WWF vs WWE: Shawn Michaels

[Ruthless-RKO]

Okay, it was requested, so I thought why not...i've gotta say this one is really tough!!!

"The The Heartbreak Kid (HBK)", "The Showstopper", "The Headliner", "The Main Event", "The Icon", "Mr. WrestleMania"....What else name has he been given...

Shawn Michaels was in WWF from 1988-1998(retired)...
returned to WWE in 2002-2010...

Looking at matches, feuds, impact created etc. what would you say: Shawn Michaels in WWF or WWE??

Feuds
WWF: The Grapplers, Buddy Rose, Doug Somers, RockNRoll RPMs, RockNRoll Express, The Brain Busters, The Orient Express,
The Rougeau Brothers, The Hart Foundation, British Bulldog, Rick Martel, Marty Jannetty, Crush, Diesel, Razor Ramon, Jeff Jarrett, Dean Douglas, Steve Austin, Bret Hart, Owen Hart, Mankind, The Undertaker...

WWE: The Undertaker, Chris Jericho, Triple H, Randy Orton, Chris Benoit, Kane, Edge, Christian, Kurt Angle, Muhammad Hassan, Daivari, Chris Masters, Vince McMahon, Shane McMahon, The Spirit Squad, Rated RKO, John Cena, Randy Orton, Mr. Kennedy, Ric Flair, Batista, Chris Jericho, John Bradshaw Layfield, Rhodes & DiBiase, Jerishow...

Championships & Accomplishments
WWF
3-time WWF Championship
1-time WWF European Championship
3-time WWF Intercontinental Championship
3-time WWF/E World Tag Team Championship w/ Diesel (2), Steve Austin (1)
Royal Rumble Winner (1995, 1996)
Fourth Triple Crown Champion
First Grand Slam Champion

WWE
1-time World Heavyweight Championship
2-time WWF/E World Tag Team Championship w/ John Cena (1), and Triple H (1)
1-time WWE Tag Team Championship w/ Triple H (1)

Great Matches - Has to be done
WWF
(1992) vs. Bret Hart at Survivor Series
(1993) vs. Tatanka at WrestleMania IX
(1993) vs. Marty Jannetty on Monday Night Raw on May 17
(1994) vs. Razor Ramon in a Ladder match at WrestleMania X
(1995) vs. Diesel at WrestleMania XI
(1995) vs. Razor Ramon in a Ladder match at SummerSlam
(1996) vs. Bret Hart in an Iron Man match at WrestleMania XII
(1996) vs. Vader at SummerSlam
(1997) vs. The Undertaker in first ever Hell in a Cell match at Badd Blood

WWE
(2002) vs. Triple H in an Unsanctioned Street Fight match at SummerSlam
(2003) vs. Chris Jericho at WrestleMania XIX
(2004) vs. Chris Benoit and Triple H at WrestleMania XX
(2005) vs. Kurt Angle at WrestleMania 21
(2006) vs. Vince McMahon in a No Holds Barred match at WrestleMania 22
(2007) vs. John Cena on Raw on April 23
(2008) vs. Ric Flair at WrestleMania XXIV
(2008) vs. Chris Jericho in a Ladder match at No Mercy
(2009) vs. The Undertaker at WrestleMania XXV
(2010) vs. The Undertaker at WrestleMania XXVI - Final Match
I think i've covered them all..

Okay...well the question, Shawn Michaels in WWF or WWE??

I'm going to have to pick...after a long hard thought...WWE, he came back a better wrestler and a better person...not taking away any of his matches from the 90's, hell they were all great, but I feel in the 00's, he was much better...Every WrestleMania he stole the show!! Am I right? Titles never mattered when it came to HBK, maybe in 90's, but they didn't matter when he returned to the WWE..1 World title which was in 2002, he didn't need a title around his waist to show everyone what he could do...he added on to his legacy in a huge way...So my pick is WWE...

What would you say??

Kind Note: Please don't argue about which matches should be on the lists and which shouldn't, also keep on topic...thank-you..

 

[Reddannihilation]

WWF, nothing he did in the E compares to his feuds/matches with Austin, Bret, Diesel, Razor, Vader etc. Both categories are solid and his feuds with Jericho are big stand outs, but nothing he did in the E compares to his days in the F.

 

[RazorSharp]

Thats easy the '90's Shawn Michaels was the Heart Break Kid. When Shawn Michaels returned he was just Shawn michaels. In the 90's he had alot of memorable matches like the original hell in a cell and the iron man match. I'm not saying that he was bad in his second run. I'm just saying his 1st run was better

 

[Judah's Lion]

super tough call. he was awesome in both.

WWF:
Barbershop with Jannetty was amazing. the following feud and matches with Jannetty were also very solid.
ladder matches with Razor Ramon were epic and truly set the bar for every ladder match that followed, and yes, this includes the amazing tag ladder match between E&C and the Hardy Boyz. great story telling here.
Bret Hart had some pretty epic moments, including the Iron Man Match and the Montreal Screw Job. this is a big story in the entire wrestling world.
Undertaker. enough said. this guy gives everyone their best feuds. of course, the same could be said of HBK. so their matches together should be great, right? they were. both the Hell in a Cell and the Casket matches were incredible.
and of course, the forming of DX and the match with Austin. Mike Tyson as the guest enforcer. quite possibly the start of the real Attitude era was this.

WWE:
in the 00's, you've got a new HBK. quite honestly, this is my pick.
his return to fight Triple H was amazing. first of all, this provided one of the best heel turns in a while when Triple H gave the Pedigree to HBK after a teased reformation of DX. then the street fight was awesome. then the first ever Elimination Chamber match with HBK winning the title. then the 3 Stages of Hell match to finish it off. it was totally amazing.
the following feud with Y2J was also great. great technical wrestling and very believable feud.
his matches and feuds with Angle, McMahon and Flair were all well booked. Angle/HBK was one of the few true dream matches there have ever been and it did not disappoint. with McMahon and the reunion of DX, though not a clinic or a classic technical bout, was still very well told and super hilarious.
Flair was very emotional and i thought that they put on a good match at Mania.
Rated RKO against DX was pretty bloody and brutal. i really enjoyed that story. thought it could have gone on longer and i'm sure it would have had Triple H not been injured. but still, this was awesome by both sides.
even the story telling with Cena was very good and their one-hour match (was it in London?) was very good on Raw. which brings me to the point that HBK has had literal Match of the Year winners with people that are not known for incredible wrestling skill. that just shows you how good he is. and he won Match of the Year too many years in a row, both in the 90's and in the 00's, so it is really close.

but what settled it for me was the final feuds with Y2J and Taker. these are very arguably some of HBK's best matches of all time.
his feuds with Triple H have been awesome and bloody (Street Fight, Elimination Chamber, 3 Stages of Hell, Last Man Standing, Hell in a Cell, etc) and same goes for Rated RKO and McMahon.
but the feud with Jericho and the throwing thru the Jeri-Tron was amazing. this was another great heel turn done in the WWE during HBK's return, and both revolved around HBK getting blindsided by a very over face at the time.
and the two back-to-back classics that were Mania 25 & 26 with the Taker. this was amazing and the send-off was well earned.

great topic! HBK, the return. a better wrestler, a better story teller, better matches and feuds, and all-in-all, a better man. you could tell too. he looked much happier.

 

[cena4eva]

No doubt WWE era. He came back better, having awesome feuds. Back in WWF he was still developing and in the E he truly became a legend showing that he did not need a belt to prove him great. The E made him into the legend.

 

[Marks "R" Us]

I would have to give it to his WWE tenure, Most of Shawn's most talked about matches from his WWF days were gimmick matches (ladder, iron man, hell in a cell) and all great matches dont get me wrong. Since his comeback though the majority of his best matches have been straight one on one. I think it showed how much he has improved as a story teller in the ring after his absense. When i watch Shawn vs Taker HIC I am usually sucked in by how brutal the match is, but when i watch their Mania 25 match I am on the edge of my seat everytime, like part of me still believes Shawn could pull out the win even tho the match is over a year old.

 

[Ferbian]

Shawn Michaels in the 90's accomplished a lot more, he had perhaps the better matches in the 90's, and he really became a Hall of Famer in the 90's.

Shawn Michaels run in the 00's were great don't you doubt that, but seeing as he wasn't really a champion during that time, he spend the most times just putting on great matches and building talent, much like a title-less version of Chris Jericho, Shawn didn't need the run in the 00's because he was already an obvious Hall of Fame wrestler, even if I consider the fact that Shawn's run in 00 placed him among the greatest of the business, and perhaps a legend.

Shawn Michaels in the 90's.

 

[SickJames]

Let me say I get how hard this is and thought about this many times myself.

I have come to the conclusion that the fairest thing I can say is HBK had greater matches when he returned (MORE I mean). He had plenty in the first run, but I was there for Taker/HBK and it did surpass the Iron Man Match and was ranked the 2nd greatest match in that decade. Taker/HBK II was great as well and I feel Shawn had a way more greater list of WrestleMania bouts since he returned and at other PPVs too showing us he's still got it

Shawn built himself in his first run however and the spotlight was more on him as after coming back, about 2 years later or 3 he kinda took a backseat to guys like Hunter & Cena imo though to me he was always bigger. I just feel he made himself in his first run and after his xomeback which was tremendous he had greater matches than ever in his career, not taking anything away from the extremely great bouts in his first run. I just feel he had more impressive stuff done in his 2nd run.

 

[Money Inc.]

I'm going to choose WWE simply because he changed as a man.

If it wasn't for his own fault, a lot of his feuds in the WWF would of been more over than they were. He tried to derail Vader's push and it just made their feud look awful.

I'll give props to Shawn for getting off the pain medication (just going by reports, not accusing) and becoming a better man in and outside the ring.

I also think that first feud with HHH was brilliant!

 

[tripolie atche]

wow this is a tough one

in the WWF he obviously had more success winning the IC & WWF Title numerous times, competed in the first Ladder, Iron Man, & HIAC matches, and also formed DX with HHH which helped start the Monday Night Wars go WWFs way (although he wasnt with the company when WWF RAW started to win the ratings battle for good which eventually led them to winning the Monday Night Wars), but also he was a headache backstage, was cocky & arrogant, & wasnt liked by several of the other superstars because he was either holding them back and/or wouldnt put them over

in the WWE he came back a changed man (born-again christian) & was putting several of the young guys & talent that were about to head into the Main Event over, & in my opinion had his best matches during his 2nd run with the company (HHH-HBK at Summerslam & Bad Blood, HBK-Jericho at WM 19, HBK-Angle at WM 21, Taker-Shawn at WM 25 to name a few) but success wise he didnt do much as he only held the World title once (the reign lasted a month) during his 2nd run

so if i had to choose id say WWE although i did miss the cocky & arrogant Shawn when DX first reformed in 06 lol but its ok

 

[Cmac3311]

Easily WWE...
His WM mania matches during the E era were just head and shoulders above his "vintage" Wrestlemania's, the Undertaker WM matches, the Triple threats with Benoit & HHH, the list could go on HBK post 2002 is truly one of the best comebacks in wrestling history.

 

[Validus]

Well Shawn Michaels was "The Heartbreak Kid" in the 90's , but in WWE , he was just Shawn . I think somebody above said that ?

This is tough because HBK had a better character and better feuds in the 90's , but in the 00's he put on great matches which made them very memorable .

I would have to choose the 90's HBK , because he still had good matches like Hell in the Cell , Ladder Match and Iron Man match . Plus , his character was better and more Heart Break Kid - ish . I thought he was funnier then too .

 

[dionlyone18]

Oh man toughie...I actaully voted WWF but im changing it to WWE

Why?

If you watched him in the 90's he was at the top of his game and looked like he couldnt be stopped.All the strutting th flashy dancing the cool wrestling gear all the titles and the love by every women...i think he was one of the first "heart throb" besides Rick Rude....but look closely at his face in the ring..his interviews and in general..he looked so mad and hurt and just looked broken..Yeah he had all the woman and probably slept with every girl in Texas but when they werent there he had that big house and it was empty no one to share it with..when he was on the road he was around everyone and loved by the fans and hated by most the boys backstage because of his antics...he was great and gave some of his best matches but i perfer the WWE version

because

WHen he returned he looked refreshed.. he was still in shape his first match back gave us a classic with Trips and then Mania with Y2J he looked happy and for once in his life he was at peace with himself...yeah he wasnt strutting and doing the things he did in the 90s but he had a full house with kids a lovely wife and he was respected and everyone in the back loved him. Then we get to his awsome matches..it seemed like he was making memorable moments after memorable moment and he was just at his best IMO he didnt have to come back but he did he didnt have anything to prove but he did and his fued with Jericho and Taker just culminated the greatest little big man to ever do it

 

[theHeadliner]

Michaels made himself, proved himself, tore it up, and had the more interesting character in the 1990s. When he came back he redeemed himself and made things right. He paid his dues in the 1990s, had his share of losses, and made a lot of people look good and sold his ass off as champ, when he was number one. Yes he had an attitude, but he justified it by saying he was treated like shit when he was underneath. He came back a better person, but I prefer and think the Shawn Michaels of the 1990s had more impact and more fun to watch.

 

[Huggie-Bones]

Great question and I'm glad to see this so closely divided with great points on either side.
I personally want to lean to the WWF days to see his ambition play out in an all-consuming desire to one-up every other guy on television. Shawn was always the guy that entertained me the most with his ring work and his promos. His work in the 90's was one of the most crucial elements building into the Attitude Era. He could have wrestled an inanimate object and I would have ate it up.
"Scott Hall's claim to fame was being in the ring when Shawn Michaels wrestled with a ladder." ~ Ric Flair
That being said, the damage he was doing to his body and spirit during that time makes me feel bad for loving the antics, jokes, vulgarity and pompous nature of his character. He was pilled up bad and it really showed. When he returned he was clean and as has already been pointed out, was happy. Finding Jesus saved his life and reinvigorated his career. Maybe the biggest detractor from his renewed carrer was the absence of the swearing, crotch-chopping and mooning but he loved his work again and shared that with us. His matches became less about personal ambition and more about sharing and entertaining.
Towards the end I was a little sad to see him start to look and feel older in the ring and resort to fits of Ric Flair-esque backhand chops and that is why I still lean to WWF.
Great discussion.

 

[Davi323]

I chose the E. In the 90s, when Shawn was in his physical prime, he was amazing...but then he went away. And when he came back, he was a new man. Older, wiser...better. Better because he lost the selfishness he had. Honestly, HBK finding Christ was one of the best things to ever happen to Vince McMahon. He lost an extremely talented but egotistical, self-centered wrestler, and in return got back a more complete wrestling icon. Titles aren't all that...what did Shawn do to help other wrestlers grow? How did he make the company better? In the 90s, Shawn was all about Shawn. In the 00s, he was about helping others. He jobbed, he did what needed to be done. HBK became a company man, a family man.

In the 90s, he was probably a better pure wrestler...but in the 00s he was a much better man. I respect the Shawn Michaels of the last decade a hell of a lot more for that than I ever respected him in the 90s.

 

[WWEWrestleFest]

WWF for sure.

The Rockers were one of the most memorable tag-teams in a very stacked tag-team division. And Michaels throwing Jannetty through the window was one of the greatest heel turns of all time.

As a singles wrestler, he has a lot of great feuds with Marty Jannetty, Razor Ramon, Diesel, etc. before being pushed as the face of the company. And once he was given the Heavyweight strap, he continued to have great feuds with Undertaker, Steve Austin, Bret Hart, etc.

Michaels/Bret Hart were the perfect rivals for each other. These two feuded as tag-teams with the Hart Foundation and the Rockers, they feuded when they were both starting their singles careers for the IC strap, and of course they both feuded for the World championship as well. Though it should be noted when WWF was Bret/HBK in the main events, they were getting their butts kicked by WCW in the ratings.

But Michaels did help bring in the "Attitude" era with DX and his Hell in a Cell match with Undertaker. Even though DX (and the WWF in general) became more popular after Michaels left in 1998, it was still mostly his brainchild. And bringing in Mike Tyson into the group got WWF lots of mainstream press. The first Hell in a Cell match also showcased a more "hardcore" style than what WWF was used to, and what would later become their norm in the "Attitude" era.

His comeback was surprising, especially given his years off, his years of drug abuse, and his age. But I wouldn't say it was more memorable than the first decade or so of his career. At least not to someone who's been watching him since the 80's. I'm sure to younger fans, his WWE years are more memorable.