WZCW All Or Nothing 2013 with KB (Review Starts At Post 63)

[Harthan]

More importantly El Califa won MOTN.

Politics. Keep the conspiracy alive, people.

You'll get yours soon.

 

[Ty Burna]

Politics. Keep the conspiracy alive, people.

You'll get yours soon.

Looked like a pretty clean win to me .

 

[Remix]

I didn't really get any feel that Saxton and Saboteur had anything unique about them. They sounded like any two guys you might see on any given indy show. I didn't get the idea that one was crazy or why they were popular. They felt like two average guys who were a team. Maybe reading some of their promos would help but the match made them seem very basic.

They had a feud over a Bamm-Bamm spoon.

 

[klunderbunker]

They had a feud over a Bamm-Bamm spoon.

That could work.

 

[Harthan]

Full disclosure: my number one goal in the tag team title match was to sell Beard as a powerhouse machine. Everything else was a distant second.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

Man, that was incredibly interesting and raised some very, very good points that I myself often bring up.

There is a definite disconnect between peoples' characters and the way they are written and indeed the moves they use. Some of that is the creators' problem, and some of that is Creative. This is why I make such a big deal about something like themes - everything about your character needs to make sense in the context of the character or it can be completely jarring.

I'll use the tag match, as well as Saxton & Saboteur, as an example. I really don't understand why all of Saxton and Saboteur's tag matches seem to become brawls. I get that you guys are trying to show that Saxoteur are crazy and fun and whatever, but they ARE good guys, and sometimes it would be nice to have a simple tag team match, especially since it's between two teams that have shown nothing but respect towards each other during the whole feud.

I don't really understand the "kind of generic" comment when the two teams have the exact same dynamic, but again that could be with how Creative writes them. Maybe Beard and Saxton could have started with a humorous pose-off, or Gent could have held his hand out for a handshake, only for the other man look like he's going to reject it but taking it anyway.

Again, I think part of it is Creative writing matches rather than writing characters having matches. Now, writing matches is a pain in the ass, take it from me, but something other than "momma joke and wild brawl" would be nice when Saxton and Saboteur team up, unless of course it's against a team they don't like.

I also agree with the recapping point. That's something I try to always do when I'm on commentary for another fed. Remember that this could be someone's very first show - much like All or Nothing 2009 was for me. This could be the make-or-break for someone new, so you want to explain what you can without getting too explainy and alienating the older fans. It's a tough balance but it's definitely something you want to keep in mind.

All in all this was a really fascinating read, and it's definitely something different from how shows are usually read and reviewed. I'd love to see you do this with one of my (WWE13, so no reading!) eFed's PPVs some time, or at the very least maybe do another WZCW review in the future.

If I may, I think part of the reason Saxton matches turn into brawls is due to his move set.

I hate to call out names, but when I guest wrote a match that involved a member of the fed who is no longer here, they had a really limiting move set and the match was little more than punches and kicks.

 

[klunderbunker]

Full disclosure: my number one goal in the tag team title match was to sell Beard as a powerhouse machine. Everything else was a distant second.

Then success.

 

[Remix]

If I may, I think part of the reason Saxton matches turn into brawls is due to his move set.

I hate to call out names, but when I guest wrote a match that involved a member of the fed who is no longer here, they had a really limiting move set and the match was little more than punches and kicks.

I like to think I railroad creative to an extent. Parts of my moveset are designed to link together, like the shin kick => complete shot and complete shot => Koji clutch.

 

[The Doctor]

I didn't really get any feel that Saxton and Saboteur had anything unique about them. They sounded like any two guys you might see on any given indy show. I didn't get the idea that one was crazy or why they were popular. They felt like two average guys who were a team. Maybe reading some of their promos would help but the match made them seem very basic.

That's really unfortunate, considering I like to think we're the least generic guys in the fed. Action Saxton is a blaxploitation movie star who is supposed to do nothing but kung-fu moves, and all of his promos are films like "Action Saxton Saves Christmas" "Action Saxton in SHOPPING FOR DANGER", etc. Saboteur is a mercenary in spandex who leans on the Fourth Wall regularly, watches a lot of old sitcoms, and believes himself to have a healing factor. The two became a tag team after feuding over a Flintstones collector's spoon that Saboteur needed to complete his collection, culminating in a wild brawl that literally took up an entire episode of Meltdown and continued into Kingdom Come. They then went to marriage counseling, bonded over Space Jam, and have been a successful team ever since.

Honestly, the fact that you saw this and see them as generic worries me. Not anything of your doing, but Creative as a whole. If they can't get something as simple as "kung fu & spandex superhero tag team" across, then what the hell are they doing writing?

WWE13: maybe for your birthday.

Going to hold you to this.

 

[The Doctor]

If I may, I think part of the reason Saxton matches turn into brawls is due to his move set.

I hate to call out names, but when I guest wrote a match that involved a member of the fed who is no longer here, they had a really limiting move set and the match was little more than punches and kicks.

While that's true, that doesn't mean he can't get put into a grapple, for example, or that he doesn't know how to wristlock or headlock. He IS a wrestler, even if he is a kung-fu master. The trick is finding ways of putting that across while still getting the character across. Have him yell loudly or pose or do jumping kung-fu kicks. As for brawls, I mostly meant how they always seem to break down with every member going at it. It's kind of annoying when sometimes I just want a nice friendly wrestling match. Saxton's a nice guy at heart!

I get what you mean, though. I mostly just found it really interesting to hear what KB had to say since it's an outsider looking in to how Creative writes my character.

 

[FlexAmerican Dynamite]

Anyway, the alien idea was cute and it's something that would get over very easily if it could actually be done today.

Interesting, most people originally thought this was a horrible idea that wouldn't work. Seeing this is your first time seeing the gimmick what do you see differently?

 

[klunderbunker]

That's really unfortunate, considering I like to think we're the least generic guys in the fed. Action Saxton is a blaxploitation movie star who is supposed to do nothing but kung-fu moves, and all of his promos are films like "Action Saxton Saves Christmas" "Action Saxton in SHOPPING FOR DANGER", etc. Saboteur is a mercenary in spandex who leans on the Fourth Wall regularly, watches a lot of old sitcoms, and believes himself to have a healing factor. The two became a tag team after feuding over a Flintstones collector's spoon that Saboteur needed to complete his collection, culminating in a wild brawl that literally took up an entire episode of Meltdown and continued into Kingdom Come. They then went to marriage counseling, bonded over Space Jam, and have been a successful team ever since.

Honestly, the fact that you saw this and see them as generic worries me. Not anything of your doing, but Creative as a whole. If they can't get something as simple as "kung fu & spandex superhero tag team" across, then what the hell are they doing writing?

Here's what I see about their characters from the PPV:

They're faces
They slap hands on the way to the ring
They used to be tag champions
Saxton is annoyed at Saboteur signing a mask for no apparent reason

That's it. That's what I got out of the PPV. How interesting or intriguing does that sound?

 

[klunderbunker]

Interesting, most people originally thought this was a horrible idea that wouldn't work. Seeing this is your first time seeing the gimmick what do you see differently?

It's something different that opens up a lot of doors for comedy.

 

[Remix]

Maybe something like a tale of the tape at the beginning of the match would be helpful.

Show a photo of the wrestlers with some basic info about them. Name, Height, weight, finisher and a fun fact (either logical (info about the character) or insane (info about their favourite breakfast cereal)).

 

[The Doctor]

Here's what I see about their characters from the PPV:

They're faces
They slap hands on the way to the ring
They used to be tag champions
Saxton is annoyed at Saboteur signing a mask for no apparent reason

That's it. That's what I got out of the PPV. How interesting or intriguing does that sound?

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you in the slightest. I find it really interesting that you're saying this, in fact. I think there are a LOT of things that Creative needs to take from this review and this is something in particular that should be focused on. This is purely on Creative, and maybe it's something they didn't think about that they definitely need to starting now.

Again, it's the disconnect between Creative writing a "wrestling match" and a match with the actual characters that are wrestling.

 

[klunderbunker]

Maybe something like a tale of the tape at the beginning of the match would be helpful.

Show a photo of the wrestlers with some basic info about them. Name, Height, weight, finisher and a fun fact (either logical (info about the character) or insane (info about their favourite breakfast cereal)).

This brings up something else I wanted to mention: saying what a finisher is would help a lot. I had to keep going to the roster page and finding out what the move was. Something like "Cougar hits the Final Act! After that devastating C4 from the top, how can Constantine possibly kick out?" Or "Holmes hits the Imperial Impaler piledriver for the pin."

Also, mix up the way you refer to people. Seeing the same names over and over and over again gets tiring. Let's take Drake Callahan for instance. Here are the following names from the PPV match that make him easy to identify and can be used to freshen things up:

Drake
Callahan
The man without a mask
The former world champion
The villain/heel/evil one

What sounds better? A mixture of those names or:

Drake
Drake
Drake
Drake
Drake

Also try to avoid using the word "he". It can get REALLY complicated really fast. For instance (made up example): "Callahan charges at him with a clothesline but misses. He comes back with a dropkick to put him down."

Who hit that dropkick? Try to use at least one name per sentence to keep it clear who is who or things can get really confusing in a hurry.

 

[Bernkastel]

This brings up something else I wanted to mention: saying what a finisher is would help a lot. I had to keep going to the roster page and finding out what the move was. Something like "Cougar hits the Final Act! After that devastating C4 from the top, how can Constantine possibly kick out?" Or "Holmes hits the Imperial Impaler piledriver for the pin."

Also, mix up the way you refer to people. Seeing the same names over and over and over again gets tiring. Let's take Drake Callahan for instance. Here are the following names from the PPV match that make him easy to identify and can be used to freshen things up:

Drake
Callahan
The man without a mask
The former world champion
The villain/heel/evil one

What sounds better? A mixture of those names or:

Drake
Drake
Drake
Drake
Drake

Also try to avoid using the word "he". It can get REALLY complicated really fast. For instance (made up example): "Callahan charges at him with a clothesline but misses. He comes back with a dropkick to put him down."

Who hit that dropkick? Try to use at least one name per sentence to keep it clear who is who or things can get really confusing in a hurry.

I would always use the former when I'd write my matches. I'd say "the smaller man" or "the stronger man" or "the alien" or "the luchador." But I disagree with the "he" part if it's used in quickly succession in the same sequence rather than drawn out, and this is especially easy if the match is one on one - multiple man matches can get crazy - but I had no problem following your example.

 

[Gelgarin]

This brings up something else I wanted to mention: saying what a finisher is would help a lot. I had to keep going to the roster page and finding out what the move was. Something like "Cougar hits the Final Act! After that devastating C4 from the top, how can Constantine possibly kick out?" Or "Holmes hits the Imperial Impaler piledriver for the pin."

Also, mix up the way you refer to people. Seeing the same names over and over and over again gets tiring. Let's take Drake Callahan for instance. Here are the following names from the PPV match that make him easy to identify and can be used to freshen things up:

Drake
Callahan
The man without a mask
The former world champion
The villain/heel/evil one

What sounds better? A mixture of those names or:

Drake
Drake
Drake
Drake
Drake

Also try to avoid using the word "he". It can get REALLY complicated really fast. For instance (made up example): "Callahan charges at him with a clothesline but misses. He comes back with a dropkick to put him down."

Who hit that dropkick? Try to use at least one name per sentence to keep it clear who is who or things can get really confusing in a hurry.

Somebody is going to take this far too seriously and write worse as a result of it. Variation is nice and all, but in the majority of cases you should be using to simplest moniker possible to convey meaning.

Also; telling people to avoid pronouns is just about the worst writing advice ever bestowed. A better solution would be to improve the grammar and/or writing so that pronouns are always used correctly.

 

[klunderbunker]

Also; telling people to avoid pronouns is just about the worst writing advice ever bestowed. A better solution would be to improve the grammar and/or writing so that pronouns are always used correctly.

Clarification: try not to use them too much.

 

[JGlass]

That could work.

It DID work. It was the best feud in the history of the fed. Ask anyone. By anyone I mean me, Doc, or anyone that agrees with us.

I didn't really get any feel that Saxton and Saboteur had anything unique about them. They sounded like any two guys you might see on any given indy show. I didn't get the idea that one was crazy or why they were popular. They felt like two average guys who were a team. Maybe reading some of their promos would help but the match made them seem very basic.

Well then you don't know jack, Jack! They're the baddest duo of good brothas this side of the Wyoming.

Saboteur come from the mean streets of who the heck knows (he certainly doesn't) as he travels the world with his kidnapped roommate best friend, Garrett, and the voice in his head that serves as a narrator (me!). He's somewhere between the ages of 9 and 90, and he enjoys old television sitcoms and breakfast cereal.

Action Saxton is the groovy brotha that has starred in over 20 action packed films, netting him hundreds of millions in box office draws and no less than seven Blackademy Awards. A student of Master Chop Onion's School of Kung Fu, Action Saxton has fought off upwards of 10,000 ninjas and holds multiple records in one handed pushups, punching fishes in the face, and throwing suckas through walls.

Honestly, you thought Doc and I would be anything less than spectacular?

Here's what I see about their characters from the PPV:

They're faces
They slap hands on the way to the ring
They used to be tag champions
Saxton is annoyed at Saboteur signing a mask for no apparent reason

That's it. That's what I got out of the PPV. How interesting or intriguing does that sound?

For what it's worth, nobody has ever been able to capture the Saxton/Saboteur dynamic like Doc and I, but that's to be expected. A few people have come close (Yazloz and Kermit have come the closest, Showtime, and surprisingly enough, Dynamite put in decent efforts). I think if you read a few of our RPs you'd find that we have a certain charm.

 

[klunderbunker]

Honestly, you thought Doc and I would be anything less than spectacular?

Given that I've known who you are for about 8 seconds now, yeah sure....I think.

 

[JGlass]

Given that I've known who you are for about 8 seconds now, yeah sure....I think.

I forget to take into account that it's not always clear who writes for who.

If you still don't know, mind if we do a little quiz where you guess who writes for which characters? Here's a short list...

Saxton
Saboteur
Califa Dragon
S.H.I.T
Krypto
Constantine
Drake Callahan
"Showtime" David Cougar
Sam Smith
Rush
Matt Tastic
The Beard
Grand Mystique
Celeste Crimson

 

[klunderbunker]

I forget to take into account that it's not always clear who writes for who.

If you still don't know, mind if we do a little quiz where you guess who writes for which characters? Here's a short list...

Saxton
Saboteur
Califa Dragon
S.H.I.T
Krypto
Constantine
Drake Callahan
"Showtime" David Cougar
Sam Smith
Rush
Matt Tastic
The Beard
Grand Mystique
Celeste Crimson

Doc
You
Burna
Miko
Dynamite
Dave
Harthan
Showtime
Crock
MTM
Killjoy
Bearded One
Phoenix
Ech

 

[JGlass]

Doc
You
Burna
Miko
Dynamite
Dave,
Harthan
Showtime
Crock
MTM
Killjoy
Bearded One
Phoenix
Ech

So close, the only ones you missed were The Beard (Theo) and Grand Mystique (Numbers).

 

[klunderbunker]

Dang it I should have paid better attention when I was reading the roster page.

I knew about half of them off the top of my head.