Why can't Chris Benoit apply the Sharpshooter correctly?

[Slyfox696]

You need to take into account the following Slyfox: The name of "Scorpion Deathlock" is owned by Sting. They can't use that name; even if it wasn't owned by Sting, why on earth would they call it that when Sting has never been in the WWE and no one has ever had that move referred to as that. That'd be like if WCW called Booker T's "Book End" a "Rock Bottom", wouldn't make much sense there would it? Afterall, WWE's policy has always been to pretend that they are the only wrestling promotion to ever exist.

So, Benoit applies the Death lock, but they call it the Sharpshooter. Makes perfect sense. Kinda like how Cena does an STS but they call it an STF.

Riki Chosu called it a Scorpion Hold, and he was the first to use it.. Why don't they call it a Scorpion Hold? Or Grapevine Boston Crab or Grapevine Crab? Why doesn't he call it the BenoitShooter? Or whatever? Why would he (or the announcers) incorrectly label the move?

It's not an insult on him in any way. Just a real question.

i like how you cut off my line

What line was that? Here is your entire post without the pictures.

clearly different moves?
Theres 3 pix of Bret doing the sharpshooter different.and the only pic of sting doing the deathlock. Notice how with the exception of sting using his right leg Bret and Sting have the opponent on the mat the same way in the same hold?
How are they not the same move only difference being which leg used?
I bet you also believe an RKO,twist of fate and the diamond cutter arent the same move too right?

What was I supposed to notice?

Not to mention, I deal with so many quotes, that I usually just condense to only main points.

that said notice the pic of sting and the first one of bret how they have their opponents legs in the same position .leg behind the other leg ankle to ankle. Only difference is which leg they have their opponent's legs wrapped around.

In the first picture with Luger, Luger has turned his body sideways and is trying to turn out of the Sharpshooter, thus is in the process of escape. My bet is, if you watch the video that Hart doesn't apply the move in this way. I don't know, but I'm guessing. On the other hand, both Sting and Benoit apply it with the two ankles together from the beginning. In addition, they do not use the second hand generally.

As for this topic i m over it. Sly you would argue ,not debate, a black sheep was white.

No, because I would be wrong in that debate. Luckily for me, I don't have to worry about that here.

 

[OCTheEagle]

It's just that when HHH does the spinebuster, JR always says: "OMG, The Arn Anderson Spinebuster". This is wrong cause Arn Anderson did the spinebuster clockwise instead of anti-clockwise.

When Benoit does the 'sharpshooter', the commentators at home can refer to Brert Hart thus making more people at home wonder if Benoit's opponent will tap out.

 

[justinsayne]

Why does it matter?, Benoit does the move fine, even if he doesn't lock it in the exact same way as Bret Hart, you make it sound like he's completely butchering the move, when the only real difference I see is that Benoit uses a different leg than Hart does, it just seems to me that you just want to argue about some stupid pointless crap, and this was the best you could come up with

 

[Slyfox696]

Why does it matter?, Benoit does the move fine, even if he doesn't lock it in the exact same way as Bret Hart, you make it sound like he's completely butchering the move, when the only real difference I see is that Benoit uses a different leg than Hart does, it just seems to me that you just want to argue about some stupid pointless crap, and this was the best you could come up with

There are more differences than just which leg is being used. I've already pointed that out. I don't see how poor execution of a move is "stupid pointless crap". I mean, isn't that one of the criteria that people always say about Cena when he puts on the STFU (thanks xfear for reminding me lol)? That he doesn't apply the STF correctly? Of course, the difference is, the STFU isn't an STF, and he doesn't call it a STF. Benoit, on the other hand, if he really is trying to pull off the Sharpshooter, does not do it correctly.

So, I'm just asking why it is that Chris Benoit doesn't apply the Sharpshooter correctly.

 

[X]

Slyfox what the fuck are you even talking about...they don't call the STFU an STF? What do you think the first three letters of that name is? STF, thats right. They've always referred to it as an STF, always. So why wouldn't someone assume its an STF? That'd be like calling something the Rock BottomU. Would you not assume it was a Rock Bottom? Or if they called it a DDTU, wouldn't you assume it was a form of a DDT?

And Benoit does the move perfectly fine, and I don't understand how you can complain about it. Plus it's not his finisher, so you can't really compare it to people complaining about Cena using the STFU.

I already answered your question---they don't call it anything other then the Sharpshooter because thats what the move has always been known as in the WWE. Period. They would never call it anything else. WWE likes to pretend no other promotion exists outside of theirs and the ones they've bought, so to even allude to a wrestler in another promotion (Sting) would never happen, ever, ever, ever.

You're argument continues to make no sense whatsoever.

 

[Slyfox696]

Slyfox what the fuck are you even talking about...they don't call the STFU an STF? What do you think the first three letters of that name is? STF, thats right. They've always referred to it as an STF, always. So why wouldn't someone assume its an STF? That'd be like calling something the Rock BottomU. Would you not assume it was a Rock Bottom? Or if they called it a DDTU, wouldn't you assume it was a form of a DDT?

Well, it goes back to some history. Back when Brock and Cena were feuding, Cena created the FU finisher, in a mocking counterpart to Brock's F5. FU, of course, stand for Fuck You. So, when Cena used the STS against Angle in the submission match, I guess someone thought it'd be cool to call it the STFU, because FU is already in Cena's repertoire and it just fits. But, regardless, he doesn't call the move the STF.

And Benoit does the move perfectly fine, and I don't understand how you can complain about it. Plus it's not his finisher, so you can't really compare it to people complaining about Cena using the STFU.

You were the one who brought up the comparison. *shrugs* And, Benoit does not do the Sharpshooter fine. He may do the Scorpion Deathlock perfectly fine, but not the Sharpshooter.

You're argument continues to make no sense whatsoever.

There really is no argument. It was a simple question as to why Benoit doesn't apply it correctly. Now that I've proved that he doesn't do the Sharpshooter correctly, we can search out for reasons why. One of which, is because it causes intense strain on the back, and another of which is because the WWE forces their announcers to call it the wrong move. Those are the kind of answers I've been looking for.

 

[PlatynumX420]

Just out of curiousity how many posters that have read this topic believe that benoit doesnt do it properly? How many think that the scorpion death lock/hold and the sharpshooter are 2 completely different moves and one is not a variation of the other?


slyfox i want to see your list of what makes a sharpshooter different from a Scorpion Deathlock/Hold.Do it in a 'how to' or walkthrough for each move and point out key differences.No pictures.

 

[Slyfox696]

slyfox i want to see your list of what makes a sharpshooter different from a Scorpion Deathlock/Hold.Do it in a 'how to' or walkthrough for each move and point out key differences.No pictures.

*Slaps forehead*

I've explained the key differences a multitude of times. Read those for how they are different. You know what? I'll just mentioned them again.

Difference: Sharpshooter - the second leg of the opponent is bent more towards a 90 degree angle, to sit against the thigh of Bret Hart, thus when the first leg is draped over, the second leg rests closer the the back of the knee or the calf of the first leg.

Scorpion - The second leg is brought over to the first leg, not bent so the second is touching the back of the knee or the calf, but rather is touching ankle to ankle with the first leg.

Difference: Sharpshooter - After Bret turns opponent onto their belly, he has his first arm wrapped around the opponents first leg (not the one tucked underneath, but the one that is protruding). However, his second hand is up on the opponents first knee, cranking back on the leg, making it hurt not only the back, but also the opponents second knee which is bent at the awkward angle under the first leg.

Scorpion - While Sting's first arm is wrapped around the legs, the second hand does nothing.

Difference: Sharpshooter - Bret sits all the way down on the Sharpshooter, resulting in his own knees being bent at a 90 degree angle, thus keeping the opponent completely unable to lift himself or straighten his back.

Scorpion - Sting stands straight up, cranking up on the legs, hurting the back, but does not sit down all the way on the move, meaning that the opponent can lift himself off the mat to relieve some of the pressure.



Both moves hurt, and are fine moves. But, they are not the same moves, despite their similarities.

 

[Afro-Ameri-Spawn]

Let me get this straight. We are having THIS in depth a discussion on ONE move? Benoit does the move. They sell it. Period. I mean it aint like anybody really is in the hold completely and does not tap out. So it gets sold. Plain and simple.

 

[Slyfox696]

We are only having such in-depth discussion because people were refusing to admit that Benoit did not correctly perform the Sharpshooter. So, in order to get the answers that I wanted from the beginning, it had to be established that Benoit really did perform the Sharpshooter incorrectly, which I believe I have sufficiently done now.

So, we can get back to the original question, which is why doesn't Chris Benoit apply the Sharpshooter correctly.

 

[JoshK1985]

Let me get this straight. We are having THIS in depth a discussion on ONE move? Benoit does the move. They sell it. Period. I mean it aint like anybody really is in the hold completely and does not tap out. So it gets sold. Plain and simple.

AMEN... I cant get over how long this thread is about a freaking move. Benoit is one of the best wrestlers of our time and were going to sit here and argue if he does a move right or wrong... THAT IS STUPID.. THIS THREAD IS STUPID TO PLEASE LETS END IT... WRESTLING IS ALL ABOUT THE ENTERTAINMENT NOW. IF YOU WANT TO DISSECT MOVES AND SO FOURTH GO WATCH AMATUER WRESTLING BECAUSE APPARENTLY PRO WRESTLING ISN'T FOR YOU!

 

[Insanity_X]

Benoit does the sharpshooter differently to Bret. who cares? the move is called a sharpshooter because that is the name WWF/E fans assosiate with the move. if Benoit gave it a diferent name people would say 'thats a sharpshooter i refuse to call it canadian death lock (or whatever)'.

Also if you're going to complain about how bret's and benoit's sharpshooters are different then you should complain about all of the other moves that are called the same thing but performed differently. take a chokeslam for example, 'taker and Kane perform it differently yet it is still called a chokeslam. the big show performs a very different version of it either falling with them or going to one knee. and do you complain about how mick foleys piledriver is executed differently to every other piledriver?

bottom line, stop bitching and move on.

 

[Slyfox696]

Also if you're going to complain about how bret's and benoit's sharpshooters are different then you should complain about all of the other moves that are called the same thing but performed differently. take a chokeslam for example, 'taker and Kane perform it differently yet it is still called a chokeslam. the big show performs a very different version of it either falling with them or going to one knee. and do you complain about how mick foleys piledriver is executed differently to every other piledriver?

Chokeslam and piledriver are generic names of wrestling moves. The Sharpshooter is not. If say, The Great Khali used The Last Ride powerbomb, wouldn't you complain that he didn't do it right?

bottom line, stop bitching and move on.

Would you be saying that if we were talking about Umaga?


I think the biggest problem here is that someone is daring to challenge Chris Benoit in the ring. I mean, if Bobby Lashley was the one putting on the Sharpshooter, I bet people would be all over him for performing it as poorly as Benoit applies it. I mean, look at the Cena thread all the people who complain that Cena doesn't apply the STF correctly. And the STF is just a generic move, not a specially specific move. And Cena doesn't even use the STF.

So, let's be honest here. If this were someone other than smark favorite Chris Benoit, would some of you people still get so defensive about it? If Chris Masters was the one applying the Sharpshooter, I have money that says people would complain. But, since it's Chris Benoit, we should "stop bitching and move on".

Am I right?

What frustrates me is that in everyone's flat out refusal to accept anything negative about Benoit, this thread has dragged out forever, and has actually received very few responses to the actual question. And, once I proved the Benoit did NOT actually use the Sharpshooter correctly, people complain how how this thread has gone on for to long, and how I should shut up. All I wanted was some explanations.

 

[Insanity_X]

Would you be saying that if we were talking about Umaga?

yes i would. personallly i dont think it really matters whether or not benoit's is as good as bret's sharpshooter. it gets locked in, the opponent sells and they either escape or tap. move on. does it really matter that much to you?

and if we're going to talk about slight differences constituting an entirely different move then eddie gurerro's frog splash shouldnt be called a frog splash. same with RVD's, and Chavo's and everybody else who uses a frog splash. (the original frog splash, as innovated by art barr does not look the same as Eddie's (who uses the move as a tribute to him) or any other wrestler's frog splash)

 

[kieran_devlin]

The Reason i think is because hes not actually allowed to do it properly. Vince once told Brian Kendrick he wasnt allowed to do some cruiserweight moves. I think this is because of risk of injury or the fact that some wrestlers might not be able to take the move because just as some wrestlers cant actually do moves some dont know how have them done to them. Anyway its defo a variation of the Sharpshooter.

 

[xxCM_PUNKxx]

THIS THREAD CAN END AFTER THIS STATEMENT:

Benoit was not applying the sharpshooter, he was applying the scorpion hold/deathlock. So he wasnt doing any move incorrectly

WHO TO BLAME:it was the announcers who called it a sharpshooter, even thought it wasnt, but obviously they cant call it a scorpion death lock.


Slyfox:Stop bitchin about 1 move,ur wrong, get over it.

 

[Lono]

Konnan showed Bret Hart how to do the move when Bret Hart was told by creative to use a finisher and was given a list of moves he could use, he asked the guys in the back "Does anyone know how to apply the scorpion deathlock?" and Konnan (during his short stint in WWF as Max Moon) was the guy who said he did and showed Bret the move.

As for the differences in the Sharpshooter, Benoit does a move more similar to the orginal scorpian deathlock used by Sting and others, Bret's is a slight variation, but Bret himself once said in one of his columns on his website that he wishes he could have the chance to show the guys in WWE (The Rock, Benoit, and maybe even Lance Storm at the time were all using the move) how to apply the move correctly. So Bret himself feels that they are not applying it right... though I believe Bret himself modified the move to look more real, as the orginal scorpian deathlock is similar to Benoits and others (minus the Rock's whose sharpshooter was very sloopy"

 

[Lono]

Also Sting does not own the name Scorpion Deathlock, the move was invented by Riki Chōshū, who called it the Sasori-gatame (Scorpion hold), so named because the move bends the wrestler's legs over his back in a shape that resembles a scorpion's tail. Gentleman Chris Adams used it under the name Scorpion Deathlock long before Sting ever used the hold

 

[DTroy]

I'm just going to use Y2J's Walls of Jericho as an example. When he first came to the WWF he used the Lion Tamer. They banned it do to the risk of serious Injury, the same for almost every other submission. Trust, Benoit could put the move on just as good as Hart, he's just protecting his opponent for injury. It's a lot better than the Rock's version though.

 

[Slyfox696]

and if we're going to talk about slight differences constituting an entirely different move then eddie gurerro's frog splash shouldnt be called a frog splash. same with RVD's, and Chavo's and everybody else who uses a frog splash. (the original frog splash, as innovated by art barr does not look the same as Eddie's (who uses the move as a tribute to him) or any other wrestler's frog splash)

I can live with that. *shrugs* If they are doing the move wrong, it should be noted. At least RVD renamed his the Five Star Frog Splash.

The Reason i think is because hes not actually allowed to do it properly. Vince once told Brian Kendrick he wasnt allowed to do some cruiserweight moves. I think this is because of risk of injury or the fact that some wrestlers might not be able to take the move because just as some wrestlers cant actually do moves some dont know how have them done to them. Anyway its defo a variation of the Sharpshooter.

Thank you for actually responding to the original thread question. I appreciate it.

THIS THREAD CAN END AFTER THIS STATEMENT:

Benoit was not applying the sharpshooter, he was applying the scorpion hold/deathlock. So he wasnt doing any move incorrectly

WHO TO BLAME:it was the announcers who called it a sharpshooter, even thought it wasnt, but obviously they cant call it a scorpion death lock.


Slyfox:Stop bitchin about 1 move,ur wrong, get over it.

How am I wrong? You just agreed with everything I have said. *shrugs*

As for the differences in the Sharpshooter, Benoit does a move more similar to the orginal scorpian deathlock used by Sting and others, Bret's is a slight variation, but Bret himself once said in one of his columns on his website that he wishes he could have the chance to show the guys in WWE (The Rock, Benoit, and maybe even Lance Storm at the time were all using the move) how to apply the move correctly. So Bret himself feels that they are not applying it right... though I believe Bret himself modified the move to look more real, as the orginal scorpian deathlock is similar to Benoits and others (minus the Rock's whose sharpshooter was very sloopy"

I remember this too. It was this writing that made me start looking for people who were supposedly doing it wrong, and how they were doing it wrong. I never really understood what these other guys were doing wrong, but I watched some old matches of Hart, and I finally started to get it.

Then, I saw Benoit do it on Monday, so I thought I'd ask the question.

 

[Afro-Ameri-Spawn]

We are only having such in-depth discussion because people were refusing to admit that Benoit did not correctly perform the Sharpshooter. So, in order to get the answers that I wanted from the beginning, it had to be established that Benoit really did perform the Sharpshooter incorrectly, which I believe I have sufficiently done now.

So, we can get back to the original question, which is why doesn't Chris Benoit apply the Sharpshooter correctly.

I can settle this question once and for all. The answer to your question is that Benoit does NOT do the move incorrectly, he merely does HIS own version of the move.

 

[Insanity_X]

but Bret himself once said in one of his columns on his website that he wishes he could have the chance to show the guys in WWE how to apply the move correctly. So Bret himself feels that they are not applying it right... though I believe Bret himself modified the move to look more real, as the orginal scorpian deathlock is similar to Benoits and others (minus the Rock's whose sharpshooter was very sloopy"

I know that he said it but at the moment i cant find the collumn that he said it in but i'm fairly sure that he also said tha he feels that chris is about the only one who does it right. (and even if he doesnt he heaps praise upon him in other collumns anyway)

but seriously does it matter that benoit does a varitaion upon hart's sharpshooter? it might look different to harts, it might hurt less (in reality) than harts (which may be the reason for this variation being used). but at the end of the day either Benoit thinks that his version is better than hart's for whatever reason or that vinnie mac feels that benoit should apply it differently for any reason. i.e. the decision was made by someone who knows one hell of a lot more about the move, the risks assosiated with said move and the buisness as a whole than you do.

in conclusion shut up, the decision has been made (by somebody who knows alot more than you do), stop bitching (it will make no difference, even if benoit is bored and decides to visit the forums of wrestlezone.com and reads this thread) so MOVE ON.

 

[Slyfox696]

but seriously does it matter that benoit does a varitaion upon hart's sharpshooter? it might look different to harts, it might hurt less (in reality) than harts (which may be the reason for this variation being used). but at the end of the day either Benoit thinks that his version is better than hart's for whatever reason or that vinnie mac feels that benoit should apply it differently for any reason. i.e. the decision was made by someone who knows one hell of a lot more about the move, the risks assosiated with said move and the buisness as a whole than you do.

the decision has been made (by somebody who knows alot more than you do), stop bitching (it will make no difference, even if benoit is bored and decides to visit the forums of wrestlezone.com and reads this thread) so MOVE ON.

You should go back and read the actual first post of the thread. Seriously.

in conclusion shut up

No? *shrugs*


My goodness, I truly feel everyone is so up in arms, because I'm talking negatively about Chris Benoit. Face it, he does not do the Sharpshooter correctly, yet it is labeled the Sharpshooter, even by a guy like Jim Ross, who probably knows the difference between the two. The original question is WHY does Benoit do it incorrectly. Please, focus people.

Your wrong because you are saying that Benoit is doing the sharpshooter wrong, which he isnt. BECAUSE HE ISNT DOING THE SHARPSHOOTER. he is doing the scorpion hold/deathlock.

Hey, welcome to the thread. Try reading the last seven pages.

 

[X]

We've answered your question like five times already Slyfox, you're just not satisified with that answer. Benoit applies the move correctly as it is, a Scorpion Death Lock, why isn't it labeled that you ask? Because they would never call anything the Scorpion Death Lock or a Stinger Splash or anything about Sting has never been involved with the WWE. Bret Hart had it called the Sharpshooter, and so thats the name that the WWE will forever use, just like you've seen people do a Stone Cold Stunner before under various names in the old days, anytime you see someone (Like Eugene) use it it is referred to as a Stunner. What aren't you getting here mate, it's relatively simple. Booker T does a Rock Bottom as his finisher, yet they call it the Book End. Its just a name man, jesus christ, he applies the move perfectly fine and if he wasn't applying it correctly you can be rest assured that Vince would tell him.

 

[Insanity_X]

ok. i looked back at the first post (i've read every post in this spam hole) and i will admit that Hart's sharpshooter is better to benoit's.

You also have a point that benoit's sharpshooter has several key differences to hart's sharpshooter. Hart leans further back, wraps the opponents legs around his left leg while benoit uses his right and leans further back. however this doesn't mean benoit's sharpshooter is right and benoit's is wrong, all it means is that benoit executes the move differently. there is no right or wrong way to execute a wrestling move, it is simply down to preference. if the opponent has his legs wrapped around one of the 'aggresors' legs and the opponent leans back like you do in a boston crab then it is a sharpshooter, regardless of name, slight differences in the way the move is locked in or any other differences. just as a convertable car is a cabriolet, despite whatever differences two convertable cars may have they are still cabriolets. in my opinion it is the same with sharpshooters (and indeed any other wrestling move). the only reason that benoit's sharpshooter is called a sharpshooter is because that is he name that everybody knows it by. if, for example mars bars had their name changed people would object untill they accepted the new name. This is probably the reason that benoit's sharpshooter is called a sharpshooter, to avoid the fan's backlash. however this is merely my opinion and you, of course are welcome to yours.