Finally... Once again WWE Divas > TNA Knockouts

[D-Man]

First of all, I am NOT creating this thread so all of you can complain about how much "women's wrestling sucks" and how the promotions should "get rid of the divisions." Please don't make this thread go there.

Now that we got that out of the way...

vs

I truly believe that the WWE has finally taken their Divas division and completely surpassed the TNA Knockout division. I remember that there was a time when TNA prided themselves in their KO division. They knew it was superior to the WWE Divas division, even stooping as low as taking shots against the Divas on television by advertising the Knockouts by saying "No Divas here." But lately, they're really gotten a wet sock stuffed in their mouths and have been getting their asses handed to them in terms of women's division quality by the WWE.

Over the past 6 months, we've all seen a severe decline in TNA's Knockouts division. It seems as if they decided to not care about the division's progression anymore. Knockouts are leaving the company left and right, the matches are horrific, the storylines are damn near non-existent, and they're falling into the black hole that the WWE was diving into for years; As long as the girls are hot and running around in next to nothing, they expect ratings to increase. As it was proven in the WWE, this is far from the result you're going to get when going down this risky path.

The WWE, on the other hand, has made SEVERE improvements. Aside from your common match-botchers such as Kelly Kelly and Rosa Mendes, it seems as if the WWE's "fitness models" have really made an effort to improve in the ring. The charge has obviously been led by divas like Michelle McCool, Beth Phoenix, and Maryse who have set examples and raised the bar for the other Divas in the division. Their matches have all been exciting lately, and their in-ring superiority over the other Divas has really shown us who the inexperienced and uncoordinated Divas are. If you can watch a Divas match and see that one opponent is clearly better than the other, the superior Diva in the match is really doing their job well. This has clearly been happening in these matches.

The regression in the Knockouts division is obviously due to their loss of star power since late 2008. At the time, when their division was at full force and dominating the WWE's Divas division, their roster consisted of the following:

Gail Kim
Awesome Kong
Taylor Wilde
Velvet Sky
Angelina Love
Madison Rayne
Daffney
ODB
Roxxi
Sojourner Bolt
Moose
Raisha Saeed
Alissa Flash
Rhaka Khan
(And a few others that I might have missed, but you get the point...)

Let's face it... that's one hell of a stacked division, if you ask me.

The KO division's decline was so sudden that it would make your head spin. It all began with their loss of Gail Kim to the WWE in August of 2008. This was a major blow to the division, since it was molded around Kim when the KO title was created back in 2008. In stride, and up until present time, TNA wound up losing Love (temporarily, but this created a new dynamic in their #1 female faction, The Beautiful People), Roxxi, Bolt, Flash, Moose (injury), Seed, Rhan, and their biggest loss to date... Awesome Kong. Granted, they signed Tara (Victoria), Lacey Von Erich, Sarita, Hamada, and a few others, but none of them were able to pick the division up after the absolute devastation they went through within a year and a half's time. They even got so desperate as to create a Knockout's Tag Team Title division, but with their lack of roster depth, this has proven to be nothing more than an abysmic failure. The only Knockouts that are even worthy of holding these titles are a watered-down version of The Beautiful People and a thrown-together tag team in Sarita/Wilde that need to focus more on actual wrestling and less on the 17 different poses they strike during their horrific ring entrance. I've honestly never seen such a negative turn around in any division in professional wrestling before. It's almost shocking.

As the WWE stands now, they have a strong roster in the Divas division. Granted, the majority consists of more fitness models-turned wrestlers, but as I said earlier, they've really begun to improve their skills and make the division tolerable. The only major losses they've suffered lately were letting go of Gail Kim, Candice Michelle (no one really noticed) and Maria Kanellis, but this was by the WWE hands. They knew their division would continue to be stagnant and only have room for improvement, even if they got rid of these (somewhat) strong Divas, and they were right. Since Mickie James began her decline, the WWE has given plenty of thought towards the storylines on both major television shows. The Maryse/Eve feud on Raw has been quite impressive, as well as the formation of LayCool, which I believe is the best angle to hit the women's division in years. The idea of allowing BOTH McCool and Layla co-hold the titles is absolutely brilliant, especially with the heel support of Vickie Guerrero.

As of right now, the WWE's Divas division is going nowhere but up while the Knockouts division is being buried SEVERELY. They just suffered another loss in their flagship champion, Tara, and seemingly has no other direction. Only time will tell if TNA decides to take advantage of free agents such as Mickie James and Maria Kanellis (who still has a bit of star power left, mainly due to her long stay on the Celebrity Apprentice), but I am confident that it will take them a lot of time and effort to build the KO division back dominating women's pro-wrestling again.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[klunderbunker]

Let me preface this by saying neither are particularly good. WWE is just sucking less at the moment.

Yeah I definitely agree though. There is an actual structure to the Divas stuff now as opposed to the massive clusterfuck of a black hole left by the departure of Trish and Lita almost five years ago. The angles are still generic, but they're just filler. The KNockouts stuff is just painful to watch. It's ALL about looks now with the Beautiful People not having a bit of talent between the three of them. The botches are more frequent, the angles and characters are stupider and the edge is gone. Having girls like Hamada and Sarita out there putting on solid matches was fun. Watching MAdison vs. Tara is painful. LIke I said, neither is good, but WWE is less bad.

 

[RVDgurl]

Historically, I've never been a huge fan of women's wrestling. I would say this is largely due to ignorance on my part, as I just never exposed myself to quality women's wrestling. The inception of TNA's Knockout Division was the first time that I really got to see how good women's wrestling could be. TNA enlisted some of the most talented women from the independent curcuit around the country. The KO division was not centered around beauty like the Diva's of the WWE. Though most of the KO's were beautiful, they all could flat out wrestle.

D-Man, you hit the nail on the head with your post. The KO division is nothing more than a shell of it's former self and the acquisition of Hogan/Bischoff has simply made this ship sink faster. Previously the KO's were a focal point of Impact, sometimes drawing the highest rated segments and even being the main event on at least one occasion that I can remember. Now they are nothing more than half naked women's parading around to fill some TV time.

The WWE, on the other hand, has put some effort into the Diva's. There are still more waste of spaces then true talent on the Diva's roster, but at least the WWE appears to be moving in the right direction. Melina, Gail Kim and Beth Pheonix (although Melina and Pheonix are both currently out with injuries) continue to be solid and Maryse, Michelle McCool and Layla have made great strides. As previously mentioned, LayCool is one of the better developed storylines across the board. These chicks draw tremendous heat and well established characters. The same can be said for Maryse.

Comparatively, I still think TNA has the most talented roster on paper. Unfortunately for them, the WWE is making better use of the talent they have. It really is a shame.

 

[Rayne]

People keep talking about how poor the WWE Women's division is right now, but I can't remember a time where the ladies were promoted as much as they are now without having their storylines chained to that of male wrestlers. The main difference between today and the women's divisions of old is that there is no Big Star with the ladies now. There isn't a Trish Stratus, a Lita, a Chyna, or god help us even a Sable to dominate the women's portion of the program every week; and with that dominant figure, you couldn't have the broad number of wrestlers in today's WWE ladies programming.

TNA, on the other hand... wow. How fast they have fallen! One thing that made their division starkly different than the WWE's was Awesome Kong. Traditionally, the monster heel in the ladies' division is some double-chinned, warted, hideous beast, someone to scare the men in the audience into thinking she was going to rape them. Kong is, on the other hand, pretty attractive for a big lady. They could have ran with her for a very long time as the 'immovable object' in the division, but instead she got booted out in a "we'll show you what's what!" move.

Since then, the KO division has spiraled downhill. The Beautiful People don't work NEARLY as well in their current shape as they did when it was Love/Sky, because they don't have another vicious heel in the division to contrast themselves against. They did what they could with Tara, but she never really panned out on TV. ODB's title run didn't really work out for anyone. Taylor Wilde and Sarita have good matches, but don't really ignite the passions of the audience.

It's the popular thing to do now, but I have to hang this one on the new TNA management. The storylines are not compelling; they have the talent they need to make a great women's division, they just don't know what to do with it.

So yes; the WWE's women's division has surpassed TNA's, and in an amount of time I would have laughed at had you asked this question a year ago.

 

[Ruthless-RKO]

I completly agree with OP, absolutly agree 100%...I used to remember not long ago, wwe did all they could to make the diva's look strong and really make the division the best they could, whilst on TNA, they had everything, hype after hype on the knockout's storyines and rivalries, there was like 4 different KO's feuds going on at once and I used to really enjoy it, now im thinking why did they bring the KO tag titles, they don't use them much and look who has them, TBP has all the belts, it shows they hardly have interest in their division anymore...

Recently I have really enjoyed wwe womens division, it's kidna exciting, since the PG turn, I didn't think wwe could pull it off, I mean no bra nd panties matches no spicy backstage scenes, but I have to say, BRAVO to the WWE, they've pulled it off..

 

[Kenny Powers]

Yeah the Knockouts have defineitly took a turn for the worst. No matter what was going on in TNA, you could always rely on the X Division and the Knockouts. Now you really can't rely on either. With the recent releases and walkouts of Tara, Kong, Roxxi, Alyssa Flash, Traci Brooks, and others we are left with just the Beautiful People. I'm afraid the rest of the Knockouts like Hamada, Sarita, and Wilde might not be with the company much longer either.

They might as well call it the Lacey Von Erich show. I have seen The Beautiful People in person and I will agree they are gorgeous, but there is no need to have them the focal point of the division. What happened to the idea of having TBP be eye candy and not wrestle matches? I will give them credit though since Rayne, Sky, and even Lacey of all people are putting on better matches then before. They aren't good matches, but better.

WWE isn't that great either with their divas, but at least they are putting forth an effort with Maryse vs. Eve and LayCool vs. Phoenix before she was injured. There are no real feuds now that Tara has left TNA. TNA will probably just have TBP facing each other which will be terrible. TNA needs to take the wasted money they are spending on Hall and Orlando Jordan, and use it to hire some decent Knockouts.

There is a new knockout coming from Team 3D's school to TNA that is supposed to be a monster, but considering Jesse Neal and Rob Terry came from Team 3D's school I'm not getting my hopes up.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

I'm sorry- yes the KO division has been a bust but the WWe division still stinks (please stop pointing out LayCool as a plus, they're just a BP rip off- and the BP never worked through as tasteless a storyline as the 'Piggy' James debacle)- they now have three decent wrestlers; one's injured (Pheonix) and two never wrestle (Nattie & Gail). All Diva matches are a combination of piss poor cheerleader moves combined with kicks and punches that make Cena's look like they're straight outta the octagon.

The KO division was shackled as soon as Dixie sided with Kurt when JJ & Karen Angle became an item, as this lead to Scott D'Amore getting his marching orders as a friend of Jarrett. Does anyone know if they even have a dedicated writer now?

Simply put, when done right (last seen in the Flash beatdown of Hamada in an empty Impact Zone) womens wrestling can be truly excellent. At present, both TNA and WWe are ignoring the wrestlers for the models and the average fan knows they have about 10minutes (including ad break) for a toilet or refreshment break.

 

[Ferbian]

I have to admit I don't watch too much TNA, but I know of the decline in the Knockout division in TNA, and the immense improvement in the women's division in WWE (particularly Smackdown, they've been on a roll with LayCool, they really have)

I have to admit I've never really found too big of an interest for the Knockouts, even with their abilities to wrestle, the fact that they obviously put a lot of focus onto The Beautiful People, just shows that they're still ment to be eye candy, while being able to perform, and the fact of a matter is that with the decline of talent and the good female wrestlers that are starting to complain of TNA, I think eventually, we could see a complete switch around to the point where we're screaming and kicking about improving female wrestling in TNA, while we're praising WWE's immense entertainment and improvement in their female wrestling.

But not just yet, they kinda need to have a majority of talent that can work properly in the ring, I have to admit I'm not too much against the work abilities of Michelle McCool and Gail Kim, but due to the fact that Melina is out, that's about the only proper talent we're gonna be seeing for now, so I think TNA, while they're slowly getting worse with their division, they're still somewhat superior to WWE, not much, but they still are.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

One of the only reasons as to why I watched TNA was because of the KO's around the time they started to stack their division, which was recommended to me by a mate of mine. I'm glad he did back then with the talent they had, especially the idea of creating a female faction in the Beautiful People. Everything was going fine until they decided to cut their roster loose and Hogan saying that "women never draw." I guess Hogan doesn't know anything about TNA before he got there, and rightfully so because he got rejected by the WWE for a return to TV and decided to head on over to the "other" show.

Altogether, the KO's have 9 women on their rosters listed. 2 are currently injured and 3 have little appearances. A division with three titles but only 3-4 actively competing? Illogical... I really wish Scott D'Amore didn't leave and Hogan/Bischoff never came into the company. These transitions have literally made me not interested in TNA anymore as the months prior to the acquisition TNA was on the fucking ball to take over.

The Diva's will always be Diva's. RAW has the prance around type diva's and SD has the real women who can wrestle. RAW uses the women as fillers and they should do rightfully because I never expect them to put on a good show with what they have, not including Maryse. SD is the place to find good storylines and wrestlers who can tell stories, not including Rosa Mendes.

There are two things that can definitively prove that WWE > TNA in the women's division:

1) Madison Rayne is the current KO singles AND tag team champion, a woman who has been jobbing for the better part of her TNA career.

2) Simply Flawless currently play the better roles than the Beautiful People, a group which Simply Flawless seemed to be based off. The copy beating the original?

 

[Schizophrenic]

1) Madison Rayne is the current KO singles AND tag team champion, a woman who has been jobbing for the better part of her TNA career.

2) Simply Flawless currently play the better roles than the Beautiful People, a group which Simply Flawless seemed to be based off. The copy beating the original?

I agree with alot of what you said. These caught my eye. I agree with the first point as it was very out of left field but I will say that if they were gonna give the main women's title to the BP then it's good they gave it to the best of them. Alot of people don't know what Ashley Lane can really do. She's one of the better parts of Shimmer DVD's usually.

The second part made me think and I am going to have to repsectfully disagree. The Beautiful People I have yet to become bored with. They at least entertain me even if it is through dumb jokes. It's funny. Lay-Cool? All they do is yell out "Flawless" when they do something EVERY divas has done one time or another. I was bored after the "Piggy James" story. The story was dumb and they were barely berable but when they continued it just got old fast. I literally turned off the show when they came out with "Smelly Kelly" shirts cause I thought to myself "they really ARE catering to children since only children would find that either funny or mean. To me I just found it dumb.

 

[shattered dreams]

I have never quite understood the logic in statements like this: WWE Women's division is improving while TNA Knockouts division is not as good as it used to be, thus WWE Women's is now better. I see this and similar logic about tag team divisions in each company and it makes no sense. It is like WWE gets rewarded for taking their divisions to an all-time low point and then finally trying to at least keep them alive while TNA gets penalized for reaching an all-time high point in a mainstream company with the knockouts division. You cannot ignore the benchmarks when comparing relative dropoffs and improvements. As far as the in-ring product TNA still is superior to WWE when anyone who is not Lacey is working (and it is not like WWE is short on "Laceys" themselves). Calling someone fat is not a story it is an elementary school activity. Heels coholding singles titles makes about zero sense to me but I rarely advocate an audience of one mentality. I still prefer to watch a knockouts match and once they regroup they will once again be obviously better than WWE women. Also, anyone dismissing Madison while hyping up Layla amuses me more than any WWE womens match I have ever seen where they kept their clothes on.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Dear D-Man,

Thank you for the following rep comment 'This was not supposed to be a thread that hated on all women's divisions. Thanks for ignoring one of the first sentences that I posted in the thread.' Your opening statement was actually 'First of all, I am NOT creating this thread so all of you can complain about how much "women's wrestling sucks" and how the promotions should "get rid of the divisions." Please don't make this thread go there.'

I was not aware that I was hating on any division and I certainly didn't call for any promotions sidelining the women- I actually ENJOY womens wrestling and I used my statement to point out what irritates me about what could be two better womens divisions... ie the firing of an accomplished womens division writer by TNA and the lack of use of the established women wrestlers in the WWe.

Here is my response to the thread:- TNA: Killing the Knockout Division one Knockout at a time

'How do you save the womens' division? Simple, use the TNA dead hour- Xplosion (it's just a recap show anyway). Really, who watches it at the mo? At least if it was used to push the womens' div (and possibly the X or Tag ranks), Impact wouldn't feel such a cluster each week.

If they're at all committed they'll bring back Flash and Kong AND sign Mickie James (if she's available) and Nikita (the former Katie Lee Burchill).

They do this (and pay the girls fairly) and the two female wrestlers left on WWe might jump.

Given how poorly the Monday night gamble went, TNA really should be amping up anything they do better (that's reality 'do better' as opposed to the fictional 'do better' that Hogan and Flair rave about each week!'

If you want my suggestions for the improvement of WWe female talent- make use of Nattie, Gail (you've her listed as having left WWe, but I haven't seen any info on WWe.com to this effect) and Beth to elevate the blond squad to accomplished performers- Trish Stratus proved it could be done. However, having let Mickie and Katie Lee go and using Nattie and Gail as ringside rather than in-ring competitors- this doesn't appear to be the case.

Of Hamada, Sarita, Taylor Wilde, Madison Rayne, Angelina Love and Daffney; only Madison fits Diva spec and yet I'd rather watch a match between any of these workers who've paid their dues than the swimsuit collection. It isn't their fault they've no creative behind them because they have the skills.

Okay, that's me- I'll get back down of my soapbox. to paraphrase a wrestler, whos name escapes me at the mo, 'I love to fight'.

Adieu

 

[D-Man]

I have never quite understood the logic in statements like this: WWE Women's division is improving while TNA Knockouts division is not as good as it used to be, thus WWE Women's is now better.

I guess you misread my post then. I was saying that the WWE Divas division has surpassed the TNA Knockouts division because their quality and storylines are currently better... not just because TNA's quality has declined a bit. Besides, for a company that prided themselves on the KO division being "so superior" to the WWE's Divas, they really did a great job of fucking it all up and becoming damn near irrelevant.

I see this and similar logic about tag team divisions in each company and it makes no sense. It is like WWE gets rewarded for taking their divisions to an all-time low point and then finally trying to at least keep them alive while TNA gets penalized for reaching an all-time high point in a mainstream company with the knockouts division. You cannot ignore the benchmarks when comparing relative dropoffs and improvements.

I totally get your logic here and understand what you're saying. But you're misunderstanding the fact that I'm not judging the KO Division based on the correlation between it's peak and it's dropoff, compared to the WWE Divas division that was damn near irrelevant for years and are finally (somewhat) improved. What I'm trying to say is that if you put the two divisions side by side at their current state, the Divas division is absolutely crushing the KO's division in every way.

As far as the in-ring product TNA still is superior to WWE when anyone who is not Lacey is working (and it is not like WWE is short on "Laceys" themselves).

I disagree. The TNA KO matches have been nothing but botch-fests for months. I can't remember the last time they had a good match. Not even Tara, with her superior ability over the other KO's, has been able to pull off a good match.

The Divas, on the other hand, have had a string of flawless (yet simplified) matches. Even though they do not have cage matches, hardcore matches, and other gimmicks that TNA provides for their audience, their new, simplistic style is perfect for the amount of experience that the women currently have. And I'd rather give them kudos for utilizing a simplistic style and keeping it clean than knock them for trying a high-risk style and failing miserably, similar to what the TNA KO's have been doing for months.

The point is, both promotions need to stick with what they know and with what actually works. WWE has been doing that... TNA has been doing the opposite and making themselves look awful in the process. It's an embarrassment, considering how far they've fallen from grace.

Calling someone fat is not a story it is an elementary school activity.

But it's a storyline that's simple and something that many viewers can relate to, compared to TNA's complicated, confusing, and off-the-wall storylines that no one understands or gives a shit about.

Heels coholding singles titles makes about zero sense to me

But women's tag titles make more sense? At least co-holding the women's championship allows us to further understand the comradery that exists within Team LayCool. The Knockout Tag Titles are pointless props. TNA doesn't even have anyone that can be contenders with TBP as champions right now. How much sense does that make?

I still prefer to watch a knockouts match and once they regroup they will once again be obviously better than WWE women.

But I'm not talking about who the better "wrestlers" are. It's quite obvious that TNA has more experience. Too bad you'd never be able to tell, considering that we're forced to constantly view nothing but botch-fests, lately.

Also, anyone dismissing Madison while hyping up Layla amuses me more than any WWE womens match I have ever seen where they kept their clothes on.

But you're not getting it... Layla isn't the women's champ. Team LayCool is... meaning BOTH Michelle and Layla. I'm more interested in how that will play out more than Madison Rayne and her generic (at best) women's title run.

 

[maar130]

Ok, thing is that at the present time WWE's Divas are being exposed better than the Knockouts.

The WWE women's division has improved from previous months an TNA has little to no expose it's division only 3 performers getting real TV time, The BP and adding 1 or 2 KO to go against them since TBP is right now the KOs division, which is not good at all.

On the WWE, Yes the women have been exposed well lately, Eve got a big push and became champion, which si not something completely unfair since from the Diva search is the one that has improved the fatest, by no means the best of the company but as of right now the only face in Raw that can actually carry that belt without being Gail Kim (at least until Melina comes back), On the other hadn you have a good set of heels like Maryse who has improved a lot to be the Heel Diva on Raw, Jillian who is a solid worker and Alicia Fox who is miles away from being relevan again on the division.

Smackdown has had nice angles (yes the piggy James was one of those because in the end Mickie got her revenge, she only lost the title to Michelle because she has the stap infection and needed surgery) and the rivalry between Lay-cool and Phoenix (who lost the title only because she got injured) which ended abruptly.

Unfortunately for Smackdown they are in a bump now that They got rid fo James, Phoenix is out with an injury and they let go the possibility of Katie Lea coming there by also letting her go, thus far leaving them with only two faces in Kelly and Tiffany, both that need a lot of work to improve and with 3 heels on Rosa, one that is a nice punching bag in Layla and one that can wrestle in Michelle. Word is that they are seeking for a good loooking diva that can also wrestle right now (Please call Katie back).

On TNA, TBP has all the gold, which would be good, if only they had someone to fight. I mean, Sarita and Taylor are on tean, and that is it! out of 9 KOs only 2 teams and one of then has 3 members on it.

TBP has been over exposed with not giving any background to any rivalry, I mena 2 weeks before the PPV Tara all of the sudden wanted her career on the line (I mean you didn't know unless you went online and find out about her and TNA on sites like this one), what the Hell? so all fo the sudden with a 2 weeks notice you want to put all on the line? that also takes away value from the whole thing, throwing stipulations at will, at least give it a background, just like defending all titles at once, that is also bs, "just throw them all together and get it over with", that shows how much they care about it these days, ba signal from Dixie's behalf, who always price them on the web but when it counts (TV and contractually), it is just a whisper in the wind and nothing more.

That was why Kim left, because even though she was not getting into a better place at least when it came down to money issues they put a good deal together for her and exposed her in a good way at the beginning, it later felt apart but at least she is one of the most exposed divas and was not let go just because like others.

 

[shattered dreams]

I guess you misread my post then. I was saying that the WWE Divas division has surpassed the TNA Knockouts division because their quality and storylines are currently better... not just because TNA's quality has declined a bit. Besides, for a company that prided themselves on the KO division being "so superior" to the WWE's Divas, they really did a great job of fucking it all up and becoming damn near irrelevant.

I totally get your logic here and understand what you're saying. But you're misunderstanding the fact that I'm not judging the KO Division based on the correlation between it's peak and it's dropoff, compared to the WWE Divas division that was damn near irrelevant for years and are finally (somewhat) improved. What I'm trying to say is that if you put the two divisions side by side at their current state, the Divas division is absolutely crushing the KO's division in every way.

I understand that is what you said but about the only evidence you gave that the stories were better was in relation to what WWE had done in the past. That and proclaiming piggy james to be such a great idea. Both ideas seem odd to me. Then you always come back to bashing what happened to the Knockouts so to me it seems what you are saying suffers from the benchmarks and exaggeration issues I was talking about. Even within these two paragraphs you say WWE was damn near irrelevant and then only improved somewhat, while TNA was hailed as vastly superior and had their quality decline a bit. This does not seem to mesh with your conclusion that TNA knockouts are irrelevant and WWE exceeds them in everyway (something you contradict later anyway).

But I'm not talking about who the better "wrestlers" are. It's quite obvious that TNA has more experience.

Implies TNA Knockouts are still better wrestlers with an experience edge. I guess wrestling ability is not part of "everything" ??

I disagree. The TNA KO matches have been nothing but botch-fests for months. I can't remember the last time they had a good match. Not even Tara, with her superior ability over the other KO's, has been able to pull off a good match.

The Divas, on the other hand, have had a string of flawless (yet simplified) matches. Even though they do not have cage matches, hardcore matches, and other gimmicks that TNA provides for their audience, their new, simplistic style is perfect for the amount of experience that the women currently have. And I'd rather give them kudos for utilizing a simplistic style and keeping it clean than knock them for trying a high-risk style and failing miserably, similar to what the TNA KO's have been doing for months.

Flawless? You sure like to exaggerate in WWE's favor. That flawless hogsplash at wrestlemania really built the division to new heights. Knockouts matches have had a hit or miss quality to them but there have still been some pretty good ones. As for botching everything in TNA you are exaggerating once again. Maybe we have different taste in matches but wrestling simple because you cannot do otherwise is hardly something to brag about. I would rather see wrestlers push the limit and attempt to broaden their abilities opposed to be boring because they cannot do any better. Aside from Lacey months ago I do not remember anyone consistently botching in TNA anyway.

But it's a storyline that's simple and something that many viewers can relate to, compared to TNA's complicated, confusing, and off-the-wall storylines that no one understands or gives a shit about.

You sure like simplicity, does that imply something? I guess TNA has these ca-razy off the wall storylines like career vs title. WWE would never do a crazy story where a wrestler puts up their career, even in the main event at wrestlemania Does no one give a shit or do you not give a shit? Sounds like the latter to me even though maybe you have a worldview that leads you to believe that alone makes it the former.

But women's tag titles make more sense? At least co-holding the women's championship allows us to further understand the comradery that exists within Team LayCool. The Knockout Tag Titles are pointless props. TNA doesn't even have anyone that can be contenders with TBP as champions right now. How much sense does that make?

But you're not getting it... Layla isn't the women's champ. Team LayCool is... meaning BOTH Michelle and Layla. I'm more interested in how that will play out more than Madison Rayne and her generic (at best) women's title run.

And TBP holding the tag titles does nothing for establishing their comradery? Why exactly can TNA not put together a new team to make it "make sense." Doesn't having two heels agree to act interchangeably with the title also kind of make it a prop? You have your interests and I have mine just be careful claiming your interests are factual representations of everyone.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Originally Posted by D-Man
But women's tag titles make more sense? At least co-holding the women's championship allows us to further understand the comradery that exists within Team LayCool.

Originally Posted by D-Man
But you're not getting it... Layla isn't the women's champ. Team LayCool is... meaning BOTH Michelle and Layla.

How is having co-holders of a singles belt good, in any way shape or form? Put it this way, if Team RKO reformed and won the WWe Title and just decided to be co-holders - WZ would go mad with posts decrying this as the worst thing for prowrestling since David Arquett won the World Title (and rightly so). If a singles belt (and by association- a singles division) is to be taken seriously, it needs ONE champion

 

[D-Man]

I understand that is what you said but about the only evidence you gave that the stories were better was in relation to what WWE had done in the past. That and proclaiming piggy james to be such a great idea. Both ideas seem odd to me. Then you always come back to bashing what happened to the Knockouts so to me it seems what you are saying suffers from the benchmarks and exaggeration issues I was talking about. Even within these two paragraphs you say WWE was damn near irrelevant and then only improved somewhat, while TNA was hailed as vastly superior and had their quality decline a bit. This does not seem to mesh with your conclusion that TNA knockouts are irrelevant and WWE exceeds them in everyway (something you contradict later anyway).

No, the evidence I gave was comparing current storylines. What is so difficult to understand?? Team Laycool's join-women's championship angle is much greater than TBP's monopolization of women's titles with zero direction. How hard is that?

Implies TNA Knockouts are still better wrestlers with an experience edge. I guess wrestling ability is not part of "everything" ??

Nitpicking at one word in one of my posts does not make your point valid. This discussion isn't 100% focused on in-ring ability. But, if it makes you feel better to point out that it plays a part in it, then whatever toots your horn. But there's a MUCH bigger picture here that I believe I have clearly pointed out.

Flawless? You sure like to exaggerate in WWE's favor.

Not necessarily. Name a few botches that have occurred lately in WWE women's matches.

That flawless hogsplash at wrestlemania really built the division to new heights.

Oh, that's right. Because Vickie Guerrero is a masterful in-ring technician like her late husband, considering the fact that she has zero training and about 4 total career matches under her belt. You think that one spot provides justification for an entire division? I'd rather focus on the clusterfuck of matches put on by Madison Rayne and Tara... supposedly two women's ring veterans.

Knockouts matches have had a hit or miss quality to them but there have still been some pretty good ones.

I didn't say ALL of their matches were shit. Just most of them. But once again, anything to make your points seem valid, right?

I only said that I can't remember the last time they had a GOOD match. All we've seen out of the KO's were either shit matches or mediocre ones.

As for botching everything in TNA you are exaggerating once again.

"Everything"? Please quote where I used that word. I beg you. Because last I checked, that word never appeared in ONE of my posts. Your posts? About three times. My posts? Not once. Looks like YOU'RE the one who's exaggerating.

Maybe we have different taste in matches but wrestling simple because you cannot do otherwise is hardly something to brag about. I would rather see wrestlers push the limit and attempt to broaden their abilities opposed to be boring because they cannot do any better. Aside from Lacey months ago I do not remember anyone consistently botching in TNA anyway.

I respect your opinion. And I can totally see why you have it. But has TNA done this? Really? Last I checked, the most they've done with their matches lately have been hitting themselves over the heads with garbage pail lids in hardcore or cage matches. But it's the same athleticism and movesets coming out of both organizations.

The only difference is that TNA has been throwing in gimmicks in their matches. Personally, I'd rather see a smooth, clean, non-botches singles match than a clusterfuck of a Knockout's, Hardcore, Paddle on a Pole, career-ending match with thumbtacks.

You sure like simplicity, does that imply something?

Yes. That means I also like consistency... something TNA severely lacks.

I guess TNA has these ca-razy off the wall storylines like career vs title. WWE would never do a story like that, even in the main event at wrestlemania

Oh, that's right. Because Tara vs. Madison Rayne should be ranked right up there with HBK vs. Undertaker II, right? I mean, Tara was perfectly justified to put her career on the line in a feud that was only two weeks in the making. Yeah, that makes sense compared to HBK's justification in a storyline that was being built up from ONE YEAR PRIOR. Don't compare these two match types... you're just digging a bigger hole for yourself.

Does no one give a shit or do you not give a shit?

No one gives a shit about Tara putting her career on the line against Rayne after suddenly turning heel for next to no reason. And putting her one-year long TNA career on the line for the championship? Blockbuster gold right there.

And TBP holding the tag titles does nothing for establishing their comradery?

Their comradery existed way before those titles were even created. And the titles were not created FOR THEM. As compared to Team Laycool who put their egos aside and split the most prestigious women's title in the business for both of them to share. HUGE difference.

Why exactly can TNA not put together a new team to make it "make sense." Doesn't having two heels agree to act interchangeably with the title also kind of make it a prop?

The only thing I agree with when it comes to the TNA Tag Titles is the reasoning why TBP are spreading the titles between the three of them. It's like when the Spirit Squad (or even the threesome version of Demolition, for that matter) were tag champs. I get it.

But when you have a KO's division consisting of 9 total female wrestlers, (five of them being injured or leaving the company,) a heel faction being the focal point without the use of the unneeded tag titles as a prop to enhance their heel-heat, and four other women's wrestlers in limbo with no direction that could actually USE those titles for enhancement of their bland characters, you might be misusing the members of the division a tad.

You have your interests and I have mine just be careful claiming your interests are factual representations of everyone.

I don't need to be careful anything. I tell it like it is and I'll speak my opinion all I want, considering this is a discussion forum. And you shouldn't tell me what I can do with it, but I sure as hell can tell you where to shove it

 

[D-Man]

How is having co-holders of a singles belt good, in any way shape or form?

Because it's DIFFERENT. No one has ever seen it before. The audience is craving different storylines that haven't been recycled and they got one. But then again, the audience ALWAYS has something to bitch about.

Put it this way, if Team RKO reformed and won the WWe Title and just decided to be co-holders - WZ would go mad with posts decrying this as the worst thing for prowrestling since David Arquett won the World Title (and rightly so).

Some will bitch while others will enjoy it. It's really difficult for you to make that determination, don't you think? Personally, I'd LOVE that angle. I'm sure I'm not alone.

If a singles belt (and by association- a singles division) is to be taken seriously, it needs ONE champion

Why? Because that's what has been spoon-fed to you for years? Personally, I love a good plot twist. I think that storyline would be a perfect example of a plot twist that a good portion of the audience would crave. But I guess we'll never know until they try it, right?

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Sure, but that's like saying shooting yourself in the left side of the head is better than shooting yourself in the right – either way you die.

Both divisions suck. Period. There's no if's, and's or but's about it – they both suck tremendously, and like KB noted earlier, the WWE's Diva's division just so happens to suck a little less right now.

TNA had the momentum and it all fell apart over the course of a few months. The real workers in the division are gone or not on TV anymore (Roxxi, Kim, ODB, etc.), and the loss of Kong was a huge blow to the infrastructure of how the entire division was being booked at the time.

The real issue here is that a dominant female hasn't debuted since Lita & Stratus left for either company. Many saw Gail Kim as having that potential, but I never did, and I didn't see it with Kong either. They were good for the moment, but neither had that longevity that was necessary, and neither was as strong a performer in the overall sense as Lita or Stratus.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Because it's DIFFERENT. No one has ever seen it before. The audience is craving different storylines that haven't been recycled and they got one. But then again, the audience ALWAYS has something to bitch about.?

Erm... Y2J and Chyna's 4 week IC reign that is not recognised now by WWe.

Some will bitch while others will enjoy it. It's really difficult for you to make that determination, don't you think? Personally, I'd LOVE that angle. I'm sure I'm not alone.?

Who's gonna legitimately challenge them for the title- Kelly Kelly? Rosa? Is there even any heels to turn to challenge?

Why? Because that's what has been spoon-fed to you for years? Personally, I love a good plot twist. I think that storyline would be a perfect example of a plot twist that a good portion of the audience would crave. But I guess we'll never know until they try it, right?

The plot twist can be seen from miles away- they'll split, WWe does this with all their tag teams.

 

[shattered dreams]

No, the evidence I gave was comparing current storylines. What is so difficult to understand?? Team Laycool's join-women's championship angle is much greater than TBP's monopolization of women's titles with zero direction. How hard is that?

That is not "evidence," it is your opinion. Evidence is explaining why a statement is true instead of just proclaiming an opinion fact because almighty you said so. Even when you tried to explain it you basically said I like this I hate that ipso facto WWE is now better. I am sure you believe your view is correct but that does not make it fact.

Nitpicking at one word in one of my posts does not make your point valid. This discussion isn't 100% focused on in-ring ability. But, if it makes you feel better to point out that it plays a part in it, then whatever toots your horn. But there's a MUCH bigger picture here that I believe I have clearly pointed out.

"Everything"? Please quote where I used that word. I beg you. Because last I checked, that word never appeared in ONE of my posts. Your posts? About three times. My posts? Not once. Looks like YOU'RE the one who's exaggerating.

I didn't say ALL of their matches were shit. Just most of them. But once again, anything to make your points seem valid, right?

Nitpicking? It is more than one word. It is an entire concept you put forward and then directly contradicted. The idea that WWE crushed Knockouts in every way and then you turn around and say this does not include wrestling ability? Wrestling ability is one of the things I would compare side by side. Maybe I am crazy like those dangfangled TNA storylines.

What I'm trying to say is that if you put the two divisions side by side at their current state, the Divas division is absolutely crushing the KO's division in every way.

The TNA KO matches have been nothing but botch-fests for months.

The way you are using nothing here says that all or everything the Knockouts have been doing is botchfests. So if you are admitting that you are losing track of your biased statements that contradict your other slightly less biased statements then maybe we are finally in agreement. You did follow this up with your opinion about no "good" matches presented as fact for everyone by saying this all we have seen. Considering I am part of we I can easily dismiss that statement as false.

Oh, that's right. Because Vickie Guerrero is a masterful in-ring technician like her late husband, considering the fact that she has zero training and about 4 total career matches under her belt. You think that one spot provides justification for an entire division? I'd rather focus on the clusterfuck of matches put on by Madison Rayne and Tara... supposedly two women's ring veterans.

I thought in-ring work was not 100% what this is about? Or is that only when it is convenient for you to change the subject? My point about that moment is that if WWE has this good womens division with good stories and good workers then why did they build this good division to that moment on the biggest stage of them all? To me that is not likely to be the focal point at the biggest moment of the year for a thriving division. I also do not think you know what a clusterfuck is because Madison and Tara just wrestled a one on one match with no one else involved. Sure a match here and there on impact with lots of people but would that wrestlemania wwe match not be a clusterfuck as well?

Oh, that's right. Because Tara vs. Madison Rayne should be ranked right up there with HBK vs. Undertaker II, right? I mean, Tara was perfectly justified to put her career on the line in a feud that was only two weeks in the making. Yeah, that makes sense compared to HBK's justification in a storyline that was being built up from ONE YEAR PRIOR. Don't compare these two match types... you're just digging a bigger hole for yourself.

Hmm, fancy "debate skills" you have here. Take a ******ed point someone was obviously not talking about and attribute it to them. Well played? I never said anything about them being the same I simply am saying that pretending a simple story like that which has been done many times in wrestling is too complicated and crazy is blatantly false. How was that story only two weeks in the making? The infamous lockbox segment was over 6 weeks ago.

I don't need to be careful anything. I tell it like it is and I'll speak my opinion all I want, considering this is a discussion forum. And you shouldn't tell me what I can do with it, but I sure as hell can tell you where to shove it

Tell me where to shove it? With such a sophisticated vocabulary you are a shoo-in to join your heroes and form LayDCool which will go on to inspire a new generation of juvenille wit. Say your opinion all you want just quit proclaiming it fact that represents everyone.

 

[D-Man]

That is not "evidence," it is your opinion. Evidence is explaining why a statement is true instead of just proclaiming an opinion fact because almighty you said so. Even when you tried to explain it you basically said I like this I hate that ipso facto WWE is now better. I am sure you believe your view is correct but that does not make it fact.

Man... once again you're nitpicking at my words. Instead of "evidence," should I have used the word "support"? Would that have made you feel better? Here's a tissue... dry your eyes...

Nitpicking? It is more than one word. It is an entire concept you put forward and then directly contradicted. The idea that WWE crushed Knockouts in every way and then you turn around and say this does not include wrestling ability? Wrestling ability is one of the things I would compare side by side. Maybe I am crazy like those dangfangled TNA storylines.

What dream world do you live in?? I mean, please let me know when I used ANY of those statements that you keep throwing out there. I ever went so far as to quote myself in my last post because you're obviously reading what I wrote incorrectly. So yes, you ARE nitpicking. And you're nitpicking about words that I obviously did not use so stop twisting them and can you please just give your view on the subject at hand?

The way you are using nothing here says that all or everything the Knockouts have been doing is botchfests. So if you are admitting that you are losing track of your biased statements that contradict your other slightly less biased statements then maybe we are finally in agreement. You did follow this up with your opinion about no "good" matches presented as fact for everyone by saying this all we have seen. Considering I am part of we I can easily dismiss that statement as false.

I guess I need to spell THIS point out in crayon for you, as well. I never said that wrestling ability had NOTHING to do with my assessment. What is DID say was that wrestling ability didn't have EVERYTHING to do with my assessment. Hopefully, you can rise above your third grade reading level, stop being so argumentative and sensitive, and finally understand what I'm trying to say. I never discarded any of the qualities that need be judged when comparing these two divisions. But I won't zone in one only one of them to make my point clear, like you are clearly doing here. The storylines, angles, and characters are better written on the WWE's end while the in-ring ability and wrestling quality (overall) is better on the Knockouts' ends. However, as of the past few months, I can't remember TNA putting on a decent women's match without at least 3-4 botched spots in each match.

I thought in-ring work was not 100% what this is about? Or is that only when it is convenient for you to change the subject?

Hopefully, I finally cleared this up for the 90th time for you.

My point about that moment is that if WWE has this good womens division with good stories and good workers then why did they build this good division to that moment on the biggest stage of them all? To me that is not likely to be the focal point at the biggest moment of the year for a thriving division.

The funny thing is that you're focusing your argument on ONE MOVE that a NON-WRESTLER made during ONE MATCH that happened almost two months ago. Granted, it was Wrestlemania. But who gives a shit about which event it happened during? How does that make your point more valid? I could totally understand if Michelle McCool botched the spot... or Mickie James... or even Layla. But you want to focus this part of the debate on Vickie Guerrero and her in-ring botched spot just because it happened at Wrestlemania?? You'd better go back to the drawing board on your arguments here.

I also do not think you know what a clusterfuck is because Madison and Tara just wrestled a one on one match with no one else involved. Sure a match here and there on impact with lots of people but would that wrestlemania wwe match not be a clusterfuck as well?

You're right. Maybe I should define "clusterfuck", as spoken by me. I define it as a mess of a match. Now my definition of a "mess" is botched moves inside of a ring. I think you're viewing it more as a match involving more than two competitors that is out of control with no rules or something. That's not what I'm talking about here. I'm saying that Rayne vs. Tara was a HUGE disappointment and was extremely sloppy for two women that obviously have eons of experience in the ring, as compared to the WWE's Divas.

Hmm, fancy "debate skills" you have here.

Why thank you

Take a ******ed point someone was obviously not talking about and attribute it to them. Well played?

How is my point "******ed"? I think you're ******ed for actually trying to compare the Tara/Rayne retirement match to Taker/HBK. Shame on me for proving to everyone how stupid you were to try and use that comparison.

I never said anything about them being the same I simply am saying that pretending a simple story like that which has been done many times in wrestling is too complicated and crazy is blatantly false. How was that story only two weeks in the making? The infamous lockbox segment was over 6 weeks ago.

Once again, you found the diamond in the rough that disproves my point. Instead of focusing on only ONE storyline occurrence, maybe you should look at the MAJORITY of TNA's storylines and gimmick matches. Maybe if you opened your eyes wider than a squint you would actually see that TNA is trying so hard to push the envelope with their angles that they come across as being too complicated and mostly pointless. And since we're talking about the Tara retirement angle already, do you mean to tell me that it made sense that she would put her career on the line in a match that only had a two week buildup? It's quite silly, don't you think?

I'm not saying that the "Career vs. Championship" angle has never been done before or is a stupid concept. What I'm saying is that even a simplified concept such as that one is getting fucked up by TNA. It's a pretty cut and dry angle, yet TNA found a way for it to make no sense.

Say your opinion all you want just quit proclaiming it fact that represents everyone.

I'm still trying to recall where I used the word "everyone" in any post that I've written in this debate so far. Maybe you should stop putting words in my mouth and then you'd realize that my post was opinion from the beginning. Maybe it came across as being a strong opinion, but I'll take that as a compliment towards my debating skills. In the meantime, READ my posts and please only reference things I actually said and words I actually used instead of your fabricated points.

 

[LigerBomb]

How is having co-holders of a singles belt good, in any way shape or form?

If a singles belt (and by association- a singles division) is to be taken seriously, it needs ONE champion

I disagree, in fact I think it's brilliant. Since the match was 2 on 1 and Layla's team won, they in effect both won the belt and are then the co-women's champion; singular.
What's great is in addition to LayCool they also have Vickie to be a heat magnet and form a quasi stable. Best part is, as heels they can keep the gimmick going for a long time. All they have to do is petition on their behalf that clearly even if one member get's pinned they can say that they both have to be pinned as if they were 1 person; better yet, that they have to be pinned at the same time to truly be defeated, etc...
Lot's of potential for heat here and if WWE plays it right they can really build a face if in fact they end up actually having a girl go over both members of LayCool simultaneously after getting screwed out of the belt for a while.
Beyond all that as D-Man states it's new, interesting, and as of this writing has potential to be an entertaining storyline.

 

[D-Man]

Nitpicking, diamond roughing and fabricating Oh my! Nitpicking is claiming that you can dismiss all I say because you said "every way," nothing but," "no one" and used the collective "we" instead of the insanely different words everything and everyone. What I did was point out you have some huge contradictions in what you have said whether you intended to or not.

Seriously? You really going to break it down THAT much? Is it of THAT much consequence that I might have slightly contradicted myself in my posts that you had to fish out the three words that didn't agree with each other? Since this doesn't, in no way shape or form, give you any validity in your flawed reasoning behind your views that would possibly give you any type of upper hand in this debate, I'll admit that I chose a few wrong words. But was it so consequential that you needed to point it out?

What are you trying to prove? That because I used a few poorly chosen words, my entire point of view is null and void? All you're proving is how much of a nitpicking, sensitive douche you're being in this debate that you're OBVIOUSLY losing. Here's an idea... STICK TO THE SUBJECT. You've turned this debate into a battle of words instead of a battle of subject matter. So unless you have something to add to YOUR opinion that disproves the big picture of my argument, stop spamming up this thread.

So, since I was so rudely interrupted, I'll continue my belief that the TNA Knockouts division is a shadow of its former self and the WWE has taken advantage and surpassed them on ALMOST every level, in my opinion disappointed. TNA has taken a turn for the worse. They should be embarrassed that a branch of their product that used to be superior to their competition's is now inferior to it. And the worst part is that it's the weakest branch of the WWE's product.

Therefore, TNA's best has now become worse than WWE's worst.

 

[Lady Sheamus]

Respectfully, I disagree. Divas...are Divas, and in my mind there's only a few real wrestlers amongst them. I'm losing interest in both at this point, given everything that's happened. If this was a comparison to the former Divas (Molly Holly, Jazz, Jacqueline, Lita, Trish, etc.) to the Knockouts of today, I would be more inclined to agree.