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So you picked the Divas? That no one cares about?
Well that can be easily solved. Have promo time or segments on RAW to fill in the gaps. Have longer entertaining backstage angles to kill time instead. And during ECW/Smackdown Tapings just have intermissions and edit them out. Simple.But, the Divas make great for Eye candy, and are more or less time for the people to go and get food/merchandise/go to the potty. Every show has this time, most sports have half time. WWE has Divas. Also, it makes great for beating off when you're like 13 and are too scared to look at porn.
The Divas had a great match? Sure Melina/McCool was okay. But Mickie James Maryse was terrible. You cannot tell me that the time spent on this would not have been of better use given to another match such as the 6 pack challenge.Why? The divas just had one of the best matches on a PPV. It beat Ziggler and Mysterio, and I'm a Ziggler mark/Mysterio mark. So don't pull out that card, please.
Are you kidding me? What big stars did the WWE womens division ever have? I'll tell you. Lita and Trish Stratus. And they left years ago. There is no excuse for the dvision being the way it is.Wait? Really? They've only been rebuilding the division for two year, for no reason? The Divas are currently going through what the men were going through about 9 years ago now. All their big stars left, leaving only midcard jobbers.
Well judging from what I've been reading, not many people think it's that abhorrent to get rid of the division. And theyre lying if they say they truly enjoy watching more that 60 seconds of diva at a time.Heh, I know a lot of people who enjoy the Divas division. The divas serve their purpose as well. They're doing their job.
The division isn't getting better and better. It just isnt. One match does not make the whole division better or make it relevant.Its getting better and better as the weeks role by. They had a great match at the last PPV. Granted they could twine the two divisions together to make a much better division from the Divas, they are getting better and better.
Are you saying that there have never been any great women in valet/mangerial roles? Sensational Sherri would be turning in her grave.Theres only ever been like 1 good woman thats a mouthpiece that I can recall. The rest were eyecandy and a half. Right now, they mean something, more than just women in a bakini.
Negative. I just watched ECW. Zack Ryder is the man.Funny, I don't think you've even watched the WWE in well over 6 months now, have you?
I implore you to read the rest of the posts. Im not the only one that think so.Okay? Thats your own opinion. Don't remove the entire division because of it. Thats just ******ed.
Trish Vs. Lita was never as big as Rock Vs Austin. Don't kid yourself.Liar. Womens wrestling can be as big as mens wrestling. Just look at Trish vs Lita back in the day.
Superstars pulls in a 0.9 rating as it is and only shows mid and lower card talent so why not just place the divas on their i doubt the ratings will decline at all
Just because it is discriminating doesn't make it any less hot.Why is it discrimination, I thought having Candace Michelle pretend to orgasm to a lesbian was discrimination or Divas being seen as a bit of T and A as discrimination or even Playboy playmates being pushed into the title picture as discrimination.
Exactly. No one cares. So why have two whole divisions over two shows devoted to them?
Well that can be easily solved. Have promo time or segments on RAW to fill in the gaps. Have longer entertaining backstage angles to kill time instead. And during ECW/Smackdown Tapings just have intermissions and edit them out. Simple.
ALso, if you're beating off to the WWE divas, be forewarned, you never know when a shot of Michael Cole will enter the screen.
The Divas had a great match? Sure Melina/McCool was okay. But Mickie James Maryse was terrible. You cannot tell me that the time spent on this would not have been of better use given to another match such as the 6 pack challenge.
Are you kidding me? What big stars did the WWE womens division ever have? I'll tell you. Lita and Trish Stratus. And they left years ago. There is no excuse for the dvision being the way it is.
Well judging from what I've been reading, not many people think it's that abhorrent to get rid of the division. And theyre lying if they say they truly enjoy watching more that 60 seconds of diva at a time.
The division isn't getting better and better. It just isnt. One match does not make the whole division better or make it relevant.
Are you saying that there have never been any great women in valet/mangerial roles? Sensational Sherri would be turning in her grave.
Negative. I just watched ECW. Zack Ryder is the man.
I implore you to read the rest of the posts. Im not the only one that think so.
Trish Vs. Lita was never as big as Rock Vs Austin. Don't kid yourself.
[115]FalKon;1254610 said:BTW, there are more people who would side with the "against side" than the "for side" in terms of the divas. So the 4% of those who dont like the divas is probably inaccurate to say the least. Its more like the 4% of us who support the divas. You need precision in discussions, not attacking rants like these. It is very easy for people to attack you.
However, I am going to take anyone who likes the diva's as an ally in this debate due to the low numbers. Simply put, interest would rise if we used the less talented divas as valets/managers/showcasing/interviewing/etc whilst those who can perform or gaining interest with the fans stay as a more wrestling role. We need one combined division again & one title for this to be properly achieved, which wont happen with the brand extension.
I like the divas division. the problem is there can only be on fued at a time with the divas picking sides. with only one match given to the divas at any one show, you can't give many divas a chance to build up a character or even camera time. beth pheonix was the biggest diva going when she had the title. now she's almost jobber status cause there can only be one major diva heel at a time and that belongs to maryse.
it's a tough situation for the divas because with such little TV time, you can only get over a few divas at a time.
whatever happened in female managers? a good way to get over some of these divas would be teaming them up with other wrestlers like natayla with hart dynasty. she still can wrestle but she comes out with them all the time. just an idea to help get more divas over that aren't getting wrestling time.
Exactly. No one cares. So why have two whole divisions over two shows devoted to them?
Well that can be easily solved. Have promo time or segments on RAW to fill in the gaps. Have longer entertaining backstage angles to kill time instead. And during ECW/Smackdown Tapings just have intermissions and edit them out. Simple.
ALso, if you're beating off to the WWE divas, be forewarned, you never know when a shot of Michael Cole will enter the screen.
The Divas had a great match? Sure Melina/McCool was okay. But Mickie James Maryse was terrible. You cannot tell me that the time spent on this would not have been of better use given to another match such as the 6 pack challenge.
Are you kidding me? What big stars did the WWE womens division ever have? I'll tell you. Lita and Trish Stratus. And they left years ago. There is no excuse for the dvision being the way it is.
Well judging from what I've been reading, not many people think it's that abhorrent to get rid of the division. And theyre lying if they say they truly enjoy watching more that 60 seconds of diva at a time.
The division isn't getting better and better. It just isnt. One match does not make the whole division better or make it relevant.
Are you saying that there have never been any great women in valet/mangerial roles? Sensational Sherri would be turning in her grave.
Trish Vs. Lita was never as big as Rock Vs Austin. Don't kid yourself.
Sorry Deej, there is no way you would pull anything along those sorts of ratings at all if it were an all divas show. Even if it was filled with RAW Recaps. If anything, it would only boost other show ratings because the divas are no longer on them.
Just because it is discriminating doesn't make it any less hot.
Oh god no. I would much rather watch Divas "wrestling" than to listen to a bunch of feminists complaining that it was removed.
I was saying I don't understand why you're posting it here at WrestleZone. None of the regulars, that I know of, really care about the Divas. Theres hardly ever any threads about them, and if there is they hardly get any replies. You should take it to another forum, with bigger diva fans, because we here at WrestleZone, are big Diva fans.
Well I don't have any qualifications so obviously I'm not on the writing team. But I like that fact that you said "The divas are doing their job". Well thats great, Melina does a great job of putting on mediocre matches that people can't pretend to care about. The question is, are these jobs essential to the WWE product. Hell no.Wrong. Its hard enough for some of the wrestlers to make a good promo, with the time they have. Those who don't get mic time, usually suck on the mic. The Divas do their job, and have okay wrestling matches, showing new moves each and every match. You're looking at a weakend divas division, and are deciding to just cut them off. Theres a reason you're not in creative.
Maryse and James was okay, yes. Melina/McCool was great, to say the least. It was better than Rey vs Ziggler, thats for sure
The fact that they can't find a good enough diva to lead the division should be tell tale sign enough that the division is failing. they don't have anyone up to the scratch of Stratus. What happened to Mickie James? Or Beth Phoenix. And even if Stratus had stayed around, there still would be no interest in the Womens division. No one cares, as much as you want them too. The most you could hope for is a sexy wrestling diva picture thread. Which is essentially what your Women of Wrestling thread should become.Years ago? They left two year ago, if that? You make it sound like they left 15 years ago. Once again, the Divas division is still being rebuilt, I'm sure its hard to find many women that just decide "HEY! I'm going to join wrestling today!" Those that do, are batshit ugly, and don't meet the WWE standards.
Why should you have to direct me? surely if I take a sampling of JUST ONE wrestling forum I should be able to see the general feeling on divas and shouldnt have to go to a goddamn diva fansite to get some praise for them. I tell you what, I think the Holocaust was horrible, but I bet I could direct you to 15 pure nazi forums where they love it. Its all a matter of perspective, and a random forum should showcase whther people care for divas or not.Once again, you're at a forum where the divas aren't so praised. I can direct you to about 15 pure diva forums. Each with just as many decently respected members as we have. The Divas have a good source of fans.
These are all moot points. It doesnt matter if the division is getting better or not. The potential of the division is very high, and male audiences are always going to have a hard time wanting to watch a womens division. Its a sad truth, so why not face it and stop pretending to like womens wrestling?Yes it is. Melina and McCool proves the division is getting better. Maryse is learning new moves day in and day out, to get 10x better. Mickie may not be great, but shes really got that whole "Trish" charisma going for her. the croud eats her up too.
Fine. Diss Sherri. What about Miss Elizabeth? What about Stephanie McMahon? Female Valets and managers will always have their place at ringside, regardless of whether they are just there to add sex appeal or not. It's a moot point.Sherri was okay. The most realavence she ever had was to add sex appeal for Shawn Michaels. Which Shawn Michaels had more sex appeal than Sherri dreamed about.
NoFate007. Slyfox 696. Two greatly respected posters.I implore you to look at who said it. Find me a respectable poster that agrees with you. Then talk. People who watch the show through and through, and are respectable posters around here, may not like the Divas, but they know they do their job well. They're meeting the needs the WWE has for them, and the point of the show.
Judging by the way you first started posting I highly doubted you had any respect in the first place.Fuck man, I tottally said this in my post. Way to put words in my mouth. That was just ludacrous of you. I've just lost any respect for your posting.
Thats when people are told to review their favourite feuds or matches of all time, or even great feuds or matches, it never gets one mention. You're severely overrating it. Stop be so silly and come to grips with the fact that although it may have been one of the greatest womens feud ever, that means hardly anything. It's a big fish in a small pond.Trish vs Lita was bigger than any midcard feud going at the time of their feud. Granted it was no where near as big as Rock vs Austin, it certainly was bigger than the whole Hardy/E&C storyline that was going at the time.
Besides you and Degeneration Deej I haven't really seen a proper argument for the inclusion of the divas. Not one good argument other than "It helps break up the sausage fest" and that it is politically correct to have them. Im not saying removing women is a good idea. Just their matches. There is no way you can justify knocking me for having an opinion, or red repping me for being a noob. Which you did.
Well I don't have any qualifications so obviously I'm not on the writing team. But I like that fact that you said "The divas are doing their job". Well thats great, Melina does a great job of putting on mediocre matches that people can't pretend to care about. The question is, are these jobs essential to the WWE product. Hell no.
Thats personal opinion there. I thought Ziggler vs Mastrio was a great match, and much better than McCool/Melina
The fact that they can't find a good enough diva to lead the division should be tell tale sign enough that the division is failing. they don't have anyone up to the scratch of Stratus.
What happened to Mickie James?
Or Beth Phoenix.
Why should you have to direct me? surely if I take a sampling of JUST ONE wrestling forum I should be able to see the general feeling on divas and shouldnt have to go to a goddamn diva fansite to get some praise for them.
I tell you what, I think the Holocaust was horrible, but I bet I could direct you to 15 pure nazi forums where they love it. Its all a matter of perspective, and a random forum should showcase whther people care for divas or not.
These are all moot points. It doesnt matter if the division is getting better or not. The potential of the division is very high, and male audiences are always going to have a hard time wanting to watch a womens division. Its a sad truth, so why not face it and stop pretending to like womens wrestling?
Fine. Diss Sherri. What about Miss Elizabeth? What about Stephanie McMahon? Female Valets and managers will always have their place at ringside, regardless of whether they are just there to add sex appeal or not. It's a moot point.
Judging by the way you first started posting I highly doubted you had any respect in the first place.
Thats when people are told to review their favourite feuds or matches of all time, or even great feuds or matches, it never gets one mention. You're severely overrating it. Stop be so silly and come to grips with the fact that although it may have been one of the greatest womens feud ever, that means hardly anything. It's a big fish in a small pond.
How about, because ladies have the potential to be good? I mean, it's not like there's never been such a thing as a good woman's wrestler. Actually a pretty common concept, when you think about it. The women who are good at what they do may not be that much in the spotlight right now, but they're there. I promise you. Go watch Gail Kim and Mickie James. I swear to you, if you can look past the fact that they have vaginas, you'll find good wrestling.
But they are taking up TV time. There are ALWAYS complaints about how some wrestler don't get enough time on TV. Not enough time to matches, not enough time to cut a promo and show their mic skills. I think cutting a divas match could give some time to this. It's not like the time would go to waste if they were cut.It's not like Vince is struggling with them under contract. I mean, what's so bad about having them? They're not doing anything to hurt the product at all.
Show me one person on this forum that tunes into RAW or Smackdown solely for womens wrestling and I'll show you a liar. Im not saying get rid of them all together. People can still see how good they look if theyre at ringside or in a backstage segment.And if they were to be gone, you can goodbye to a good portion of that 18-to-48 demographic. It's sad, but it's true... People tune in to watch these ladies, and how good they look.
Why does it weaken my stance? That I enjoyed Ziggler's match MORE than McCool's? What so bad about that?Um, you do realize those are two of the better workers in the WWE right now, right? The fact you're at least making the comparison is somewhat weakening your stance. Fact is, Mantaur, Women's wrestling can be enjoyable.
You could take Chyna or Jazz, and the argument is the same. there is more interest in watching men's wrestling than a womens match in todays market. Even when aiming toward kids, I'm pretty sure a male match would hold more interest than a womens match.You know, if you really wanted a strong argument, you should've used Jazz or Chyna. Trish is extremely overrated, because of how much she likes the business.
She'll feud with Maryse. She'll feud with Beth Pheonix. She'll feud with Gail Kim. All these things are goingto happen because they have nowhere else to go in such a poorly booked division and no one will care either way about the matches. It's a sad fact, and I wish it were more popular, and people could get really into the division itself. But you have to come to grips that it ISN'T as popular. So we're at the crossroads of continuing a mediocre, at best good division or getting rid of it to make way for a fresher newer look. A cruiserweight division would easily trump a womens division in popularity any day of the week.Yeah, what did happen to her? I mean, God, it's not like she's doing
Oh. There's that.
They have meaning. Sure I'll admit, and Beth Pheonix certainly came across as a powerful character. But the fact of the matter is that her meaning is very little. Her worth became so much more to fans when embroiled in a comedy situation with Santino. Being a dominant diva still didnt give her much attraction to a common fan, or at least I don't believe so.Now this, I'll kinda agree with, to an extent. She isn't booked too well right now. The Santino thing kind of cut her off at the legs. Still, the fact that you acknowledge they're there completely cuts off your argument. You're aware of them, and know they're working, no? And in an ideal world, you'd book them, no?
Which proves they have a meaning in the WWE.
Just to point out how skewed the logic was. I could have mentioned kittens or something, but it didnt have the impact.Yeah.... Not your best analogy to make here. The Holocaust hurt, oh, I don't know, roughly six million people. Diva's aren't hurting anyone. Sorry, thanks for playing
It was a typo obviously. The net worth of the Diva's division is next to nothing, and even at its highest level, it can only go so far. The potential is capped by prejudices and the fact that womens wrestling, although at times semi-interesting, is often a joke in the WWE. If they're never going to give it the time of day to become the mediocre division it could be, why continue it?So wait, you acknowledge that women's wrestling has potential, yet say they should get rid of it? I mean, there you go right there. It has potential. It can be good. You have effectively weakened all that you've said before. Had you said there was no potential, I'd have a more difficult time. But, well, this pretty much shuts you down here.
Just because they can wrestle does not mean that it makes an entire division worthwhile of having, and spending time on each week. Otherwise shelton Benjamin would actually be getting somewhere.I'm not sure if that was a diss on Sherri. Still, some women can manage, and some can wrestle. You've seen good wrestling women. So what's stopping you from believing they exist?
I certainly didnt cry over it. But it was such a mean gesture.Eh, don't take it so hard. I've been red repped by Milky. Nothing personal to it, I promise
I would use those diving lessons he has to invest it into a better tag team division.And the fact that pond exists means Vince is going to explore it. Period.
You see, this is a clear shift in the attitude toward the wrestling itself. When you watch a womens match, I personally, although you may have a completely different outlook, drop my standards to fit what I am about to see. I mean sure Melina vs McCool was good, but it was great for a womens match. If you look past the vaginas, you find that the wrestling isnt all that enthralling I'm afraid. The scale can work both ways.
But they are taking up TV time. There is ALWAYS complaints about how some wrestler don't get enough time on TV. Not enough time to matches, not enough time to cut a promo and show their mic skills. I think cutting a divas match could give some time to this. It's not like the time would go to waste if they were cut.
Show me one person on this forum that tunes into RAW or Smackdown solely for womens wrestling and I'll show you a liar. Im not saying get rid of them all together. People can still see how good they look if theyre at ringside or in a backstage segment.
Why does it weaken my stance? That I enjoyed Ziggler's match MORE than McCool's? What so bad about that?
You could take Chyna or Jazz, and the argument is the same. there is more interest in watching men's wrestling than a womens match in todays market. Even when aiming toward kids, I'm pretty sure a male match would hold more interest than a womens match.
She'll feud with Maryse. She'll feud with Beth Pheonix. She'll feud with Gail Kim. All these things are goingto happen because they have nowhere else to go in such a poorly booked division and no one will care either way about the matches. It's a sad fact, and I wish it were more popular, and people could get really into the division itself. But you have to come to grips that it ISN'T as popular. So we're at the crossroads of continuing a mediocre, at best good division or getting rid of it to make way for a fresher newer look. A cruiserweight division would easily trump a womens division in popularity and day of the week.
They have meaning. Sure I'll admit, and Beth Pheonix certainly came across as a powerful character. But the fact of the matter is that her meaning is very little. Her worth became so much more to fans when embroiled in a comedy situation with Santino. Being a dominant diva still didnt give her much attraction to a common fan, or at least I don't believe so.
Just to point out how skewed the logic was. I could have mentioned kittens or something, but it didnt have the impact.
It was a typo obviously. The net worth of the Diva's division is next to nothing, and even at its highest level, it can only go so far. The potential is capped by prejudices and the fact that womens wrestling, although at times semi-interesting, is often a joke in the WWE. If they're never going to give it the time of day to become the mediocre division it could be, why continue it?
Just because they can wrestle does not mean that it makes an entire division worthwhile of having, and spending time on each week. Otherwise shelton Benjamin would actually be getting somewhere.
I certainly didnt cry over it. But it was such a mean gesture
I would use those diving lessons he has to invest it into a better tag team division.
I'm not saying you have to drop your standards. Are men faster and stronger in the ring? Yeah, and that's about it. Watch a good Nattie Neidhart match. She's more technically sound than half of the wrestlers on the roster. I don't drop my standards... It's fucking wrestling. I look at a Hornswoggle match the same as a Cena match... Is it entertaining? And the vast majority of fans find women's wrestling enjoyable, more so than you. See how many people you've already had to debate? And that's a small pool of fans.
Why not a mens match? Why is that so bad? The promos leading up to the main events have always been there, the pre match interviews etc. So why not showcase that Primo and Carlito feud suring that extra 5 minutes? A Carlito's Cabana perhaps?Always complaints? Who's complaining? I think you should be more worried about the main events and the promos leading up the main events, as opposed to five minutes for a Diva's match. Therein lies your problem, brother. Women don't take up any more time than anyone else. And that time they do use, what's it going to be used for? Probably more comedy skits, and such.
I have changed the channel sporadically when womens matches come on. I mean Kelly Kelly and Mickie James vs Rosa Mendes and Alicia Fox isnt that interesting to me I'm afraid.I can show you people who's favorite wrestlers are women, and in that same vein, I'd like to see people that say they turn off the TV when women come on. Vince doesn't have to worry about that, because he knows you'll sit through it and watch it.
Yeah. It was good. Im a Ziggler mark. Have we met? Why is comparing the two a flaw just asking? If i dont have to drop my standards, shouldnt it be perfectly ok to compare any mens match to a womens match? Granted theyre getting the same length of time etc.Well, the fact you're even comparing the two is a bit of a flaw. Personally, I'd point out that the Ziggler match wasn't even close in comparison to the Diva's match. That's just me. And question, did you still watch that Diva's match?
Why? Because it's politically correct? If you can't attract a casual fan, and are just there to entice a small niche of fans, what harm will it do taking them away and putting in a mens feud? It's not like fans of the Women division will turn the tv off. Theyll just sit through it....Well, quite frankly, No shit. That's the way it's always going to be. But I'm not trying to say their matches are better. All I'm saying is that they belong there as much as men.
I'm not advocating a jump back to the Cruiserweight division. Im just using it as an example to show that it would generate far more interest than the women title. But it suffered from the same problems as the womens title, poor booking. But a casual fan will be much more interested in a Cruiserweight title match or a TV title match or a Million Dollar championsip match than a Women's title match. It's true. It's Damn true.Yeah, Vince has tried that. Twice. And each time, he found that he'd go back to the Women's division. Besides, who are you getting for that Cruiserweight Division? TBK? Oh, and consider this dismaying observation... If you're going to create that in place of Diva's, you're going to have to fill up two brands.
People clamour for the X-Division just as much as the Knockouts division. I think that people enjoy the Knockouts so much more due to the fact that WWE's division is so terrible. I can't say I enjoy Angelina Love matches, but that personal bias.Simply put, TNA has Cruiserweights, yet people clamor for their knockout Division. Which proves that women have a place in the ring.
I never disputed the talents of Beth Pheonix nor her ability to work good matches. What I do think is that for the majority of fans, this ability means nothing. Yes yes, I know, the Benjamin argument, I know, hate me for it but it's true. If you can't interest a casual fan, which seems pretty evident from dead crowds during matches, then of what use are you to than to appease the IWC?Here, we disagree. She had a dominant reign to go with that. And she doesn't even have half the charisma of Chyna. Neither here nor there. You seem to miss my point that she does work good matches. And as long as women work good matches, they prove to have a spot in the ring.
Well, besides using up that TV and PPV time, nothing. What harm does it do to have Hornswoggle in the ring? To have Layla El do a dance segment in the ring? Nothing. But that shouldn't give it any more merits.Still, you've yet to answer what harm it does to see them in the ring
Bingo! No one is going to treat it as importantly as the men's division. Ever. it'll always be second fiddle. it's encouraging the WWE to do a piss poor job at booking, and I'm sick of having to deal with it. As you said, it'll never improve, so lets use it for something better.Again, you just noted it can be interesting. Why have it? Well, because it can be interesting. Is it booked poorly? Yes, and no one's going to treat it as importantly as the men's division. But again, as long as it garners interest, why not have it.
Yes yes, Mantaur used the stereotypical Shelton argument. You use whoever you damn well please. Charlie Haas can wrestle very well. Doesn't translate to anything besides jobbing.Boobs > Racist Shelton stereotyping Asians. You should've used someone else. Shelton had a chance with TV time. And he blew it. Now, he's not working against "competition" in the Divas, yet he struggles to get on TV.
Well thats fine by me. Im green rep galore for other people.Eh, he's got no malice, though. He just likes the red rep. Again, not so much mean as he is trigger happy.
The peak of the tag team division, in which ever period you want to look at it, Hart Foundation Vs. The Rockers or E+C vs Hardy Boyz vs Dudley Boys was always more successful than the peak of the womens division.So wait, you argue that a women's division should be gone, but that a tag team division, which has been booked just as poorly, just needs to be "redone"
.... Right....
Would you say that the people debating with me are common fans? Hella no. How many casual fans actually take time to look at Nattie Neidharts wrestling resume? How many care if she's more technically sound? How many care that they can go for a piss during one of her matches vs Eve Torres. I will say though, she is a great wrestler. But I care about her abilities in the ring. I don't think half of the people in the crowd did.
Why not a mens match? Why is that so bad? The promos leading up to the main events have always been there, the pre match interviews etc. So why not showcase that Primo and Carlito feud suring that extra 5 minutes? A Carlito's Cabana perhaps?
I have changed the channel sporadically when womens matches come on. I mean Kelly Kelly and Mickie James vs Rosa Mendes and Alicia Fox isnt that interesting to me I'm afraid.
Yeah. It was good. Im a Ziggler mark. Have we met? Why is comparing the two a flaw just asking? If i dont have to drop my standards, shouldnt it be perfectly ok to compare any mens match to a womens match? Granted theyre getting the same length of time etc.
Why? Because it's politically correct? If you can't attract a casual fan, and are just there to entice a small niche of fans, what harm will it do taking them away and putting in a mens feud? It's not like fans of the Women division will turn the tv off. Theyll just sit through it....
I'm not advocating a jump back to the Cruiserweight division. Im just using it as an example to show that it would generate far more interest than the women title. But it suffered from the same problems as the womens title, poor booking. But a casual fan will be much more interested in a Cruiserweight title match or a TV title match or a Million Dollar championsip match than a Women's title match. It's true. It's Damn true.
People clamour for the X-Division just as much as the Knockouts division. I think that people enjoy the Knockouts so much more due to the fact that WWE's division is so terrible. I can't say I enjoy Angelina Love matches, but that personal bias.
I never disputed the talents of Beth Pheonix nor her ability to work good matches. What I do think is that for the majority of fans, this ability means nothing. Yes yes, I know, the Benjamin argument, I know, hate me for it but it's true. If you can't interest a casual fan, which seems pretty evident from dead crowds during matches, then of what use are you to than to appease the IWC?
Well, besides using up that TV and PPV time, nothing. What harm does it do to have Hornswoggle in the ring? To have Layla El do a dance segment in the ring? Nothing. But that shouldn't give it any more merits.
Bingo! No one is going to treat it as importantly as the men's division. Ever. it'll always be second fiddle. it's encouraging the WWE to do a piss poor job at booking, and I'm sick of having to deal with it. As you said, it'll never improve, so lets use it for something better.
Yes yes, Mantaur used the stereotypical Shelton argument. You use whoever you damn well please. Charlie Haas can wrestle very well. Doesn't translate to anything besides jobbing.
Well thats fine by me. Im green rep galore for other people.
The peak of the tag team division, in which ever period you want to look at it, Hart Foundation Vs. The Rockers or E+C vs Hardy Boyz vs Dudley Boys was always more successful than the peak of the womens division.
Damn right.
You're right, and this is sad, but it's true... You know what those casual fans enjoy?
Yes, they enjoy the aesthetics of the match. They enjoy the match because the women look good. That's what casual fans look for in their Diva's match. And damned if you can't argue that's a problem. And those common fans will appreciate that far more than they ever, ever appreciated a fucking Shelton, or a Chavo, or a TBK match.
Well great, at least Carlito feels like he's being used correctly. instead of 30 seconds of skin and then the rest of boredom.Because, and I assure you, you put that Cabana together, and I promise you, people will still use that point as the bathroom break.
And I find it more interesting that Carlito and Primo match. And the common fans? They enjoy it for... Well, another reason, quite frankly. And as long as fans enjoy that about the women, Vince is going to throw them out there.
Dude, nothing personal, but you haven't done much to set yourself apart from any other poster on here. I can't tell who you mark out for by your posts. You're getting there, but you're not nearly that big a name yet. The flaw, again, is placing those two actually within a realm of comparison. Otherwise, the fact that you admit to watching the match means you had to care more for what you were watching than you let on.
Well, some people sit through it because they like how the women look. Just the way it is. And you can choose to not accept it, but that doesn't make you right. One bit.
Another fucking title? You really want another belt? So instead of women, you want another title to dilute the show you're watching? Thanks, but no thanks. Even then, people would still use that as the bathroom break.
And Shelton fucking Benjamin does that better than Beth? Yeah... Sure...
Except that the merit is entertainment. Just like you find in a women's match.
I green rep, too. You'll get some soon
Dude, I'm sorry, but that ship has long sailed. There will never be another era like that. Better just take the Tag Team Division as is.
Just because they appreciate looking at Kelly Kelly's boobs more than Chavito's goatee, doesn't make the women's matches any less boring to them. As JMT said, 30 seconds is sufficient for it.
Well great, at least Carlito feels like he's being used correctly. instead of 30 seconds of skin and then the rest of boredom.
The "casual" fan that doesnt go to pee will get a great promo exchange.
What about the casual fan thats bored of it? Is that reason to keep it on? Because some horny people like watching Kelly Kelly? I don't think that the 5 people that wish to watch a divas match to perv are anymore important than the 500 people that are bored of the divas matches
Dude, no offense, but you took that the wrong way. I was just joking about the introduction. Im not that self centred to think Im famous.
What? Because I was watching the womens championship match means that I cared so much about it? It's not like I was turning the PPV off and refusing to watch it. I would just prefer to watch something else is all.
Thats it? Thats your justification for it? I think we can sacrifice the people that tolerate it for breasts for something more enjoyable in a wrestling product. Why not just have a dance off instead? That serves the same purpose. Why not use that big boobed girl to manage an up and coming Jack Swagger andgive him some extra heat. What if you got an extreme girl to manage Evan Bourne, give him something besides flips to be successful at.
Then don't use a belt. Have a cabaret show. Have a postive thinking seminar. The fact is that you could make many more productive segments by eliminating the match. Its time going to waste to appease a few fans. Why not extend that time to a bigger audience.
Fine use CM Punk. Use Mike Knox. Use Carlito. Your choice.
But, womens matches arent entertaining to all. Im sure you could find something else that more entertaining to all. Santino is unanimously hilarious. Use him. Have a video package highlighting the history of the next PPV. Have an interview with chris jericho where he calls you a hypocrite. Thats more entertaining.
I'm not ****ing for it. Don't do it if it aint deserved.
And there will never be a truly great womens division in WWE.I've accepted that the tag team division is over. Have you accepted that the divas will never be booked properly enough for anyone to care? Stop the matches and use them for something useful. MVP could use a manager.
Besides you and Degeneration Deej I haven't really seen a proper argument for the inclusion of the divas. Not one good argument other than "It helps break up the sausage fest" and that it is politically correct to have them. Im not saying removing women is a good idea. Just their matches. There is no way you can justify knocking me for having an opinion, or red repping me for being a noob. Which you did.
Well I don't have any qualifications so obviously I'm not on the writing team. But I like that fact that you said "The divas are doing their job". Well thats great, Melina does a great job of putting on mediocre matches that people can't pretend to care about. The question is, are these jobs essential to the WWE product. Hell no.
Thats personal opinion there. I thought Ziggler vs Mastrio was a great match, and much better than McCool/Melina
The fact that they can't find a good enough diva to lead the division should be tell tale sign enough that the division is failing. they don't have anyone up to the scratch of Stratus. What happened to Mickie James? Or Beth Phoenix. And even if Stratus had stayed around, there still would be no interest in the Womens division. No one cares, as much as you want them too. The most you could hope for is a sexy wrestling diva picture thread. Which is essentially what your Women of Wrestling thread should become.
Why should you have to direct me? surely if I take a sampling of JUST ONE wrestling forum I should be able to see the general feeling on divas and shouldnt have to go to a goddamn diva fansite to get some praise for them. I tell you what, I think the Holocaust was horrible, but I bet I could direct you to 15 pure nazi forums where they love it. Its all a matter of perspective, and a random forum should showcase whther people care for divas or not.
These are all moot points. It doesnt matter if the division is getting better or not. The potential of the division is very high, and male audiences are always going to have a hard time wanting to watch a womens division. Its a sad truth, so why not face it and stop pretending to like womens wrestling?
You see, this is a clear shift in the attitude toward the wrestling itself. When you watch a womens match, I personally, although you may have a completely different outlook, drop my standards to fit what I am about to see. I mean sure Melina vs McCool was good, but it was great for a womens match. If you look past the vaginas, you find that the wrestling isn't all that enthralling I'm afraid. The scale can work both ways.
But they are taking up TV time. There are ALWAYS complaints about how some wrestler don't get enough time on TV. Not enough time to matches, not enough time to cut a promo and show their mic skills. I think cutting a divas match could give some time to this. It's not like the time would go to waste if they were cut.
Cheerleader Melissa
[youtube]c-m2HjvPGIU[/youtube]
One of the best Womens Indie Wrestlers out there, she has wrestling ability and can basically run with anyone toe to toe, the best thing about her is that she can adapt to any style and any match type, this women should have been hired years ago but wasn't for some reason or another.
Besides you and Degeneration Deej I haven't really seen a proper argument for the inclusion of the divas. Not one good argument other than "It helps break up the sausage fest" and that it is politically correct to have them. Im not saying removing women is a good idea. Just their matches. There is no way you can justify knocking me for having an opinion, or red repping me for being a noob. Which you did.
Well I don't have any qualifications so obviously I'm not on the writing team. But I like that fact that you said "The divas are doing their job". Well thats great, Melina does a great job of putting on mediocre matches that people can't pretend to care about. The question is, are these jobs essential to the WWE product. Hell no.
Thats personal opinion there. I thought Ziggler vs Mastrio was a great match, and much better than McCool/Melina
The fact that they can't find a good enough diva to lead the division should be tell tale sign enough that the division is failing. they don't have anyone up to the scratch of Stratus. What happened to Mickie James? Or Beth Phoenix. And even if Stratus had stayed around, there still would be no interest in the Womens division. No one cares, as much as you want them too. The most you could hope for is a sexy wrestling diva picture thread. Which is essentially what your Women of Wrestling thread should become.
These are all moot points. It doesnt matter if the division is getting better or not. The potential of the division is very high, and male audiences are always going to have a hard time wanting to watch a womens division. Its a sad truth, so why not face it and stop pretending to like womens wrestling?
Women fucking suck at wrestling. They are a waste of time. I don't even watch when the divas matches are going on. I just recline my chair and take a nap. They should replace all womens matches in WWE and TNA with HLA.
Dude, you're completely not giving any leeway to the thought that perhaps people like the matches. And yes, not only is that possible, but it's true. Just because you feel one way, doesn't mean that everyone else in the building does. For every two of you going to the bathroom, there's another thirty staying to watch. Not like you see them wrestling empty arena matches, Mantaur.
I mean, granted Carlito was a bad example, but there are still superstars that could use anytime given effectively. Forget using any particulars. Do you at least agree that the time from divas matches could be used for something constructive? I mean surely thats something to be agreed on.If Carlito doesn't feel he's used correctly, that's his own damn fault. He knows what it means to get over. And like it or not, the Divas of the WWE are indeed over. Oh, and Primo, and great promo exchange? I doubt you said that with a serious face...
I realise not everyone shares my sentiments. Thats clear and I don't want to be the big know it all that comes off like he knows whats best for the people. If I have come off that way, sorry mate. But you make it sound like I'm the only person in the whole eorld that doesn't support the divas as a division. Is it so radically new to want to replace their matches with something else? I'm not saying fire every women worker on the roster because they can't get the job done.And for your one, there's about another thousand that will watch it. And what you fail to recognize is that not nearly everyone is thinking like you right now.
I don't see how you can possibly say this is the face of me saying no one cares about the divas. How is this any less critical? I care about Mike Knox. I thought he had a great showing in his tag match with Ziggler on Smackdown!I'm not about to use the comparison of a main eventer to a diva's match. However, sure, Mike and Carlito are great. Both of them come off as rather bland, and no one cares about them. Above all else, Vince listen's to his audience. He's not as much interested in the one Mantaur in the crowd... He's more interested in the general crowd reaction. And the general crowd likes Diva's matches.
I never said that I as speaking for you. But if you put yourself into a casual fan's shoes, would you feel the same way? Would you have all the same opinions if you weren't backed up with general knowledge and weren't concerned with "whats good for the business?". Thats not a rhetorical question. I'm actually wondering if you would feel the same way, because I find it hard to answer that question too.No, you deserve it. Though I feel this argument comes completely from your own ass. I feel as though now you're trying to speak for the entire WWE fan base. And I'd be more than happy to say you sure as Hell do not represent me.
I didn't ask why we have them. I know why we have divas. To entertain the fans. I mean thats pretty simple. What I asked was, and you can quote my first post, why not remove them? And if you don't believe they will always be poorly booked, when will the trend start to change within the WWE?I don't feel that they'll always be poorly booked. You've even confessed that they can be entertaining. At the end of the day, you asked why we have them.
I wonder. You say that they're entertaining to fans. Are you currently entertained by the women's product in the WWE? As in, right at this moment, looking at both the title situations, you can't tell me it couldnt be massively revamped and improved upon.The problem is, with little to no hope of a renovation coming, what are we waiting out for?The answer why is because they are entertaining to fans. If they're not entertaining to you... Then tough shit, honestly