Wrestler Who has achieved the most fame with the least talent...?

[Shocky]

The attitude era was better than the "80's" era? When I'm actually talking about late 80's and early 90's which you've summed up with "80's".

The "80's" era, as you call it, was what made wrestling what it is today. The reason they changed all the gimmicks wasn't because it was falling apart. It was because they were leaving the company.

The attitude era got their asses beat by WCW right when they started for quite some time. It was not until later when WCW hired ex-WWF writer Vince Russo...where WCW collapsed with bad gimmicks and writing and the WWF swooped in and bought them when they were down and out.

NOW, the WWE has no competition and isn't doing NEARLY as well as they used to. Vince McMahon used to be a billionaire and after the XFL bombing and the lack of competition...less and less people watch wrestling now. TNA is around, sure...but it's no where as big as WCW was. Especially with Ted Turners budget.

So before you bash everything about the "80's", please think long and hard and do some research before you talk nonsense. The "80's" is what made what you're watching today possible.

And the stuff you're talking about that wouldn't be allowed in the 80's...I wouldn't want to see anyway. Like Fabulous Mullah or Maye Young giving birth to a rubber glove?? I mean these things are just pointless.

- Hogan

The 80's worked, because the target audience was children, no one is going to doubt or deny that. But guess what, children grow up, teenagers don't want super heroes, and times change.

The WWE got its ass kicked, because it refused to let go of the gimmick wrestling. WCW began to dominate because they started to get rid of the unn eeded gimmicks. It wasn't until late 1997 when the Attitude Era kicked into high gear, so in a span from September to March, or 6 months, the WWE went from getting their asses handed to them, to beating Nitro, that speaks volumes about gimmicks.


WCW got their asses handed to them long before Russo showed up on their doorstep. March 1998-October 1999, that was a solid year and a half of the WWE taking it to WCW without Russo and without the overly childish gimmicks.

The WWE is in a creative slump now, because it has no competition, it's a simple as that. Hell, most of the criticism the WWE receives now is from it's gimmicks. If you look at the TNA board, Gimmick matches are the number one complaint.

Sure, the late 80's and early 90's didn't have Mae Young giving birth to a hand, it only had Hector Guerrero Dressed like a giant mutated Turkey hatching from an egg. All era's have their little black secrets they want to keep hidden somewhere, it's part of the business.

Now onto the Road Warriors. I hardly call two guys going around and bragging about how they broke guys legs in the ring and busted them up quality wrestlers. They had the look and the gimmick, they were over, and allowed to do more things in the ring then most other teams would. Just because they beat people up, doesn't mean they are good wrestlers, but bullies. I'll give you this, they became very entertaining to watch at the end of their careers, because they seemed to finally get what the business was about.

 

[X]

The attitude era was better than the "80's" era? When I'm actually talking about late 80's and early 90's which you've summed up with "80's".

First off, in terms of popularity and money, the Attitude Era blows the 80s and early 90s straight out of the water. Not even in the same league in terms of the money they made in the Attitude Era, so I mean hey, I'm not the only one there.

The "80's" era, as you call it, was what made wrestling what it is today. The reason they changed all the gimmicks wasn't because it was falling apart. It was because they were leaving the company.

I never denied the 80s built wrestling to what it is today. Thats what usually happens in ANYTHING---usually the old builds up to the new, kinda makes chronological sense there doesn't it? And no actually, the WWF was already losing a significant amount of money and was heading towards BANKRUPTCY before anybody ever jumped ship to WCW. The WWF was in terrible financial shape throughout 1991-1993. And why the hell would two top stars leaving mean they change the gimmicks of people? That doesn't make any sense at all. It changed because WCW started beating the hell out of WWF because they weren't full of piss-poor gimmicks and shitty wrestling like the WWF was at the time (Dink, Duke Droise the Garbage Man Wrestler, Fake Razor Ramon & Diesel, hillbilly's, Justin Credible with a jock strap on his head/AKA Aldo Montoya). WCW was seen as the alterntive to WWF's cartoony gimmicks and storylines. That's why WCW beat the hell out of WWF and caused them to change, not because two of their top stars (who were already on there way out) signed with WCW.

The attitude era got their asses beat by WCW right when they started for quite some time. It was not until later when WCW hired ex-WWF writer Vince Russo...where WCW collapsed with bad gimmicks and writing and the WWF swooped in and bought them when they were down and out.

Everything you just said is false. Literally every single sentence and word. The Attitude Era did not start until late 1997 and lasted to roughly around early 2000. The era didn't really kick off though until after Wrestlemania 14, after which WWF would beat the shit out of WCW every single week, for the rest of WCW's history. So no actually that is incredibly false---the Attitude era is the reason the WWF beat the WCW in the first place. Further more, as said before, Russo wasn't hired until September of 1999, a good 18 monthes after WWF started routinely killing WCW in ratings.

NOW, the WWE has no competition and isn't doing NEARLY as well as they used to. Vince McMahon used to be a billionaire and after the XFL bombing and the lack of competition...less and less people watch wrestling now. TNA is around, sure...but it's no where as big as WCW was. Especially with Ted Turners budget.

So before you bash everything about the "80's", please think long and hard and do some research before you talk nonsense. The "80's" is what made what you're watching today possible.

And the stuff you're talking about that wouldn't be allowed in the 80's...I wouldn't want to see anyway. Like Fabulous Mullah or Maye Young giving birth to a rubber glove?? I mean these things are just pointless.

- Hogan

I didn't bash everything about the 80s first off, if you read my post I said quite clearly that I love and enjoy the 80s era of wrestling.

I've watched literally hundreds of hours upon hours of 80s wrestling, so please don't lecture me and tell me to "do some research" when I clearly have. I've been an avid fan and have literally hundreds of tapes full of 80s WWF, NWA, WCCW, CWF, AWA & Memphis Championship Wrestling. So I've done my research sir.

And finally, you misunderstood my original quote. I said that the stuff from the EIGHTIES wouldn't be allowed TODAY. As in, if they tried to give us the Gobbeldygooker or Akeem or any of the 80s cartoon gimmicks today, fans would revolt and boycott WWE and say "What the fuck is this shit?!". Times change. You took my quote exactly backwards.

I don't mean to seem offensive, but you just seem to be blatantly biased against anything that isn't old school and revolved around hacks like Hogan.

 

[Slyfox696]

First off, in terms of popularity and money, the Attitude Era blows the 80s and early 90s straight out of the water. Not even in the same league in terms of the money they made in the Attitude Era, so I mean hey, I'm not the only one there.

Depends on what time period you are referring to. Because the heyday of Hulkamania in the 80s fares very competently with the Attitude era, and vice versa when numbers (ratings, buys, money etc.) are adjusted, and looked at in relation to other things going on in the same time period. I've been in two long threads about this elsewhere. They were very comparable.

hacks like Hogan.

*bites tongue*

 

[pmike3]

This is a no brainer. Hogan is with out a doubt #1 here. But let's not for get Goldberg.

 

[Slyfox696]

This is a no brainer. Hogan is with out a doubt #1 here. But let's not for get Goldberg.

Could you please explain why it is that you think Hulk Hogan is without a doubt the number one answer? Or, for that matter, you think Goldberg is up there?

 

[NWO_Hogan]

The "attitude" era started pretty much around the time when Stone Cold Steve Austin lost a "Caribbean Strap Match" against Savio Vega and The Million Dollar Man had to leave the company. Thus having Stone Cold on his own to win the King of the Ring and starting the new era. I know how it goes. You don't have to write a story for me. As for "The Garbage Man Wrestler" and "Dink the Clown". They weren't even around in 1996 if I can recall. "Dink" the clown was around in the early 90's and vanished by late 94 or early 95 I believe.

As for "selling" more merchandise. Or the "attitude" era blowing away the "80's" era. I think that all depends on what you mean. The "80's" era gave birth to Wrestlemania 3 at the Pontiac Silverdome...the highest outdoor attendance of all time. Which, even after more visits, has never been close to duplicated. Now other than that, if you mean television ratings wise? Well there was no such thing as Monday Night Raw until about 93. Most of the "80's" superstars were already out or on their way out. Saturday Night Main Event and "Superstars" were the two main shows and they were both on the weekends when people are usually doing something else. Saturday Night Main Event was also on fairly late if I recall...and as someone stated before..."80's" wrestling was directed towards kids. So that was a terrible marketing mistake right there.

I wouldn't say everything I said was false in that paragraph above. From 96 - 98 WCW pretty much dominated the WWF. You claim that 97 - 2000 was the "attitude era". Vince Russo came into WCW and ruined everything around 99-2000. I was pretty much on the money. Plus, WCW was getting into trouble because the "good guys" pretty much NEVER won. The Bad Guys would just beat up on everyone forever...which for someone like me, was awesome. But to someone like you, probably complained.

Anyway, we're argueing over opinions. In my opinion, I thought the attitude era stunk. It killed Owen Hart, ran Bret Hart out of the company, sure it spawned The Rock and Stone Cold, but where are they now?? The longevity of those wrestlers didn't last. I would take a Hulk Hogan anyday over The Rock or Austin. Sure Stone Cold may have sold more t shirts one year than Hogan did. But Hogan wrestled in 4 different decades at the top of his game. Austin wrestled for 3...sure...but wasn't big til the end of the 2nd and then vanished at the beginning of the 3rd. The Rock lasted about 5 years before jumping ship.

To make a long story short. I loved the "80's" era of wrestling because of the characters they had. You love the "attitude era" and wrestling now because of the grappling and maneuvers and lack of characters they have. I understand.
End of conversation.

- Hogan

 

[mabuza]

Very few people fell inlove with wrestling and the WWE because of the Attitude era.The fact is,just like ECW's WWE debut,the Attitude attracted a crued audience who had no respect for the business.Real wrestling fans were born out of the Hogan,Savage,Hart etc eras of wrestling.Austin killed the sport in more was thwe'll ever truly know...

 

[X]

Very few people fell inlove with wrestling and the WWE because of the Attitude era.The fact is,just like ECW's WWE debut,the Attitude attracted a crued audience who had no respect for the business.Real wrestling fans were born out of the Hogan,Savage,Hart etc eras of wrestling.Austin killed the sport in more was thwe'll ever truly know...

Total bullshit. First of all, you're trying to tell me that people weren't falling in love with WWE because of the Attitude Era? Are you high? You have no right to speak for the MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of people who started watching wrestling in and because of the Attitude Era.

It attracted a crude audience? Why because it wasn't a majority of children anymore, and was now males age 18-34? Yes god forbid wrestling show some sexuality or violence, what are they thinking! Why can't we just have good old family programming like the Gobbeldygooker?!

And no respect for the business? Once again, thats total bullshit, and you have NO right to speak for MILLIONS of people. You're trying to tell me I don't respect the business? Because thats when I really fell in love with wrestling was the Attitude Era, me and millions of other people. Who gave you the right to judge them and act superior? Thats bullshit, Attitude era fans have just as much respect for the business as old school fans.

Then you go on to say "real wrestling fans were born out of Hogan, Savage, etc" once again judging millions of people you don't know. So I'm not a real wrestling fan? Don't you even DARE spew some bullshit like that, I'm about as real of a wrestling fan as it comes, I enjoy every promotion, every style, every aspect of the business and respect it immensely. Don't you fucking DARE tell me I'm not a "real wrestling fan".

And Austin killed the sport? You kidding me? Yeah he sure did, what with his all but saving the wrestling business from extinction, putting on more classic matches then I can even remember, and taking place in some of the greatest feuds of all time. Yeah what a jerk that guy was, what with his revolutionizing pro wrestling and saving the WWF from going bankrupt. How in gods name can you say he "killed" the sport of wrestling? Thats such a crock of bullshit.

I've never been more pissed off by a post in my time here on this board, you manage to insult millions of wrestling fans and one of the greatest legends wrestling has ever seen all in one post while also telling me that I'm not a "real" wrestling fan because I didn't start watching when that hack Hogan was on top of the WWF.

 

[NWO_Hogan]

Xfearbefore,

You're accusing this person of judging millions of fans...yet you've been bashing the previous era over and over again insinuating that nobody liked it but little kids. Wrestlemania 3 had the highest outdoor attendance record of all time. To this day never matched. Did those 93,173 people all get dropped off by their parents?!??? You're a hypocrite...accusing one person of judging an era and then doing the same yourself. I don't blame the WWE for getting with the times and following everyone else because everyone was getting edgier...but it doesn't mean I have to like it. I'd much rather have storylines with the Ultimate Warrior being locked in a snakepit or shoved into a coffin where he can't breathe, etc. than undertaker marrying stephanie mcmahon (as the headliner of monday night raw might i add). It's just not as appealing.

Now I don't agree too much with Austin ruining wrestling...other than that stupid "What" chant...that has, in fact, driven many people away from wrestling because it's so obnoxious. I know several people who can't go to events anymore because of it...it bothers them too much. So maybe in some aspect, he has...but he is one of the biggest stars to come out of the WWE...even if it was for a short period of time.

Nobody will ever live up to the longevity and stardom that Hulk Hogan has given to us. It's impossible. Hulk Hogan was the greatest Face AND Heel of all time in the history of wrestling. How many people can say that about themselves? Not many...IF any.

The attitude era was boring to me. It was a bunch of copy cats...copying WCW with trying to make 45 thousand stables. DX, Nation of Domination, DOA, Brood, etc. They were unoriginal and boring. DX was the more blatant rip off of the NWO and the ONLY reason it wasn't exploited...was because the guys IN the nwo were BEST FRIENDS with the guys in DX. Had they not been best friends...DX would have been exploited for the (less than) copy that it was...and fallen apart immediately.

WWE can't go back to the early 90's and late 80's style of wrestling. It's impossible...it would fall apart because of the new generation of watchers. I never said they should. All I said was that I missed it. I missed the good ol' wrestling days where it wasn't always about who's marrying stephanie mcmahon this week or "i wonder how many times john cena can beat edge".

Boring.

- Hogan

 

[X]

I am in no way being a hypocrite Hogan, and not once did I ever judge the fans of the 80s or 90s. I judged the WRESTLING of the 80s & early 90s, not the fans, ever. And I never insinuated that all fans were children, but the majority were and you can't deny that.

Nowhere have I onced passed judgment on FANS of wrestling---wrestling itself, yes, always, but never the fans. What mabuza did was say that anyone who started watching wrestling in the Attitude era isn't a real wrestling fan---thats bullshit and extremely insulting.

Not once did I criticize him for judging the Attitude era's WRESTLING...I criticized him for judging the FANS of that wrestling. Never the wrestling. Big, big difference.

So really, no, I'm not being hypocritical at all.

 

[Slyfox696]

Total bullshit. First of all, you're trying to tell me that people weren't falling in love with WWE because of the Attitude Era? Are you high? You have no right to speak for the MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of people who started watching wrestling in and because of the Attitude Era.

I think what he was trying to say (and I may be wrong) was that the fans the Attitude Era attracted weren't attracted to the wrestling product, but rather the shock TV, the mature themes, the gratuitous sexual content, and the "how can we top this" type attitude. Which, does bear some merit as the fans left when the two most entertaining stars, Austin and Rock, both left. Great wrestlers like Jericho, Benoit, Angle etc. were on top and people were tuning out. Thus, arguing that it was not wrestling that drew people in, but the storylines that did it does have a point.

It attracted a crude audience? Why because it wasn't a majority of children anymore, and was now males age 18-34?

I think he means it was a crude audience because they didn't care about wrestling, they just saw it as another television show. Once it "jumped the shark" so to speak, in terms of entertainment value, the fans left.

And Austin killed the sport? You kidding me? Yeah he sure did, what with his all but saving the wrestling business from extinction,

This isn't true. The wrestling business itself was doing just fine. WCW was at the pinnacle of its glory, ECW was rising fast. Now, he saved the WWF from extinction, no argument. But, I wouldn't go so far as say the wrestling business.

How in gods name can you say he "killed" the sport of wrestling? Thats such a crock of bullshit.

One theory would be that because of Austin in particular, lines between face and heel were completely erased (along with the NWO), wrestling shows were not focused on matches but rather on mature and shocking television, and now that the WWF used just about any and all creative measures on Austin, everything else will fail in comparison. Not my theory, but a credible one.

when that hack Hogan was on top of the WWF.

Bites tongue again.

 

[NWO_Hogan]

What did I tell all of you guys?!?

See. I never liked Chris Benoit and everyone always stuck up for him. He's a horrible human being. Anyone who murders his wife is sick as it is...but to sufficate your own 7 year old baby boy with a plastic bag. This guy was beyond sick. I don't even have a word to explain this coward right now.

I always said he was boring and I didn't like him. Maybe he was bored with himself too. What else could the motive be?!? What motive could there be to murder your own 7 year old boy?

I hated Chris Benoit before. You all yelled at me saying I was the jerk. I hate him even more now. And I'm sure you guys aren't to fond of him either.

And don't give me this "i dont like him as a person but he was a talented wrestler"....save that for someone else. OJ Simpson was a talented football player. Are you going to stick up for him??

Exactly. Just sickening.

 

[X]

What did I tell all of you guys?!?

See. I never liked Chris Benoit and everyone always stuck up for him. He's a horrible human being. Anyone who murders his wife is sick as it is...but to sufficate your own 7 year old baby boy with a plastic bag. This guy was beyond sick. I don't even have a word to explain this coward right now.

I always said he was boring and I didn't like him. Maybe he was bored with himself too. What else could the motive be?!? What motive could there be to murder your own 7 year old boy?

I hated Chris Benoit before. You all yelled at me saying I was the jerk. I hate him even more now. And I'm sure you guys aren't to fond of him either.

And don't give me this "i dont like him as a person but he was a talented wrestler"....save that for someone else. OJ Simpson was a talented football player. Are you going to stick up for him??

Exactly. Just sickening.

What the fucks your point? Nobody was ever defending Chris Benoit the person, we were defending Chris Benoit the wrestler, and as a wrestler I will continue to stick up for his talent and for the amazing things he did in the ring. He's obviously a despicable piece of shit for murdering his family and obviously he's burning in hell right now, does that change the fact that he's possibly the greatest wrestler of all time? No, it doesn't, just like OJ's murder doesn't change the fact that he was one of the greatest RBs of all time, just like Adolf Hitler helped invent the Volkswagen before starting the holocaust, whats your point? Horrible people do good things all the time, and vice versa. Stop acting like some moral judge. Obviously Chris Benoit the person was a piece of shit, I don't debate that, but Chris Benoit the wrestler? One of the most talented men to ever step into the ring; granted he didn't come out dressed as a clown so you probably wouldn't enjoy the 30 minute masterpieces he puts on, but everyone else will agree with me.