Bad Taste?

[Y 2 Jake]

Benoit didn't have the monopoly on the move. Pleanty of other wrestlers have used it before him. It's also one of the best submission moves out there. WWE should have tried to claim it back earlier. Somebody else was going to start using it eventually, WWE just got there first.

 

[Lil Wes]

The crossface at the moment (not forever), but at the moment is more than 'just a wrestling move', it was a tool used in a horrible horrible chain of events.

Seeing that move then used at Survivor Series made me uncomfortable

It's nothing more than a wrestling move, because that's what it is. The Beniot shit happened 5 months ago, It's time for people and WWE to move on. We can't sit around 5 years making sure the headbutt, crossface and german suplexes aren't used anymore. I don't see what the problem is with him using a submission move during a match were he has no finisher. WWE is basically saying "Here, the Beniot thing is over" same thing with the Screwjob when he locked in the Sharpshooter. Time to move on, HBK is always controversial and on the 10 year anniversary we needed some controversy.

 

[wicked_rex]

Just my two cents here but, is it really that big of a deal that Shawn used the Crossface at Survivor Series? Yes, there are still some people that are angered and annoyed by the actions taken by Benoit but, clearly that match was Vince's way of telling the fans and/or the media that "on camera", he and the WWE have forgotten about Benoit and are moving on. Now, I know that different people will see using the Crossface in different way - which is fine - but, in my opinion it's no big deal. I think we can all agree that the Sharpshooter was absolutely going to happen and, I was a little surprised to see the Ankle Lock but, if you remember from RAW last week, Shawn did reference that he could be a submission wrestler, too... and what are the three most well-known submissions in the past ten years?

 

[BRandonkin]

Yeah. The whole idea was that he was wrestler. it was moves. He started with a necklock. Did the sharpshooter. Did the cross face. Did the ankle lock. He did the three best known submission holds, and he was going for the figure four before orton kick him into the turnbuckle,from three of the best submission wrestlers of all time who michaels has fued with and had great matches with. A good match and I think we need more submission style wrestlers.

 

[foof]

I think it's a testament to how good of a storyteller Shawn Michaels is in the ring. (and how good the agents and match booking people are too). Normally, it's a challenge to try and tell a story in the ring as it is... but what Michaels did was tell a story that transcended the match itself. What I mean by that is not only did Orton and Michaels do a good job of working the match and their rivalry (their whole "no superkick" storyline), Michaels also managed to showcase his evolution over the years in this business.
As noted, Michaels had numerous feuds/matches with all thee (Angle, Hart and Benoit) and so it makes perfect sense that he would learn from those experiences. As character development it works beautifully. I do not think it was in poor taste... I rather think it's proper, if not excellent, storytelling.

Side note, especially at this point, where this thread isn't huge.... it would be really helpful if people actually read the other posts before they themselves respond. A lot of you are writing the same thing over and over, without actually expanding or adding anymore insight to arguments already presented. Makes it boring to read, and annoying to have to go through.

My 2 cents.

 

[midgensa]

I have no problem with him using it. He mentioned making Orton tap, so trying a variety of ways to do that may the match exciting, No problems with the move at all. Screw Benoit ... his moves are open territory now and should be available to anyone who feels they need another move to add to their repertoire.

 

[Matt Phoenix]

michaels was using the moves because they've been the most famous submission moves in recent years, not because of who they represent.

Could have picked a few to quote but i chose this one, totally agree with this statement. Three of the greatest submission holds that have made the greatest tap over the years, it would only make sense that Shawn would use these.

I mean he could've used a sleeper hold but when was the last time that that ended a match he had to use holds that made you think that Randy would tap out to them.

Everyone has already made the point that Benoit doesnt own it i would think that this was an almost non issue

But hey just my opinion

 

[lonely_god]

No, most of you are completely missing the point I'm trying to make..

Here is a quote from an online review of survivor series...

"With his legs shot, and never a submission specialist, Shawn’s attempts at Bret Hart’s Sharpshooter – which he used to screw Bret with at this event 10 years ago – and TNA champion Kurt Angle’s Ankle Lock were pretty awful.


But his aping of the Crippler Crossface, made famous by Chris Benoit, added bad taste into the mix.


Given police feel that Benoit used a version of the hold to murder his seven-year-old son, it was a rather odd ‘tribute’ to pay when John Cena’s SFTU or any one of 100 other moves could have fitted the bill."

The whole review can be found at... http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/wrestling/article486847.ece

 

[flashhazzard]

I did not see the ppv match, but it doesn't bother me that he used the submissions. It actually makes me want to watch the match now. Those submissions are over huge with crowds. I don't have a problem with Shawn or anybody using them.

 

[alex0000000]

This is a bit silly, I mean its a wrestling move, fair enough it was linked to Benoit, but it wasn't his move, i mean even JR still has it on his menu if i remember correctly. It didn't shock me at all, its a well known submission move just like the sharp shooter and the ankle lock, not to mention it's a rubbish looking move, and was not sold at all well, they should have just used a figure four or something similar, that Orton could have worked with.

well on jr's menu its referring to the amture move .... get your facts strait and another point is chris beniot did not event the cripplercrossface noticed i used the proper nae it was invented in japan by those wresters so everyone calm down jeez ...... though beniot commited the hannious acts to his deaths he still brought fans to the stands when he was alive and no one can take that away from him

 

[vega13mv]

in a nutshell, i dont think any wrestler should "own" any move. the sharpshooter, crossface, and ankle lock may have been famous by individuals, but it shuldnt mean that it only pertains to them. if you watch TNA, you'll notice a lot of guys using high profile finishers like the rock bottom and the stone cold stunner, which makes for a great match because they are great maneuvers. in then end, its just a move, and im glad the WWE is moving on from the incidednt. but i should note that the way it was used must of had some underlined meaning seeing as how it was used during the sharpshooter and ankle lock sequence, im not one to judge its appropiateness tho.

 

[BRandonkin]

Everyone keeps saying Kurt Angle, with anklelock. I think Micahels and the WWE was taking a shot at the UFC and Ken Shamrock. And HBK was taking a shot not at Bret Hart, but Sting using the Scorpion Death Lock because his TNA and never came to WWE. And HBK was taking a shot at MVP because everyone knows he used the crossface to win his matches in his developmental territories(all Sarcasm)

The point is, they are wrestling moves. And I think it great that Shawn broke it in so that when some does it next week, or it because some finisher, we don't have to here this again. I mean no more Perfect Plexes because he past on. No more torture racks because Luger was involved in Elizabeths death. We need to stop being so senstive to everything, someone does.

 

[lonely_god]

yes.. but.. a child was killed in a version of the crossface..

the crossface wasn't created by Benoit, it wasn't owned by Benoit.. BUT HE USED IT TO KILL A CHILD...!!

I'm sorry if my feelings get me banned or watever.. but at the end of the day.. the crossface was a tool used in those murders..

to answer someone earlier.. if shawn michael used the superkick to knock someones head off in 'real life' then, yes, i wouldn't expect to see that move for a long time..

a handful of months isn't long enough to see the move again

I'd have no problem with seeing the flying headbutt, but to see a move that killed a 7 year old kid, yes.. I have a problem with seeing that

 

[BRandonkin]

Sorry, I know the boy was strangle, but I thought he was smother with a pillow, not with a crossface. I don't think chris used the move to kill his own son

 

[lonely_god]

Sorry, I know the boy was strangle, but I thought he was smother with a pillow, not with a crossface. I don't think chris used the move to kill his own son

well according to the police he used a modified version of the crossface to kill the kid

and strangle and smother are two different things.

 

[foof]

yes.. but.. a child was killed in a version of the crossface..

the crossface wasn't created by Benoit, it wasn't owned by Benoit.. BUT HE USED IT TO KILL A CHILD...!!

Eh... Were you at the scene of the crime? How the hell can anyone prove... Or even assert that Benoit used the crossface to kill hiis son? I can believe he choked his son based on how the police reports described the poor boy... But there is no sure way to know he used that particular move. This, imo, is just another media overblown statement... "well he was a wrestler, so he must have used a wrestling hold to do it" i dont think so. I call bullshit on that one.

 

[Derf]

I was shocked when I saw this happen. I don't know what to think of this, but I know now that if it was any wrestler that brough it back, I'm glad it was HBK. He's got that thing where he's all godly now, yet he can do anything controversial and not get shit on for it. Even if the WWE used it cause it was a simple wrestling move, does anyone not think someone out there would say "Hey look, it's the Crossface! That dead guy used that move!" I knew the second I saw it, I'd be posting in this very threat withen a few days, and here I am.

 

[justinsayne]

its not a case of the dead guy using it.. its a case of the dead guy killing his child with it..

He didn't kill his child with it, that report was false, he killed his child be smothering him with a pillow, please make sure you have your facts straight before throwing false information out there

As for HBK doing the move, I have no problem with it at all, it's a fucking wrestling move, just because a guy who murdered his family, and killed himself used the move doesn't mean the move should never be seen in WWE again, why is it people are taking issue with the Crossface, but nobody has a problem with the fact that Santino used the flying headbutt in his match on Raw this week, nobody seems to have a problem with the fact that people still do chops in the corner, or german suplexes, or any other move that Benoit used, it's just a move nothing more, stop over anylizeing everything and just enjoy the show

 

[joet1102]

well according to the police he used a modified version of the crossface to kill the kid

and strangle and smother are two different things.

Did it actually say he used a MODIFIED CRIPPLER CROSSFACE on the police report? That would be a little obscure...anyways


Okay I think heres where the WWE or HBK was going. I believe that it was a nod to the storied career for Shawn Michaels. He was unable to use the finisher that he's used for most of his career. So Shawn dug deep down and used the moves that has defeated himself before. He has tapped to the sharpshooter, the crossface, and the ankle lock. I believe that is the reasoning for the move. Shawn tried using moves that defeated him before to defeat Randy Orton. I don't think it was in bad taste at all. It's a wrestling move and that's all it is. Did JR scream and say it was the "Crippler" Crossface? NO! Did JR scream, "He's using the finisher of the late great Chris Benoit!" ? NO! Nothing of Chris Benoit was mentioned, not his nickname, not his real finisher name, not anything. It was only a wrestling move used on HBK in the past, and HBK was using it in hope that Orton would succumb to the same fate that HBK did when the move was used on him.

 

[resin8]

I'll be honest, I haven't read all 5 pages here. When Shawn locked in the crossface during the PPV, my husband and I looked at each, eyes wide as dinner plates. And my husband, the better Catholic of the two of us, said to me. "Forgiveness. And being remembered for what you did right, NOT what you did wrong."

Beyond that, HBK used 3 submission moves by three of the best submission wrestlers out there. It doesn't matter whether or not he, or the company, have or had any respect for the individuals who made the moves known, it's a matter that at that point Shawn felt that submissions might give him the win. So who are you going to emulate at that point? You're going to emulate the most successful wrestler's moves. Did you expect a noogie of death?

 

[Perfect_Plex]

The way I see it is the crossface is a pretty cool move and shouldn't be banned just because some juiced up ******ed killer used to use it.

 

[Rated K for Kennedy... Kennedy!]

Yeah man I mean banning the Crossface cos of what "Pegasus" did is like banning the torture rack cos Luger allegadely killed Elizabeth, its just a move that fans like and if we see it again it might help some people get over it, and anyway, Dean Malenko invented it so I see it as props for him!

 

[R33f]

I'm kind of shocked you guy's are still talking about this; bad taste? did anyone watch smackdown yesterday? Vicky? Edge? now that was bad taste.

That was really disturbing for me to watch, she still carry's eddy's name yet that scene was so uncomfortable. I'm well suprised no one has complained about that. In my opinion, that was bad taste!

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Why is it bad taste? Eddie has been dead for two years. And she's getting apid for it. Very well I imagine. It's not like she doesn't have the option of saying no. Yeah it got Kristal fired, but I doubt the same would happen to a widow of a wrestler. And at the end of the day, half of wrestling is acting.

 

[Luke-E]

OMFG! HBK use the crossface!!!!
Someone get him the sack! Its a total spit in the face of the benoits family.......wait.....hang on....come back to the real world a second people.

Just reading that Shawn does not respect these men makes me laugh, he may not like them but i am willing to put my life on it that he does respect them.

If you think about it he may have just used the moves because each one is famous for the following;

The crossface 'can break a mans neck', she he could have been using it to do that. I don't mean for real i mean story line wise.

The Ankle lock was used in WWE once-a-pon a time to 'break ortons ankle' so they could have been using that to bring back a story line and have a pop at Kurt.

And as for the Sharpshooter anyone that order the show should have known it was coming, there was noway in hell it would have been left out. Its called making a talking point.

Thats why all three were used, talking points and they have made them because just look at the thread peeps.