Same here. Randall may have had the opportunity to do well before Punk, but Orton has busted his ass too, and there's no arguing with that.
Yes there is. Look, I'm about to do it!
So smoking weed now prohibits you from going further in a fantasy wrestling tournament?
Jesus Christ you are one condescending bastard. I was simply pointing out that Orton isn't as dedicated to the craft as CM Punk. Until Orton fell in line behind Triple H and Vince McMahon, he had a serious attitude problem, and one of the things he got in trouble for was smoking weed backstage during shows. Now I'm all for rolling up a joint and lighting that bad boy up to relax, but do that shit on your own time, don't blow the smoke in your boss's face.
How did CM Punk win his first World Heavyweight Championship? He cashed in his Money in the Bank briefcase on a beaten-down Edge. I see nothing wrong with that win, but it wasn't exactly clean.
It's a good thing I haven't used that as an example then, otherwise I'd be a hypocrite. He did, however, have clean victories over JBL during that reign. He also beat Jeff Hardy a few times cleanly during his second and third reign.
Punk has also had plenty of help from the different factions he's been in charge. Do I have a problem with that? No. Why? Because he was a heel. That's what heels do.
But in this tournament neither man will have the advantage of having their factions be able to run in and interfere on their behalf. You could argue that Orton will have a friend to distract Punk, but then Punk could also have a friend that will distract Orton.
And I was saying the same for Orton.
Has Orton ever last 60 minutes? What about 93? No? Moving on then.
Sure I can. Orton lost to John Cena, the biggest name in professional wrestling, right now. The most unstoppable force in the business, right now. No man needs to be ashamed of a loss, but Cena is a bigger deal than Hero, no question.
I would feel no better or worse about the Jets losing to the Patriots than the Jets losing to the Bills. A loss is a loss is a loss.
And I believe Orton pinned Hardy at his absolute best, so that doesn't mean a whole lot.
Err, Orton pinned Hardy before Hardy was ever a champion. Punk won the belt off of Hardy. Advantage: Punk.
And yeah, Hardy is not HBK. Shawn didn't have a weak period. He may have been away from the title picture due to age and trying to help young guys get a shot, but he also main evented WrestleMania just last year. Face it, HBK is a much bigger deal.
Only in the fact that he was a legend. I suppose you could argue beating a Shawn Michaels that is wrestling after a nearly career ending back injury is just as good or slightly better than beating a prime Jeff Hardy... oh, but wait! THERE ARE CONDITIONS AGAIN! At Unforgiven 03, Orton beat Shawn Michaels after 1) Ric Flair put Orton's foot on the rope thus breaking up the 3 count Shawn would have gotten on Orton and then 2) Orton hit HBK with a pair of brass knuckles!
Then, at Judgment Day 2007, Orton attacked HBK before the match, and HBK wrestled the entire match injured as a result of those attacks. In fact, Orton never pinned Shawn in the match, after Shawn hit an elbow drop, he attempted to hit Sweet Chin Music, but he collapsed as a result of the injuries sustained prior to the match.
These matches were RIDDLED with cheating. In fact, these wins are so worthless that they are worthy of a patented Nick B condescending smiley.
Same can be said for Punk.
Negative. As I pointed out late in my last point, Punk beat them by skill and tenacity, not cheating.
Indy equivalent, being the key phrase. I have absolutely nothing against independent promotions, but the WWE is a bigger deal.
So are we supposed to hold it against Punk that he didn't have a free ride into the WWE?
No, it still is. In fact, it ALWAYS is. Until you provide the big wrestling dictionary's definition of prime, it will always be a muddy concept.
(Referring to strength in booking)Depending on the exposure, sure.
So once again, we hold the fact that Punk had to pay his dues against him and reward Orton for being the son of Cowboy Bob? That seems... unfair.
(In reference to drawing money)I would say so.
Then the tournament is over, and Hulk Hogan beat Stone Cold in the final!
And I'm simply telling you Orton did the same thing, on a bigger stage, for a lot more people to see.
So... then it's a draw?
Hell In A Cell PPV, 2009. A Punt for the 1-2-3. No one interfered.
Ah yes, what a crazy time it was in the WWE. Orton lost the title to Cena at the PPV prior to it, won it back at Hell in a Cell, and then lost it again at the next PPV!
Orton has been a heel most of his career, nearly all of it. Heels are booked differently, and you know it.
Yes, they are booked as weak and unable to win without the aid of friends or cheating. I don't see your point.
Also, how many times has Randy Orton lost a one-on-one match, clean, since the Royal Rumble in 2010? You can count that shit on one hand. Since the crowd turned him into a babyface, he's been as dominant as anyone on that roster.
Jack Swagger beat him cleanly at Extreme Rules. 'Nuff said.
And if he was so unstoppable, then how come he couldn't win the Fatal 4 Way at Fatal 4 Way or Money in the Bank at Money In the Bank?
Same thing with any other heel, CM Punk included.
CM Punk won his title cleanly in ROH, and he won the title back from Jeff Hardy cleanly and also retained it cleanly in a triple threat with Edge and Jeff Hardy, albeit by being tricky.
If someone else snuck through the crowd and hit the GTS for Punk, then I could see where you're coming from
It's a bad example, so please, just stop.
It's really not. You're assuming even if Randy Orton was beaten down hard by Punk he'd be able to avoid the GTS because he would be expecting it. That's just insane, not even legends like Hulk Hogan or Steve Austin were able to avoid their opponent's finishers, they were able to kick out of them. Face it, in a match that is this high profile Orton WILL BE HIT WITH THE GTS, and we've seen that he cannot kick out of it.
Yeah, I am. Heels win that way. It happens. Are you forgetting the way CM Punk won some of his matches while playing a heel??
Yes, but when he was at his strongest he didn't cheat to win. That's the CM Punk I'm going by.
Come on, JGlass. It was a total sneak attack, and it wasn't Punk's match. He came out of nowhere, and hit his finisher.
As stated before, Randy Orton is going to be hit by the GTS in this match, and it's proven to be a solid enough move to finish Punk off. That's the main point here.
Someone grabbed Punks leg. Holy. Shit. Someone call a cop. The RKO put him out, and Orton pinned him. If someone had hit Punk with a chair, given him a finishing move (like Punk did to Orton at the Rumble), I could see your point. But grabbing a leg? Weak. If Punk cannot deal with someone grabbing his leg, how is he going to deal with Randy Orton in his prime? Ya know, the guy who rarely loses.
CM Punk wasn't at his prime then. You're taking the argument out of context, the point was that Orton wouldn't have been able to win without the distraction, so the fact that he beat CM Punk is moot, almost like every other one of your arguments.
No, it hinges on Orton hitting the RKO, like he did the first time, and that being enough to keep Punk down for three. It's not Orton's fault if Punk cannot handle someone grabbing his leg in a freakin' Lumberjack Match.
Yeah, except Punk also got molested by Sexual Chocolate on the outside. Also, Punk wasn't at his prime. So a not prime Punk would have beaten a nearly prime (I'd say second strongest point of his career) without the aid of the Silverback (has there ever been a more racist nickname?) and the lumber jacks.
And back to the original point, I don't doubt that Orton would hit the RKO, I doubt that would be enough to keep down Punk.
Also, lets not forget how Orton took some punishment from those guys on the outside as well.
Point?
And as you said yourself, Orton is in his prime right now. And as I pointed out earlier, you can count on one hand how many times Orton has lost clean since turning babyface. He's been dominant. I'm sorry, but some kid from the Indy leagues isn't walking into WWE, right now, and beating Randy Orton. It just isn't happening.
Or.. Orton gets the win, like he has over bigger and better names than CM Punk.
I'm not responding after this, seeing this is a fantasy wrestling tournament and all. But someone needed to make a case for Orton, so I did my best. Orton, right now, is a bigger deal than CM Punk has ever been. Orton doesn't lose clean to almost anyone (in the last year, his prime), and I highly doubt an Indy wrestler (Punk's prime, according to you) is going to get the job done.[/QUOTE]
Who has he beat that was that impressive? Sheamus? I'd put a prime Punk over him. Miz? Ha. Wade Barrett? What has he even accomplished? A prime Punk is a much different beast than any of Orton's opponents during his Viper incarnation.
I have no doubts that this would be a close match, but here's how I imagine the finish going down.
CM Punk would set up Orton for the GTS, but Orton would reverse it into an RKO. He goes for the pin, but Punk kicks out at 2 and 7/8. Orton gets frustrated, REALLY frustrated. He lines Punk up for a punt, and he goes for it, but Punk gets his head out of the way at the last second and takes Orton down with a leg lock. After about 30-45 seconds of enduring the submission hold, Orton escapes and stomps away at CM Punk. He does his taunting thing, and CM Punk stands up, turns around, and Orton goes for a second RKO, but Punk pushes him into the ropes, and picks Orton up off the rebound and sets him up for the GTS. Orton grabs the ropes but Punk manages to pull him away. Orton is trying to kick out but his legs are weakened from the long match and the leg lock he had to endure. CM Punk hits the GTS and nearly collapses onto Orton, and gets the three count. Punk is exhausted and badly beaten, but he is the winner.
