Wrestling Spam Zone Heated Debate (Currently serving up WWE Hall of Fame)
- Thread starter The Doctor
- Start date
So who actually cares what you have to say?
My opinion: Nobody.
*Insert comment about irony here*
Thriller Ant
Beep Bop Boop
Little Jerry Lawler
Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids
Yes, I know what I said. Now go back and place it in context of the argument. For fuck's sake I even quoted xfear's post, surely it can't be that hard for you to figure out.
Thriller Ant
Beep Bop Boop
Doesn't matter how many times I read it, Sly. It still reads as you being hypocritical. Don't sweat it though, happens to a lot of us.
No, it reads as you obviously being stupid. For fuck's sake does everyone have to hold your hand? Are you incapable of interpreting anything?
Xfear was mocking the opinion of both KB and I compared to Meltzer, because Meltzer went to certain places and covered certain events. Thus, he was saying our opinions don't compare to Meltzer's because of Meltzer's involvement in the business. I replied by pointing out two guys who have done FAR more in the business, who was actually INVOLVED in those biggest events Meltzer was covering, and who were the REASON for those events, and noting those two guys say that Meltzer's opinions are shit.
Xfear was trying to make an argument of quality based upon assumed authority, to which I completely destroyed with a higher authority, thus negating Xfear's position that we should take Meltzer's opinion seriously.
Neither Meltzer's nor Hogan/Bischoff's ego had anything to do with my comment. Now, would you like me to explain how the birds and bees work to you as well? God damn, it's like talking to a child.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
As for #1, my guess would be the awful business done when Bret, a technical guy, was on top as compared to the times when entertaining non-technical guys were on top.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
The 92 Rumble
TLC 2
Benoit vs. Bret in Owen's Tribute Match
Bad Breed vs. Gangstas
Rate those on the same scale.
Tiger Chaos Theory
You ain't drawin' shit!
I missed getting in on this.Unsold Bacon
Shucky Ducky Quack Quack
What workrate? The workrate is piss poor in that match, there's almost zero action in that match from bell to bell and the action itself does very little to achieve drama or suspense. Just the story of Hogan wanting to slam Andre isn't enough to make it a good match, otherwise we'd all be calling Lex Luger vs Yokozuna from 1994 a good match, and we all know that's not even slightly true though it tells the same exact body-slam story as this match does.
Sorry if I require more than the world's weakest looking bear-hug in order to consider the back to be properly worked on. Besides, he worked on the back, and what happens? Hogan no-sells it five minutes later. Terrible selling and psychology, brought on by the formula Hogan ending of Hulk-Up, Punch, Bodyslam, Legdrop, 1-2-3. For being the biggest match of all time it sure as fuck didn't deliver on that promise considering I could see the same match worked on any house show from the 80s with a big man vs Hogan.
Umm...what? Yes that is, that's literally the Hogan formula, how the fuck is it not? Hogan gets beaten down, he Hulks Up and completely forgets his injuries, gives a ew punches and a body slam and then finishes with the leg drop. That is Hogan Formula 101.
No he didn't at all. Hogan starts off dominating with punches and tries to go for the slam but can't, which is then promptly followed by the world's worst bear hug or the majority of the match. Hogan never looked in danger in that match, at all. Everyone knew a freaking bearhug wasn't going to put Hogan away.
Yeah if the main event involved Hogan and Andre, one of whom was physically incapable of working more than 10 minutes of drivel at that point in his career. Main events typically went 20 minutes plus from the time Bruno was champion all the way up to Backlund and it all ended when Hogan got the title, because he worked the same 10 minute match week after week on show after show.
The length wouldn't be an issue though if 99% of the match wasn't the worlds weakest looking bear-hug/rest hold. I've seen plenty of great matches that were barely 10 minutes long, this was absolutely not one of them.
Yeah I agree it's not negative four stars, but it's nowhere near the classic some of you are billing it as. It's the wrestling equivalent of a giant blockbuster film that flops at the box office to me, so much expectations and insane hype only to be completely and utterly let down by a Hogan formula match you could literally see on any 80s house show.
Lol you mean when the WWF was outdrawing WCW in 1994 with Bret Hart as champion while Hogan debuted in WCW to incredibly disappointing ratings and buyrates? If I remember correctly Wrestlemania that year outdrew Hogan's big debut at Bash at the Beach by quite a bit.
Okay, you made me dig my DVD out and watch the match again.
The work rate was very good, very believable. Hogan did a great job selling Andre's strength, and Andre played the "monster heel" to a tee. He played the role of a heel perfectly, always slowing down the pace of the match, always looking at the crowd as if to taunt them with his dominance over Hogan. Hogan for his part showed the resilience his character was known for and the perseverance that was Hogan's trademark.
The pacing was slow (as it should have been really, with a monster heel dominating the offense of the match) but the workrate was actually quite high.
Your criticism is completely untrue, if not biased.
First of all, right after the slam attempt, Andre PUMMELED Hogan's back with punches and forearms, and body slams. Hell, towards the end, they even worked in a spot with the failed pile driver to the floor resulting in a back body drop.
If you require more, then you got your wish in this match.
Go back and watch it again. Your facts are mostly wrong on this match.
Do yourself a favor and watch the match again.
Match Start - 2:43:38
Bearhug Start - 2:49:51
Bearhug End 2:52:40
Match End - 2:55:38
What you see is the match went exactly 12 minutes, and the bear hug didn't last even three, which doesn't even come close to the majority of the match. Add in the fact the bearhug was a spot that wasn't just two guys sitting there (Hogan especially was working the crowd in the spot) and to ridicule the spot is just silly.
Your criticisms are far too harsh. No one here is claiming the in-ring work ranks with Steamboat vs. Savage from earlier in the card, but it's no where near as bad as you're making it out to be.
I say this without any harshness in my tone...do go back and watch the full match again. It's really not as you seem to be remembering it.
I think you're confusing the pacing of the match to the workrate.
The work rate was very good, very believable. Hogan did a great job selling Andre's strength, and Andre played the "monster heel" to a tee. He played the role of a heel perfectly, always slowing down the pace of the match, always looking at the crowd as if to taunt them with his dominance over Hogan. Hogan for his part showed the resilience his character was known for and the perseverance that was Hogan's trademark.
The pacing was slow (as it should have been really, with a monster heel dominating the offense of the match) but the workrate was actually quite high.
But there was more to the match than that. It started with Hogan's attempt to bodyslam Andre, but he couldn't, and the attempt resulted in Hogan's back being badly hurt. Andre then spends nearly the entire portion of his offense working on Hogan's back, including the bear hug which is no where NEAR as long as people make it out to be. It was a little less than 3 minutes, which was spent entirely working the crowd into believing Hogan was nearly out, and then had the ensuing face comeback.
Your criticism is completely untrue, if not biased.
Weak looking? Have you actually watched the match?
First of all, right after the slam attempt, Andre PUMMELED Hogan's back with punches and forearms, and body slams. Hell, towards the end, they even worked in a spot with the failed pile driver to the floor resulting in a back body drop.
If you require more, then you got your wish in this match.
When was the last time you actually watched this match? You're probably like me, you probably watched it a while back and don't really remember the match.
Go back and watch it again. Your facts are mostly wrong on this match.
Except that's not what happened in this match.
Do yourself a favor and watch the match again.
Again, go back and watch the match. The bearhug wasn't the majority of the match. I actually timed this.
Match Start - 2:43:38
Bearhug Start - 2:49:51
Bearhug End 2:52:40
Match End - 2:55:38
What you see is the match went exactly 12 minutes, and the bear hug didn't last even three, which doesn't even come close to the majority of the match. Add in the fact the bearhug was a spot that wasn't just two guys sitting there (Hogan especially was working the crowd in the spot) and to ridicule the spot is just silly.
You might have a point here if you were even CLOSE to being accurate. But you're not, so you don't.
I never said it was a great match.
Except none of this is true. The crowd was white-hot the entire match, and popped with a mega roar at the end (which you have even acknowledged) so obviously it wasn't a flop when it was going on, because the crowd absolutely ate it up. And this "Hogan formula" you're mentioning doesn't even come close to the Hogan formula, unless you consider a bodyslam and a finisher to be a "formula", in which case EVERY match in the last 20 years has ended with a formula.
Your criticisms are far too harsh. No one here is claiming the in-ring work ranks with Steamboat vs. Savage from earlier in the card, but it's no where near as bad as you're making it out to be.
I say this without any harshness in my tone...do go back and watch the full match again. It's really not as you seem to be remembering it.
Actually WCW's business went from the red to the black in 1994, starting around the time of Hogan's arrival in WCW. I think you can go back and look at old SEC filings for proof of that.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
And the company, WWF, was still drawing dick. No one was making money at that time.
All righty Sly, you've done it now. Making me go dig out the match again and watch it just for your handsome ass. I'll respond to your post later tonight ater re-watching it again.
Also, KB, larger PPV Buyrates = Larger Draw. Not sure how that formula is even arguable. WWF's PPVs outdrew every single one of WCW's PPVs and the WWF absolutely destroyed WCW in terms of money made from house shows and touring around the globe that year.
I just went and looked back at some of the 1994 buyrates for both companies, and Wrestlemania's buyrate was nearly 3 times the buyrate for WCW's Starrcade that year, headlined by that surefire money-making main event of Hulk vs Beefcake.
Like I said, WWF killed WCW that year with Bret Hart on top while WCW had Hogan on top, so I really wish people would stop believing this myth about Bret being a shit draw, especially since he wasn't even champion when WCW finally did start outdrawing the WWF, it was either Diesel or HBK or Sid and rarely Bret in the spotlight. When he was on top in 94 though, he was a far bigger draw than Hogan was in WCW and the PPV buyrates back that statement up.
Also, KB, larger PPV Buyrates = Larger Draw. Not sure how that formula is even arguable. WWF's PPVs outdrew every single one of WCW's PPVs and the WWF absolutely destroyed WCW in terms of money made from house shows and touring around the globe that year.
I just went and looked back at some of the 1994 buyrates for both companies, and Wrestlemania's buyrate was nearly 3 times the buyrate for WCW's Starrcade that year, headlined by that surefire money-making main event of Hulk vs Beefcake.
Like I said, WWF killed WCW that year with Bret Hart on top while WCW had Hogan on top, so I really wish people would stop believing this myth about Bret being a shit draw, especially since he wasn't even champion when WCW finally did start outdrawing the WWF, it was either Diesel or HBK or Sid and rarely Bret in the spotlight. When he was on top in 94 though, he was a far bigger draw than Hogan was in WCW and the PPV buyrates back that statement up.
You definitely said that. I still have the bruises on my cheeks where I slapped them in surprise and yelled "Mamma mia!"
It's only fair since you made me do the same.
I think you'll find it's not nearly as bad as you remember it, especially if you keep it in the context of the time it was worked.
I'm sorry, was this your attempt to get me to respond to the post you made earlier?
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
And like I said, Bret still drew dick as champion.
Yes. You never told me why Bryan was the hottest - or, indeed, second hottest - thing in the NXT angle. I always meant to ask.
Because those two were the only members of what we now call Nexus with any ongoing storyline, or even any discussion at all.
X, did you watch that match yet?
The Bearded One
Love is not admissable evidence.
I don't see why people criticize the Hogan/Ande match. it was a fantastic piece of story telling. Was it a technical masterpiece? No. But it is a damn fine match. The level of drama is off the charts here. Its one of the most iconic matches in the history of wrestling.
