Wrestling Spam Zone Heated Debate (Currently serving up WWE Hall of Fame)

[klunderbunker]

No, no, no, noooooo. Angle is the classic example of a formula worker in the vein of Bret Hart, another vastly overrated "technical" wrestler. Angle runs the same 4-5 spots in basically every single match he wrestles, he doesn't utilize anywhere near the psychology or workrate inside of the ring as Danielson does, shit just a few weeks ago Danielson wrestled a better technical match in CHIKARA against Tim Donst than Kurt Angle has wrestled since his first encounter with Nigel/Desmond. I'm a big Angle mark, but Danielson can outwork Angle, he can work a crowd better, and he can utilize psychology inside of a ring better than most wrestlers on the planet.

Yeah.....the gold medal he has would suggest he can indeed wrestle better than anyone in wrestling, which is why wrestling isn't completely about what you can do on a mat, because Angle is a far cry from the highest level of guys ever.

Who said anything about how many moves Danielson knows? That's irrelevant. Danielson knows how to work a crowd and a match, and he can play the heel or face role brilliantly if given the chance, and those are the only things that matter inside of a wrestling ring as you yourself just basically said.

Yeah you're right. He can work indy crowds, which are full of smarks that will cheer for guys they like if the match is equivalent to you and I on a mat. He's been in WWE for in essence two months and had one great match against one of the best workers in the world. Going to need more than that to determine if he's as good as he's made out to be, which he won't be.

 

[klunderbunker]

Really, shit? He puts on great matches, and has received the "Best Technical Wrestler" award 5 times, "Most Outstanding Wrestler" 4 times, "Most Outstanding Wrestler of the Decade", that is in no way shit.

If you want to use Meltzer as your arguments, let me find a big thing of ice cream and some sparkling cider because this is going to be fun.

 

[The Doctor]

Brain's pretty on the mark here as per usual. Bryan hasn't done much in the big leagues but beat up Cole and get fired.

And those awards are fairly meaningless.

 

[The Brain]

He continues to get better, he devotes a lot of time training. He'll be better.

Maybe he will be. I'm just not willing to sing his praises until I see him succeed on a national level. I'd love for him to have the opportunity and hope he could do it. It's always great to have new stars. I just can't call him the best when he's only headlined high school gyms and the YMCA.

 

[Slyfox696]

Really, shit?

Really, shit.

He puts on great matches

Not really. I've seen several of his "great matches" and they are average at best. Again more hype than substance.

and has received the "Best Technical Wrestler" award 5 times, "Most Outstanding Wrestler" 4 times, "Most Outstanding Wrestler of the Decade", that is in no way shit.

Where did he win those awards? Meltzer? PWI? Who gives a fuck? Do you not realize the majority of Internet dirt sheet writers are stuck so far up their own ass they wouldn't realize what wrestling was REALLY about if Hulk Hogan planted his size 16 boot in their face?

Oh, sorry. For some reason I was assuming you stopped liking him before he left.

I usually just watch Raw, so if they're not on Raw, I don't follow much.

 

[The Crock]

If you want to use Meltzer as your arguments, let me find a big thing of ice cream and some sparkling cider because this is going to be fun.

Well people talk about 5 star matches all the time, and who rates them Dave Meltzer. The guy knows his shit. You can't deny that it is a valid argument.

 

[The Crock]

Really, shit.
Not really. I've seen several of his "great matches" and they are average at best. Again more hype than substance.



Where did he win those awards? Meltzer? PWI? Who gives a fuck? Do you not realize the majority of Internet dirt sheet writers are stuck so far up their own ass they wouldn't realize what wrestling was REALLY about if Hulk Hogan planted his size 16 boot in their face?


I usually just watch Raw, so if they're not on Raw, I don't follow much.

If you say that then you must think HBK - Undertaker 1 and 2 are shit. I get that a lot of these internet writers are total egotists and shit, but Meltzer is very well respected.

 

[klunderbunker]

Well people talk about 5 star matches all the time, and who rates them Dave Meltzer. The guy knows his shit. You can't deny that it is a valid argument.

Actually yeah I can. I'm one of his biggest critics on here by far and have long since paid zero attention to what he says is a great match. What's the difference between his ratings and my ratings? If my math is right, I've watched probably over 30,000 matches in my life and I think I know what a good match is. What makes Meltzer's opinion any better than mine? He has things he thinks make a match great, I have things I think makes a match great, you do, everyone does. His opinion is just that: an opinion, much like his picks for awards. They mean jack.

 

[Slyfox696]

Well people talk about 5 star matches all the time, and who rates them Dave Meltzer. The guy knows his shit. You can't deny that it is a valid argument.

Sure I can. First of all, I don't talk about 5 star matches all the time, and I certainly give no credit to Dave Meltzer's opinion. For example, in both 1985 and 1986, he gave Hulk Hogan the "Most Overrated Wrestler" award. Now how the fuck can the single biggest draw in the WORLD, the man who made Wrestlemania, the guy who brought riches and fame to the wrestling business be "overrated"?

It's just stupid. Meltzer is his own biggest mark and anyone with the ability to think for themselves knows it.

 

[Slyfox696]

If you say that then you must think HBK - Undertaker 1 and 2 are shit. I get that a lot of these internet writers are total egotists and shit, but Meltzer is very well respected.

They're not shit, but they're no where near as good as people like to pretend they are. The second match is better than the first, but don't even begin to approach Greatest of All Time, like so many people try to label them as.

 

[X]

Well people talk about 5 star matches all the time, and who rates them Dave Meltzer. The guy knows his shit. You can't deny that it is a valid argument.

Hush you! Nevermind the worldwide respect Meltzer has as one of the most intelligent wrestling journalists ever, obviously Sly and KB's opinion mean far more than Meltzer. Nevermind that Meltzer was covering the biggest events in wrestling while they were both in their diapers, no, he knows nothing Crock, don't you forget that either! Meltzer is EVIL! EVIL I TELLS YA!

Yeah.....the gold medal he has would suggest he can indeed wrestle better than anyone in wrestling, which is why wrestling isn't completely about what you can do on a mat, because Angle is a far cry from the highest level of guys ever.

So wait, a second ago you're arguing that it's not about how many moves you know, now you're citing Angle's amateur background as why he's better than Danielson? Amateur wrestling = completely different from working a pro wrestling match. Angle is great, but over the course of the last few years he has not been the best worker/technical wrestler in the world in my eyes.

Yeah you're right. He can work indy crowds, which are full of smarks that will cheer for guys they like if the match is equivalent to you and I on a mat. He's been in WWE for in essence two months and had one great match against one of the best workers in the world. Going to need more than that to determine if he's as good as he's made out to be, which he won't be.

I've seen Danielson work indy crowds, lucha crowds, puro crowds, AND WWE crowds KB, he can work literally any style of wrestling match, I've seen him wrestle technical exhibitions, spotfests, pure storytelling WWE-style, brawls, hardcore wrestling, submission wrestling, you name the style and he can work it. Which is why I and so many others think so highly of his work.

Honestly it's kind of funny, because I remember hearing all of this same shit about guys like Jericho, Benoit, and Guerrero, and last I checked those three's wrestling careers turned out pretty well (notice I said wrestling careers before anyone starts mentioning the Benoit murders).

 

[klunderbunker]

Semi-unrelated Sly, but off the top of your head, what's the best match ever?

 

[The Crock]

They're not shit, but they're no where near as good as people like to pretend they are. The second match is better than the first, but don't even begin to approach Greatest of All Time, like so many people try to label them as.

I agree. Not the greatest matches of all time. They were good, and they were, in my opinion, the best matches on both of those cards.

 

[The Doctor]

They're not shit, but they're no where near as good as people like to pretend they are. The second match is better than the first, but don't even begin to approach Greatest of All Time, like so many people try to label them as.

This as well.

Opinions, all of it. I enjoy Bryan, Sly does not. There are some people who like Drew McIntyre, whereas I cannot stand the guy. It's all down to personal preference.

 

[Slyfox696]

Hush you! Nevermind the worldwide respect Meltzer has as one of the most intelligent wrestling journalists ever, obviously Sly and KB's opinion mean far more than Meltzer. Nevermind that Meltzer was covering the biggest events in wrestling while they were both in their diapers, no, he knows nothing Crock, don't you forget that either! Meltzer is EVIL! EVIL I TELLS YA!

And guys like Bischoff and Hogan actually worked in the business, completely revolutionized the wrestling business, both on screen and off, and they think Meltzer's opinion is shit.

What's your point?

Semi-unrelated Sly, but off the top of your head, what's the best match ever?

For my money, Savage vs. Steamboat is tough to beat.

 

[Slyfox696]

This as well.

Opinions, all of it. I enjoy Bryan, Sly does not. There are some people who like Drew McIntyre, whereas I cannot stand the guy. It's all down to personal preference.

I like John Cena and Hulk Hogan...and those guys actually draw money. So apparently it's not ALL personal preference.

 

[The Crock]

Hush you! Nevermind the worldwide respect Meltzer has as one of the most intelligent wrestling journalists ever, obviously Sly and KB's opinion mean far more than Meltzer. Nevermind that Meltzer was covering the biggest events in wrestling while they were both in their diapers, no, he knows nothing Crock, don't you forget that either! Meltzer is EVIL! EVIL I TELLS YA!

Finally, somebody respects Meltzer on here. The man is the best wrestling journalist ever.

 

[klunderbunker]

So wait, a second ago you're arguing that it's not about how many moves you know, now you're citing Angle's amateur background as why he's better than Danielson? Amateur wrestling = completely different from working a pro wrestling match. Angle is great, but over the course of the last few years he has not been the best worker/technical wrestler in the world in my eyes.

As a wrestler, yeah. Angle is far better than Danielson and anyone else in the wrestling business. When anyone else wins a world championship at the highest level, as in the Olympic Games, in wrestling then there could be a discrepancy. As a sports entertainer, Angle is great but not in the highest level ever. Danielson....eh he's decent. Not someone I'd watch all the time but the one big time match I saw with him (Final Battle vs. Homicide) was entertaining.

I've seen Danielson work indy crowds, lucha crowds, puro crowds, AND WWE crowds KB, he can work literally any style of wrestling match, I've seen him wrestle technical exhibitions, spotfests, pure storytelling WWE-style, brawls, hardcore wrestling, submission wrestling, you name the style and he can work it. Which is why I and so many others think so highly of his work.

Honestly it's kind of funny, because I remember hearing all of this same shit about guys like Jericho, Benoit, and Guerrero, and last I checked those three's wrestling careers turned out pretty well (notice I said wrestling careers before anyone starts mentioning the Benoit murders).

And how many of those shows/matches were in front of the biggest and most important audience in the world? Because I can't remember many of those things happening on the main stage.

Yep, their careers were good. They were solid upper midcard guys that have drawn dick in the main event spots they were given and they lasted all of about a combined year there between them.

 

[Slyfox696]

Finally, somebody respects Meltzer on here. The man is the best wrestling journalist ever.

Which is like saying someone is the fastest one legged man. Doesn't really mean a whole lot.

 

[The Crock]

Just because you don't respect him Sly doesn't mean he doesn't know his shit. Bischoff and Hogan hate him because he criticized them, but they are Gods in their own eyes.

 

[The Doctor]

I like John Cena and Hulk Hogan...and those guys actually draw money. So apparently it's not ALL personal preference.

I like Hogan. Whenever I used to rent wrestling videogames (before I became a real wrestling fan) I always played as him. I also like Cena because I enjoy his matches and promos.

It's personal preferences to me. If McIntyre suddenly became the person that sold PPVs and put butts in seats I wouldn't suddenly turn my opinion around and start liking the guy unless he showed me a reason to like him. It's the same with Bryan. I'm not going to start hating on the guy because he isn't a draw.

 

[Slyfox696]

Just because you don't respect him Sly doesn't mean he doesn't know his shit. Bischoff and Hogan hate him because he criticized them, but they are Gods in their own eyes.

Bischoff and Hogan, two guys who have done FAR more in the business and for the business than Meltzer ever will are Gods in their own eyes, but Meltzer is a God in yours?

Do you realize how fucked up that logic is? I don't respect Meltzer because he's never done anything worthy of my respect. He has ZERO authority when it comes to quality in wrestling, and most times, the things he thinks are good won't ever draw money.

Why the fuck should anyone respect that?

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

I don't pay much attention to Meltzer or match ratings in general but when I've ssen what he gives some matchs I always wonder what his criteria is.

 

[hatehabsforever]

I like Hogan. Whenever I used to rent wrestling videogames (before I became a real wrestling fan) I always played as him. I also like Cena because I enjoy his matches and promos.

It's personal preferences to me. If McIntyre suddenly became the person that sold PPVs and put butts in seats I wouldn't suddenly turn my opinion around and start liking the guy unless he showed me a reason to like him. It's the same with Bryan. I'm not going to start hating on the guy because he isn't a draw.

Plus, he hasn't been given an opportunity at the WWE level to determine if he can draw or not. Maybe he can, maybe he cannot, a faction angle with so many possibilities would be a good first step to see if he can draw or not.

Oh, and in terms of best match ever, I'm partial to Bret Hart/British Bulldog, Wembley Stadium, 1992. Maybe not the best ever, but well up there.

 

[The Brain]

I don't pay much attention to Meltzer or match ratings in general but when I've ssen what he gives some matchs I always wonder what his criteria is.

Must be a Japaneese match to earn 5 stars.