Winter is Coming - The Night is Dark and Full of Spoilers

[Alastor]

There is bitching about that, but yeah, Sansa shouters are much louder, and I am not sure I disagree with them, compared to the Tommen and Loras changes, its a big move.

Lets put it this way, if Sansa's story is to evolve into one of her playing the game and avenging her family which people including GRRM and the showrunners are insisting is;then instead of the political thriller its being written as in the books, the show version will closer represent a 70's or 80's exploitation film like "The last House on the left". Its like rape has to be the thing that pushes a woman over the edge. I see their point, although worse happens to a basic unknown at Ramsay's hands in the books, which is why I don't buy the rape itself as a complaint, just the hurdles that were jumped through to make it Sansa and effectively take 2 steps back from the direction they were pushing her in... I am not sure its a wrestling forum topic, and really, I should know better.

If I were the showrunner and expected this backlash, I would have wholly adapted what happened to Jeyne Poole for the hell of it. I think its obvious Sansa isn't a favourite book character of mine.

Difference is probably in the books Sansa is younger and can play the wolf in sheep clothing fake out. The show just made her wear black and become 'dark' Sansa for the cheap pops because GIRLPOWER. They should have just been unforgiving misogynistic like in the books instead of trying to be PC and making awkward mistakes.

 

[Alex]

So I just watched the latest episode and I feel people are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Yes it's implied Ramsey kind of forced himself on Sansa (which can count as rape) but at the same time the thing about not seeing something is the mind fills in the gaps. So essentially the people complaining about it are in a way to blame.

Contrast that with Danerys getting full on drilled by Khal Drogo (which you do see) when he forced himself on her and I'm wondering why that scene apparently didn't cause as much controversy

 

[Spidey Revivey]

May be because Drogo's family wasn't responsible for killing off most of Daenerys's own. And Sansa can't catch a break. But I don't get much of the end hate myself. I think it was odd to end on that note, but Sansa isn't exactly the most titulating character on there (and I'm a Sansa fan). Could've been worse for sure. If it was Arya the fans probably would have spontaneously combusted.

 

[Miko]

So I just watched the latest episode and I feel people are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Yes it's implied Ramsey kind of forced himself on Sansa (which can count as rape) but at the same time the thing about not seeing something is the mind fills in the gaps. So essentially the people complaining about it are in a way to blame.

Contrast that with Danerys getting full on drilled by Khal Drogo (which you do see) when he forced himself on her and I'm wondering why that scene apparently didn't cause as much controversy

Reason 1; Dany & Drogo is in the books, and laughably considered a love story, but its in the books.

Reason 2; Sansa is our delicate little flower and and people are trying to live vicariously through her (empowerment, etc.).

Reason 3: Sansa's hymen is apparently sacred.

Reason 4; Its rape being used as a growth/story-telling tool yet again, and it is rape, and Game Of Thrones historically does a poor job of showing the fallout of such things yadda, yadda (see Jaime/Cersie last year) and its generally a throw away thing. I can see why some people take issue with that.

Like I say, I see the issue, but there was no other way out of this mess the second Sansa walked back into Winterfell, not without significantly changing Ramsay's character or severely shortening the arc and having her and Theon bust outta there, or even, God forbid Brienne finally not fucking something up, the latter was an option at least but the show chose not to do it in this instance. People don't really trust the writers not to totally Michael Bay a situation anymore *CRASH! KABOOM!*, and whatever else my thoughts I certainly don't blame them for that.

 

[Alastor]

It's too bad that Reek's story can't be told well on television. His chapters were really great reading for me. I'll defend Theon against these Sansa whiteknights all day.

 

[Fizzy]

I'll say this much for this season — I'm sure glad we've bypassed, effectively, the entire Ironborn nonsense, Aegon and all his bullshit and fake Arya.

The show gets plenty wrong, but what it gets right it gets really right when you compare it to the alternative of what GRRM does, which is basically to write twenty more characters into the story to keep everyone guessing. So much so he ends up tripping over what to do with all of them.

This is what people don't fucking get. They're so wrapped up in their superiority complex because they've read the books that they fail to see that books 4&5 are a total clusterfuck. They are a whole fuck ton of absolutely nothing. I get it, Kingsmoot would be cool. After that we get Victorion sailing for 10 chapters. We get Aegon and JonCon talking for 10 chapters. We get Brienne walking for 10 chapters. Bran commenting on snow and seeing a raven for an entire book. It's mind numbing how boring the shit that people are in an uproar truly is. Is the show perfect? No. It is not. Is it better than the books? No, it is not. Does it clear up a ton of useless characters and storylines that people get attached to because it makes them seem more knowledgable and smart for reading the books? You bet your ass. Book fans are so fucking fickle there was an uproar because Jon didn't say one small, totally insignificant line before killing Slynt. It's insane

 

[Phoenix]

Having seen this week's episode after the reaction, it was definitely was an overreaction on the majority part. I do agree that it feels like two steps back for Sansa, who was coming into her own as a character, but it's now turning into Reek's story to save her. That's the real issue that the TV fans have with the rape, that it took a form of dignity from Sansa to then go to say that Theon's redemption is greater than Sansa's development and eventual revenge against those who wronged her. I'll keep watching as I enjoy the show, but this Season has been a step down to previous, almost like what happened with Mad Men.

 

[Fizzy]

It's not two steps back. It's Sansa doing exactly what she had to do in order to gain trust and manipulate the people of Winterfell. She's turning cold, she's turning into a true Stark. This is the moment she goes from goody two shoes innocent little Sansa to a cold blooded, strong, independent Stark. This is the major moment in her character development. She's always had to rely on someone else to protect her and save her. This marks the turn where that all changes

 

[Барбоса]

The thing I do not get about the uproar of the Sansa marital rape is that it is completely in-keeping with so much about the GoT/ASOIAF universe, aside from it not happening in the books (yet).

Ramsay was not going to change overnight and neither was the power of a husband over his wife in the medieval context in which the show/books are set. There is no glorifying of rape in the scene as Theon is clearly horrified. Sansa is nowhere as young in the show as she would be in the books. In fact, it would have been so much worse if Ramsay had not forced himself on his new wife.

And as Fizzy says, utilising this event is a good way to show her becoming the more detached woman that she will need to be to survive the world of upper-class Westerosi politics.

In other GoT news, the Mountain was at Unstoppable

And the Coldplay/GoT Musical for Red Nose Day looks like a bit of fun.

 

[Alex]

And the Coldplay/GoT Musical for Red Nose Day looks like a bit of fun.

It is

[YOUTUBE]zs7xO5P3Az4[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Miko]

Sweet Jesus, Ramsay has so much plot armour right now that if he stepped on a landmine, Theon would lose his legs. At least now we know why they cast who they cast as Tyene, Lawd have mercy!

Anyway, here is some casting news, that may be true or false for season 6, if its true, then its exciting stuff, some of these will be obvious but some could use some deciphering;

Spoiler

Pirate, man in his 40’s to late 50’s. He’s “an infamous pirate who has terrorized seas all around the world. Cunning, ruthless, with a touch of madness.”
He’s a dangerous-looking man. A very good part this season.

Spoiler

Father. Aged 50’s to 60’s, he’s one of the greatest soldiers in Westeros- a humorless martinet, severe and intimidating. He demands martial discipline in the field and in his home. It’s described as “a very good part” for next year and that he’s “centrally involved” in a protagonist’s storyline.

Spoiler

Mother, in her 50’s. She’s a sweet, plump, and adoring mother, and has a soft spot for one of her children who benefits from her decency.

Sister, in her early 20s. She’s a kind, friendly and unpretentious woman.

Brother, in his early to mid-20’s . Athletic, a good hunter, an excellent swordsman, manly, not particularly bright but the favourite child of the father.

Spoiler

Priest, in his 40’s or 50’s. A gruff ex-soldier who found religion. Now a no-nonsense rural priest who ministers to the poor of the countryside. He’s salt-of-the-earth man who has weathered many battles.

Spoiler

Leading Actress, in her early 40’s, she’s an elegant actress with a traveling theatre company. Fun, charismatic, rum-drinking actress in the troupe.

Priestess. Mid-20’s to early 30’s. Any ethnicity- she’s beautiful, intense, and magnetic.

Fierce Warrior, a tall man in 30’s or 40’s with a powerful physique. They’re looking for someone with “mixed ethnicity” for the role.

Spoiler

A large boy, with an actor who is 10-12 but playing 7 or 8. He’s described as “a clever boy” who seems too large for his age. He’s big and tall but not fat. “Characterful squat features” are a plus for this part. it’s specified that this is a one-time appearance.

12 year old boy, with brown hair and blue eyes. He needs to use a Northern accent. He has scenes where he has to spar with a wooden sword. The length of the role isn’t specified.

7 year old boy with dark brown hair, a narrow face and green eyes. He also has a Northern accent. He also spars with the wooden sword, so it’s safe to assume it’s the same scene. This role is similarly open-ended, the description only stating that the character is being ‘introduced.’

 

[Барбоса]

I will be interested to see how Doran deals with having Jaime in his power, especially when his plan was to destroy the House of Lannister.

I have found that the show has followed the books in one increasingly obvious way - the timeline is completely up the left.

As for those new characters, definitely some interesting selections and while I love the presence of one family, it makes me wary of developments in the north.

 

[Dowdsy McDowds]

Father. Aged 50’s to 60’s, he’s one of the greatest soldiers in Westeros- a humorless martinet, severe and intimidating. He demands martial discipline in the field and in his home. It’s described as “a very good part” for next year and that he’s “centrally involved” in a protagonist’s storyline. - Although it wouldn't be obvious he's one of the greatest soldiers in Westeros, Howland Reed? Him or either Sam or Brienne's dad would be my guesses

I think a few of the others could be members of the Greyjoy clan but maybe its too late to bring them back into the fold and just wishful thinking.

One of the boys in the bottom spoiler could be Rickon mayhaps?

Priest, in his 40’s or 50’s. A gruff ex-soldier who found religion. Now a no-nonsense rural priest who ministers to the poor of the countryside. He’s salt-of-the-earth man who has weathered many battles.

Spoiler

Surely the guy who buries the Hound?

Mother, in her 50’s. She’s a sweet, plump, and adoring mother, and has a soft spot for one of her children who benefits from her decency.

Sister, in her early 20s. She’s a kind, friendly and unpretentious woman.

Brother, in his early to mid-20’s . Athletic, a good hunter, an excellent swordsman, manly, not particularly bright but the favourite child of the father. - No idea but they sound like fun.

 

[Alastor]

Seems like the family will be Sam's family and the Pirate could be Euron/Victarion hybrid.
The Priests is probably who you just mentioned.

No clue about the actress in the troupe, could be a new role for the TV show.

Priestess and fierce warrior and boys? Could they be adapting Aegon for season 6?

 

[Alastor]

That was a great second half of the show. Jon Snow was freaking badass. I'm sure if I look back I will spot major flaws in the battle scenes but damn about time the white walkers show up to the dance. Every other characters plot seem so insignificant compared to what happened. And we are talking about Arya finally back on the streets and Dany and Tyrion meeting happening in the same episode.

They sure are setting up Jon's squire to do something stupid later. Book readers should know.

 

[jmt225]

Yeah the battle last night was fantastic. The final scene was a top 5'er for me.

I get a lot of people aren't digging this season for their own reasons, but I personally have preferred it over last season to this point. The only thing (besides Sam) I really don't like about this season is the Cersei/Margaery storyline. It's ******ed to think that King's Landing most powerful people could ever be intimidated and bullied by a few religious fanatics. They've had the biggest and baddest army on the show to this point and yet this is what's taking them down? Really?

Anyways, regardless... I'm very much enjoying this season. Jon Snow is more awesome than ever, Ramsay is my favorite heel on the show, the chemistry last night between Daenerys and Tyrion was incredible and has me stoked to see them working further together in the future, no Bran this season has been refreshing, etc.

 

[Poop Master Flex]

I can't wait to see Jon Snow sit on the Iron Throne (or at least that's how I think it will all go down at the end) but getting there has been a blast.

Last nights episode was damn excellent, although I find it odd that the High Sparrow's of all people can take down the most powerful family in Westeros I loved watching Cersei have to suck the water off the floor. Watching Tyrion and Daenerys showed a lot of promise going forward, they seem to mesh well together and I'm looking forward to see how they can work together. Of course the show stealer was the final battle with the white walkers and watching all the slain Wildings arise from the dead to end the episode.

So far it's been a good season but I was a bigger fan of the last few seasons, a lot of this season felt like you were just waiting for things to happen but last nights payoff made it all worth it. Besides, even on slow episodes Game of Thrones still delivers so this show being a little slow at times isn't much an issue at all.

Lastly, I love that we have seen none of Bran this season and it's going to be awesome when he arises from his stay with the Children of the Forest. I could very well see him being the key in defeating the white walkers down the line.

 

[Барбоса]

I don't think the show has done a good enough job in demonstrating the size, popularity and power of the Faith Militant in not just King's Landing but in the provinces as well. On top of that, the increasing weakness of the Baratheon-Lannister has not been played up enough so it appears that there is a real disconnect between the power of both.

The extent of how Cersei has made a mess of things hasn't been shown enough either.

The Battle of Hardhome was rather spectacular. Seeing Jon kill a walker and the Night's King appearing to raise his new minions were great additions.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Isnt it funny that after all this glacial exposition, its all going to come down to a battle with a force that has next to no character development (how the fuck could they) and no discernible motivation/purpose besides the usual "braaaaaaaaaiiiiiinnnsssss...."



Yea, that episode was fuckin' bitchin. Picked the wrong week to not give GOT my 60" to play on.

and next week is episode 9, baby!!

 

[Miko]

As for those new characters, definitely some interesting selections and while I love the presence of one family, it makes me wary of developments in the north.

Hmm? Care to elaborate

Father. Aged 50’s to 60’s, he’s one of the greatest soldiers in Westeros- a humorless martinet, severe and intimidating. He demands martial discipline in the field and in his home. It’s described as “a very good part” for next year and that he’s “centrally involved” in a protagonist’s storyline. - Although it wouldn't be obvious he's one of the greatest soldiers in Westeros, Howland Reed? Him or either Sam or Brienne's dad would be my guesses

That is Randyll Tarly or I will eat my own scrotum, he's been mentioned every season, most recently by the guy who is most similar to him (Stannis). Howland hasn't been mentioned once.

I think a few of the others could be members of the Greyjoy clan but maybe its too late to bring them back into the fold and just wishful thinking.

Please let the Pirate be Euron, which is most likely, he is in the Greyjoy family tree. Unlike Vic and Aeron

One of the boys in the bottom spoiler could be Rickon mayhaps?

Priest, in his 40’s or 50’s. A gruff ex-soldier who found religion. Now a no-nonsense rural priest who ministers to the poor of the countryside. He’s salt-of-the-earth man who has weathered many battles.

Spoiler

Surely the guy who buries the Hound?

Either him or Septon Merribald, or maybe a new casting for Cersie to deal with.

Mother, in her 50’s. She’s a sweet, plump, and adoring mother, and has a soft spot for one of her children who benefits from her decency.

Sister, in her early 20s. She’s a kind, friendly and unpretentious woman.

Brother, in his early to mid-20’s . Athletic, a good hunter, an excellent swordsman, manly, not particularly bright but the favourite child of the father. - No idea but they sound like fun.

[/QUOTE]

These go hand in hand with the "father" character, so Sam's family. The boy is Dickon, interesting that he's been cast because we've yet to see him in the books.

Seems like the family will be Sam's family and the Pirate could be Euron/Victarion hybrid.
The Priests is probably who you just mentioned.

No clue about the actress in the troupe, could be a new role for the TV show.

Priestess and fierce warrior and boys? Could they be adapting Aegon for season 6?

I am hoping that Aegon could turn up, but if they FINALLY give us Strong Belwas! We need a pit fighter now that Dany has reopened the pits, Belwas was a pit fighter.



EDIT - And last nights episode is a great example of when GOT is at its best, not one wasted scene even before Hardhome. I even enjoyed Dany, although that might've been because Tyrion was rolling his eyes as much as I was at her speech, oh and lots of Tormund can only ever be good. That random Thenn ain't getting enough love for trying to tackle a White Walker to buy our special Snowflake time while knowing his weapon would be ineffective.

 

[Барбоса]

Isnt it funny that after all this glacial exposition, its all going to come down to a battle with a force that has next to no character development (how the fuck could they) and no discernible motivation/purpose besides the usual "braaaaaaaaaiiiiiinnnsssss...."

Yea, that episode was fuckin' bitchin. Picked the wrong week to not give GOT my 60" to play on.

and next week is episode 9, baby!!

You should be very glad that you are not reading the books then. The show is vastly superior in fleshing out the White Walkers.

I might be exaggerating a little but if I remember correctly readers have not seen a White Walker since Sam killed one. They are suggested to have overrun those who stayed at Hardhome but not seen by a POV character.

And as for their motivation, what else would it be for an aggressive army? Conquest. We even know who the White Walker's leader is in the show (not yet revealed in the books) and the back up literature perhaps adds a more personal drive for conquest; athough I will admit that the conflict relies a lot on symbolism.

I now suspect that one of the main reasons for the show keeping Sam at Castle Black is so that he can identify the leader of the White Walkers from the description given by Jon and Tormund from the books of the library.

Hmm? Care to elaborate

I just think that if the show brings in the likes of Randyll "the non-royal Stannis" Tarly and maybe a Greyjoy or two that that might indeed see the end of the rightful heir to the throne at Winterfell.

"Hardhome" also had a couple of nice nods to the books- Ramsay speaking of A Feast For Crows and one of the wildlings laughing at the idea that the Walkers ride on massive ice spiders.

 

[Miko]

I just think that if the show brings in the likes of Randyll "the non-royal Stannis" Tarly and maybe a Greyjoy or two that that might indeed see the end of the rightful heir to the throne at Winterfell.

Yeah I see what you mean, that's worrying. The only thing against that I can think of is that much is made of Stannis being in Roberts shadow and Tarly having beaten Robert before, that they might clash based on that, not to mention his rivalry with the Greyjoys and his prowess as a Naval commander (book canon has Auranne Waters, formely of Stannis' service, fleeing with the Royal Fleet to parts unknown. Show canon has Stannis' fleet apparently surviving Hardhome) so I can see him plugging on on those grounds for conflicts yet to come, not to mention Dany needs a significant roadblock and I don't see anybody else really providing, but yeah, I would be lying if I wasn't worried about that grouchy, unpleasant man. Its too early for team Dragonstone to bow out.

I did actually think you were talking about the dark brown haired kids mentioned in the casting, whom I imagine would be Brandon and Eddard flashbacks.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

I think I posted this before, but I'm in love with this fan theory for a potential ending.

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/23p48r/the_true_nature_and_purpose_of_the_others_and_the/

 

[Alastor]

I get a lot of people aren't digging this season for their own reasons, but I personally have preferred it over last season to this point. The only thing (besides Sam) I really don't like about this season is the Cersei/Margaery storyline. It's ******ed to think that King's Landing most powerful people could ever be intimidated and bullied by a few religious fanatics. They've had the biggest and baddest army on the show to this point and yet this is what's taking them down? Really?

I think it is a result of them tweaking Cersei's character on the TV show to make her less of an incompetent ruler and also the result of adapting the story to TV. Imagine more outrage from feminists at a show that already hates the show for the sexual content for portraying Cersei as useless. In the books we are reading the scenes from the POV of Cersei and her hubris was a big reason why the Faith Militant got so much power. They downplayed that part on the show and put more emphasis on her desire to get rid of Margaery.

They also didn't put more emphasis on the decline of the quality of the small council and the King's Guard, which was also a result of Cersei's hubris. Nobody on the council was powerful enough or cared enough to break her out. Also remember the crown is in debt to the iron bank, and would probably not be able to fund a long conflict against the fanatics.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Yea, given the portrayal of what ypu guys say vs the show, it seems like the whole faith militant deal has been very, very poorly put across.....especially since even for someone who knows nothing about the books, it seems very haphazardly put together and developed. For instance, the point you make about the Iron Bank completely makes sense, but that entire aspect was given about 47 seconds of dialog a whole season ago.

The entire kings landing and Dorne threads have been real shit shows this year.