Winter is Coming - The Night is Dark and Full of Spoilers

[Барбоса]

Spoiler

Shame really, although why waste good air time bigging up a dead guy? Hopefully Mr Bean turns up now and again, although one does not simply rise from the dead. . . Unless you count old whatsherface

Spoiler

Exactly. The only Dayne that enters the story at all is Darkstar during Arianne's abortive attempt to place Myrcella on the Iron Throne so bigging up their family is hardly all that necessary.

Lady Stoneheart has been something of a disappointment. While the seemingly random disappearances of Freys is fun, there is not enough directly from her.

Jory was talking about standing with Jaime during the seige of cant remember the name now, Greyjoys place anyway,

Siege of Pyke.

When it comes to matters of Kingship or who the true King is I am inclined to side with the bugger with the biggest or best army, or the guy who just lopped the head off the previous pretender to any sort of throne, Stannis has as much right to it as anybody else that can take it, as much right as the Targaryeans and the First Men before them. None at all really, but its a matter that seems to be needed to be resolved.

Spoiler

The whole idea of the man with the biggest/best army is and has quite often been proven wrong.

Look at Robb Stark. He proved himself to have the best (not biggest)army and was one of if not the best commander during the War of the Five Kings.

If it came down to who had the biggest army, Mace Tyrell would be on the Iron Throne due to the resources and manpower of the Reach

As Varys suggests, power resides where people think it does. Joffery is seen as the rightful king as the son of Robert Baratheon and therefore is able to gather a large amount of 'popular' support. However, if the people really knew and believed the truth about Joffery, Tommen and Myrcella's parentage, their allegiance would shift elsewhere.

Of course, whether or not the likes of Mace Tyrell or Randyl Tarly (I fancy him to do something drastic in the later books) would turn against the Lannisters is another story. Right now, Cersei has done enough damage to the Lannister cause for the Tyrells to take an increasing role in the ruling of the realm without needing to replace the King.

 

[Miko]

Spoiler

Exactly. The only Dayne that enters the story at all is Darkstar during Arianne's abortive attempt to place Myrcella on the Iron Throne so bigging up their family is hardly all that necessary.

Lady Stoneheart has been something of a disappointment. While the seemingly random disappearances of Freys is fun, there is not enough directly from her.

Spoiler

Shit character, made shitter in my opinion. I'd very much like her to get decapitated sometime soon, I dont even care if it's a Bolton that does it. Boring. To think that we lost Berric to bring her back, I was gutted.

Siege of Pyke.

Thats the one.

Spoiler

The whole idea of the man with the biggest/best army is and has quite often been proven wrong.

Look at Robb Stark. He proved himself to have the best (not biggest)army and was one of if not the best commander during the War of the Five Kings.

If it came down to who had the biggest army, Mace Tyrell would be on the Iron Throne due to the resources and manpower of the Reach

As Varys suggests, power resides where people think it does. Joffery is seen as the rightful king as the son of Robert Baratheon and therefore is able to gather a large amount of 'popular' support. However, if the people really knew and believed the truth about Joffery, Tommen and Myrcella's parentage, their allegiance would shift elsewhere.

Of course, whether or not the likes of Mace Tyrell or Randyl Tarly (I fancy him to do something drastic in the later books) would turn against the Lannisters is another story. Right now, Cersei has done enough damage to the Lannister cause for the Tyrells to take an increasing role in the ruling of the realm without needing to replace the King.

Spoiler

Just personal preference really, if you gave me one man with a bloodline claim, or another with 10,000 swordsmen on his side, I'd say the man with the swords has the true claim, because the birthright thing is a load of bollocks to me. Therefore Renly > Stannis. On the other hand, being a cunning and ruthless bastard gives you a legit claim, so Stannis > Renly. On the third hand, being a politically savvy, devious little prick should certainly give you a strong claim, so Littlefinger > All. But then, Littlefinger could never inspire the loyalty of Robert, Renly and yes, even Stannis. Combine all those qualities and what you eventually end up with, is Tyrion Lannister (except for the swords, but this is Tyrion, he could get them).

But yes, it does all come down to Varys' riddle, power lies where people think it does, basically, Monarchy is the biggest con in history, it's a con so good that the Kings and Queens themselves actually believe it. Danearys and Stannis are both utterly convinced they are the true heir, it is their right to rule, just because of who their families were, they forget that the lands never originally belonged to Targaryeans or Baratheons. Then you've got the even bigger idiots that follow them and devote their lives to them, yes I am talking about you Barristan Selmy and Jon Connington. It's a total farce. Nothing would make me happier than to see that little Tyrell (or Tarly, not sure which) girl on the Throne, or better yet, let Tommen keep it.

I'd be absolutely shocked if their isnt friction between Danearys and Aegon, maybe even bloodshed between their followers for that exact reason. Especially from the Dothraki who might not like the idea of their Khaleesi almost subserviant to another.

With the rise of military religious factions in the World again, it really does look like a war between money, religion and birthright, Varys' riddle could very well be foretelling, more so even than he thought.

The Tyrells and Tarly's promise to bring some more entertainment to the series, thats for sure, a new side, or possibly allies for an old side, but hey, anybody out to make Cersie's life a misery cant be too bad after all.

 

[Барбоса]

Spoiler

Just personal preference really, if you gave me one man with a bloodline claim, or another with 10,000 swordsmen on his side, I'd say the man with the swords has the true claim, because the birthright thing is a load of bollocks to me. Therefore Renly > Stannis. On the other hand, being a cunning and ruthless bastard gives you a legit claim, so Stannis > Renly. On the third hand, being a politically savvy, devious little prick should certainly give you a strong claim, so Littlefinger > All. But then, Littlefinger could never inspire the loyalty of Robert, Renly and yes, even Stannis. Combine all those qualities and what you eventually end up with, is Tyrion Lannister (except for the swords, but this is Tyrion, he could get them).

Spoiler

I agree with everything here aside from the bolded part. Littlefinger is a clever, savvy individual but right now I see him as an opportunist, taking advantage of the situations that are unfolding around him. He is not the instigator.

The real instigator is Varys. He has planned the downfall of the Seven Kingdoms for years.

Nothing would make me happier than to see that little Tyrell (or Tarly, not sure which) girl on the Throne, or better yet, let Tommen keep it.

I assume you mean Margaaery Tyrell. I liked that they were quick to depict her as being politically savvy in the TV show.

Spoiler

I'd be absolutely shocked if their isnt friction between Danearys and Aegon, maybe even bloodshed between their followers for that exact reason. Especially from the Dothraki who might not like the idea of their Khaleesi almost subserviant to another.

Spoiler

Yeah, the Daenerys/Aegon situation will essentially be a rerun of the Renly/Stannis. She will be in a stronger military position (espeically after she wins the inevitable Battle of Slaver's Bay) but will not have as strong a clima to the throne. I doubt that she will take too kindly to that. Barristan on the other hand might be a different kettle of fish. He is caught up enough in the right of succession that he could easily be the one to betray Daenerys "for blood."

Of maybe the betrayal for blood will be Daenerys betraying Aegon... the prophecy only says Dany will "know" 3 betrayals not be betrayed three times.

Spoiler

With the rise of military religious factions in the World again, it really does look like a war between money, religion and birthright, Varys' riddle could very well be foretelling, more so even than he thought.

Spoiler

If there is one more surprise reveal to come - not Coldhands or the Three-Eyed Crow - I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be who the High Sparrow really is.

Even if not, the Faith Militant's reaction to the arrival of Aegon, the outcome of Cersei and Margaery's trials, events in the north, the Wall will be very interesting

 

[Барбоса]

Not surprised they have condensed the two uses of Melisandre's shadows into one. The whole event with Courtnay Penrose, Edric Storm and Storm's End in the book was an unnecessary side show.

The use of the second birthing with Davos' presence was a good choice too, especially as it is he who recognises the shadow.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

I think tonight's episode has been my favourite of the new series so far.

Daenarys looked more like the frightened child at the start of the first season for the first part of her exchange with the Thirteen but then her speech/threat was pretty good.

I can't wait for Joffrey to get his ass kicked.

The scene with Tyrion and his cousin was brilliant, with Tyrion continuously circling him and then the shadowy lighting on his face at the end was a great touch.

The rat torture scenes were horrible without being gruesome. Just the idea of a rat burrowing its way into a body is enough to make me cross my arms over my stomach. Interested to see what's going to happen with Tywin and Arya.

 

[Miko]

Spoiler

I agree with everything here aside from the bolded part. Littlefinger is a clever, savvy individual but right now I see him as an opportunist, taking advantage of the situations that are unfolding around him. He is not the instigator.

The real instigator is Varys. He has planned the downfall of the Seven Kingdoms for years.

Spoiler

Indeed, as Varys points out Littlefinger is the second most devious man in the Seven Kingdoms, I think Varys is in a different league to the others.

I assume you mean Margaaery Tyrell. I liked that they were quick to depict her as being politically savvy in the TV show.

Yeah, it's been good to see that all around, even Robb Starks added scenes in this last episode. In cases such as that, the books are almost a companion piece to the series, as opposed to merely a source.

Spoiler

Yeah, the Daenerys/Aegon situation will essentially be a rerun of the Renly/Stannis. She will be in a stronger military position (espeically after she wins the inevitable Battle of Slaver's Bay) but will not have as strong a clima to the throne. I doubt that she will take too kindly to that. Barristan on the other hand might be a different kettle of fish. He is caught up enough in the right of succession that he could easily be the one to betray Daenerys "for blood."

Of maybe the betrayal for blood will be Daenerys betraying Aegon... the prophecy only says Dany will "know" 3 betrayals not be betrayed three times.

Spoiler

You know I'd completely forgotten about the prophecy. Thats inspired thinking from you there, its something I could really see that old dope Selmy actually doing as well, and when Dany tearfully asks him "why?" He'd stand there all honourable, with a tear rolling down his cheek maybe, and say "I did it for the King." Yuk.

Although I find your second idea far more enjoyable, what a fantastic spanner in the works it'd be to see the Targareans fighting each other.

Spoiler

If there is one more surprise reveal to come - not Coldhands or the Three-Eyed Crow - I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be who the High Sparrow really is.

Even if not, the Faith Militant's reaction to the arrival of Aegon, the outcome of Cersei and Margaery's trials, events in the north, the Wall will be very interesting

Spoiler

Odd man he is, what clues have we got about him? Seriously devout and callused feet are the only ones I can think of. But it is obviously a plan he's had going on for a long while, to militarise the faith and whatnot, or I certainly think it is, because of the speed he executed it.

So much going on though. And still there are the Others. Waiting on the fringes.

 

[Miko]

I can't wait for Joffrey to get his ass kicked.

Such an evil little shit. He's like Sgt. Hakeswill from Sharpe, they guy you really want to get it, too many villains border on likeable, you cant really say that about Joffrey.

The scene with Tyrion and his cousin was brilliant, with Tyrion continuously circling him and then the shadowy lighting on his face at the end was a great touch.

Every scene with him in is getting better and better, I preffered the court room.

"Bronn, if Ser Meryn speaks again, kill him."

 

[Барбоса]

Every scene with him in is getting better and better, I preffered the court room.

"Bronn, if Ser Meryn speaks again, kill him."

My favourite line was "You can't cure being a cunt"

So my mate has chosen his next favourite after Eddard Stark, Robert Baratheon, Khal Drogo, Tywin Lannister and Yoren...

Spoiler

The Hound

He really can pick them

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

Every scene with him in is getting better and better, I preffered the court room.

"Bronn, if Ser Meryn speaks again, kill him."

"That was a threat, see the difference?"

 

[Miko]

My favourite line was "You can't cure being a cunt"

So my mate has chosen his next favourite after Eddard Stark, Robert Baratheon, Khal Drogo and Yoren...

Spoiler

The Hound

He really can pick them

Oh dear lol. He has to get one right eventually.

"That was a threat, see the difference?"

I like how the Kingsguard are supposed to be the best fighters in Westeros, but there was no way Ser Meryn was going to take on Bronn.

 

[Барбоса]

Oh dear lol. He has to get one right eventually.

Spoiler

Of course, there is the obvious suggestion that Sandor Clegane is not dead but has merely set aside the persona of the Hound for that of a monk.

I like how the Kingsguard are supposed to be the best fighters in Westeros, but there was no way Ser Meryn was going to take on Bronn.

One of the things I like about the Hound is that despite his fearsome reputation and utter disdain for chivalry and knighthood, he is far more chivalrous and accomplished a fighter than the likes of Ser Meryn Trant or Ser Boros Blount.

 

[Miko]

Spoiler

Of course, there is the obvious suggestion that Sandor Clegane is not dead but has merely set aside the persona of the Hound for that of a monk.

Spoiler

A nicer thought for his fans than him dying cold, alone and in agony I suppose. Plus he does have some unresolved issues that can still be sorted out, although that didnt really save Ned Stark. Unless you count my ultra out there theory that the deceased members of the Stark family will return to the series as the real bad, bad guys.

One of the things I like about the Hound is that despite his fearsome reputation and utter disdain for chivalry and knighthood, he is far more chivalrous and accomplished a fighter than the likes of Ser Meryn Trant or Ser Boros Blount.

Certainly tries not to act like a good man, but as we've seen already in GOT series he's managed to save Sansa from Joffrey's anger more than once, in tactful ways as well.

Spoiler

Plus, he didnt have to chase Arya through the Red Wedding in order to get her out of it, effectively because of that she wasnt much use to him, but he still risked his life to drag her out. Killed a couple of Frey's in the process.

 

[Барбоса]

Spoiler

A nicer thought for his fans than him dying cold, alone and in agony I suppose. Plus he does have some unresolved issues that can still be sorted out, although that didnt really save Ned Stark. Unless you count my ultra out there theory that the deceased members of the Stark family will return to the series as the real bad, bad guys.

Spoiler

The suggestion is that we have seen the man who was Sandor Clegane when Brienne and her motley crew were searching for Sansa and were speaking with another monk. Sandor is heavily speculated to be the tall monk that hides his face with a hood and is working in the monastery's gardens (I think that is what he was doing).

That certainly is a far out there theory, one that I fear will not bear fruit. Ned and Robb are dead and gone. Catelyn essentially is too. If he makes it to Winds of Winter, Jon Snow is an honourable Stark and the only way he will accept elevation to Lord of Winterfell is if the Night's Watch is no longer needed following the defeat of the Others.

It is rather hilarious that should everyone that is currently alive survive until the end and all reappear in Westeros, Tyrion Lannister is not only the true Lord of Casterly Rock, all the Lannister lands and their allies, he is also the rightful Lord of Winterfell through his marriage to Sansa. And yet at this very moment he is a slave jousting on a pig outside the walls of Mereen.

Spoiler

Plus, he didnt have to chase Arya through the Red Wedding in order to get her out of it, effectively because of that she wasnt much use to him, but he still risked his life to drag her out. Killed a couple of Frey's in the process.

Spoiler

And he tries to justify it by saying that he is still going to ransom her to the Tullys.

It is perhaps that kind of muted good that the monk was talking abut how "the Hound" was dead; that Sandor has set aside his hatred and self-loathing and in doing so accepted that he is actually a decent man rather than the monster that his brother made him into when he burned his face.

 

[Miko]

Spoiler

The suggestion is that we have seen the man who was Sandor Clegane when Brienne and her motley crew were searching for Sansa and were speaking with another monk. Sandor is heavily speculated to be the tall monk that hides his face with a hood and is working in the monastery's gardens (I think that is what he was doing).

That certainly is a far out there theory, one that I fear will not bear fruit. Ned and Robb are dead and gone. Catelyn essentially is too. If he makes it to Winds of Winter, Jon Snow is an honourable Stark and the only way he will accept elevation to Lord of Winterfell is if the Night's Watch is no longer needed following the defeat of the Others.

It is rather hilarious that should everyone that is currently alive survive until the end and all reappear in Westeros, Tyrion Lannister is not only the true Lord of Casterly Rock, all the Lannister lands and their allies, he is also the rightful Lord of Winterfell through his marriage to Sansa. And yet at this very moment he is a slave jousting on a pig outside the walls of Mereen.

Spoiler

I want to reply to the Sandor comment, it sheds no more light onto his situation, but it's a possible spoiler anyway, depending on how far you've got.

It's just one I said jokingly to someone one day, then I start to look for the most outlandish things to make it seem possible, even though it isnt, the only thing I've got to go off is Jorgen Reed saying "The Starks will be back" solemnly, but then he's always solemn isnt he. Plus one Stark is back, I thought why not the others. It's one I enjoy at any rate.

Spoiler

And he tries to justify it by saying that he is still going to ransom her to the Tullys.

It is perhaps that kind of muted good that the monk was talking abut how "the Hound" was dead; that Sandor has set aside his hatred and self-loathing and in doing so accepted that he is actually a decent man rather than the monster that his brother made him into when he burned his face.

Spoiler

I see absolutely no reason for it not to be true, in fact, in the circumstances it is more likely than him actually being dead. It's worth hoping for at any rate, he's a good character and we cant have all of your friends favourites being killed off.

 

[Барбоса]

Spoiler

I see absolutely no reason for it not to be true, in fact, in the circumstances it is more likely than him actually being dead. It's worth hoping for at any rate, he's a good character and we cant have all of your friends favourites being killed off.

Spoiler

Perhaps we will get a climactic showdown between Sandor Clegane as a representative of the Faith and Ser Robert Strong...

 

[Miko]

Spoiler

Perhaps we will get a climactic showdown between Sandor Clegane as a representative of the Faith and Ser Robert Strong...

Spoiler

Well, that just about covers what I was afraid to say due to spoilers earlier. It was my first thought when Robert turned up, wouldnt like to pick a winner though funnily enough.

 

[Барбоса]

Spoiler

Well, that just about covers what I was afraid to say due to spoilers earlier. It was my first thought when Robert turned up, wouldnt like to pick a winner though funnily enough.

Spoiler

Sandor is by far the more proficient fighter. There are few still alive, still in one piece or still in Westeros that could match him. Probably none of the Kingsguard could stand up to aside from maybe Balon Swann, although his fate seems to be tied up with Darkstar and maybe Areo Hotah as well, two of the others that might be able to challenge Sandor. I suppose you could throw Brienne and maybe Bronn, who seems to be a professional knight slayer, into the mix as well.

Gregor is slow and ponderous and relies almost solely on his immense power. However, as Tyrion's trial by combat proved, with that immense power, the Mountain only needs one real opening to literally pulverise any opponent and now that he is probably something more approaching a wight encased head to toe in armour, Sandor may have more than a few problems.

 

[Miko]

Spoiler

Sandor is by far the more proficient fighter. There are few still alive, still in one piece or still in Westeros that could match him. Probably none of the Kingsguard could stand up to aside from maybe Balon Swann, although his fate seems to be tied up with Darkstar and maybe Areo Hotah as well, two of the others that might be able to challenge Sandor. I suppose you could throw Brienne and maybe Bronn, who seems to be a professional knight slayer, into the mix as well.

Gregor is slow and ponderous and relies almost solely on his immense power. However, as Tyrion's trial by combat proved, with that immense power, the Mountain only needs one real opening to literally pulverise any opponent and now that he is probably something more approaching a wight encased head to toe in armour, Sandor may have more than a few problems.

Spoiler

Add in various injuries that he picked up against Gregors men, and you've got an undead, wrapped in armour thicker and heavier than any human could possibly wear, against a cripple. Does Sandor have the power to even get through that armour? He's stronger than Oberyn was, but lacks the speed and finesse, and doesnt have the stamina to constantly outmanouvre what will no doubt turn out to be a tireless monolith. The odds are stacked against him, which means he'll probably win.

 

[Барбоса]

Spoiler

Add in various injuries that he picked up against Gregors men, and you've got an undead, wrapped in armour thicker and heavier than any human could possibly wear, against a cripple. Does Sandor have the power to even get through that armour? He's stronger than Oberyn was, but lacks the speed and finesse, and doesnt have the stamina to constantly outmanouvre what will no doubt turn out to be a tireless monolith. The odds are stacked against him, which means he'll probably win.

Spoiler

It will be interesting to see how much of his fighting ability Ser Gregor's reanimated corpse has retained. It could turn out that he is only capable of the most rudimentary tasks and needs someone to tell him what to do - a side effect of having no head perhaps.

There definitely seems to be a lack of truly standout fighters left in Westeros. The Kingsguard has become a joke. It says a lot when perhaps its best fighter apart from Balon Swann and a reanimated, headless corpse is probably Osmund Kettleblack (probably the first victim of Ser Robert Strong in a trial by combat)... Jaime is crippled, Loras Tyrell has supposedly been boiled in oil, Meryn Trant is a glorified torturer and Boros Blount is a fat, food taster.

 

[Miko]

Spoiler

It will be interesting to see how much of his fighting ability Ser Gregor's reanimated corpse has retained. It could turn out that he is only capable of the most rudimentary tasks and needs someone to tell him what to do - a side effect of having no head perhaps.

Spoiler

You could certainly see that being his/its undoing towards the end, should Robert need instruction. I am pretty sure Qyburn doesnt know the first thing about fighting and if he's the one telling Strong what to do then he isnt going to have a clue should Sandor (or whoever is facing him) gains the upper hand. The only comparison I can think of, is it'll be like reading one of the S.H.I.T malfunctions in WZCW.

Spoiler

There definitely seems to be a lack of truly standout fighters left in Westeros. The Kingsguard has become a joke. It says a lot when perhaps its best fighter apart from Balon Swann and a reanimated, headless corpse is probably Osmund Kettleblack (probably the first victim of Ser Robert Strong in a trial by combat)... Jaime is crippled, Loras Tyrell has supposedly been boiled in oil, Meryn Trant is a glorified torturer and Boros Blount is a fat, food taster.

Spoiler

Indeed, and decent commanders appear to be diminishing as well. It is certainly a land ripe for the taking. Westeros is perhaps typified by what you said about Tyrion Lannister earlier, rightfully very powerful but currently on its last legs.

 

[Барбоса]

Spoiler

Indeed, and decent commanders appear to be diminishing as well. It is certainly a land ripe for the taking. Westeros is perhaps typified by what you said about Tyrion Lannister earlier, rightfully very powerful but currently on its last legs.

Spoiler

I am not all that convinced about there being a lack of good military commanders in Westeros; although their number may be about to drop off further, given that two such skilled commanders in Stannis Baratheon and Roose Bolton are about to square off against each other. There is also Randyll Tarly and the Blackfish. However, I would say that Westeros is lacking an adventurous and daring commander the like of Robert Baratheon, as all of the above men, while tactically and strategically astute, are more defensive and cautious. Perhaps that is why Robb Stark was so successful against Tywin Lannister - Westerosi warfare had devolved into mostly tame, bloodless encounters and sieges as commanders did not want to risk losing large numbers of their own bannermen.

If no one has learned the lessons of the Young Wolf, then Westeros could find itself in dire straits against the Golden Company and any other forces that might appear from the east. Stannis has shown signs of developing from being more adventurous in the realms of strategy but only when he is following the advice of the likes of Jon Snow or Davos Seaworth.

However, the man I think has shown the most signs of becoming a more well rounded commander in the field is Jaime Lannister. His chastenings at the hands of Robb, Vargo Hoat and Brienne have taught him restrait and that he will not always be the strongest dog in the fight. That added to his natural recklessness could see him become Westeros' saviour against the invasions from Essos.

However, defeating the Essene threats is only half of Westeros' problem. Once the true threat of the Others presents itself, the North, the remains of the Night's Watch and Westeros in general will need a commander the like of Stannis or maybe Randyll Tarly to marshall a defence against the armies of wights at somewhere like Moat Cailin. Tarly is considered the best soldier in Westeros so his ability to inspire discipline would be useful against such horrors while Stannis has proven himself to have ironclad will in the face of overwhelming odds and has the aforementioned Davos and probably Jon Snow on his side.

 

[Dave]

I'm just about half way through the first season and I am completely hooked. Good looking out, fellas.

 

[Барбоса]

I'm just about half way through the first season and I am completely hooked. Good looking out, fellas.

Glad to have another viewer amongst us although I would definitely watch you step in this thread as it has become more a discussion of the book series rather than the show.

You might be best to hoke out Coco's non spoiler thread.

 

[Miko]

Spoiler

I am not all that convinced about there being a lack of good military commanders in Westeros; although their number may be about to drop off further, given that two such skilled commanders in Stannis Baratheon and Roose Bolton are about to square off against each other. There is also Randyll Tarly and the Blackfish. However, I would say that Westeros is lacking an adventurous and daring commander the like of Robert Baratheon, as all of the above men, while tactically and strategically astute, are more defensive and cautious. Perhaps that is why Robb Stark was so successful against Tywin Lannister - Westerosi warfare had devolved into mostly tame, bloodless encounters and sieges as commanders did not want to risk losing large numbers of their own bannermen.

If no one has learned the lessons of the Young Wolf, then Westeros could find itself in dire straits against the Golden Company and any other forces that might appear from the east. Stannis has shown signs of developing from being more adventurous in the realms of strategy but only when he is following the advice of the likes of Jon Snow or Davos Seaworth.

However, the man I think has shown the most signs of becoming a more well rounded commander in the field is Jaime Lannister. His chastenings at the hands of Robb, Vargo Hoat and Brienne have taught him restrait and that he will not always be the strongest dog in the fight. That added to his natural recklessness could see him become Westeros' saviour against the invasions from Essos.

However, defeating the Essene threats is only half of Westeros' problem. Once the true threat of the Others presents itself, the North, the remains of the Night's Watch and Westeros in general will need a commander the like of Stannis or maybe Randyll Tarly to marshall a defence against the armies of wights at somewhere like Moat Cailin. Tarly is considered the best soldier in Westeros so his ability to inspire discipline would be useful against such horrors while Stannis has proven himself to have ironclad will in the face of overwhelming odds and has the aforementioned Davos and probably Jon Snow on his side.

Spoiler

Yep, if you want anybody to have to face a seige, it is the middle Baratheon brother.

But I was thinking in terms of the Robert Baratheon's, the guy who could make people follow him into the breach as it were, who just got on with it. As one of the characters said about Stannis "Robert wouldnt have let a thing like a River get in his way." Like you said, perhaps Jaime losing his sword hand could mean he retains his bravery and charisma, but also develop the battle smarts that Robert no doubt had. He knew how to win a war.

Connington of course is up there.

Tarly completely slipped my mind, I was really, really loving it when I heard he was marching on Kings Landing and was slightly dissapointed that it ended peacefully, I thought it was finally time for the City to fall. I agree in that he no doubt has a huge role to play, even if most of it is off-screen as it were.

The mouth watering part is certainly the others though, even though some of the remaining people are responsible for the deaths and defeats of some of the series favourites, you cant help but be attached to them, even Stannis, just not Daenerys in my case, sorry. I honestly cant wait to see how they handle themselves in the face of the others.

 

[Барбоса]

Spoiler

The mouth watering part is certainly the others though, even though some of the remaining people are responsible for the deaths and defeats of some of the series favourites, you cant help but be attached to them, even Stannis, just not Daenerys in my case, sorry. I honestly cant wait to see how they handle themselves in the face of the others.

Spoiler

It will definitely take a different kind of warfare to defeat the Others. My immediate reaction is that it would take a strong defensive position to defeat them but then there is no better defensive position than the Wall... I suspect that the men charged with squaring up to the Others will approach it in a similar way even if the Wall is brought down by the Horn of Joramun, relying on the defences of the likes of the Dreadfort or Moat Cailin (should it become that bad).

However, I think it will take someone clever enough (perhaps inspired by Samwell or Tyrion's knowledge) or perhaps foolhardy enough (Jaime?) to meet the Others in open battle allowing a repeat of the Field of Fire with the dragons sweeping fire across the wight armies.