Winter is Coming - The Night is Dark and Full of Spoilers

[Miko]

Spoiler

It will definitely take a different kind of warfare to defeat the Others. My immediate reaction is that it would take a strong defensive position to defeat them but then there is no better defensive position than the Wall... I suspect that the men charged with squaring up to the Others will approach it in a similar way even if the Wall is brought down by the Horn of Joramun, relying on the defences of the likes of the Dreadfort or Moat Cailin (should it become that bad).

However, I think it will take someone clever enough (perhaps inspired by Samwell or Tyrion's knowledge) or perhaps foolhardy enough (Jaime?) to meet the Others in open battle allowing a repeat of the Field of Fire with the dragons sweeping fire across the wight armies.

Spoiler

Last ditch fighting is certainly in order, I wouldnt be surprised to see the Others push our hero's all the way back to Kings Landing, with a Dany who has somewhat reconciled (or at least come to a mutual agreement with Aegon) turning up with the Dragon's just in time to be too late from saving Jaime from a somewhat heroic death, Jaime will be leading a last gasp attempt to stop the Others, pretty much the only way he knows how. Tactics may or may not be out of the window by that point.

Alright, it wont be quite that simple, humans will be their own worst enemy for much of the war, the Targareans fighting, nobody allying with the Boltons or Stannis on account of them being massive pricks.

Plus Eddard Starks return as the headless leader of the Others, who will end up fighting against his Wolf headed corpse of a son, Wolf Head will ally with the Humans, and probably shake hands with the one remaining hand Jaime Lannister has left.

 

[Барбоса]

Spoiler

Plus Eddard Starks return as the headless leader of the Others, who will end up fighting against his Wolf headed corpse of a son, Wolf Head will ally with the Humans, and probably shake hands with the one remaining hand Jaime Lannister has left.

Spoiler

Would be doing really well for Eddard to return considering his bones are somewhere near Moat Cailin.

It just dawned on me who else could find out who Jon Snow's mother and father really are aside from Howland Reed - Bran. He sees and hears his father praying before the Heart Tree in the godswood in Winterfell while learning to be a greenseer. He could easily hear him praying about Jon's parentage.

 

[Miko]

Spoiler

Would be doing really well for Eddard to return considering his bones are somewhere near Moat Cailin.

It just dawned on me who else could find out who Jon Snow's mother and father really are aside from Howland Reed - Bran. He sees and hears his father praying before the Heart Tree in the godswood in Winterfell while learning to be a greenseer. He could easily hear him praying about Jon's parentage.

Spoiler

Hmm, yes that'd make sense, I am assuming that the God's themselves show Bran what they want him to see, that sort of thing, so should it become necessary (as in their best interests and probably nobody else's) for him to know, they'd show him that. It'd also completely eliminate the need for the Reed Characters if they went that route, and this is looking increasingly likely due to them still not having turned up in the series and Bran having Jorgen's green dream about the flood of the sea in Winterfell, that gives them a very small gap to turn up between now and Theon invading, on a side note, still no Ramsey either.

It'd be a little dissapointing though, finding out like that instead of a big Howland Reed reveal, its safe to say that the Tower Of Joy is a very interesting things about ASOIAF. Although maybe it is better that everything save the outcome (character deaths and Jon Snow's birth) remains a mystery. Maybe Howland Reed is never to appear.

 

[Барбоса]

Spoiler

Hmm, yes that'd make sense, I am assuming that the God's themselves show Bran what they want him to see, that sort of thing, so should it become necessary (as in their best interests and probably nobody else's) for him to know, they'd show him that. It'd also completely eliminate the need for the Reed Characters if they went that route, and this is looking increasingly likely due to them still not having turned up in the series and Bran having Jorgen's green dream about the flood of the sea in Winterfell, that gives them a very small gap to turn up between now and Theon invading, on a side note, still no Ramsey either.

It'd be a little dissapointing though, finding out like that instead of a big Howland Reed reveal, its safe to say that the Tower Of Joy is a very interesting things about ASOIAF. Although maybe it is better that everything save the outcome (character deaths and Jon Snow's birth) remains a mystery. Maybe Howland Reed is never to appear.

Spoiler

I suppose one of the problems with Howland Reed is that he seems to have no intention of leaving the Neck. If he has not done so yet with Ironborn and other enemies on his doorstep, I can not see much else to bring him out. Maybe Jon Snow will end up in the marshes of the Neck during the desperate defence against the Others and to add a legitimacy to a potential attempt at power...

 

[Dave]

Having watched the latest episode from Season 2, I must say that I am intrigued by the way everything is panning out. My one "concern", if you can call it that, is that things are becoming a little too mystical for my tastes. I mean, I enjoyed the show immensely over the last few days when I started at the beginning and watched all of the episodes so far. However, with the exception of the dragons, nothing too mystical has happened. Now we have 3 dragons hatched, a Priestess that is immune to poison and a man made entirely of smoke killing off future kings.

I don't know what I had in mind for this show but it seems like a lot to take in right away. There was no real build up to this mystical side of Game Of Thrones and it seems to have all come at once. I have no idea, unlike some of you guys, what the future holds for all of the characters but I'm hoping that most of the story plays out in the realm of reality and not magic. For me, it just comes across as cheating. That doesn't seem like the right word but it's as close as I'll likely come.

The story with the Greyjoy's is pissing me off too. But that's another story for another time.

 

[Coco]

White Walkers and Direwolfs were mucking about in the first season. So I'm not sure why this latest magic has been such a shock for some people.

Also, describing Renly as a "future king" is mighty generous of you.

 

[Dave]

Perhaps generous but had he defeated Stannis, who would have stood in his way?

 

[Coco]

He wasn't going anywhere quick, even with his legions of soldiers. He appeared satisfied to be a king, not the king, so long as he got to enjoy the trappings that go with some degree of power. He really hadn't set himself on a path where anyone would need to stand in the way. Stannis, on the other hand, seems happy to march towards his rightful throne at all costs.

 

[Dave]

He wasn't going anywhere quick, even with his legions of soldiers. He appeared satisfied to be a king, not the king, so long as he got to enjoy the trappings that go with some degree of power. He really hadn't set himself on a path where anyone would need to stand in the way. Stannis, on the other hand, seems happy to march towards his rightful throne at all costs.

So you agree that he was a king?

But yes, I suppose you are right. I would have been very interested to see what his alliance with the men of the North would have panned out like, however, An alliance with the North may have given him the need and desire to march on Kingslanding. Then again, we'll never know.

 

[Барбоса]

Perhaps generous but had he defeated Stannis, who would have stood in his way?

 

[Coco]

I don't think giving Robb Stark those numbers when he's already shown a massive strategic advantage over the Lannisters would have made that war any less one-sided or any more interesting.

Should be interesting to see how the Starks handle Stannis now. Is he friend or foe? Does Robb endorse Stannis' claim to the Iron Throne? He certainly has no interest in ruling.

 

[Coco]

You might be best to hoke out Coco's non spoiler thread.

Oh, pwetty pwease?

 

[Барбоса]

He wasn't going anywhere quick, even with his legions of soldiers. He appeared satisfied to be a king, not the king, so long as he got to enjoy the trappings that go with some degree of power. He really hadn't set himself on a path where anyone would need to stand in the way. Stannis, on the other hand, seems happy to march towards his rightful throne at all costs.

This is how I view Renly too. You could argue that he recognised how unpopular the Lannisters are across much of Westeros and in Kings Landing in particular, seen with the preacher railing against Joffery and Tyrion in the latest episode. Almost like he was hoping to win the Iron Throne without a fight.

 

[Dave]

This is how I view Renly too. You could argue that he recognised how unpopular the Lannisters are across much of Westeros and in Kings Landing in particular, seen with the preacher railing against Joffery and Tyrion in the latest episode. Almost like he was hoping to win the Iron Throne without a fight.

Agreed. I would have very much liked to have seen how a fight with Stannis would have gone though. That battle was only a night away and it was taken away from the viewer. Perhaps a win over Stannis would have given Renly the determination and confidence to march on King's Landing. Then again, maybe it wouldn't. I kind of feel a little robbed with that storyline. I would have loved to have who would have come out on top in the battle of Stannis/Renly and Renly/Joffrey (should that have happened).

That said, I seem to recall Renly saying to his bannermen that it was his intention to go to war with King's Landing and Joffrey. I just wonder how long they would have stuck around if he was showing no interest of making good on those claims?

 

[Miko]

Spoiler

I suppose one of the problems with Howland Reed is that he seems to have no intention of leaving the Neck. If he has not done so yet with Ironborn and other enemies on his doorstep, I can not see much else to bring him out. Maybe Jon Snow will end up in the marshes of the Neck during the desperate defence against the Others and to add a legitimacy to a potential attempt at power...

Spoiler

Or he could be physically unable to leave, for one reason or another

So you agree that he was a king?

Well, he had an army, a make-shift Throne, loyal Bannermen, a Kingsguard even, a Queen and a lover, and enough idiots willing to actually call him King. What more do you really need to be a King?

 

[Барбоса]

Just finished A Dance With Dragons

Spoiler

- poor Kevan. Making all the right moves in King's Landing and so he had to be offed. At least now Cersei might be able to get back in the driving seat of power so she can spectacularly crash it once again. Oh, and Kevan is right to fear Randyll Tarly.

- poor Jon Snow. Making all the right moves in the North and so he had to be offed (not really, he ain't dead - could Melisandre bring him back to life in the same way that Thoros of Myr did for Beric Dondarion and Catelyn?).

- poor Quentyn Martell. Making all the right moves in Mereen and so he had to be offed. Well, actually no. He was an idiot that deserved to be roasted. Perhaps it was his lingering dragon's blood of his part-Targaryen ancestry that allowed him to last three days as a burnt crisp... it served him well...

- Tormund Giantsbane should be a welcome relief from the lack of Greatjon Umber post-Red Wedding.

- those who are just watching the show might think that there is no way to surpass the sheer cuntery of Joffery or even Theon but wait until they get a view of Ramsay Snow. If they bring even half of what he does in the books to the screen, it will be gruesome. Easily the worst that Westeros has to offer. Oh, and he is lying about having defeated and killed Stannis.

- the shit is about to hit the fan in the North - not just the Boltons against Stannis or the Night's Wildling Watch against the Others and their hordes of wights, but also with the Northern camp itself - Boltons, Karstarks and Freys vs Manderlys, Glovers and Umbers.

- Jamie solved all the remaining problems of the War of Five Kings with a combination of pinache, compromise and harsh but fair negotiations. Who knew he had it in him? Well, nearly all of the problems... whether he knows it or not Brienne is taking him to see the last remaining foe - the Brotherhood Without Banners and their zombie leader.

- the results of the inevitable Battle of Slaver's Bay are already in and they do not look good for the Yunkai, their sellswords, the Sons of the Harpy and their Qartheen and Volantene allies. They might be able to make some kind of inroads against the defences of Mereen but with Barristan Selmy, the Shavepate, the Braven Beasts, the freedmen, and the Unsullied on the inside, Tyrion Lannister orchestrating the second defection of the Second Sons, Sers Archibald Yronwood and Gerris Drinkwater attempting to do the same with the Tattered Prince and his Windblown and the Pale Mare ripping through them on the outside and the imminent arrival of Victarion Greyjoy and his Ironborn fleet, they are going to end up squashed against the walls of Mereen.

- And that is before even taking into account what might happen between Daenerys and Khal Jhaqo. The presence of Drogon by her side could see a khalasaar taking the Yunkai army in the flank (or even marching directly against Yunkai itself). Oh, and let's not forget the most ridiculoulsy wild cards in Drogon himself and his two brooding brothers Rhaegal and Viserion in Mereen...

 

[Miko]

Just finished A Dance With Dragons

Spoiler

- poor Jon Snow. Making all the right moves in the North and so he had to be offed (not really, he ain't dead - could Melisandre bring him back to life in the same way that Thoros of Myr did for Beric Dondarion and Catelyn?).

Spoiler

Most likely alive, just about though, George seems to have shied away from killing the seriously major characters since old Neddard, even bringing one of them back.

Spoiler

- those who are just watching the show might think that there is no way to surpass the sheer cuntery of Joffery or even Theon but wait until they get a view of Ramsay Snow. If they bring even half of what he does in the books to the screen, it will be gruesome. Easily the worst that Westeros has to offer. Oh, and he is lying about having defeated and killed Stannis.

Spoiler

I really, really hope so. Such an evil little character is Ramsey. It was kind of difficult not alluding to it in our previous conversations.

Spoiler

- Jamie solved all the remaining problems of the War of Five Kings with a combination of pinache, compromise and harsh but fair negotiations. Who knew he had it in him? Well, nearly all of the problems... whether he knows it or not Brienne is taking him to see the last remaining foe - the Brotherhood Without Banners and their zombie leader.

Spoiler

I genuinely think this is either the end of Jaime, or more likely the end of Stoneheart, although likely not permanently, George has got form after all. Every time Berric died he lost a bit more of himself, although his intentions were honourable and while he was kind of a sad rag man by the end, he didnt corrupt at all. Stoneheart, if she die's and comes back again, I think, could end up as one of the most evil characters in the whole series, basically just an avatar for revenge.

 

[Барбоса]

Spoiler

So my mum is reading ASOIAF and has just reached the Red Wedding. I told her that it was just another example of someone who shows too many signs of being a good king/leader and therefore has to be eliminated.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

I'm a bit behind, but just finished A Clash of Kings this afternoon and I have to say, Bran's story with Jojen and Meera is probably the most intriguing story-arc going into A Storm of Swords. Between the book and tv series, I'm not sure which version of Daenarys' story I preferred; the book was concise and didn't really meander but seemed quite short, while the tv series brought up more of her passion for her dragons and a Drogo appearance.

 

[Барбоса]

I'm a bit behind, but just finished A Clash of Kings this afternoon and I have to say, Bran's story with Jojen and Meera is probably the most intriguing story-arc going into A Storm of Swords. Between the book and tv series, I'm not sure which version of Daenarys' story I preferred; the book was concise and didn't really meander but seemed quite short, while the tv series brought up more of her passion for her dragons and a Drogo appearance.

Strange you should say that for at that point, I found both Bran and Daenerys to be easily the worst parts of the story.

Daenerys' role in ACoK is diabolically boring; so much so that the TV writers had to invent the stealing of the dragons by Pyat Pree, Xaro and the Undying.

Bran's story is dreadfully dull for at least two books after they leave the smoking ruin of Winterfell.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

Daenerys' role in ACoK is diabolically boring; so much so that the TV writers had to invent the stealing of the dragons by Pyat Pree, Xaro and the Undying.

Aye I was a bit surprised when she got to the house of the undying earlier on in the book, didn't lock Xaro up and was cruising about with Drogon most of the time. I guess with the dragons still being infants there's only so much they can really do with her.

Bran's story is dreadfully dull for at least two books after they leave the smoking ruin of Winterfell.

Fuck I was hoping his story would pick up somewhat due to his 3rd eye jazz. The warg power might be a difficult thing to translate to the small-screen I guess, as in the book there's the obvious commentary from Bran (or Jon) but on-screen essentially the camera would be from the animal's POV without as much connection.


It was weird that throughout the book, we read quite a bit about Robb's conquests from differing points of view, but never from his. Some of Catelyn's chapters were a bit laborious to get through at times yet I liked her and Brienne's interaction as it allowed Catelyn to vent her concerns from a mother/daughter's stance.

Oh and Theon can suck a fuck.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

So...

Spoiler

I'm a chapter past Robb and Catelyn getting arrow fucked at The Twins. I figured something would happen with Frey, but holy shit, the decimation of the Northern army has me completely lost with what could happen next.
I hope that Snow was named Robb's heir, though without Robb to speak with the Night's Watch I don't know if that will go ahead. Sansa and Tyrion's wedding was completely out of the blue but I think something good may come of it.

 

[Coco]

Dany in ACOK - Not as boring as I'd been led to believe. Fuck you all.

I find Catelyn tedious as fuck at times, but she's so close to the action that it's hard for me to groan too loudly when I see her chapters come up.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

Aye, Dany's continuous development is at times a bit slow, but it has been a slow and steady character ark that gets stronger as you go through the book(s).

Catelyn's chapters do seem to be the most long-winded and for a while rival Sansa's in terms of 'eugh, her again' but both soon pick up. It's quite good to read things from a mother's point of view, especially when she's with Robb.

How far through ACOK are you at the moment? Or you finished it?

 

[Coco]

Just about to start Blackwater. If I weren't sick as fuck at the moment, I'd probably be through it at the end of the day.

I don't groan at Sansa chapters. Once again, that probably has a lot to do with her proximity to the action. But the shit with Catelyn's father is just fucking unbearable. I'd wish the cunt dead if it wouldn't just be another thing for Catelyn to beat herself up about.