark, without having to prove himself as a draw. Hell, look at 123 Kid's post. He wasn't in tune with the internet, and just thought Triple H was the better wrestler. That's the problem here. Triple H buried stars who were mid card with the potential to be main eventers, without Triple H there

 

[Ruthless-RKO]

I'm pretty sure most people are aware of this..there have been similar threads but non who have really broken it down like you Tenta and or that I give you credit..

This is the same reason why Smackdown was the better show aswell..it was the brand that kept delivering top matches ppv after ppv with those like Taker, Eddie, Benoit, Brock, Kurt etc..why wouldn't you get top A class matches..

 

[Hawkeye]

You're absolutely right Tenta,and now I see why you're a big name in the Old School Section.

During those times I was still a kid so I wasn't thinking of buyrates and backstage politics,but I never really liked Triple H.I never found him to be as interesting as anyone else on the roster yet somehow he was always "That Guy".He was always in a big name feud and he always came out on top.He was drafted to Smackdown one time for like three days and them got traded for Booker T and I wanna say it was the Dudleys but I'm not sure.and I still believe that the only reason he's still relevant is because Shawn was around,or else he would have had nowhere to be.

It also seems like Smackdown is always the less politically charged of the two shows,but I would like to hear you expand on that thought for me a little bit Tenta.

 

[Tenta]

It also seems like Smackdown is always the less politically charged of the two shows,but I would like to hear you expand on that thought for me a little bit Tenta.

Eh...... I mean, that's like saying would you rather swim in a pool of sharks, or a pool of piranhas. Let's be honest about this; Paul Heyman played politics just as much as anyone, really. It was him, with a few more unidentified sources, that got Chris Benoit his Main Event Push at Wrestlemania XX, and campaigned for some of "his boys" like Eddie and the like, to get the big push, as well. Eddie made sense, but not a WWE Championship Run, and Chris Benoit was not a good choice for World Heavyweight Champion, if you ask me. Yes, it was his Lifetime Achievement Award, but the guy still couldn't cut an entertaining promo to save his life, and though his in ring work was fantastic, he was still an old name, who had a two decades in the business.

Heyman played politics, and I have a funny feeling so did Hayes for a long time. The only difference was that they played politics for "their" boys, and their boys are loved by the IWC. Thus, they never really get called out for it.

 

[Hawkeye]

Eh...... I mean, that's like saying would you rather swim in a pool of sharks, or a pool of piranhas. Let's be honest about this; Paul Heyman played politics just as much as anyone, really. It was him, with a few more unidentified sources, that got Chris Benoit his Main Event Push at Wrestlemania XX, and campaigned for some of "his boys" like Eddie and the like, to get the big push, as well. Eddie made sense, but not a WWE Championship Run, and Chris Benoit was not a good choice for World Heavyweight Champion, if you ask me. Yes, it was his Lifetime Achievement Award, but the guy still couldn't cut an entertaining promo to save his life, and though his in ring work was fantastic, he was still an old name, who had a two decades in the business.

Heyman played politics, and I have a funny feeling so did Hayes for a long time. The only difference was that they played politics for "their" boys, and their boys are loved by the IWC. Thus, they never really get called out for it.

Spot on about Benoit-Guerrero.Sure Eddie was entertaining all around,but I never really got behind him as top dog.He seemed more at home in the midcard,mild comedy roles but still a serious competitor.Benoit shouldn't have got that title at all,because to me all he was good for was the headbutt and crossface.He was a popular submission specialist,but should have only been inolved in the midcard title scene.I think had they kept these two guys with the IC/US titles,they would mean alot more today than they do given the current state.

 

[AttitudeAJM]

I'd like to counter argue if I may:

RVD: I've always been a big RVD fan. With that said, his time in the WWE was a mess of missed opportunities and most of them lay on his shoulders. He had a knack for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and never convincing people that he was a guy to run with. Triple H made him look great in the few matches that they had, even putting him over in a tag match on Raw sometime either before or after Unforgiven 2002. Obviously he didn't drop the belt to him, but the idea of winning championships to get a guy over is very overrated. He proved in later feuds to not be able to hold the audience the same way he did with Triple H.

Kane: I think this one has to fall more on creative's shoulders than Triple H's. The storyline going into their No Mercy match was absolutely horrendous. If you put the commentary on mute, they actually had a fantastic match. Kane's return to action during that time floundered in so many ways. He was teaming with Hurricane Helms to lackluster reactions and having his backstory tweeked into oblivion. Fortunately he's been able to somehow resurrect the damage that was done during those few years. Honestly no character has been as badly written as Kane yet he's still over.

Scott Steiner: This guy was an absolute mess well before he stepped into a main event role in WCW. His singles matches were always clunky at best. Guys like Ric Flair and Sting needed to pull everything they had out just to make their matches decent. As a tag wrestler he is one of the best EVER. Needless to say that when he arrived in the WWE, his health and his in ring ability had deteriorated greatly. Triple H allowed Steiner to manhandle him for 20 minutes during their Royal Rumble '03 match only leading to boos for Steiner and cheers for Triple H. Sadly enough, his matches with Triple H are the only watchable matches during his second run in the WWE.

Booker T: There are some guys that have all the talent but just no ability to draw. Booker T is one of those guys. I love him as an in ring performer. His TV Title matches in the WCW days were almost always the best match on the card. With that said, I think he came into a lose/lose situation in the WWF in 2001. He was plugged into a role as the leader of WCW when really people wanted someone like Hall, Nash or Hogan. You could even argue that the decision not to put him over The Rock set him back far more than not going over Triple H. He spent time getting thrashed in supermarkets well before Triple H ever returned to in ring competition in 2002.

Kevin Nash (Shawn Michaels): Tenta you claim that Nash and Michaels had no business being in the main event picture at the time. However, I was there for Survivor Series 2002 and while I wanted RVD to win the first Elimination Chamber match, the building went berserk for HBK's win. Their rivalry drew everywhere it went. Not to mention that their matches were some of the best that were produced by the WWF/WWE in the last decade. As for Kevin Nash... I chalk that one up to knowing Triple H. He got his shot and it didn't really go anywhere. A few lackluster matches and Nash was quickly in the undercard before being gone.

Chris Jericho: Wrestlemania X8 was one of the strangest nights in WWE history. Backstage politics were at an all time high because of NWO members clashing with current Superstars. Hogan/Rock seemed to loom largely over the card and overshadowed what should have been a night for Hunter and Jericho. Their match wasn't bad but sometimes lack of heat can really ruin perception. This match had zero heat. Not to mention the writers really left both guys out in the dust on this one. In the months following they did a better job to resurrect it but could never really get it going. Unfortunately for Chris at the time, he was stuck in a position where so many big names were floating around the main event scene at the best time. However, as luck would have it, he's come back better than ever and the best always find a way to make it happen.

Goldberg: While a proven draw in his early run in WCW, Vince Russo and the horrible writing crew had sucked most of the life out of his character. It also didn't help that during his first few months in the company he got into spats with Chris Jericho. His matches with The Rock and Jericho also suffered greatly. I think they were asking too much of him early on as an in ring competitor. WWE really missed the boat on making him look unbeatable. By the time SummerSlam rolled around most of the damage had already been done. One thing that Triple H did do was give him a good heel to work off of. Their Unforgiven match wasn't anything spectacular, but an injured Triple H sold Goldberg's offense like it was shotgun shells to the chest. I think Hunter did the best he could with a guy that creative had already dropped the ball with.

In closing, I feel that Triple H gets a bad wrap. Yes, he doesn't always do the best thing for the other guy in the ring. However, to say that he ruined chances for guys is completely absurd. Those guys all received multiple chances. Some made something of it with Hunter others made something of it without Hunter and on their own. The ones that failed, did so because of their own shortcomings not because of Hunter. I think saying that about Triple H sometimes gives him too much credit for something the writers have done.

 

[TheBWO]

Well...what really gets me is that he couldn't even (or wouldn't even I guess) put over Taz when he joined Smackdown---WITH THE ECW BELT IN TOW!! Watch "The Rise and Fall of ECW", and when TNN went under, and ECW merged with the WWE, Taz.....one of the most hardcore of the ECW crew, loyal, etc.....had to job to HHH. Taz was the CURRENT ECW champ, based on a loophole, whom he beat Mike Awesome for. This was also the height of HHH and Stephanie just (actually) getting married when she was a weekly face on Smackdown, so I'm pretty positive that he was right under daddy-in-laws little thumb

Taz....not going to wrestle much longer due to health.....should have at the very LEAST....been made IC champ. That way, the world would have been made aware of his ability. Of course, Taz went on to commentate, and HHH seemed to have quickly killed the angle. Go figure.

 

[Hawkeye]

Well...what really gets me is that he couldn't even (or wouldn't even I guess) put over Taz when he joined Smackdown---WITH THE ECW BELT IN TOW!! Watch "The Rise and Fall of ECW", and when TNN went under, and ECW merged with the WWE, Taz.....one of the most hardcore of the ECW crew, loyal, etc.....had to job to HHH. Taz was the CURRENT ECW champ, based on a loophole, whom he beat Mike Awesome for. This was also the height of HHH and Stephanie just (actually) getting married when she was a weekly face on Smackdown, so I'm pretty positive that he was right under daddy-in-laws little thumb

Taz....not going to wrestle much longer due to health.....should have at the very LEAST....been made IC champ. That way, the world would have been made aware of his ability. Of course, Taz went on to commentate, and HHH seemed to have quickly killed the angle. Go figure.

That match was on The Best of Smackdown DVD.The Champion Vs.Champion match right? Honestly,I liked Taz alot on commentary because he was always so laid back,but it was the complete opposite in the ring.The guy was a demon,and that Tazmission was amazing.You're right it is a shame he had to put Hunter over in that match.I honestly wonder how HHH would fare if he wasn't friends with Shawn/married to Steph.There's so much nepotism surrounding his success it's hard to decipher what's earned and what's given

 

[Sgt Ledbetter]

This is simple.....HHH was on RAW basically by himself because he is pretty much capable of carrying a show/brand, by HIMSELF. And Vince knows that which is why he did what he did. I am not a huge fan of HHH, but it just seems like he has the ability to elevate a show by just being on it

 

[Tenta]

You may, and don't get me wrong, you have a lot of valid opinions, and very smart statements. So let's go over the wrestlers in succession.

RVD: I've always been a big RVD fan. With that said, his time in the WWE was a mess of missed opportunities and most of them lay on his shoulders. He had a knack for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and never convincing people that he was a guy to run with. Triple H made him look great in the few matches that they had, even putting him over in a tag match on Raw sometime either before or after Unforgiven 2002. Obviously he didn't drop the belt to him, but the idea of winning championships to get a guy over is very overrated. He proved in later feuds to not be able to hold the audience the same way he did with Triple H.

I'm sorry, shouldn't the ear drum shattering pops been enough? We all knew Rob Van Dam was mad over, and I agree that Triple H did drop losses to him, in tag team matches. That said, it was very obvious that the fans wanted RVD as champion for a while now. Hell, people were clamoring for him to win the title back in 2001. Mind you, that wasn't happening, but RVD always had the ability. He was thrown into an Angle-Austin feud that couldn't draw, because they were forced to have PPV caliber matches on live TV for free. Why pay for it when you get it free? Anyway, RVD wasn't at fault for not drawing, but Triple H was able to spin it so that Dam wasn't a draw, and so he didn't go over, in spite of what everyone and their mother wanted.

Kane: I think this one has to fall more on creative's shoulders than Triple H's. The storyline going into their No Mercy match was absolutely horrendous. If you put the commentary on mute, they actually had a fantastic match. Kane's return to action during that time floundered in so many ways. He was teaming with Hurricane Helms to lackluster reactions and having his backstory tweeked into oblivion. Fortunately he's been able to somehow resurrect the damage that was done during those few years. Honestly no character has been as badly written as Kane yet he's still over.

I can see this, to an extent. However, I'd also argue that once Triple H saw how over Kane was, not noticing before that he was over to begin with, and focusing on the fact that he wasn't a draw, he saw fit to be in Creative's Ear (Chaired by his wife, mind you. Can't forget that little tidbit). It's understood that Creative has a hand, but for the love of God, they had Triple H consolidating the IC Title and WHC. Can you tell me the point of that? I mean, it's just asking to cripple the mid card, so that there can;t be anyone else in power but those that were already there.

Scott Steiner: This guy was an absolute mess well before he stepped into a main event role in WCW. His singles matches were always clunky at best. Guys like Ric Flair and Sting needed to pull everything they had out just to make their matches decent. As a tag wrestler he is one of the best EVER. Needless to say that when he arrived in the WWE, his health and his in ring ability had deteriorated greatly. Triple H allowed Steiner to manhandle him for 20 minutes during their Royal Rumble '03 match only leading to boos for Steiner and cheers for Triple H. Sadly enough, his matches with Triple H are the only watchable matches during his second run in the WWE.

Well, yeah, my question is more, why was Scott Steiner put in that position to begin with? Simple enough, because he could play a scapegoat for Triple H, and when the results were bad, and they were, Triple H could blame yet another unproven draw.

Booker T: There are some guys that have all the talent but just no ability to draw. Booker T is one of those guys. I love him as an in ring performer. His TV Title matches in the WCW days were almost always the best match on the card. With that said, I think he came into a lose/lose situation in the WWF in 2001. He was plugged into a role as the leader of WCW when really people wanted someone like Hall, Nash or Hogan. You could even argue that the decision not to put him over The Rock set him back far more than not going over Triple H. He spent time getting thrashed in supermarkets well before Triple H ever returned to in ring competition in 2002.

I don't buy that one. People really did want to see Booker T win the title. Hell, the storyline typically plays out like that. They brought up his criminal past, and embarrassed him on TV. So when he didn't go over, it made him look more idiotic than losing to The Rock. There was never a point when Booker got any heat in the feud.

Kevin Nash (Shawn Michaels): Tenta you claim that Nash and Michaels had no business being in the main event picture at the time. However, I was there for Survivor Series 2002 and while I wanted RVD to win the first Elimination Chamber match, the building went berserk for HBK's win. Their rivalry drew everywhere it went. Not to mention that their matches were some of the best that were produced by the WWF/WWE in the last decade. As for Kevin Nash... I chalk that one up to knowing Triple H. He got his shot and it didn't really go anywhere. A few lackluster matches and Nash was quickly in the undercard before being gone.

Again, a good nostalgia run is never bad, and I agree with him giving the belt to him. After that, Shawn was better off in the mid card, putting people over. Nostalgia only lasts so long, and in the end, he should have taken time to create new stars. Instead, he was always in the World Title picture, for a reign he never needed. All because of who his buddy was.

Chris Jericho: Wrestlemania X8 was one of the strangest nights in WWE history. Backstage politics were at an all time high because of NWO members clashing with current Superstars. Hogan/Rock seemed to loom largely over the card and overshadowed what should have been a night for Hunter and Jericho. Their match wasn't bad but sometimes lack of heat can really ruin perception. This match had zero heat. Not to mention the writers really left both guys out in the dust on this one. In the months following they did a better job to resurrect it but could never really get it going. Unfortunately for Chris at the time, he was stuck in a position where so many big names were floating around the main event scene at the best time. However, as luck would have it, he's come back better than ever and the best always find a way to make it happen.

You watched the feud, right? Was Chris Jericho the focus? Fuck no, it was Triple H VS. Stephanie! What's Jericho supposed to when he's champion, and yet not event the center of his own fucking feud. He was a patsy, someone to just be there for Steph and Trips marital problems. Of course Y2J didn't get a fair shake

Goldberg: While a proven draw in his early run in WCW, Vince Russo and the horrible writing crew had sucked most of the life out of his character. It also didn't help that during his first few months in the company he got into spats with Chris Jericho. His matches with The Rock and Jericho also suffered greatly. I think they were asking too much of him early on as an in ring competitor. WWE really missed the boat on making him look unbeatable. By the time SummerSlam rolled around most of the damage had already been done. One thing that Triple H did do was give him a good heel to work off of. Their Unforgiven match wasn't anything spectacular, but an injured Triple H sold Goldberg's offense like it was shotgun shells to the chest. I think Hunter did the best he could with a guy that creative had already dropped the ball with.

And that's the reason Triple H would have worked with him. Believe me, if it was a Goldberg who was as hot as 1998, I guarantee you, he would have been moved to Smackdown. Because if he was actually over, Triple H would want no part of him.

In closing, I feel that Triple H gets a bad wrap. Yes, he doesn't always do the best thing for the other guy in the ring. However, to say that he ruined chances for guys is completely absurd. Those guys all received multiple chances. Some made something of it with Hunter others made something of it without Hunter and on their own. The ones that failed, did so because of their own shortcomings not because of Hunter. I think saying that about Triple H sometimes gives him too much credit for something the writers have done.

Where were the multiple chances? They all pretty much got buried, and were done. None of them ever got the win with Trips if they actually connected with the fans. See; RVD and Kane. Everyone else, Triple H had done his business, and already had them buried. These guys didn't have a chance. All they had was an illusion that they would be in the main event, which shock and awe, when working against others, they brought down the house, and made it back to the main event.

Far away from Triple H, mind you.

And we go from the really good post... To the really bad post.

This is simple.....HHH was on RAW basically by himself because he is pretty much capable of carrying a show/brand, by HIMSELF. And Vince knows that which is why he did what he did. I am not a huge fan of HHH, but it just seems like he has the ability to elevate a show by just being on it

You're serious? You really think any performer, not just one that doesn't connect with fans and isn't over? Can carry an entire show by himself? Yeah, no. Get a grip, and be realistic. Triple H buried names, period

 

[harrythem]

I think my problem hasn't been Triple H keeping the big names away from him. It's the needless squashing of those that have the chance to move upwards to the main event on Raw. Yeah he did a great job with Batista and John Cena but, Batista was his buddy and Cena was the McMahon project. When it came against The Spirit Squad he was a shit. Fair enough their gimmick was trash but, when DX could kick the crap out of the five of them with ease, it gave the guys no chance. Tick the same box with Dibiase & Rhodes, DX might've lost one match to them (with HBK tapping cleanly) but, when it came to the blow-off the the feud, DX got the win.

I think it's not just that he's torpedoed raw that's stunning, it's that this company is going to be left to him and his kids, so he's literally pissing over his families future, which is just the craziest thing of all.

 

[AttitudeAJM]

I'm sorry, shouldn't the ear drum shattering pops been enough? We all knew Rob Van Dam was mad over, and I agree that Triple H did drop losses to him, in tag team matches. That said, it was very obvious that the fans wanted RVD as champion for a while now. Hell, people were clamoring for him to win the title back in 2001. Mind you, that wasn't happening, but RVD always had the ability. He was thrown into an Angle-Austin feud that couldn't draw, because they were forced to have PPV caliber matches on live TV for free. Why pay for it when you get it free? Anyway, RVD wasn't at fault for not drawing, but Triple H was able to spin it so that Dam wasn't a draw, and so he didn't go over, in spite of what everyone and their mother wanted.

The internet was clamoring to see RVD win, former ECW fans were clamoring to see RVD win, WWF/WWE fans could have cared less. This is why the match didn't even main event a ppv. WWE fans were far more interested (and deservedly so) in the Lesnar/Undertaker feud. RVD's run in ECW was good but you could also say that he never drew. ECW's "money making period" was not when he was main eventing shows. Their best storylines and in ring product wasn't even when he was on top. Again, I love RVD but he has never proven to be a legit draw.

I can see this, to an extent. However, I'd also argue that once Triple H saw how over Kane was, not noticing before that he was over to begin with, and focusing on the fact that he wasn't a draw, he saw fit to be in Creative's Ear (Chaired by his wife, mind you. Can't forget that little tidbit). It's understood that Creative has a hand, but for the love of God, they had Triple H consolidating the IC Title and WHC. Can you tell me the point of that? I mean, it's just asking to cripple the mid card, so that there can;t be anyone else in power but those that were already there.

Kane has never been completely over as a face. Not to mention that creative never had any thought of what to do with him as a face. They're best stuff for him has always come in a heel role. I agree with you that consolidating the belts when the roster was inflated was enormously stupid. But I think you give Triple H too much of the credit here. He may have had people's ear when needed but I don't think he was in it enough or even that he cared about the IC belt in general.

Well, yeah, my question is more, why was Scott Steiner put in that position to begin with? Simple enough, because he could play a scapegoat for Triple H, and when the results were bad, and they were, Triple H could blame yet another unproven draw.

Why would Triple H even bother? He had just finished a program that produced two great matches with Shawn Michaels. He didn't need a scapegoat. Two months earlier he broke his layrix and still finished a match. I doubt he needed a scapegoat for anything.

You watched the feud, right? Was Chris Jericho the focus? Fuck no, it was Triple H VS. Stephanie! What's Jericho supposed to when he's champion, and yet not event the center of his own fucking feud. He was a patsy, someone to just be there for Steph and Trips marital problems. Of course Y2J didn't get a fair shake

I can't disagree that this was a horribly booked storyline. However the only point I will argue is that again I think you place too much of the blame on Triple H and not enough on Vince or the writers. Triple H doesn't own or run the WWE. Vince does, and Vince was the many that okayed this horrendous storyline.

And that's the reason Triple H would have worked with him. Believe me, if it was a Goldberg who was as hot as 1998, I guarantee you, he would have been moved to Smackdown. Because if he was actually over, Triple H would want no part of him.

Triple H has worked with some of the hottest draws in history and produced great stuff. Why would he not want to work with Goldberg even more if he white hot as he was in 1999. Don't underestimate the fact that pro wrestling is all about money and a program with a crazy over Goldberg would have equated money. No one would have turned that down.

Where were the multiple chances? They all pretty much got buried, and were done. None of them ever got the win with Trips if they actually connected with the fans. See; RVD and Kane. Everyone else, Triple H had done his business, and already had them buried. These guys didn't have a chance. All they had was an illusion that they would be in the main event, which shock and awe, when working against others, they brought down the house, and made it back to the main event.

You make it out like Triple H ruined their careers. RVD was given a shot and he ruined it by getting busted on the side of a highway. Triple H had nothing to do with that. Now I won't get into an argument over whether or not his punishment was too harsh. More than likely I'll agree that it was. However, when you are aware of the position you're in, sometimes you have to play it safe. Kane has been in and out of big angles his entire career and seems to be bulletproof to bad angles at this point.

 

[Lou134K]

you actually make a seriously good point mate but the fact is apart from rock and austin they were all lackluster compared to hhh and you are clearly a hhh hater so you shouldnt comment on the matter

 

[harrythem]

they had Triple H consolidating the IC Title and WHC. Can you tell me the point of that? I mean, it's just asking to cripple the mid card, so that there can;t be anyone else in power but those that were already there.

I completely forgot about that (or blanked it out). I think the worst part was that, even with all it's lineage (and he'd won it a few times on the way up himself) Triple H didn't even pick up and celebrate with both titles after he beat Kane. The Warrior was the shits, and he didn't give a toss about the wrestling business, but at least at Mania 6 he was celebrating with both belts. Triple H might've well have stuck two fingers up at all those that have held, chased, or cared about that belt over the years. Truth be told, the IC title's never fully recovered since it was brought back.

 

[gordonfly2002]

If anyone still has any doubts, just check the T.V. ratings. You can find them online. In a nutshell Raw goes from 6-7's to 4's. Face it, Trips isn't a draw and if he wasn't Mr. Stephanie McMahon he would probably be gone or in the process of being phased out!

 

[Yarrie]

HHH is awesome. There are so many haters out there. Even if he Hunter does use his family connections to stay on top, so what, who wouldn't. But the crowds love him.
As for him being the reason HBK is on top. WHATEVER!!! HBK is a legend and is awesome in every way.
HHH may have the belt alot, but Cena, Orton, Edge etc are all catching up. HHH is happy to be a heel and have a million people chant 'you suck', when he could be the face of the company instead of Cena.
People who hate Trips are jealous coz he is so AWESOME, 2nd only to Shawn. Raw isn't worth watching without those two at the moment.

 

[harrythem]

HHH is awesome.

Well, nice neutral start there

Even if he Hunter does use his family connections to stay on top, so what, who wouldn't.

I don't know, perhaps someone who's going to inherit the business and be using it as his source of income when he retires. Perhaps someone that gets a higher level of income when more people pay to watch him, which more will do when there are more people on a level playing field. Or maybe even someone, I don't know, who claims to be a huge wrestling fan all his life who always bangs on about respect for the business.

HHH is happy to be a heel and have a million people chant 'you suck', when he could be the face of the company instead of Cena.

He was the face of the company for years on Raw back in the mid 00s, business didn't do to well with him on top squashing everyone. Didn't drop off a cliff, but lost a lot of steam.

People who hate Trips are jealous coz he is so AWESOME, 2nd only to Shawn. Raw isn't worth watching without those two at the moment.

Nobody has said he isn't good. He's one of the most solid workers around, has been for years (except during his radioactive triceratops period). It's that, unlike Cena (and very much like HBK) Triple H can make someone look amazing (like he did with Batista and, to a lesser extent, Jeff Hardy) but, more often then not (like when he lost that No.1 contender match to Jeff Hardy) he tends to make the people that could challenge for spot, not look as good. It's not even just opinion, you look at the results over the years and it's a fact. Hell, the dude can't even handle having people seeing him lost in a computer game!

 

[ianfromlondon]

Here is my take on this and you guys can agree or disagree this is just my point of view

maybe to start off with HHH was a jerk and kept people down lets face it if you were in his shoes maybe you would do the same to be top of your profession

but over the past few years it looks like HHH has actually started to love the business and relised that he needs to stop hogging the spotlight himself

the reason i say this is HHH hasnt really been champion often the last few years and when he has been he lost it within a month and kinda went away from the title picture

he has also put over a load of guys that he wouldnt of say 3-4 years ago, some people might call him selfish or whatever you wanna call him but having him as a face has shown me a different side to HHH, with his humor and willingness to put over people

i have found respect for trips over the past 1-2 years that he seems to have finally realised that in order for there to be a wwe in the future he needs to let younger talent rise

people seem to not think of what he has done the past few years instead they still have a bad image of him from before

he has not held as many world titles and im sure that will change when he comes back as a heel as the leader of nexus and people will moan and comlain how he is champ again

give him a bit more credit people he really deserves it

 

[JJYanks121]

This thread truly amuses me, mostly because everyone is either kissing Tenta's ass because of his massive rep, or they are using menial points without looking at the bigger picture. I will give you credit Tenta, you lured everyone into your argument and kept them in a vacuum so as not to expand upon any ideas to prove you wrong. Well, I'm not easily intimidated, so I'm going to give the devil's advocate role a shot. Here goes:

The first point that NOBODY hit on was that this period of time was awfully thin in terms of star power all around. Keep in mind, the years of 1998-2002 were really controlled by 5 guys, maybe 6. Those men are Austin, Rock, Foley, Taker, Angle, and Triple H. In the time from 2000-2002, Foley retired, Stone Cold finished up, and Rock left for Hollywood, leaving Trips, Taker, and Angle left as proven draws. Yep, that's it. The only other people on the roster before the invasion that had main-evented Pay Per Views were Jericho and Kane if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps Benoit like once (against Rock I believe), but nobody proven over a period of time to be draws. Thus, as the invasion came in without the star power of WCW, it was tough to gage who could draw from that group, if anyone.

What people fail to realize are the the "invaders" were talents from two companies that were folding. These were certainly not the best talent either company could offer. ECW had lost most of their top talent to WWE or WCW already, though very little of that talent ever proved it could draw on a mainstream level anyway. Want proof? Taz had a hot debut, ending Angle's undefeated streak, but did little afterwords. Blame it on Triple H all you want, but let's be honest. The guy is supposed to be the toughest man on the planet............at 5'5". It might work to the niche audience in ECW, but to the WWE audience who has Kane, Undertaker, Big Show, and others, a man that size isn't going to intimidate any of those men. Sorry, but don't blame Triple H, blame genetics for making Taz quite short.

As for the rest, perhaps the only person of note from ECW was Rob Van Dam, who while over with that audience, wasn't proven within WWE. Hell, he wasn't even given the major title while IN ECW! Can't really clamor for him to carry the "A" show if he wasn't put on top of the "C" company.

None of this gets to you point yet, I understand that, but I was building a little background for my argument. By the time the invasion was over and the brand split occurred, how many established main eventers were there? If your answer was not many, you are right. So let's assume Undertaker, Angle, Rock (who's barely around), Stone Cold (who's on his last legs), and Trips are the big draws. In that draft, 3 go to Smackdown while 2 go to Raw. Admittedly, that's a a drop lopsided, but with Shawn Michaels returning, Raw gains the A program as no program was bigger that year than HBK/HHH. You can argue all you want that HBK didn't need to be in the main event picture, but he had never feuded with Triple H and it was a money feud to be done. No one knew if Shawn could go full time, and if you are WWE and think you have limited matches in him, are you matching him up against HHH in an emotion filled match, or against RVD just to try and elevate him? Exactly.

Over on Smackdown, Brock was getting a crazy push, and became a main eventer quite quickly, but after his feud with Rock, Rock is gone. Thus, he is left with Undertaker and Big Show as his "money matches". Not exactly a lot of options there. Add in Angle for Wrestlemania, but let's not kid ourselves and think there's more there than that. If you are going to try and sell me on your Benoits and Guerrerros, I will show you RVD and Jericho on Raw as midcarders who wrestle well and don't draw incredibly. It's even steven there.

The truth of the matter is that there just aren't stars at this point. Overall in WWE, it is a tough, transitional time. It isn't until 2005 when Batista and Cena become champions that bona fide stars are truly found. If you want to argue that Booker T could have been one of those guys spanning from WM 19, maybe that's true. However, that is ONE example and not a great one at that. You're talking about establishing a new main eventer...........who's almost 40. I know Batista was in the same boat, but his story wrote itself and it worked. Booker's push would have been more difficult to achieve. Either way, WWE tried to milk their older guys for all they were worth at that point. Thus, you got Kevin Nash and Scott Steiner towards the top of the card, because despite their fading skills, both hadn't been in WWE for a while and having feuds with them at the top was fresh..........or as fresh as you could get at that time.

Using Triple H as a scapegoat here is about as poor an excuse as you could come up with. Triple H was a talent and draw at the time. Very few others were. Would things have been slightly different if Angle or Taker were on Raw? Maybe, but not much. You still would have gotten the money HBK/Triple H feud and you still would probably have gotten Stiener and Nash at the top. These guys, despite main eventing for a folding company, had more credibility than others at that time.

As for Goldberg, everyone and their mom want to criticize his time in WWE, but what else would you have done? Book him in squash matches against everyone? Have him sqaush the champion in 5 minutes? Maybe he'd go undefeated in WWE and just forfeit the title as he left in dominance? Come on now. I understand it is a sore spot for some people, but the guy WAS a draw in that his matchups with WWE superstars were fresh and he was the one big star that hadn't come to WWE yet. If you think Triple H buried him, you might want to recheck your facts. Trips cheated to retain his title in the Elimination chamber, then lost even WITH help from Evolution, then it took months and the combination of Evolution and Kane for Trips to get the title back. Not exactly a way to make Triple H seem one on one to be better than Goldberg. In fact, I'd argue it is exactly the opposite. Goldberg was so dominant that it took ridiculous circumstances for Triple H to take him down.

I will close by saying that politics are a normal thing in WWE just like any other job. Obviously people politic and do things to help their careers. However, I don't feel Triple H is as ridiculous as you are making him seem. He didn't ship all the good talent off to Smackdown because there simply wasn't a ton of talent at that time, at least not established talent. This was just a bad period for WWE on both Raw and Smackdown, one that didn't improve until 2005. You can't blame a few bad years all around on Triple H, you just can't. It was just a bad time for the Wrestling business.

 

[JuviJuiceIsLoose]

What about the Unification of the Intercontinental Championship with the World Heavyweight Championship. As a part of that "one show, one champion" bullshit.

IMO, there was no reason for get rid of a title with that kind of lineage.

The fact that the Unification of those titles took a back seat to that god awful Katie Vick storyline made it worse.

I don't know if Unifying the titles was Hunter's idea, but the fact he was involved in the two titles coming together at a time where he was looked at a untouchable, may not have put him in the best light.