Winter is Coming - The Night is Dark and Full of Spoilers

[Барбоса]

In the books, there are several of my favourites still standing, apart from the Blackfish - such as Bronn of the Blackwater and Davos Seaworth even the Kingslayer but if we are talking more minor characters - Greatjon Umber is still alive, although imprisoned at the Twins, andI have a soft spot for Areo Hotah. The combination of what I think is a great name and his continued stoicism in the face of the plotting going on around him in the court of Sunspear makes for a great POV character

 

[Remy LaCroix]

I came for Bill Miller and stayed for Lily Allen's brother.

Who is Yoren again?

 

[Барбоса]

I came for Bill Miller and stayed for Lily Allen's brother.

Who is Yoren again?

Yoren is the man of the Night's Watch that saves Ayra Stark from the aftermath of Lord Eddard's failed coup and beheading.

 

[Remy LaCroix]

Ah yes I remember him now. Watched the latest episode today and I closed my eyes when he died. =(

 

[Барбоса]

http://viewers-guide.hbo.com/game-of-thrones/season2/#!/map/

This provides the best map I have seen so far for the world of Westeros and especially the sheer size of Essos. Even the mysterious land of Sothoros can be seen in the bottom right

 

[Барбоса]

In a show/book series full of great mottos and sayings, I perhaps have a new favourite

"Autumn kisses you: Winter fucks you hard" - Big Bucket of House Wull

 

[Tiger Chaos Theory]

In the books, there are several of my favourites still standing, apart from the Blackfish - such as Bronn of the Blackwater and Davos Seaworth even the Kingslayer but if we are talking more minor characters - Greatjon Umber is still alive, although imprisoned at the Twins, andI have a soft spot for Areo Hotah. The combination of what I think is a great name and his continued stoicism in the face of the plotting going on around him in the court of Sunspear makes for a great POV character

Jaime doesn't die? Unless you mean another king slayer.

 

[Барбоса]

Sorry, Tiger but there are spoilers in this thread.

 

[Miko]

In the books, there are several of my favourites still standing, apart from the Blackfish - such as Bronn of the Blackwater and Davos Seaworth even the Kingslayer but if we are talking more minor characters - Greatjon Umber is still alive, although imprisoned at the Twins, andI have a soft spot for Areo Hotah. The combination of what I think is a great name and his continued stoicism in the face of the plotting going on around him in the court of Sunspear makes for a great POV character

Arys Oakheart seemed like such a nice man though agreed on Jaime anyway, he's every bit as funny as his brother.

Hows progress on Dance?

 

[Барбоса]

Arys Oakheart seemed like such a nice man though

I also love Areo's comments about Balon Swann and how he would be a much more formidable foe than Oakheart

agreed on Jaime anyway, he's every bit as funny as his brother.

Jaime is perhaps the character that receives the most development throughout the course of the books. Everyone else stays pretty much the same (with the odd exception) but Jaime is changed by his experiences in the Riverlands, leaving part of the old Jaime behind...

Hows progress on Dance?

Just finished the first couple of chapters of the second half.

 

[Tiger Chaos Theory]

Hmmm, I had no idea Dragonstone was so close to King's Landing.

Good to hear Davos lives though, I imagine the same can't be said for his sons.

 

[Miko]

Jaime is perhaps the character that receives the most development throughout the course of the books. Everyone else stays pretty much the same (with the odd exception) but Jaime is changed by his experiences in the Riverlands, leaving part of the old Jaime behind...

Indeed, he changes, whereas the other characters we just learn more about over time, their motives and that, characters made to look like scum from the Stark point of view (outside of Roose, young Ramsey and Gregor anyway) arent always that bad. Even Stannis (who I like, more because he drives the story more than any other character, than how he is as a person) can claim to have been somewhat manipulated. They just live in cruel times. Makes you wonder just how evil the Others are going to turn out to be, not rainbows and sunshine certainly, but not totally evil I reckon.

As an example of the characters I generally lean toward, instead of the likes of Areo Hotah and even Tyrion. Oberyn Martell for one, Yoren is the other and apart from that there is only one other character that I genuinely like enough to consider a real favourite.

Just finished the first couple of chapters of the second half.

Ah alright, I'll watch my words.

 

[Барбоса]

Even Stannis (who I like, more because he drives the story more than any other character, than how he is as a person) can claim to have been somewhat manipulated.

There is something about Stannis. I almost expect him to turn out to be the hero of the whole thing. He clearly does not believe in the Lord of Light and must therefore see Melisandre as a means to an ends.

I can see him essentially becoming the Stark side of things (or at least, the anti-Lannister) after he deals with the Boltons. He already has the Glovers, the hill tribes and support at the Wall; victory at Winterfell would destroy the Bolton hold on the north with the Umbers, Manderleys and others throwing their lot in with him.

However, even if/when he takes his host south, I do not think that he will end up on the Iron Throne.

Makes you wonder just how evil the Others are going to turn out to be, not rainbows and sunshine certainly, but not totally evil I reckon.

Oh, I think the Others will turn out to be the worst of the worst. A true "Big Bad" with an army of wights that will brush aside the Night's Watch and their Wildling allies and any other army that moves against them.

There will be only one small group that can defeat them and their names are Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal - but whose command they will be under, I do not know. Daenerys? Aegon VI? Crow's Eye? Victarion? Tyrion? Who knows...

Oberyn Martell

His rapid and gruesome end saddened me. I would have liked to see more of the Red Viper.

Oberyn Martell for one, Yoren is the other and apart from that there is only one other character that I genuinely like enough to consider a real favourite.

Pray tell or is it a spoiler?

 

[Miko]

There is something about Stannis. I almost expect him to turn out to be the hero of the whole thing. He clearly does not believe in the Lord of Light and must therefore see Melisandre as a means to an ends.

I can see him essentially becoming the Stark side of things (or at least, the anti-Lannister) after he deals with the Boltons. He already has the Glovers, the hill tribes and support at the Wall; victory at Winterfell would destroy the Bolton hold on the north with the Umbers, Manderleys and others throwing their lot in with him.

However, even if/when he takes his host south, I do not think that he will end up on the Iron Throne.

It's a strange one isnt it. Just what role does Stannis play? The most exciting character in that respect. When it comes to his more human aspect, one thing I think about him, is that those few who are loyal to him, him and not Rhlorr (sp?) or just loyal to the name Baratheon, are truly loyal, often beyond the call of duty. He's hard work, but some people seem to respond.

Oh, I think the Others will turn out to be the worst of the worst. A true "Big Bad" with an army of wights that will brush aside the Night's Watch and their Wildling allies and any other army that moves against them.

It seems too black and white to me, after all, its worth noting that their supposed mortal enemy is the kind of God that demands blood sacrifices. The books also seem to go to lengths to show what savages Humans themselves can be, to each other or just about anything else. The bad guys certainly, possibly evil, I just think there is more to it.

There will be only one small group that can defeat them and their names are Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal - but whose command they will be under, I do not know. Daenerys? Aegon VI? Crow's Eye? Victarion? Tyrion? Who knows...

I file this under the "what role will they play?" category, absolutely no idea at the moment. Three heads and all that.

His rapid and gruesome end saddened me. I would have liked to see more of the Red Viper.

Agreed, although I'd rather die like Oberyn than like his opponent did.

Pray tell or is it a spoiler?

My mistake, that's four characters including the Blackfish. So him, Yoren and Oberyn. But yes, the last one is certainly a spoiler.

 

[Барбоса]

It's a strange one isnt it. Just what role does Stannis play? The most exciting character in that respect. When it comes to his more human aspect, one thing I think about him, is that those few who are loyal to him, him and not Rhlorr (sp?) or just loyal to the name Baratheon, are truly loyal, often beyond the call of duty. He's hard work, but some people seem to respond.

He certainly can inspire loyalty when he wants to - see Davos Seaworth, his saving of the Night's Watch and now his march to Deepwood Motte and then to Winterfell to save "Ned's girl." While Stannis himself is a cunt, he is a good military leader and has proven himself able to recognise terrible council and willing to listen to harsh truths and wise council from the likes of Davos and Lord Snow.

It seems too black and white to me, after all, its worth noting that their supposed mortal enemy is the kind of God that demands blood sacrifices. The books also seem to go to lengths to show what savages Humans themselves can be, to each other or just about anything else. The bad guys certainly, possibly evil, I just think there is more to it.

As it is getting so close to the end of the story, I think that Martin will almost be forced to have the Others as the ultimate enemy that will eventually force those fighting for the Iron Throne - Stannis, Cersei, Daenerys, Aegon and whoever else - to unite against them.

I file this under the "what role will they play?" category, absolutely no idea at the moment. Three heads and all that.

I am sticking with the dragons playing a major role in the defeat of the Others

My mistake, that's four characters including the Blackfish. So him, Yoren and Oberyn. But yes, the last one is certainly a spoiler.

I doubt there are any more new characters after the revelation of who Young Griff is, although I could be wrong.

 

[Miko]

As it is getting so close to the end of the story, I think that Martin will almost be forced to have the Others as the ultimate enemy that will eventually force those fighting for the Iron Throne - Stannis, Cersei, Daenerys, Aegon and whoever else - to unite against them.

True, I guess at this point it'd be kind of difficult to explain and simply pass off. Stannis I guess is the "Mummers Dragon." Two of the three heads are fairly certain while the third is a pretty easy guess at this point, so I'd imagine that you are almost entirely right but I still sort of hold back on the true motives of the Others.

I doubt there are any more new characters after the revelation of who Young Griff is, although I could be wrong.

Fuck my muddled brain, that part has already happened? I dunno, I forget the order of things. In that case, yup, Jon Connington ranks up there as number 4.

 

[Барбоса]

True, I guess at this point it'd be kind of difficult to explain and simply pass off. Stannis I guess is the "Mummers Dragon." Two of the three heads are fairly certain while the third is a pretty easy guess at this point, so I'd imagine that you are almost entirely right but I still sort of hold back on the true motives of the Others.

Out of interest who do you think the three heads of the dragon are?

I think they are Daenerys, Aegon and...

Spoiler

Jon Snow, who I believe to be the son of Rhaegar Targaryen

Fuck my muddled brain, that part has already happened? I dunno, I forget the order of things. In that case, yup, Jon Connington ranks up there as number 4.

Yeah, the identities of Griff and Young Griff are revealled about half way through ADWD: Dreams and Dust.

There are a couple more reveals of the true origins of characters still to go - Coldhands, the Three-Eyed Crow, Pate (although I think all of their identities are straightforward)

Spoiler

Coldhands - Benjen Stark
Three-Eyed Crow - Brynden 'Bloodraven' Rivers
Pate - the Faceless Man also known as Jaqen H'ghar

There are plenty of other things that seem to be straightforward too but I would be wary of them as Martin has shown himself unwilling to follow the straight and narrow.

 

[Miko]

Out of interest who do you think the three heads of the dragon are?

I think they are Daenerys,

Yup

Aegon and...

Yup

Spoiler

Jon Snow, who I believe to be the son of Rhaegar Targaryen

Spoiler

Most likely, although part of me is leaning toward Tyrion Lannister, who I think is possibly the son of Aeris Targaryen

Yeah, the identities of Griff and Young Griff are revealled about half way through ADWD: Dreams and Dust.

There are a couple more reveals of the true origins of characters still to go - Coldhands, the Three-Eyed Crow, Pate (although I think all of their identities are straightforward)

Spoiler

Coldhands - Benjen Stark
Three-Eyed Crow - Brynden 'Bloodraven' Rivers
Pate - the Faceless Man also known as Jaqen H'ghar

There are plenty of other things that seem to be straightforward too but I would be wary of them as Martin has shown himself unwilling to follow the straight and narrow.

The second one in spoilers is interesting, as I cant remember just how much backstory is given in ASOIAF about that. Have you read the Dunc and Egg stories?

 

[Барбоса]

Spoiler

Most likely, although part of me is leaning toward Tyrion Lannister, who I think is possibly the son of Aeris Targaryen

An interesting suggestion.

Spoiler

I have actually just read the chapter where Barristan Selmy tells Daenerys about how Aerys wanted Joanna Lannister before she married Tywin. I suppose it could be possible considering Tyrion was born during the period when Tywin was serving as Aerys' Hand of the King.

I find Jon Snow more likely. For example, why were three of the Kingsguard, Gerold Hightower, Arthur Dayne and Oswald Whent at the Tower of Joy if not protecting the unborn/soon to be born offspring of the Heir Apparent, Rhaegar Targaryen?

I keep waiting for Howland Reed to appear to reveal the truth about the promise Lyanna extracted from Eddard.

The second one in spoilers is interesting, as I cant remember just how much backstory is given in ASOIAF about that.

Spoiler

The Three-Eyed Crow says himself that he was a lord called Brynden. He was also once part of the Night's Watch. The Crow is described as having "1000 eyes and 1", which is the name of a song written about Brynden Rivers.

He also say that he had a brother he loved, a brother he hated and a woman he desired - Brynden Rivers was one of the Great Bastard offspring of Aegon IV; the brother he loved could be Daemon Blackfrye but is more likely Daeron II; the brother he hated is probably Aegor "Bittersteel" Rivers who not only cost him his eye during the Blackfrye Rebellion but also challenged him for the woman he desired - their half-sister Shiera Seastar.

Bran says that the crow had white skin and hair and one red eye - Rivers was an albino and lost an eye in battle.

Have you read the Dunc and Egg stories?

I have read part of them.

 

[Miko]

An interesting suggestion.

Spoiler

I have actually just read the chapter where Barristan Selmy tells Daenerys about how Aerys wanted Joanna Lannister before she married Tywin. I suppose it could be possible considering Tyrion was born during the period when Tywin was serving as Aerys' Hand of the King.

I find Jon Snow more likely. For example, why were three of the Kingsguard, Gerold Hightower, Arthur Dayne and Oswald Whent at the Tower of Joy if not protecting the unborn/soon to be born offspring of the Heir Apparent, Rhaegar Targaryen?

I keep waiting for Howland Reed to appear to reveal the truth about the promise Lyanna extracted from Eddard.

Spoiler

Yeah, Jon's the most likely choice, which is what makes me think it could be Tyrion. I do agree that Jon is Rhaegar Targaryean's kid though, otherwise 8 men died for nothing, although that wouldnt be the first time.

I also think that the reason Sean Bean is credited with an appearance in this season's GOT is because we'll have a flashback of him talking to Bran about Howland Reed when the Reed's turn up (if they havent already, missed Ep 2), which could hopefully provide some long awaited insight into The Tower Of Joy from the television series perspective. As well as mention of Arthur Dayne being a serious arse kicker. Although judging by the fact that Eddard stood toe to toe with Jaime Lannister in the series when its made quite clear in the books that Jaime would probably carve him up for fun, most likely Dayne will be downplayed.

Spoiler

The Three-Eyed Crow says himself that he was a lord called Brynden. He was also once part of the Night's Watch. The Crow is described as having "1000 eyes and 1", which is the name of a song written about Brynden Rivers.

He also say that he had a brother he loved, a brother he hated and a woman he desired - Brynden Rivers was one of the Great Bastard offspring of Aegon IV; the brother he loved could be Daemon Blackfrye but is more likely Daeron II; the brother he hated is probably Aegor "Bittersteel" Rivers who not only cost him his eye during the Blackfrye Rebellion but also challenged him for the woman he desired - their half-sister Shiera Seastar.

Bran says that the crow had white skin and hair and one red eye - Rivers was an albino and lost an eye in battle.

Spoiler

Ah thats right, I remember now, I just wasnt too sure if Blood Raven's story was told in any detail in TSOIAF series and if you had to have read Dunc and Egg to make the connection.

I have read part of them.

Good books. How about Fevre Dream?

As a side note, I really love the new additions in the series, the conversations between Robert and Cersie where awesome, the whole "who is mightier, five or one?" speech Robert gave to her was brilliant, as well as foreshadowing the eventual problem Westeros will face should the Others invade. Also, Robert mocking Jaime for killing the former King, and Jaime calmly telling Robert what Aerys' last words were, drumming it into Robert that Aerys had to be killed by somebody. Add in Yoren's speech about his brother, and we now know why Arya says the names.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

Talking of Arya, am I wrong to hold on to the hope that Syrio is still alive? It didn't look good for him as Arya ran away, but there were several steel swords lying about for him to use. He was one of my favourite mentoring characters from the first series.

 

[Барбоса]

Spoiler

Yeah, Jon's the most likely choice, which is what makes me think it could be Tyrion. I do agree that Jon is Rhaegar Targaryean's kid though, otherwise 8 men died for nothing, although that wouldnt be the first time.

I also think that the reason Sean Bean is credited with an appearance in this season's GOT is because we'll have a flashback of him talking to Bran about Howland Reed when the Reed's turn up (if they havent already, missed Ep 2), which could hopefully provide some long awaited insight into The Tower Of Joy from the television series perspective. As well as mention of Arthur Dayne being a serious arse kicker. Although judging by the fact that Eddard stood toe to toe with Jaime Lannister in the series when its made quite clear in the books that Jaime would probably carve him up for fun, most likely Dayne will be downplayed.

Spoiler

I have thought the same of Bean's supposed appearance in Season 2. Also as Bran comes to use his greenseer powers with the Three-Eyed Crow, he sees his father through the eyes of Winterfell's weirwood so there could be future scenes for Bean if he wants them - he does seem to have enjoyed GoT.

No Reeds yet.

I doubt that there will be all that much about the Tower of Joy or the skills of the Sword of the Morning.

Spoiler

Ah thats right, I remember now, I just wasnt too sure if Blood Raven's story was told in any detail in TSOIAF series and if you had to have read Dunc and Egg to make the connection.

Spoiler

Not entirely sure where the story of Bloodraven is told. I think the Three-Eyed Crow only gives the skeleton of the story, not explaining who Brynden Rivers was.

Good books. How about Fevre Dream?

Waiting to get the Dunk and Egg stories in the series that is supposedly being edited together by Martin at the moment along with a fourth novella on them.

As a side note, I really love the new additions in the series, the conversations between Robert and Cersie where awesome, the whole "who is mightier, five or one?" speech Robert gave to her was brilliant, as well as foreshadowing the eventual problem Westeros will face should the Others invade. Also, Robert mocking Jaime for killing the former King, and Jaime calmly telling Robert what Aerys' last words were, drumming it into Robert that Aerys had to be killed by somebody. Add in Yoren's speech about his brother, and we now know why Arya says the names.

Yeah, some of those extra scenes are great - the five or one was excellent. The conversation between Robert, Jaime and Barristan about their first kills was good too.

Jaime talking about what Aerys had planned to do to King's Landing is important not just to the Kingslayer's character but also in highlighting what at times can be the rather ridiculous ideas of loyalty. There are people who know what Aerys was like and what he was doing to innocent men but still castigate Jaime for doing something that should have been done years earlier. If Rhaegar was such a great and beloved prince, why didn't he have his father replaced? The fact that he didn't is why I believe that out of all of the candidates, Stannis is the only true king.

Another conversation I really liked, even if it was used more to set up a later killing, was Jory Cassell and the Kingslayer, proving that Jaime is far from a meathead - "Theon? He's a good lad."

"I doubt it."

Talking of Arya, am I wrong to hold on to the hope that Syrio is still alive? It didn't look good for him as Arya ran away, but there were several steel swords lying about for him to use. He was one of my favourite mentoring characters from the first series.

While I would not put it passed Martin to have Syrio survive, the fact that the knight who was facing him was Ser Meryn Trant, a member of the Kingsguard who is still alive, makes it very unlikely that the First Sword of Braavos is also still alive.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

Is Ser Trant the guy whose been tracking down John Arryn's bastard? The guy with the bull helmet? Sorry, I'm crap at remembering names.

 

[Барбоса]

Is Ser Trant the guy whose been tracking down John Arryn's bastard? The guy with the bull helmet? Sorry, I'm crap at remembering names.

The guy with the bull helmet is Gendry and he is not Jon Arryn's bastard but Robert Baratheon's bastard.

Janos Slynt was charged with finding all the bastards of Robert by Joffery and before he himself was removed by Tyrion to the Wall, he found out that Gendry was going north with the Night's Watch. Slynt sends a few of his Gold Cloaks to get/kill Gendry but Yoren does not give him up. Those Gold Cloaks are then reinforced by Amory Lorch, one of the raiders charged by Tywin Lannister along with Ser Gregor Clegane to "set the Riverlands on fire from God's Eye to the Red Fork" - it is actually supposed to be while they are near the God's Eye that Yoren and his recruits are attacked.

Ser Merryn is the member of the Kingsguard who does a lot of Joffery's dirty work, including being the one that hits Sansa after she talks back to the king when he is showing her father's head.

 

[Miko]

Spoiler

I have thought the same of Bean's supposed appearance in Season 2. Also as Bran comes to use his greenseer powers with the Three-Eyed Crow, he sees his father through the eyes of Winterfell's weirwood so there could be future scenes for Bean if he wants them - he does seem to have enjoyed GoT.

No Reeds yet.

I doubt that there will be all that much about the Tower of Joy or the skills of the Sword of the Morning.

Spoiler

Shame really, although why waste good air time bigging up a dead guy? Hopefully Mr Bean turns up now and again, although one does not simply rise from the dead. . . Unless you count old whatsherface

Spoiler

Not entirely sure where the story of Bloodraven is told. I think the Three-Eyed Crow only gives the skeleton of the story, not explaining who Brynden Rivers was.

Spoiler

Yeah I am not sure either, I know I've read it but where, when. No clue. Might've been on the internet actually, I tend to use that a lot when I cant remember something but theres no way I am rifling through the book to try to find it.

Yeah, some of those extra scenes are great - the five or one was excellent. The conversation between Robert, Jaime and Barristan about their first kills was good too.

Jaime talking about what Aerys had planned to do to King's Landing is important not just to the Kingslayer's character but also in highlighting what at times can be the rather ridiculous ideas of loyalty. There are people who know what Aerys was like and what he was doing to innocent men but still castigate Jaime for doing something that should have been done years earlier. If Rhaegar was such a great and beloved prince, why didn't he have his father replaced? The fact that he didn't is why I believe that out of all of the candidates, Stannis is the only true king.

Another conversation I really liked, even if it was used more to set up a later killing, was Jory Cassell and the Kingslayer, proving that Jaime is far from a meathead - "Theon? He's a good lad."

"I doubt it."

Yeah, that was good for a chuckle, also ironic how Jory was talking about standing with Jaime during the seige of cant remember the name now, Greyjoys place anyway, and watching Jaime and Thoros charge into the city, then an episode, maybe two later Jaime rather callously just jabs a dagger in his eye. A man and heartless killer both.

When it comes to matters of Kingship or who the true King is I am inclined to side with the bugger with the biggest or best army, or the guy who just lopped the head off the previous pretender to any sort of throne, Stannis has as much right to it as anybody else that can take it, as much right as the Targaryeans and the First Men before them. None at all really, but its a matter that seems to be needed to be resolved.

Talking of Arya, am I wrong to hold on to the hope that Syrio is still alive? It didn't look good for him as Arya ran away, but there were several steel swords lying about for him to use. He was one of my favourite mentoring characters from the first series.

While I would not put it passed Martin to have Syrio survive, the fact that the knight who was facing him was Ser Meryn Trant, a member of the Kingsguard who is still alive, makes it very unlikely that the First Sword of Braavos is also still alive.

Most likely dead. Pretty sure you can hear him screaming as Arya runs away, although screaming would imply alive, lets call it fatal screaming.