WWE: Briefcase on a Pole Match, Kurt Angle vs. the Great Muta

[Shocky]

The following match takes place in the WWE Region, from Madison Square Garden, in New York City.

Match: Briefcase on a pole. A pole will be placed in a corner of the ring. From this pole, a briefcase will be placed, and the first wrestler to regain the Briefcase, will be the winner.

Kurt Angle

vs.

Keiji Mutoh

 

[Razor]

I don't know guys...Kurt Angle is currently in TNA, and they love their ____ On a Pole matches. He should know exactly what to do.

Not that his competition, The Great Muta, couldn't figure it out rather quickly. It's not that difficult. Grab a briefcase off of a pole. Oh wow, what a hard concept.

This gimmick match, as I see it, is basically a non-issue. It comes down to the wrestlers, the wear and tear they've been through to get this far and whether they could (based on that wear and tear) gather the strength to put the other man down, so as to get that damn briefcase.

I'm not at all sure yet on who to declare the winner, and I'm open to being convinced. I'm leaning towards The Great Muta though. That man can take some crazy punishment. What are a few Angle Slams against the man that The Muta Scale was named after?

 

[Blade]

Muta has the agility advantage here, which is needed for Pole matches. Sure, the match would go on for ages due to both men's seemingly infinite number of ways to take each other off the top rope while the other is trying to get the case.

Angle would time and time again leap up to the top rope and do his belly to belly on Muta as Muta goes for the case. But that move takes an awful lot of energy, there's only a certain amount of times Angle could do it before simply passing out.
Aside from Angle's general moves he has the Angle Slam and the Ankle lock. Now, I don't think the Slam would do much in this match. It would keep Muta down for a while, but by the time Muta would be worn down enough for Angle to use it, Angle would be pretty worn down himself, and thus wouldn't be able to capitalise.
Angle's best weapon is the Ankle Lock. If he locks it in for long enough, Muta won't be able to climb up the turnbuckle. But I think Muta wouldn't allow himself to get into that kinda predicament.

In terms of Muta's weapons, he's got the mist. If Muta sprayed the mist into Angle's face, Muta would get the briefcase no problems, Angle would be totally incapacitated for at least 30 seconds. But at the same time, would Muta be able to hit Angle with the mist? Angle would have scouted Muta very well, and would be always alert to never give Muta the chance to hit the mist, he be constantly moving.

So I think, in the end, in comes down to 1 thing. The fact that the match is no DQ. Muta would take any no DQ match. Kurt has had his bloody battles, but Muta is simply sadistic and would try to make Kurt feel pain he's never felt before.

I think Muta takes this one.

 

[Checkmate]

Following the above post, I agree completely. This would and should come down to the wear and tear on the guys in the ring. However, where you are leaning toward Muta, I'm leaning toward Angle.

I don't think the Angle Slam would be enough to keep Muta down long enough to grab anything. However, the Ankle Lock definately should be. To keep my post short and sweet, I'd see Angle damn near breaking Muta's ankle, then having a much easier time grabbing the briefcase. Not that this would be an easy match at all, but how is a guy with one leg going to win?

 

[2012isbs]

I have to say Angle he's more used to pole matches. Granted Muta would put up a great fight but Angle would be to used to gimmicks in total nonstop gimmicks wrestling. I could see Muta winning though but im leaning toward Angle.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

If this was ANY other kind of match, I'd give the win to Angle, but this is a match where a pin fall isn't necessary. This is a match where Muta thrives in. All he has to do is incapacitate Angle with the Mist or the Shining Wizard and up the turnbuckle to the briefcase he goes.

This will be a classic match in itself and there will be a lot of sick spots, but Muta takes it. Muta's quicker, doesn't need to pin the Olympic Hero, and has too many weapons to use to disable Angle from getting to the case.

Muta takes it in a mild upset.

 

[NSL]

I'm not a fan of Muta, but I have to vote for him here. Angle is a great wrestler, and like Lariat, I'd vote him over in anything...But this. Muta just needs to use the mist once to blind Angle, and then the case is all his. It'll be a great match for 20-25 minutes, and then it'll be over. I thought Angle would go to the WWE Finals, but I can't see him getting over here.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

I believe that I was the first one to bring up the mist argument in another thread. I had convinced myself to vote Muta.

But whoa, hold on for a minute. Kurt Angle is arguably the smartest wrestler ever. He knows how to scout an opponent, avoid their strengths, and attack their weaknesses. Muta's biggest advantage in this match is obviously his mist. Kurt Angle will know this long before the match starts. Therefore, Kurt Angle being a smart man, will come to the ring in a full face mask. His eyes will be covered. Kurt Angle, by wearing this face mask, takes away his biggest weakness in the match.

After dealing with the problem of the mist, it's down to a wrestling match. Muta really isn't that much quicker than Kurt Angle. Generally, we agree that the smaller wrestler is automatically faster and more agile. But, in this case, I think that Muta's speed is exaggerated. He was fast. I won't deny that. But, Muta wasn't the most impressive athlete. He was big for a "cruiserweight", weighing 245 pounds. Kurt is a tad shorter and is billed at 240. He's actually the smaller wrestler in this match. Angle, at his peak, was in Olympic condition. He's quick. Is he quicker than Muta? We'll never know. It's possible.

Kurt is easily a better technical wrestler. He's a better technical wrestler than anyone in the tournament.

Kurt has great endurance. Again, let me reference his Olympic experience. It takes superb conditioning to do what he did.

Weapons will come into play in this match. Kurt Angle is the tougher wrestler. He won a gold medal with a broken freakin' neck. He can take any shots Muta hits him with and return fire.

What else is there? Oh yes. Kurt Angle also has the Angle Lock. That can definitely mess up Muta's ankle to the point where it will take forever to climb that pole. It also hinders his offense. Muta was pretty fast paced.

Speaking of climbing the turnbuckle, Kurt is known for his suplexes. Those are easy as pie for him to execute and take nearly nothing out of him. When Muta is climbing, he better watch his back or he'll soon experience a devastating belly-to-back suplex.

Basically, there isn't really a reason to vote Muta now that Angle can counter the mist. Vote Kurt.

 

[NSL]

But whoa, hold on for a minute. Kurt Angle is arguably the smartest wrestler ever. He knows how to scout an opponent, avoid their strengths, and attack their weaknesses. Muta's biggest advantage in this match is obviously his mist. Kurt Angle will know this long before the match starts. Therefore, Kurt Angle being a smart man, will come to the ring in a full face mask. His eyes will be covered. Kurt Angle, by wearing this face mask, takes away his biggest weakness in the match.

Wearing a mask? Really? Muta has fought smarter guys than Angle, and they never ever wore a mask to the ring. I didn't see Sting ever wear one, and I doubt Angle would. And, how would covering his eyes help him? It would cut down on his visibility, and make Muta's quickness an even bigger factor. All you did was prove how Muta would win.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Angle is an extremely gifted athlete who can take out men twice his size. But, the smartest wrestlers ever? You're going to have to do some major convincing there, 48.7. Kurt Angle is a hot head who can beat anyone toe to toe. But, Muta would never go toe to toe with Angle. I posted Muta's match with Shinya Hashimoto in the Muta vs. Samoa Joe thread. After watching that match, how can you tell me that Muta is not a great strategist? He knows exactly which buttons to press and all of his opponents' weaknesses as well.

Angle would be able to beat Keiji Mutoh, no doubt. But, The Great Muta? I'm not so sure. However, I am definitely sure that Angle would never be able to beat Muta in a match like this, where strategy is key.

Vote: Muta

 

[Gelgarin]

Pole matches are no DQ right? I thought so. Muta wins.

You could take Terry Funk, Raven, Mick Foley and the entire cast of Big Japan Pro Wrestling and I would still rather face them than Muta in an environment where he can't get disqualified.

I'm not going to do a long post here because I don't think it will change anybody's mind, but The Great Muta is possibly the most violent heel persona in the history of wrestling. Muta is used to fighting in an environment where he can't be disqualified for anything he does outside the ring, and had built his entire wrestling style around that. In other words, he has twenty years of experience fighting in a no DQ environment. Compare that to Angle and his dependence on technical mat based wrestling, and it's clear to see how the stipulation hands Muta an advantage.

The argument that Angle has experienced prolonged exposer to Vince Russo and as such has been infused with pole match experience is daft. For one, I can't remember Angle actually participating in more than perhaps one pole match, which hardly counts as experience. For two, although he hides it well, Muta is probably the more athletic of the two. Angle will certainly be exposing himself the frankensteiners every time he tries to ascent the ring post.

Want another piece of evidence? With no DQs, Muta can use the Asian mist at will. Now I agree that Angle is smart enough to scout Asian mist once or twice, but if anybody's watched Muta's feud with Tajiri (remember him) you'll know that that isn't enough. Tajiri is the second greatest master of the Asian mist in the business, and even he succumbed to it eventually. Muta was able to launch the mist no fewer that eight (I think) times during their final match, and no mater haw many ways Tajiri fount to block it, it was ever enough.

But so what I here you say (Jerk!). So angle gets a laod of green pain on his face, big deal. What you're missing is that green mist isn't the only thing Muta can spray. Green mist temporerally blinds a person, but there are also substances Muta used that can make an opponent loose consciousness or try to claw off their own face. Muta was able to drop Scott Steiner (in his prime) with the blue mist, and it keeps an opponent down for more than long enough for Muta to secure a briefcase.

Muta has a pain threshold that is the stuff of legend (both legit and kayfabe) and no amount of damage Angle can inflict on that ankle is going to prevent him climbing. Additionally, for anybody who claims that Angle could just Muta and ware him down for twenty minuets of so, Keiji Mutoh is regarded as one of Japan's finest technicians. He very seldom goes to that well when he's playing Muta, but history has shown that it's a tool at his disposal when he wants it.

Muta is a bigger legend and more proven draw in Japan that Angle is in America, although for the sake of interest it is worth notching that the two man have al ot in common. Angle got over for his in ring ability in a company dominated by charisma. Muta got over for his charisma in a promotion dominated by in ring masters. Both men are about a good as it is possible for a professional wrester to get, but Muta wins this match.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Muta is quicker than Angle so that gives him a slight advantage as this match won't play to Angle's strengths. I believe the mist will come in to play but I don't believe it will be a 100% guarantee that Angle gets sprayed. He may be quick enough to duck, hit an Angle Slam and grab the briefcase. Muta hits more than he misses so he will retrieve the briefcase after blinding Angle.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

Really though. Angle was a real, professional wrestler. He's probably hurt his face and worn a face mask or has defeated an opponent wearing one. He'll have spent the majority of his time preparing to face Muta thinking about how to avoid the mist. I say that Angle covers his eyes with goggles or a face mask. Mist is out.

Gelgarin, for you to say that Muta is the better technician is laughable. Kurt Angle is an Olympic gold medalist. The Great Muta wouldn't last 15 seconds against an Olympic wrestler. Kurt Angle is THE master technician.

You're right. Muta has a huge tolerance to pain. That helps him. But, Angle has at least as much resistance to pain. As I mentioned earlier, he wrestled with a broken neck and has been competing with horrible back and neck pains for the past few years. He can take some weapon shots.

Uhm... I really forgot what else I'd say.

 

[NSL]

Really though. Angle was a real, professional wrestler. He's probably hurt his face and worn a face mask or has defeated an opponent wearing one. He'll have spent the majority of his time preparing to face Muta thinking about how to avoid the mist. I say that Angle covers his eyes with goggles or a face mask. Mist is out.

And, while he's cleaning the green mist off of his goggles, so he can see, Muta will be climbing the ropes, and grabbing briefcase. Wearing goggles will stop it from having long-term effects, but they won't be needed anyway. Unless Angle walks to the ring wearing a shielded hockey mask with an automatic wiper connected to it, Muta wins.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

And, while he's cleaning the green mist off of his goggles, so he can see, Muta will be climbing the ropes, and grabbing briefcase. Wearing goggles will stop it from having long-term effects, but they won't be needed anyway. Unless Angle walks to the ring wearing a shielded hockey mask with an automatic wiper connected to it, Muta wins.

Because it takes more than a second to wipe some green water from your eyes? You're acting as if he's going to sit in the corner, pull out a hanky, and proceed to clean his goggles. No chance.

Kurt Angle also has great ring presence. He always knows where in the ring he is and I'm sure he wouldn't let something like wiping mist off his protective eyewear lose the match for him. He'd know that Muta was going for the case and he'd follow.

 

[NSL]

Because it takes more than a second to wipe some green water from your eyes? You're acting as if he's going to sit in the corner, pull out a hanky, and proceed to clean his goggles. No chance.

Kurt Angle also has great ring presence. He always knows where in the ring he is and I'm sure he wouldn't let something like wiping mist off his protective eyewear lose the match for him. He'd know that Muta was going for the case and he'd follow.

It will take more than a second. His first reaction will be to wipe it off, smearing it. Making it worse. Then, he'll have to take them off to give chase.

He can't exactly give chase if he can't see where his opponent is going...Can he? There's nothing he can do to combat the mist. Goggles aren't going to help. If anything, it just gives Muta one more weapon to use against him.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

It will take more than a second. His first reaction will be to wipe it off, smearing it. Making it worse. Then, he'll have to take them off to give chase.

He can't exactly give chase if he can't see where his opponent is going...Can he? There's nothing he can do to combat the mist. Goggles aren't going to help. If anything, it just gives Muta one more weapon to use against him.

Because you certainly can't wipe off a liquid, right? When goggles are wet and you wipe them off, it smears some and leaves a bit of water, but you can still see plenty fine. Same thing here.

And, I said he always knows where he is. Kurt knows where the pole is and it's not hard to figure that Muta would make a break for it after the mist. If he really can't see, as you seem to think, then he can just dart for the pole and suplex Muta off of it. Oh, he can hear Muta too.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Well, like I said, it doesn't take an absolute genius to win a Pole Match. And even if it did, you hardly get to being an Olympic Gold Medallist and six time WWE champion by being a dope. I'd go as far to say that Kurt Angle is one of the best strategists of all time. Therefore, he wouldn't fall for this "well, Muta sprays mist, so beats anyone" bullshit.

There are several ways to not get hit by Muta's mist:
1) Don't stare at his mouth like a ******. You might be star struck, but have some common sense.
2) Punch him in the throat. He goes "ugh!" and sprays into the air. No, seriously, I've seen it done.
3) Alright, you didn't follow my advice. You've been hit. Wipe it out your eyes. Dumbass.

You're all talking like Kurt Angle can't incapacitate people. He very clearly can. In fact, he's probably got the best counter against agility - the Ankle Lock. Not to mention that this is a man that has spent his career playing possum while his opponent climbs the turnbuckle until, at the very latest moment, he jumps up and hits the top rope superplex/german suplex/angle slam/whatever else.

And you want precedent? King of the Mountain match. Considerably tougher than a Pole Match, I assure you, and ten times as ******ed. There are so many gimmicks on this mother, you better have a strategy ready. Five guys, one cage, one belt, a couple ladders, and a hook to hang the belt on after you've pinned someone. Mental, I know. Kurt won his first ever one.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

But Sam, people seem to think that The Ankle Lock won't even phase Muta. After all, he's got such a high pain threshold that he'll be able to run around the ring and climb with a broken ankle. Muta shouldn't win this. He's going up against a former 6-time WWE champion, a former 2-time (I think) TNA champion, and an Olympic Gold Medalist. If Kurt really wanted to, he could just wrestle Muta to the mat and have him twisted into the shape of a pretzel within about 10 seconds.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Quite frankly, I'm upset someone in the WCW or TNA regions didn't draw this gimmick. I could have made the argument that who wins the match is pretty much up in the air due to the briefcase dropping from the pole within two minutes of the match starting.

As it is, Angle wins.

 

[Gelgarin]

But Sam, people seem to think that The Ankle Lock won't even phase Muta. After all, he's got such a high pain threshold that he'll be able to run around the ring and climb with a broken ankle. Muta shouldn't win this. He's going up against a former 6-time WWE champion, a former 2-time (I think) TNA champion, and an Olympic Gold Medalist. If Kurt really wanted to, he could just wrestle Muta to the mat and have him twisted into the shape of a pretzel within about 10 seconds.

Quite a nice attempt given that you don't know what you're talking about... nah, I tell I lie, it's rubbish.

Would you care to tell me exactly how many times Kurt Angle has 'actually' broken a person's ankle. Kayfabe or real is fine, whichever you like. I know he talks about it a lot, but given that it pretty much never materialises the claim that he's going to do it here, especially against an opponent as technically sound as Muta, is laughable. I don't have figures to back this one up on account of not being able to read Japanese, but you can bet your bottom dollar that Muta has been responsible for more kayfabe injuries than Angle.

I'm pretty sure I already pre-empted the "Angle will wrestle him and win" argument, but for your benefit, I'll do it again. Kurt Angle is a better technician that Muta, that's true (although the gulf is no ware near as big as you'd like to make out). The problem with that argument is that Kurt Angle is also a better amateur technician that anybody else he's ever faced, and all things considered, it doesn't do him a whole lot of good.
Kurt Angle has 'never' won matches by simply mat wrestling his opponent, and ring technicians far inferior to the Great Muta have repeatedly shown their ability to go hold for hold with him.

Conversely, Almost nobody in history (Small exception for Liger) has shown the ability to out think or out brawl Muta. A lot of guys can match him inside the confines of the ring, but once it spills outside into a no DQ area, we are in Muta's kingdom. Mat wrestling is a very valuable skill, but in a hardcore environment it falls pretty transparently into second place.

As for the mist, people seem to be trying to paraphrase my argument as "Muta has the mist so he wins" which is stupid... almost as stupid as "Angle has a gold medal in a completely different spot, so he wins... of and he's American... Go America!"

My argument is that Muta is a better professional wrestler. He's more athletic. He's better suited to the gimmick. He has had a better and longer career. He's more violent, more crafty, and if I want to throw another point out them, he also has far more tournament experience. Muta has won more legitimate heavyweight championships and has defended them against a far greater cross section of talent. The fact that Muta can cause Angle to loose consciousness at any point by spraying blue mist in his eyes is just an added bonus.

The only advantage Angle has is as a batter mat wrestler, and since this isn't a mat based fight, it's daft to claim that he's going to win.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Seven paragraphs, Gelgarin? This could get quite interesting.

Would you care to tell me exactly how many times Kurt Angle has 'actually' broken a person's ankle.

'Broken' is really the wrong word. 'Damaged to the point where the recipient has severe trouble walking' would be better. The answer (after the trade of words)? Quite a lot, quite often.

I don't have figures to back this one up on account of not being able to read Japanese, but you can bet your bottom dollar that Muta has been responsible for more kayfabe injuries than Angle.

The man's been wrestling for sixteen more years. I should certainly hope so.

Conversely, Almost nobody in history (Small exception for Liger) has shown the ability to out think or out brawl Muta. A lot of guys can match him inside the confines of the ring, but once it spills outside into a no DQ area, we are in Muta's kingdom. Mat wrestling is a very valuable skill, but in a hardcore environment it falls pretty transparently into second place.

Since when has a pole match been a hardcore environment? Sure, it might be no holds barred, but a hardcore environment it is not. The most violent thing I think I've seen done in a pole match is someone hitting someone else with a stick of sorts. I don't think I've ever seen someone leave the ring in a pole match.

"Angle has a gold medal in a completely different spot, so he wins... of and he's American... Go America!"

It's not completely different now, is it?

My argument is that Muta is a better professional wrestler. He's more athletic. He's better suited to the gimmick. He has had a better and longer career. He's more violent, more crafty, and if I want to throw another point out them, he also has far more tournament experience. Muta has won more legitimate heavyweight championships and has defended them against a far greater cross section of talent. The fact that Muta can cause Angle to loose consciousness at any point by spraying blue mist in his eyes is just an added bonus.

"Crafty", "athletic", "violent", "better suited", "blue"; all very vague terms that don't actually mean that much.

I mean it's all well and good to say Muta's more violent, but this match isn't based on violence. It's well and good to say he's crafty, but in reality he's just pulled similar bullshit over and over and his opponents have been too stupid to learn from it. Athletic is the vaguest term of all. "Jumpy aroundey", oddly enough, would have been a better term.

 

[Gelgarin]

Well you've done something of a hatchet job on my post... but what the hell, I'll roll with it.

'Broken' is really the wrong word. 'Damaged to the point where the recipient has severe trouble walking' would be better. The answer (after the trade of words)? Quite a lot, quite often.

If we're rephrasing 'broken' to hurt, then I can bring back the counter argument of Muta's sub human pain threshold. Muta has spent the best part of 20 years working in a company where submissions are the bread and butter of the offence (as opposed to America where they are seldom attempted and frequently no sold) and when fighting opponents such as Masahero Chono (inventer of the STF/FTS and trained in catch wrestling by Lou Thesz) or Shinsuke Nakamura (One of the best submission masters in Japan) or Sting (a complete douchbag who went over Lou Thesz in the previous round) he has obtained a reputation as one of the hardest guys to put down.
If team Angle is retracting the argument that Kurt is physically going to snap Muta's ankle then there is no way he's putting him down with a submission.

The man's been wrestling for sixteen more years. I should certainly hope so.

There you go, experience.

Since when has a pole match been a hardcore environment? Sure, it might be no holds barred, but a hardcore environment it is not. The most violent thing I think I've seen done in a pole match is someone hitting someone else with a stick of sorts. I don't think I've ever seen someone leave the ring in a pole match.

You cannot be disqualified in a pole match. Therefore it is hardcore. Just because all the wrestlers in America have been "too stupid" to recognise the potential that this hands them does not mean that the potential is not there.

It's not completely different now, is it?

As a matter of fact... yes.

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[youtube]azRGvgaIn8Y[/youtube]

"Crafty", "athletic", "violent", "better suited", "blue"; all very vague terms that don't actually mean that much.

I mean it's all well and good to say Muta's more violent, but this match isn't based on violence. It's well and good to say he's crafty, but in reality he's just pulled similar bullshit over and over and his opponents have been too stupid to learn from it. Athletic is the vaguest term of all. "Jumpy aroundey", oddly enough, would have been a better term.

It's probably not much worse than calling Angle a great "strategist". Which I will refute right now for your viewing pleasure. Kurt Angle the professional wrestler is a horrible strategist, or more accurately he's a good strategist who completely undermines it by having a horrible temper. I've lost count of the number of times we've seen Angle start off by dominating a match by mat wrestling his opponent, but then get drawn into a match that doesn't suit him by means of his short fuse. Muta comes from the Undertaker school of mind games and should have few problems getting into Angle's head and having the Olympic hero let his guard down for a mist enabling moment.

Now as the for the rest of my terminology, you yourself are getting towards the right lines regarding Muta's craftiness. You see, contrary to your expectations, wrestlers in Japan are not stupid. Every opponent Muta faces goes into the match with the Asian Mist scouted. Muta's genius comes from his ability to always find a way to launch it. Muta has historically allowed himself to be places in submission holds that bring his opponent's face into range. He is a master of playing possum or using the ring. Saying Muta knows every trick in the book is unnecessary, because Muta probably wrote the book. I'll refer back again the the match with Tajiri. Tajiri knows Asian Mist better than any opponent Muta has ever faced. The whole story of the match was Tajiri constantly finding ways the counter (such as by blocking with his own Mist, defending with a steal chair and at one point I believe wearing a mask) and the summation of the feud was that it didn't work. Muta was one step ahead at the end, and won the match.

By athletic yes, I mean jumpy aroundy, which is pretty relevant when you keep having to ascend a pole. Muta pulls the same trick and Angle with regards to playing possum then jumping up the ring-post, but instead of coming off with a front suplex that finished nobody, Angle will constantly put himself in the way of a frankensteiner that people almost never get up form.

The match is as violent as Muta wants to make it, and he's going to want to make it violent. Muta wins.

 

[justinsayne]

Somebody needs to explain t me how the fuck Muta is going to climb the ropes and retrieve the briefcase after Angle breaks his damn ankle, also lets not forget Angle is also extremely agile in his own right, I remember seeing him leap up to the top rope an throw people off countless times, I see the match ending like this Muta thinks he has Angle down, and attempts to climb up the ropes and grab the briefcase, only for Angle to jump up to the turnbuckle out of nowhere as Muta is reaching up and hit an Angle/Olympic slam then proceeds to lock in the ankle lock with the leg vice and keeps it locked in until Muta's ankle breaks, Angle then climbs the ropes, grabs the breifcase and walks out the winner

 

[Uncle Sam]

If team Angle is retracting the argument that Kurt is physically going to snap Muta's ankle then there is no way he's putting him down with a submission.

Well, Angle has been known not to let go when his opponent doesn't tap out. A combination of a grapevine and no rope break certainly increases the chances of Muta's leg getting seriously damaged.

There you go, experience.

Which isn't really important at all in professional wrestling, is it? The less experience man wins more often than not.

You cannot be disqualified in a pole match. Therefore it is hardcore.

You'd have a hard time getting disqualified in the Royal Rumble too, but it's hardly hardcore.

Just because all the wrestlers in America have been "too stupid" to recognise the potential that this hands them does not mean that the potential is not there.

Well, I think the logic is that if you go out of the ring to collect a chair or something, your opponent will have grabbed whatever's on the pole by the time you get back.

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The key thing I said is "completely". You said they're completely different, I said they're not. Angle certainly incorporates aspects of amateur wrestling into his matches. It's not a particularly important point, I'll admit, but Angle could keep Muta grounded and smothered.

I've lost count of the number of times we've seen Angle start off by dominating a match by mat wrestling his opponent, but then get drawn into a match that doesn't suit him by means of his short fuse.

I don't remember any occasions of this happening, at least in the way you state. I can think of matches where it could be loosely inferred that that's what happened.

Muta comes from the Undertaker school of mind games and should have few problems getting into Angle's head and having the Olympic hero let his guard down for a mist enabling moment.

It's interesting you say that because Undertaker and Angle had one of the greatest matches of all time together in 2006, during which Angle didn't let his guard down for a second.

Every opponent Muta faces goes into the match with the Asian Mist scouted. Muta's genius comes from his ability to always find a way to launch it.

I've been watching videos of Muta spitting mist into people's faces. If they've got it scouted, they haven't got it scouted well. They normally turn round, stare at his face and wait for him to spit at them.

Muta has historically allowed himself to be places in submission holds that bring his opponent's face into range.

Like, for example, the grapevine ankle lock?

Muta was one step ahead at the end, and won the match.

Tajiri's shit.

By athletic yes, I mean jumpy aroundy, which is pretty relevant when you keep having to ascend a pole. Muta pulls the same trick and Angle with regards to playing possum then jumping up the ring-post, but instead of coming off with a front suplex that finished nobody, Angle will constantly put himself in the way of a frankensteiner that people almost never get up form.

You're kidding, right?

The match is as violent as Muta wants to make it, and he's going to want to make it violent. Muta wins.

Muta says "Wait here" (in Japanese, obviously), goes to get a chair. Oh no, Angle's got the briefcase.