Winter is Coming - The Night is Dark and Full of Spoilers

[Miko]

Spoiler

If he goes out, he'll go out in an epic battle doing something insanely heroic. Probably saving his daughter or something. Something is happening with his daughter, that's for sure. To much foreshadowing with the Davos conversation last night.

Anyone else fucking pumped to see Jorah bring the plague to Westeros?

Spoiler

Hmm, maybe, normally I wouldn't put him and heroic in the same sentence, and being a selfish bastard I'd rather have him alive and evil rather than dead and good. He's just more interesting than most, and obviously the fate of the show character will likely reflect the fate of the book character. I just want him to take down those pesky Boltons. Oh god, and Shireen, her arc literally has me wondering whether HBO are willing to show a child being burnt, because its sure as shit ominous for the poor girl.

I think the plague goes to Meeren first, since they're missing the Pale Mare, but yeah, the poor folk of Westeros need more bad stuff happening to them lol

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Well that episode was a fuckin' blast wasnt it

 

[Alastor]

The bitching from Sansa fans is a blast I'll say. Was it really rape when they are consummating their marriage? What did they want? Two sexless marriages for Sansa in the Westeros?

 

[Mighty NorCal]

The bitching from Sansa fans is a blast I'll say. Was it really rape when they are consummating their marriage?

UH??? YEA?

 

[Alastor]

UH??? YEA?

Sansa agreed to the marriage. What did she think would happen?

 

[George Steele's Barber]

Sansa agreed to the marriage. What did she think would happen?

Don't be stupid.

 

[Alastor]

Don't be stupid.

I think it would have been stupid to think Ramsey wouldn't touch her after marriage.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

I think it would have been stupid to think Ramsey wouldn't touch her after marriage.

And that would be right but it doesn't make Ramsey's act anything but rape.

 

[Alastor]

And that would be right but it doesn't make Ramsey's act anything but rape.

He did ask her 'nicely' or about as nice as a sadistic bastard could. And she didn't object.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

He did ask her 'nicely' or about as nice as a sadistic bastard could. And she didn't object.

No one here is telling you not to post but no court anywhere on Earth or in Westeros could argue that you have not raped our intelligence.

 

[Miko]

Spoiler

I tend to think of the show as mostly poorly written but expensive fan-fiction these days (and I really don't mind changes, when they are good, I've read LOTR, but I think the films are brilliant), so my reaction was generally not interested, apart from one or two stand-outs. Mainly Bronn voicing my opinion of most of this season and providing the only highlight of the episode "oh, for fucks sake!" *enter into poorly shot fight scene*. In fact I reckon he's the only character that the scriptwriters haven't raped in this episode, so I don't foresee him living much longer. Why are all the gay men 90's stereotypical man-****s? I dunno, just feels like its lost that otherworldy vibe it used to have for the sake of exploitation and shock factor, or maybe I am just being a ponce? The sad part is it still offers enough highlights to make me want to tune in anyway.

That scene feels even dirtier because, strangely, it feels like the show-runners have been gagging to film it ever since season 2 and have just been waiting for her to get old enough, though to be fair it was less gratitious than every other rape scene on this show, ever, and Reeks reaction shows that Alfie Allen is still killing it, at least. But Sansa's entire Winterfell plot is a rehash of season 2, that's taken some serious mental gymnastics to get her to this stage.

 

[Барбоса]

Definitely a pretty meh episode this week, although we have seen such dull episodes in mid season before, setting the scene for something more spectacular - the Wildling-Watch at Hardhome, chaos at Mereen and the Battle at Winterfell.

Glad to see Olyenna back for a nice scene with Cersei, who also shared a good chat with the scheming Littlefinger. As Miko said, only Bronn drew a reaction from me.

One thing I did like was Doran referring to Myrcella as a Lannister. Is he showing that he knows her parentage or is it just due to the obvious Lannister domination of the throne?

 

[Mighty NorCal]

So did The lannister contigent showing up in the Gardens happily line up with the Sand Snakes arriving simultaneously in the book?

Because that was fuckin preposterous.

I want to use that as an example as to how its becoming clear the show is becoming a "show" more than portrayal of mythology.

 

[Alastor]

No one here is telling you not to post but no court anywhere on Earth or in Westeros could argue that you have not raped our intelligence.

How does one rape another's intelligence and what would be the burden of proof of that?

So did The lannister contigent showing up in the Gardens happily line up with the Sand Snakes arriving simultaneously in the book?

Because that was fuckin preposterous.

I want to use that as an example as to how its becoming clear the show is becoming a "show" more than portrayal of mythology.

Jamie and Bronn never end up in the Gardens in the books at all. However the sandsnakes plot in the book also involve Aero Hotah (the prince's bodyguard) arriving to stop their plot out of nowhere as well.

Cersei did get someone to bring Mycella home but there was more ridiculous plot development in that storyline too. Namely Prince Doran somehow knowing every plot by Cercei as if magic.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

I know Bronn and Jaimie weren't the ones sent. hence the term "lannister contingent"


I see though, either way it ends up being silly. I just immeadiately pinpointed that particular happy coincidence as made for TV laziness.

 

[Alastor]

Oh that is TV laziness. It is just stupid that both party went at Mycella at the same time. At least in the books Aero Hotah appearing out of nowhere was him guarding a spot the sandsnakes were moving towards iirc.

Still pretty dumb in the books Doran is portrayed as all-knowing, much like Varys. Just like how words of Jorah's father's death at the nightwatch reach Tyrion so easily on the show just to show them having a conversation about fathers. Do these men have access to the internet in Westeros or something?

 

[Mighty NorCal]

I think after this week, im done viewing weekly. The show has proven to be only worth viewing a season at a time.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

GoT has entered the Bray Wyatt stage of interest for me now. Pains me to fucking say it.

• The Sand Snakes went from being an enigmatic group of killers who were to attack King's Landing on the inside to a group of petulant children who forgot their own country's laws.
• Sansa is nowhere near assimilating into the Stoneheart character. Her bathtub scene was good, and you get that feeling she is going to make changes with "I'm stronger within the walls of Winterfell" mentality, but I think the end scene kinda killed whatever hope I have for her. But then again Daenerys was treated the same way with Drogo at first...wait. Shit.
• Snakes/Jaime was fucking ridiculous.
• The portrayal of homosexuals in this show just keeps getting worse.
• You'd think with all of this in the air shit we'd find something for Rickon to do. Anyone remember him? He's only a surviving Stark. But then again Martin forgot him, too.
• And Gendry.
• Even the Ironborn are forgotten. We gave up most of the good shit for this weird Sansa/Brienne/Bolton subplot. At least Jaime/Snakes aren't taking up half the show each episode.

I'm a creature of habit though and will continue to watch. Just not like the fanboy I was. High Sparrow is still intriguing. Arya is still Arya. And The Wall should still be excellent. Battle for Winterfell has been fucked beyond recognition but Theon and Stannis will make it work I'm sure.

 

[Miko]

So did The lannister contigent showing up in the Gardens happily line up with the Sand Snakes arriving simultaneously in the book?

Because that was fuckin preposterous.

I want to use that as an example as to how its becoming clear the show is becoming a "show" more than portrayal of mythology.

Jamie and Bronn never end up in the Gardens in the books at all. However the sandsnakes plot in the book also involve Aero Hotah (the prince's bodyguard) arriving to stop their plot out of nowhere as well.

Cersei did get someone to bring Mycella home but there was more ridiculous plot development in that storyline too. Namely Prince Doran somehow knowing every plot by Cercei as if magic.

I know Bronn and Jaimie weren't the ones sent. hence the term "lannister contingent"


I see though, either way it ends up being silly. I just immeadiately pinpointed that particular happy coincidence as made for TV laziness.

Oh that is TV laziness. It is just stupid that both party went at Mycella at the same time. At least in the books Aero Hotah appearing out of nowhere was him guarding a spot the sandsnakes were moving towards iirc.

Still pretty dumb in the books Doran is portrayed as all-knowing, much like Varys. Just like how words of Jorah's father's death at the nightwatch reach Tyrion so easily on the show just to show them having a conversation about fathers. Do these men have access to the internet in Westeros or something?

Sorry to quote all the posts, its not as stupid in the books, nowhere near. The stupidity of both plots in the show would actually offend me if the very intelligent Prince of Dorne didn't see the Sand Snakes coming a mile off, he just needs to catch them in the act, but yeah, Jaime and Bronn arriving at the same time was bollocks.

Doesn't go down like that in the books, the Lannister contingent has actually only just arrived and Doran is just bamboozling them quietly. Jaime is playing the Balon Swann role, in the books Cersie is even more of an idiot, so yeah, Doran is a step ahead without even trying. The Sandsnake role comes from something that happens before the Lannisters attempting to rescue Myrcella, Arrianne (Doran's daughter) actually is attempting to crown Myrcella, but again, she is thick as pig shit and Doran lets her go just far enough to condemn herself before stopping the whole thing, then it becomes people considering killing Myrcella. Arys Oakheart dies during this, decapitated by Hotah, and I am afraid that Bronn might be playing this role, except with poison. Shame, because along with Alisser Thorne and a couple of others, show Bronn is better than his book version.

So yeah, the show is basically shit now. The creators have got too much of a hard-on for their own creations and seem to be forgetting what they are actually adapting.

I think after this week, im done viewing weekly. The show has proven to be only worth viewing a season at a time.

I've only said it a million times but team Dragonstone is the only thing keeping my interest, and that's only because I am hoping their show fates reflect their books ones.

GoT has entered the Bray Wyatt stage of interest for me now. Pains me to fucking say it.

• The Sand Snakes went from being an enigmatic group of killers who were to attack King's Landing on the inside to a group of petulant children who forgot their own country's laws.
• Sansa is nowhere near assimilating into the Stoneheart character. Her bathtub scene was good, and you get that feeling she is going to make changes with "I'm stronger within the walls of Winterfell" mentality, but I think the end scene kinda killed whatever hope I have for her. But then again Daenerys was treated the same way with Drogo at first...wait. Shit.
• Snakes/Jaime was fucking ridiculous.
• The portrayal of homosexuals in this show just keeps getting worse.
• You'd think with all of this in the air shit we'd find something for Rickon to do. Anyone remember him? He's only a surviving Stark. But then again Martin forgot him, too.
• And Gendry.
• Even the Ironborn are forgotten. We gave up most of the good shit for this weird Sansa/Brienne/Bolton subplot. At least Jaime/Snakes aren't taking up half the show each episode.

I'm a creature of habit though and will continue to watch. Just not like the fanboy I was. High Sparrow is still intriguing. Arya is still Arya. And The Wall should still be excellent. Battle for Winterfell has been fucked beyond recognition but Theon and Stannis will make it work I'm sure.

Lol Sansa, to be honest her fans annoy me because they can't go two sentences without saying "agency" or "empowerment", but I am not sure the showrunners could adapt anything other than "Sansa the victim" anyway. And yeah, don't get me started on te gays.

 

[Alastor]

Sansa was always the damsel in distress in the books. It's the PC empowering movement that followed after the show change her into 'dark' Sansa last season that gave the social justice warriors something to whine about. There are strong and weak characters in the show, where is the bitching about stopping to watch the show about how useless Tommen is or how Loras is a cartoon gay character on the show? It is ok to show torture by religious fanatics but not ok to show a villain doing bad things. I don't know why they think Sansa have the power, cunning, or intelligence to go up against people of power like the Boltons, Littlefinger or even Cersei.

Doesn't go down like that in the books, the Lannister contingent has actually only just arrived and Doran is just bamboozling them quietly. Jaime is playing the Balon Swann role, in the books Cersie is even more of an idiot, so yeah, Doran is a step ahead without even trying. The Sandsnake role comes from something that happens before the Lannisters attempting to rescue Myrcella, Arrianne (Doran's daughter) actually is attempting to crown Myrcella, but again, she is thick as pig shit and Doran lets her go just far enough to condemn herself before stopping the whole thing, then it becomes people considering killing Myrcella. Arys Oakheart dies during this, decapitated by Hotah, and I am afraid that Bronn might be playing this role, except with poison. Shame, because along with Alisser Thorne and a couple of others, show Bronn is better than his book version.

So yeah, the show is basically shit now. The creators have got too much of a hard-on for their own creations and seem to be forgetting what they are actually adapting.

I was referring to the sandsnakes in the books being confronted so easily in a super secret plot. Cercei's plot in the book was dumb. But I would argue Doran's plan to slow down Balon Swann is equally implausible that it worked just in time.

At least in the books both parties (at least Arianne) were looking out for Mycella. The show dumbed it down to one side wants her dead while the other wants her alive. Oh they added a Romeo and Juliet storyline just because.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

The portrayal of homosexuals in this show just keeps getting worse.

I don't get this. I'm not a book reader so maybe I am missing something but I think of King's Landing as a terrible place, Cersei as a terrible person, and the Sparrows as a bunch of fanatics. Gays and gay acts are frowned upon in this universe and I am OK with that since it is fiction.

So what is the specific complaint about the treatment of gays?

 

[Miko]

I don't get this. I'm not a book reader so maybe I am missing something but I think of King's Landing as a terrible place, Cersei as a terrible person, and the Sparrows as a bunch of fanatics. Gays and gay acts are frowned upon in this universe and I am OK with that since it is fiction.

So what is the specific complaint about the treatment of gays?

In the books homosexuality isn't really anything anybody cares about that much, bit like religion, don't ask don't tell, the Sparrows formed to protect Septs and Holy people from rapists and murderers, etc, they could become fanatics, the High Septon is certainly a prick, so maybe the show took a short-cut. None of this is the issue for me.

Loras Tyrell and Renly Baratheon had probably one of the healthier, more monogamous relationships in the series, in fact, after Renly died Loras joined the Kingsguard in part because celibacy was no longer a big deal for him. But he's also one of the great warriors of Westeros and frankly, a cocky little prick, you have to read between the lines to even know he's gay, in the show he's going on about his Wedding dress and fashion, and is notably promiscuous with the lads, you name the stereotype and Loras hits it. Same goes for Renly "fucked half the stable boys in Westeros", scared of blood, weak little nice guy too scared to consummate with a woman. Except he's not, he's a big bastard, rides in tourneys (not well, but he rides) likes hunting, ambitious and ruthless, considered to be a young Robert (although lacking the prowess, to be sure), you'd have to read between the lines to know he's gay. Game Of Thrones does it like it does everything else, hits you round the face with it.

Its a small gripe, to be honest, its just a shame they turned some pretty entertaining characters into something out of Will and Grace, except lacking the depth, but its the same kind of subtlety with which they handle everything, so

 

[Miko]

Sansa was always the damsel in distress in the books. It's the PC empowering movement that followed after the show change her into 'dark' Sansa last season that gave the social justice warriors something to whine about. There are strong and weak characters in the show, where is the bitching about stopping to watch the show about how useless Tommen is or how Loras is a cartoon gay character on the show? It is ok to show torture by religious fanatics but not ok to show a villain doing bad things. I don't know why they think Sansa have the power, cunning, or intelligence to go up against people of power like the Boltons, Littlefinger or even Cersei.

There is bitching about that, but yeah, Sansa shouters are much louder, and I am not sure I disagree with them, compared to the Tommen and Loras changes, its a big move.

Lets put it this way, if Sansa's story is to evolve into one of her playing the game and avenging her family which people including GRRM and the showrunners are insisting is;then instead of the political thriller its being written as in the books, the show version will closer represent a 70's or 80's exploitation film like "The last House on the left". Its like rape has to be the thing that pushes a woman over the edge. I see their point, although worse happens to a basic unknown at Ramsay's hands in the books, which is why I don't buy the rape itself as a complaint, just the hurdles that were jumped through to make it Sansa and effectively take 2 steps back from the direction they were pushing her in... I am not sure its a wrestling forum topic, and really, I should know better.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

That all sounds reasonable. Thanks Miko.

And since no one asked, I am really enjoying this season. The first two episodes were good, the next two were terrific, and I appreciated the last one for what it was.

My biggest complaint is that Khaleesi belongs with me.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

I'll say this much for this season — I'm sure glad we've bypassed, effectively, the entire Ironborn nonsense, Aegon and all his bullshit and fake Arya.

The show gets plenty wrong, but what it gets right it gets really right when you compare it to the alternative of what GRRM does, which is basically to write twenty more characters into the story to keep everyone guessing. So much so he ends up tripping over what to do with all of them.